As unbiased as can be please? Help needed.

Started 3 months ago | Discussions
OP Focus Lock Forum Member • Posts: 64
Re: As unbiased as can be please? Help needed.

Agree with you. I have stated above that I feel, rightly or wrongly that I need my kit to allow me sports, birds/ wildlife as well as landscape and travel photography.

the a7iii works well in some aspects but then I’m left with Nikon d500 and lenses for wildlife. I also don’t have a 16-35 say for landscapes on the Sony but I do for Nikon but on APS-c that would be more like a 24-50 lens! I’m also wishing to have the benefits of FF sensor and to trim my catalogue of cameras and lenses.

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PrebenR Veteran Member • Posts: 4,146
Re: As unbiased as can be please? Help needed.

Focus Lock wrote:

Agree with you. I have stated above that I feel, rightly or wrongly that I need my kit to allow me sports, birds/ wildlife as well as landscape and travel photography.

the a7iii works well in some aspects but then I’m left with Nikon d500 and lenses for wildlife. I also don’t have a 16-35 say for landscapes on the Sony but I do for Nikon but on APS-c that would be more like a 24-50 lens! I’m also wishing to have the benefits of FF sensor and to trim my catalogue of cameras and lenses.

I'll start with these two questions

What is Sony giving you that Nikon isn't?

Why can't you take wildlife photos with Sony?

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Don't blame the camera
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BurpgunChimp Contributing Member • Posts: 602
Re: As unbiased as can be please? Help needed.
2

Focus Lock wrote:

i am now faced with having my Nikon d500 and 200-500 lens which is great for sports and wildlife. Very fast and accurate.

The 200-500 has been great really on the d500.

my other thought is to get rid of the d500 and replace with the d850 but then I’m still on two systems?!

Stay in Sony camp for FF. Keep the D500 for sports and action. The 100-400mm GM alone costs more than the D500 with the 200-500, which is a really good system. Actually really good is an understatement. It's excellent. Unless you are buying an a9 with GM super-telephoto glass you will likely be disappointed. If you like the D500's buffer, even the a9 will disappoint. The D850 also cost quite a few beans. Save your money, sell what you don't see yourself using, and buy some nice lenses below 300mm for the Sony.

OP Focus Lock Forum Member • Posts: 64
Re: As unbiased as can be please? Help needed.
1

The Sony gives me FF sensor, high iso performance, dynamic range in a smaller size compared with my d500. I could use Sony for wildlife if I bought the equivalent lens and an A9 as indicated by someone here on the thread. But that’s more money again!

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LenRivers Senior Member • Posts: 1,121
Re: As unbiased as can be please? Help needed.
5

All I can say is that no new camera or lens will make your photography better with some exception

Your current camera just can not do a task you need it to do and the current manufacture has no solutions so then you switch.  You dont need eye af if you are a landscape or macro shooter for example

You just want a smaller kit, but careful what lenses you use you may not be saving any money, size or weight and the camera bag size may stay the same.  Then I say look at crop sensor solutions

you just do not use your current kit the same and want to scale back with smaller lenses by given up F 2.8 zooms and larger F 1.4 primes etc.

**

What I am saying and I did sell my Nikon D750 and D850 to come to the A73 for my needs, and I feel what I did works great and I do not miss the D850 that I really thought was the last camera I would own, I felt it was that good.

In the end one says I will deal with the big camera because it does what I need

**

Last, I generally only want one interchangeable lens system, I dont want different flashes, or batteries to keep track of and I want all my gear if needed to talk to each other with any tether accessories I may use.

***

You can only use one camera and one lens at a time and no one will ever ask you want camera you used or what lens or what ISO unless they are maybe another photographer.

The image looks good or it does not and even then it is subjective.

**

My view is pick one and stick to it unless you have a reason and there is no way at least I think no one one every would carry all you have at the same time,

Remember this is not a marriage just a means to an end!  Its just gear.

joger
joger Veteran Member • Posts: 5,545
native & OEM is better than adapted and 3rd party
2

Focus Lock wrote:

Thanks Phil. I guess I’ll have to take a financial hit one way or another when I sell my unused gear but you’re right; it’ll be better not to have it sat there anyway.

Buy the brand name lenses and be happy with it. My GM 135 is blistering fast in AF and my GM 85 is a joy using for portraiture and the G 12-24 is just a marvel in landscape photography.

All top notch Sony lenses I bought are top notch when using them. I stopped 3rd party lenses long ago for lenses where AF is important.

You hardly can beat the A7R III with respect to portrait situations and in sports the A9 is a marvel to use. I guess the nest A7R incarnation will get even better AF to close the gap.

DSLRs are long term fading away - maybe even mid term.

In case you enjoy living on an island this won't matter much to you and I acted that way in the past with large format sheet film for a decade - was a joy being the only one in my area

Today I enjoy the lens virility to choose from and the upcoming toys for further enjoyment.

Nikon is doing not so well financially and Canon might get in trouble soon too with the declining market.

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joger
joger Veteran Member • Posts: 5,545
Re: Less is More

SilvanBromide wrote:

Focus Lock wrote:

Thanks Phil. I guess I’ll have to take a financial hit one way or another when I sell my unused gear but you’re right; it’ll be better not to have it sat there anyway.

Not as big a hit as you take if you keep it and don't use it. ; )

excellent observation

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A7R III - one camera to rule them all
ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'
“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." Douglas Adams

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DenImage Senior Member • Posts: 2,588
Re: native & OEM is better than adapted and 3rd party
2

"native & OEM is better than adapted and 3rd party"

:

I disagree,

My "3rd party" Tamron FE 28-75mm is faultless, and performs no worse than Sony's good quality native lenses. Zeiss lenses like the Batis range (also "3rd party") are also just as good, so I'm not sure why you're saying 3rd party lenses aren't as good?

Den

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joger
joger Veteran Member • Posts: 5,545
Re: native & OEM is better than adapted and 3rd party
1

DenImage wrote:

"native & OEM is better than adapted and 3rd party"

:

I disagree,

My "3rd party" Tamron FE 28-75mm is faultless, and performs no worse than Sony's good quality native lenses. Zeiss lenses like the Batis range (also "3rd party") are also just as good, so I'm not sure why you're saying 3rd party lenses aren't as good?

Den

I have to admit that I don't look at zooms at all

I will bookmark this thread and get back once I see someone complaining about the AF compatibility once Sony issued a new firmware for existing or new bodies in a few months from now

The likelihood that brand name products are more compatible is much higher than any 3rd party product - no matter how carefully they work together with the OEM.

Optically I am sure that the Tammy is a nice zoom - yet it is not much useful for me at the long end with only f/2.8 and not very wide at the short end being only 28 mm FOV - not my cup of tea but in case this is o.k. for you and the Eye-AF works fine with the current setup just enjoy! (and never upgrade any firmware - never change a running system!)

I look at those topics from a system approach.

MFing is utterly important for landscape and architecture. In this respect the Batis lenses failed miserably in my tests. The Loxias are MF by design and there is hardly anything to criticize.

I rarely need AF but when I need it I have to rely 100 % on it. The Samyang 35 f/1.4 AF was hunting a lot and the hit rate went down the drain. With my ZA 50 and my GM 85 and my GM 135 the hit rate is near to perfection for Eye-AF wide open and head shots

In case yo can live with the risk of failure in situations where you're payed for the results this is of course a high saving potential - but one job might pay for the difference in price

Sony's resent lens introductions were all top notch and IMHO almost a steal.

Interestingly the G 200-600 seems to be optically also a marvel being much cheaper than I thought. I am not sure what the shortcomings might be but it might be simply a try to win over the wildlife shooters with a bargain offer

(btw - one of the two zooms I [will] own)

Since I don't use slow f/2.8 medium focal length zoom I have no interest in the Tamron 28-75 - though I've owned an old version of it for Nikon and I was unpleasantly surprised by the optical quality 15 years ago. No critique on the current one - many praise it.

Just my 2 cent - the GM primes from Sony are just gorgeous IMHO.

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A7R III - one camera to rule them all
ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'
“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." Douglas Adams

 joger's gear list:joger's gear list
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PrebenR Veteran Member • Posts: 4,146
Re: As unbiased as can be please? Help needed.

Focus Lock wrote:

The Sony gives me FF sensor, high iso performance, dynamic range in a smaller size compared with my d500. I could use Sony for wildlife if I bought the equivalent lens and an A9 as indicated by someone here on the thread. But that’s more money again!

But you talked about D850. Wouldn't all the a7iii gives against a D850 be smaller size and poorer battery life?

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DenImage Senior Member • Posts: 2,588
Re: native & OEM is better than adapted and 3rd party
2

"I will bookmark this thread and get back once I see someone complaining about the AF compatibility once Sony issued a new firmware for existing or new bodies in a few months from now"

:

Really???

I've updated the firmware on my camera bodies and the Tamron worked without any issues after the update. You're just scaremongering.

Your broad sweeping statement that "native & OEM is better than adapted and 3rd party" may apply to some brands/models, but not all. So just retract, then move on.

Den

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joger
joger Veteran Member • Posts: 5,545
Re: native & OEM is better than adapted and 3rd party
1

DenImage wrote:

"I will bookmark this thread and get back once I see someone complaining about the AF compatibility once Sony issued a new firmware for existing or new bodies in a few months from now"

:

Really???

I've updated the firmware on my camera bodies and the Tamron worked without any issues after the update. You're just scaremongering.

Your broad sweeping statement that "native & OEM is better than adapted and 3rd party" may apply to some brands/models, but not all. So just retract, then move on.

Den

all about opinions and personal experiences - I am in the electronics industry for three decades in different functions plus my photo activities and one thing stayed over time constant - almost never (I surely find one occasion in case I search long enough in my memory) I had an ongoing incompatibility with OEM equipment - over time all of them were removed by the OEM - in case there were some at all.

I had dozens of really painful incompatibilities with 3rd party gear and lots of work and most annoying personal stress when things did not work as expected.

I avoid wherever possible 3rd party tools, batteries and/or lenses.

The Ming from the Batis lenses I've tested was not satisfying enough - especially compare to the GM lenses and the Samyang 35 I've had was not usable for my work - sub par to anything I've ever tested - hunting, missing Eye-AF and unreliable.

I am not experimenting - I know that there are many out that happily trade in perceived price savings for a bit of inconvenience. Please do not get annoyed by my opinion - just go on.

In case you're like me a perfectionist this is hurting a lot - even a color scheme on the casing and/or a missing feature like the programmable button on the lens or the missing aperture ring is annoying to me.

In case you want the utmost real world compatibility go for OEM gear.

BTW - I have programmed the button on the lens for switching between Animal and Eye AF - I guess many have different ideas how to use this button - for me this is an excellent usage and a lens without such a button is not ticking the important boxes for me.

The lens selection of primes at Sony is outstanding - especially the GM 135 is a joy to use!

(I'd never trade in my GM 135 for e.g. a 24-105 - my G12-24 is sharper than my top notch primes - that's a very good argument to use a zoom that replaces basically 2..3 primes - but in case we'd get a GM 14 and/or 15 f/1.X I'd happily replace it)

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A7R III - one camera to rule them all
ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'
“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." Douglas Adams

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DenImage Senior Member • Posts: 2,588
Re: native & OEM is better than adapted and 3rd party
6

Do you ever admit you're wrong Joger???

I doubt it.

Your broad sweeping statement "native & OEM is better than adapted and 3rd party" is not accurate. There are 3rd party lenses that are just as good (if not better) as native models.

Den

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OP Focus Lock Forum Member • Posts: 64
Re: As unbiased as can be please? Help needed.

PrebenR wrote:

Focus Lock wrote:

The Sony gives me FF sensor, high iso performance, dynamic range in a smaller size compared with my d500. I could use Sony for wildlife if I bought the equivalent lens and an A9 as indicated by someone here on the thread. But that’s more money again!

But you talked about D850. Wouldn't all the a7iii gives against a D850 be smaller size and poorer battery life?

yes I have because I’ve also said that I now think resolution would be a useful thing for landscapes, studio and cropping. The d850 was mentioned because o have all these Nikon lenses and a FF high res camera that fits is the d850. Or I’d have to sell all those lenses and go for the smaller form factor of mirrorless.

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Philnw2 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,325
Re: native & OEM is better than adapted and 3rd party

DenImage wrote:

Do you ever admit you're wrong Joger???

I doubt it.

Your broad sweeping statement "native & OEM is better than adapted and 3rd party" is not accurate. There are 3rd party lenses that are just as good (if not better) as native models.

Den

I agree.  This idea of perfectionism in camera equipment is flawed as many have found out.  One may have bought the perfect kit of lenses, but tomorrow the Board of Directors may pull the funding for any more camera bodies.  Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Sony and others have all pulled the funding on specific lines of photographic equipment.

Manufacturing companies would have one believe that if your camera cannot photograph racing cars at 200mph, it can't be any good - how silly is that.  The world is awash with photographic equipment which is often far better than most applications deserve.

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Phil B

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joger
joger Veteran Member • Posts: 5,545
native & OEM IS for me better than adapted and 3rd party
2

DenImage wrote:

Do you ever admit you're wrong Joger???

I doubt it.

Your broad sweeping statement "native & OEM is better than adapted and 3rd party" is not accurate. There are 3rd party lenses that are just as good (if not better) as native models.

Den

  • no programmable buttons on any 3rd party FE lens
  • no aperture ring on any 3rd party AF lens
  • comparable weak MFing on Batis and Samyang AF lenses - did not check the Tamron and Sigma offering to date - I would assume they might be similar in precision
  • no AF/MF switch on many 3rd party lenses (not all - I know)

That's enough incompatibility for my taste

You may personally need/want or not these buttons and dials.

  • Samyang is rather poor in AF performance
  • Sigma has only DSLR AF designs with built in MC-11 adapter

That's again enough incompatibility for my taste despite too heavy lens weights.

Again - be happy in case you don't perceive these facts as annoying.

For me these are unbearable - the Sony lenses I own are unparalleled at any other brand at this point in time.

The Zeiss Loxia line up is maybe the best MF experience on Sony at this point in time and they are as good as it gets. But they have no AF - not for all situations feasible.

You may or may not perceive these facts as annoying - I do.

This is not suggesting that others perceive it the same way - nevertheless it is important to mention IMHO.

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__________________________________
A7R III - one camera to rule them all
ISO 9000 definition of quality: 'Degree to which a set of inherent characteristic fulfills requirements'
I am the classic “Windows by Day, Mac by Night user'
“The horizon of many people is a circle with zero radius which they call their point of view.” Albert Einstein
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." Douglas Adams

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OP Focus Lock Forum Member • Posts: 64
Re: As unbiased as can be please? Help needed.

So I can see that some of us are having discussion regarding lenses etc. Which is to some degree pertinent but am I right in thinking that the D850 is being viewed as not so golden due to perhaps not handling wider apertures than F2.8? And I wonder anyway if it’s market is really for shooting wider open anyway?

What id like to know is so I run Nikon and Sony side by side with the issues that can have or do I jump full depth into Sony but then I’d need optics for landscape and wildlife. I need a body that does some speed and more resolution! Do I wait for a9ii? Or maybe Nikon has something?

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SilvanBromide Senior Member • Posts: 3,861
Re: As unbiased as can be please? Help needed.
2

Focus Lock wrote:

So I can see that some of us are having discussion regarding lenses etc. Which is to some degree pertinent but am I right in thinking that the D850 is being viewed as not so golden due to perhaps not handling wider apertures than F2.8? And I wonder anyway if it’s market is really for shooting wider open anyway?

I think that's overstating the case a bit. The D850 is an excellent camera and the quibbles in question are comparatively minor points. They are twofold:

i) focus accuracy doesn't improve at apertures wider than f2.8 (but in most situations, accuracy at f2.8 will suffice, so most users won't experience this as "not handling" wider apertures - though it's likely that something like the a9 and possibly the a7iii might give slightly better AF accuracy at <f2.8 apertures), and

ii) like all dSLRs, micro focus adjustment is needed to get pinpoint precision, and at wide apertures any slight mis-adjustment will be more noticeable, plus slight variations in the mirror position can also result in AF errors that might be visible when the DOF is shallowest. Again, most users won't experience this as "not handling" wider apertures, but the pinpoint focus precision at <f2.8 apertures might be less than an a9 or a7iii and the micro focus adjustment routine is a PIA.

IOW, if the D850 has appeal in all other respects, the above issues are probably not enough to be a deal breaker. Unless razor sharp AF precision at ~f1.4 is the (or a) main thing you care about.

What id like to know is so I run Nikon and Sony side by side with the issues that can have or do I jump full depth into Sony but then I’d need optics for landscape and wildlife. I need a body that does some speed and more resolution!

Personally, I would prefer to jump all-in with one system rather than maintaining two or more concurrently, basically because I've done it (≥2 systems) before and I'm pretty much over it. ; )

If you're leaning towards consolidating on one system, based on want to do and what's available right now, that probably means Sony. Unless you decide you need the fastest available burst and AF speeds, the a7Riii might do what you want. It's not in the same league WRT fps as the a9, but it's still faster (i.e. 10fps) than most dSLRs. I find the AF tracking sufficient for BIF (better than older dSLRs I've used, but I haven't directly compared it to current dSLRs such as the D850).

Do I wait for a9ii? Or maybe Nikon has something?

Who can say?! It may be a while before Nikon has anything that matches the current spec of the a9. By then, Sony will probably be further ahead, whether with an a9ii or something else.

If you're disposed to wait, there will always be "something better" around the corner, so you may end up waiting forever. Meanwhile shooting opportunities go by. My advice is to get/use what's available now, and consider upgrading if and when there's a compelling reason to.

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MILC man Senior Member • Posts: 3,370
Re: native & OEM IS for me better than adapted and 3rd party
3

joger wrote:

DenImage wrote:

Do you ever admit you're wrong Joger???

I doubt it.

Your broad sweeping statement "native & OEM is better than adapted and 3rd party" is not accurate. There are 3rd party lenses that are just as good (if not better) as native models.

Den

  • no programmable buttons on any 3rd party FE lens

I don't need that functionality with all lenses, so it's personal preference.

  • no aperture ring on any 3rd party AF lens

why do you want to duplicate functionality that the dial aperture control on the body already has? that isn't an advantage, it's personal preference.

  • comparable weak MFing on Batis and Samyang AF lenses - did not check the Tamron and Sigma offering to date - I would assume they might be similar in precision

not important for people who don't use mf.

  • no AF/MF switch on many 3rd party lenses (not all - I know)

yes, it's personal preference again.

  • Samyang is rather poor in AF performance

Samyang is:
1) much cheaper
2) Samyang 35/2.8 is sharper than the sony fe35/2.8: https://www.lenstip.com/518.4-Lens_review-Samyang_AF_35_mm_f_2.8_FE_Image_resolution.html

sony pricing on the fe35/2.8 and the fe55 is too expensive for what those lenses offer.

  • Sigma has only DSLR AF designs with built in MC-11 adapter

I picked up the sigma ef 14-24/2.8 because it was $900 shipped brand new, and it has a rear filter holder... can't get either those things in the equivalent sony brand lens, and it's sharp to the corners wide open, at 19mm, with the 14mm end being better than the 24mm end.

I've shot sports with both mount versions of the sigma art 135, at 13-14fps af-c, they both rocked, with xlnt af on the a9... I don't see any penalty for "dslr af" there, because it's much better performance than you can get on any dslr.

and although the art 135 is obviously not in the same af class as the fe135, it's much cheaper.

these things can be a tradeoff, not always a hard win for sony.

nebulla Senior Member • Posts: 1,411
Re: native & OEM is better than adapted and 3rd party
3

DenImage wrote:

Do you ever admit you're wrong Joger???

I doubt it.

Your broad sweeping statement "native & OEM is better than adapted and 3rd party" is not accurate. There are 3rd party lenses that are just as good (if not better) as native models.

Den

Den, I totally agree with you. I have seen statement like this too often which is pure rubbish in most cases. No one would disagree that a native lens would not outperform an adapted lens, but in reality, not by any large margin IMO. I have been using my Canon lenses on the Sony A7iii since I purchased it with hardly any loss of performance or IQ. My Canon 17-40L, Canon 70-200 L 85mm F1.8 with the Sigma MC-11 works without a hitch, with great IQ from all these lenses. I also have the Sony 24-105mm,which I like , but nothing that I would really miss with my Canon lenses if I did not have it.

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