Pentax 26mp APSC in the works

Started 3 months ago | Discussions
Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 10,144
Re: Nonsense

xmeda wrote:

Sensor is just one part of final image. DNR processor that recalculates image and deals with noise is the second most important thing.

Sorry, but without good data to process it's all futile.

Imagine that during 1/500s photo the machine will be able to capture 20 subframes, recalculate them, kill noise by repeated pattern control and use iterated subframes to gain "light" signal in shadow areas where needed and omit "light" signal in bright areas. Then even APS-C sensor might be able to provide something like 40mpix clean images with 25EV dynamic range on seemingly ISO25600 image.

A bit too overoptimistic, perhaps?

Computational techniques do improve the image quality - our Pentax cameras are already capable of Pixel Shift; however there are limits to consider. Your 20 subframes would be exposed for 1/10,000s - is there enough light for that?

Then, sometimes even 1/500s total exposure time isn't fast enough. Sorry, but this isn't going to make FF unnecessary

So guys, sensors are not the only critical part like they used to be in 2004-2012.. nowdays almost all sensors in current cameras have invariant ISO. If you push ISO100 image in PP, the result will be same as setting any ISO in camera.

Except for the likes of dual gain sensors.

Alex

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miles green
miles green Veteran Member • Posts: 7,156
Re: Pentax 26mp APSC in the works

Merci Mistral! 

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Miles Green
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miles green
miles green Veteran Member • Posts: 7,156
Re: Nonsense

awaldram wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Zvonimir Tosic wrote:

Plakanina wrote:

A new APSC with 26mp in 2020 not a K3 replacement that camera is history this will be NEW flagship

if it were true, 26MP resolution would require fractions of a pixel to work out.

the maximum practical resolution of 25,958,400 pixels, that Fujifilm camera achieves, falls over 40,000 pixels below the mark and barely 1.9 MP over the resolution of a 24MP sensor. When distributed geometrically, it adds about 3% increase horizontally and vertically. Negligible.

the question follows: is this "26MP" sensor just the same old 24MP but with a fraction of a mm wider surface, which any crop lens covers anyway?

As expected, your post doesn't make any sense.

The 26MP sensor - assumed to be the Sony IMX571 - is obviously unrelated to the old 24MP. The list of differences is extensive, including the higher number of pixels, the fact that it's a back-illuminated sensor, high readout speed, 16-bit readout (16-bit AD/C included). It has about 26.78MP total pixels, and 26.02 active pixels though the latter I guess can be customized a bit.

And its APS-C sized.

Alex

So besides

1 lower noise

2 higher bandwidth

3 faster

4 more pixels

just what is the difference .....lmfao

As mistral posted above:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62797389

4K video.

And a number of other things i'm not familiar with....

seriously though I don't think is a bad thing similar pixel density but all the modern design improvements.

My own feeling is that 20-30Mp is the sweet spot for aps-C offering High DR great low light and decent pixel density .

As technology moves forward the improve power handling and all the above benefits would provide plenty of incentive for a new camera.

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miles green
miles green Veteran Member • Posts: 7,156
Re: Pentax 26mp APSC in the works

Massao wrote:

Labe wrote:

Full range here lol

Oh dear me...painful to see ...LOL

Thanks, this is great.

I'm in the market for a neon pink with yellow grip, with matching lens. 4th column, 5th row. Perfect smile-generating machine for portraits.

And we all secretly want a star-trooper white one...

Leica has licensed the 3rd column color - safari green, perfect match for a silver cron.

But seriously, the new camera will have a BSI sensor with 4K video capability. And most probably a touchscreen like the GRiii. Maybe some kind of hybrid AF? and AF for video?

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Massao Senior Member • Posts: 1,404
Re: Pentax 26mp APSC in the works

miles green wrote:

Massao wrote:

Labe wrote:

Full range here lol

Oh dear me...painful to see ...LOL

But seriously, the new camera will have a BSI sensor with 4K video capability. And most probably a touchscreen like the GRiii. Maybe some kind of hybrid AF? and AF for video?

That would be fantastic. I’m hoping that Pentax release a PLM version of a normal focal length lens…like the Sony 16-50 f/2.8 SSM. That’s what I need the most. A faster and quieter AF for everyday use.

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 10,144
Re: Pentax 26mp APSC in the works
1

miles green wrote:

Massao wrote:

Labe wrote:

Full range here lol

Oh dear me...painful to see ...LOL

Thanks, this is great.

I'm in the market for a neon pink with yellow grip, with matching lens. 4th column, 5th row. Perfect smile-generating machine for portraits.

And we all secretly want a star-trooper white one...

Lol.

But, you're not far of the mark... there was this guy who bought a camera in the colors of his favorite football team, and the photog shooting kids portraits with a non-threatening, colorful camera...

The cost is all logistics. Why not? We're not wearing all black...

Alex

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bob5050 Contributing Member • Posts: 944
Re: Pentax 26mp APSC in the works

Massao wrote:

miles green wrote:

Massao wrote:

That would be fantastic. I’m hoping that Pentax release a PLM version of a normal focal length lens…like the Sony 16-50 f/2.8 SSM. That’s what I need the most. A faster and quieter AF for everyday use.

Or an update to the venerable 18-135mm--still my default walk-around. If they packed an updated HD KAF4 18-135mm as a kit with the new APS-C body, I'd certainly go for it.

For a faster/quieter f/2.8, there's the Sigma 17-50mm.

bob5050

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Massao Senior Member • Posts: 1,404
Re: Pentax 26mp APSC in the works

bob5050 wrote:

Massao wrote:

miles green wrote:

Massao wrote:

That would be fantastic. I’m hoping that Pentax release a PLM version of a normal focal length lens…like the Sony 16-50 f/2.8 SSM. That’s what I need the most. A faster and quieter AF for everyday use.

Or an update to the venerable 18-135mm

Yes, I would certainly buy a sharper PLM version of 18-135mm. If they come up with a constant f/4 version then I'm willing to pay a premium for that 😊

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still my default walk-around. If they packed an updated HD KAF4 18-135mm as a kit with the new APS-C body, I'd certainly go for it.

For a faster/quieter f/2.8, there's the Sigma 17-50mm.

Hmmm, thanks.. does the Sigma 17-50mm f/2.8 focuses faster than Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8? It would if Sigma is without screw-driven AF, is it?

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Massao
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miles green
miles green Veteran Member • Posts: 7,156
Re: Pentax 26mp APSC in the works
1

Massao wrote:

miles green wrote:

Massao wrote:

Labe wrote:

Full range here lol

Oh dear me...painful to see ...LOL

But seriously, the new camera will have a BSI sensor with 4K video capability. And most probably a touchscreen like the GRiii. Maybe some kind of hybrid AF? and AF for video?

That would be fantastic. I’m hoping that Pentax release a PLM version of a normal focal length lens…like the Sony 16-50 f/2.8 SSM. That’s what I need the most. A faster and quieter AF for everyday use.

I think a new 16-50/2.8 is in the plans, was it in the roadmap, or just rumors, but i think it's the next aps-c lens after the 11-18. I hope I'm not wrong about this.

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miles green
miles green Veteran Member • Posts: 7,156
Re: Pentax 26mp APSC in the works

DougOB wrote:

bob5050 wrote:

DougOB wrote:

5r82 wrote:

They better come with K-1 III with 50 Mpx in 2020. In crop mode this camera would give 33 Mpx and that is already more than 26 Mpx. So, Pentaxian having both full frame and APS-C lenses would be happy...

Except that I do want a camera that big and heavy...

But 5r82 still has a point. No one with a reasonable number of DA lenses and on the fence about 'moving up' is going to buy a FF camera that then gives them less resolution than they already have. A crop mode of > 24-26mpx might encourage more current APS-C owners to upsize.

Me, I'm still holding out for the K3.next.

I would say "might" is the operative word here. Have we every done a survey on why APS users have not moved to FF? cost? size? Or conversely what would make them move.

Doug

Now that I'm all FF with the K1ii, including lenses, i can tell you what would push me to add aps-c, in order of importance.

a. Video. And in particular, AF during video, with face detection and tracking. (just keep my kids in focus will you?)

b. speed and range: smaller pixels, more fps, much bigger buffer, and whatever AF improvements are possible

c. size - DA limited lenses a must.

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bob5050 Contributing Member • Posts: 944
Re: Pentax 26mp APSC in the works

Massao wrote:

.. does the Sigma 17-50mm f/2.8 focuses faster than Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8? It would if Sigma is without screw-driven AF, is it?

I don't know the Tamron, so no opinion there at all. But the Sigma is an HSM focus--it's way faster/quieter than any of my screw-driven lenses. According to Sigma it's "a ring-type ultrasonic motor designed to provide quick and silent focusing." It does.

Pro: it's sure, fast, and quiet on my K-3. I useit as my walk-around evening lens since it's a bit faster than the 18-135mm. Also good for museums, churches, dimmer interiors.

Con: It's a bit big (77mm filter ring), but then modern lenses seem to be heading that direction...

Quibble: the zoom in-out twist is opposite that of the Pentax 18-135. Had to get used to that. <g>

Over all--no regrets about getting it at all. If I can get to it I'll post a couple of example shots later this evening.

bob5050

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Massao Senior Member • Posts: 1,404
Re: Pentax 26mp APSC in the works

bob5050 wrote:

Massao wrote:

.. does the Sigma 17-50mm f/2.8 focuses faster than Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8? It would if Sigma is without screw-driven AF, is it?

I don't know the Tamron, so no opinion there at all. But the Sigma is an HSM focus--it's way faster/quieter than any of my screw-driven lenses. According to Sigma it's "a ring-type ultrasonic motor designed to provide quick and silent focusing." It does.

Pro: it's sure, fast, and quiet on my K-3. I useit as my walk-around evening lens since it's a bit faster than the 18-135mm. Also good for museums, churches, dimmer interiors.

Con: It's a bit big (77mm filter ring), but then modern lenses seem to be heading that direction...

Quibble: the zoom in-out twist is opposite that of the Pentax 18-135. Had to get used to that. <g>

Over all--no regrets about getting it at all. If I can get to it I'll post a couple of example shots later this evening.

bob5050

Many thanks. Ok

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Massao
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Massao Senior Member • Posts: 1,404
Re: Pentax 26mp APSC in the works
1

miles green wrote:

DougOB wrote:

bob5050 wrote:

DougOB wrote:

5r82 wrote:

They better come with K-1 III with 50 Mpx in 2020. In crop mode this camera would give 33 Mpx and that is already more than 26 Mpx. So, Pentaxian having both full frame and APS-C lenses would be happy...

Except that I do want a camera that big and heavy...

But 5r82 still has a point. No one with a reasonable number of DA lenses and on the fence about 'moving up' is going to buy a FF camera that then gives them less resolution than they already have. A crop mode of > 24-26mpx might encourage more current APS-C owners to upsize.

Me, I'm still holding out for the K3.next.

I would say "might" is the operative word here. Have we every done a survey on why APS users have not moved to FF? cost? size? Or conversely what would make them move.

Doug

Now that I'm all FF with the K1ii, including lenses, i can tell you what would push me to add aps-c, in order of importance.

a. Video. And in particular, AF during video, with face detection and tracking. (just keep my kids in focus will you?)

b. speed and range: smaller pixels, more fps, much bigger buffer, and whatever AF improvements are possible

c. size - DA limited lenses a must.

Indeed, these reasons are enough for any FF DSLR user to keep a secondary APS-C DSLR system alongside. I hope the new Pentax APS-C DSLR is well-equipped to do all these things, but it’s the first one that seems tricky with the current lens line-up (assuming it has all the AF features in camera). For video work, essentially you need PLM (VCM/SSM/STM, etc.; it’s the same thing with different names) with near-silent autofocus. For a better video work, we also need fixed aperture throughout zoom. For best video work, we also need optical image stabilization + electronic zoom. Ideally, something like Sony 18-105 F4 G OSS PZ with all the features, or the Sony DT 16-50mm F2.8 SSM without the electronic zoom and optical stabilization.

Here’s an example footage of 16-50mm f/2.8 SSM:

https://youtu.be/NloptA6kyw8

None of this is new technology anymore, but whether Ricoh/Pentax thinks this is a priority is a different debate altogether

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bob5050 Contributing Member • Posts: 944
Re: Pentax 26mp APSC in the works
2

Massao wrote:

bob5050 wrote:

If I can get to it I'll post a couple of example shots later this evening.

Many thanks. Ok

Here's a set, all with the Sigma 17-50mm taken wide open (f/2.8) at a variety of subject distances.

bob5050

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Massao Senior Member • Posts: 1,404
Re: Pentax 26mp APSC in the works

bob5050 wrote:

Massao wrote:

bob5050 wrote:

If I can get to it I'll post a couple of example shots later this evening.

Many thanks. Ok

Here's a set, all with the Sigma 17-50mm taken wide open (f/2.8) at a variety of subject distances.

bob5050

Many thanks:-) The problem with Tamron is that it doesn't lock on focus instantly. Goes close first (with the usual drill machine sound, albeit not as loud as on Limited lenses:-), and then goes incrementally with very tiny movements back and forth to finally lock focus. All of that resulting in a pretty low hit-rate for moving subjects (can take half a second or longer to lock on focus). Basically, by the time it focuses, the subject may have moved ..LOL How is Sigma? does this focusing behaviour sound familiar? or it locks on focus snappily?

I’m pretty sure its the lens more than the camera because my Sony camera (a58) has just 3 cross-type focusing points compared to 9 on K-30, but it focuses instantly without “thinking” with the 16-50 SSM lens.

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bob5050 Contributing Member • Posts: 944
Re: Pentax 26mp APSC in the works
1

Massao wrote:

How is Sigma? does this focusing behaviour sound familiar? or it locks on focus snappily?

It's pretty much point and shoot--no noticable hunting or indecision. However--

I’m pretty sure its the lens more than the camera

I'm way less sure about that. I got this lens after I had moved to the K-3, so I don't know directly about how it would perform on the K-30. But I can say I had several other lenses that were nearly unusable in the dark on the K-30 with focus-hunting, but that behaved entirely differently and more surely on the K-3. If the Tamron hunts all the time, then I'd be more convinced it's the lens. If it's only in low-light, it could very well be the camera. For low-light shooting, moving to the K-3 after the K-30 was a revelation.

Completely different venue--this is a really under-visited museum in Prague --well worth your time if you like medieval (1200-1600) sculpture and religious art.

I'd probably brighten up the color intensity a bit on the last three--museum lighting can often be a bit flat. But like the previous set these are all SOOC.

bob5050

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Massao Senior Member • Posts: 1,404
Re: Pentax 26mp APSC in the works

bob5050 wrote:

Massao wrote:

How is Sigma? does this focusing behaviour sound familiar? or it locks on focus snappily?

It's pretty much point and shoot--no noticable hunting or indecision.

Excellent 😊

However--

I’m pretty sure its the lens more than the camera

I'm way less sure about that. I got this lens after I had moved to the K-3, so I don't know directly about how it would perform on the K-30. But I can say I had several other lenses that were nearly unusable in the dark on the K-30 with focus-hunting, but that behaved entirely differently and more surely on the K-3. If the Tamron hunts all the time, then I'd be more convinced it's the lens. If it's only in low-light, it could very well be the camera. For low-light shooting, moving to the K-3 after the K-30 was a revelation.

Hmm good points. Many thanks; Ok, I’ll test this further: good light vs low light.

Completely different venue--this is a really under-visited museum in Prague --well worth your time if you like medieval (1200-1600) sculpture and religious art.

I'd probably brighten up the color intensity a bit on the last three--museum lighting can often be a bit flat. But like the previous set these are all SOOC.

bob5050

Nice history through sculptures. I haven’t been to Prague (I know, strange..lol), but certainly on my list.

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Zvonimir Tosic
Zvonimir Tosic Senior Member • Posts: 2,947
Re: Nonsense
3

Alex Sarbu wrote:

the question follows: is this "26MP" sensor just the same old 24MP but with a fraction of a mm wider surface, which any crop lens covers anyway?

As expected, your post doesn't make any sense.

Thanks for the rescue.

The 26MP sensor - assumed to be the Sony IMX571 - is obviously unrelated to the old 24MP.

They are the first cousins, from the father's side.

The list of differences is extensive,

Does it mean we can count them on the fingers of one hand, or three hands?

including the higher number of pixels,

A profoundly different number.

the fact that it's a back-illuminated sensor,

What's on the back hardly influences what's on the front. My original note was not about that.

high readout speed,

There are 24MP sensors with high readout speeds too. To which one you are referring to?

16-bit readout (16-bit AD/C included).

That has nothing to do with the pixel count. My 5MP camera has 16-bit colour too.

And its APS-C sized.

Yeah, the previous must have been a tad shorter. Or larger? Confusing!

Alex

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 10,144
Re: Nonsense
1

Zvonimir Tosic wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

The 26MP sensor - assumed to be the Sony IMX571 - is obviously unrelated to the old 24MP.

They are the first cousins, from the father's side.

Sensors don't breed, I'm afraid - so they don't have mothers and fathers, less alone cousins. They're not alive, but manufactured products.

They don't need to be potty trained either, which is fortunate as this would otherwise make a mess in our camera bags.

The list of differences is extensive,

Does it mean we can count them on the fingers of one hand, or three hands?

Are numbers too hard to figure out?

the fact that it's a back-illuminated sensor,

What's on the back hardly influences what's on the front. My original note was not about that.

So you don't know what a back-illuminated sensor is, either.

high readout speed,

There are 24MP sensors with high readout speeds too. To which one you are referring to?

Mainly about the K-3 sensor, which I've made clear in my post.

16-bit readout (16-bit AD/C included).

That has nothing to do with the pixel count. My 5MP camera has 16-bit colour too.

Oh? And what camera is that?

Maybe... you don't know what 16-bit readout is?

And its APS-C sized.

Yeah, the previous must have been a tad shorter. Or larger? Confusing!

To you.

Alex

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awaldram
awaldram Forum Pro • Posts: 13,270
Re: Nonsense

miles green wrote:

awaldram wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Zvonimir Tosic wrote:

Plakanina wrote:

A new APSC with 26mp in 2020 not a K3 replacement that camera is history this will be NEW flagship

if it were true, 26MP resolution would require fractions of a pixel to work out.

the maximum practical resolution of 25,958,400 pixels, that Fujifilm camera achieves, falls over 40,000 pixels below the mark and barely 1.9 MP over the resolution of a 24MP sensor. When distributed geometrically, it adds about 3% increase horizontally and vertically. Negligible.

the question follows: is this "26MP" sensor just the same old 24MP but with a fraction of a mm wider surface, which any crop lens covers anyway?

As expected, your post doesn't make any sense.

The 26MP sensor - assumed to be the Sony IMX571 - is obviously unrelated to the old 24MP. The list of differences is extensive, including the higher number of pixels, the fact that it's a back-illuminated sensor, high readout speed, 16-bit readout (16-bit AD/C included). It has about 26.78MP total pixels, and 26.02 active pixels though the latter I guess can be customized a bit.

And its APS-C sized.

Alex

So besides

1 lower noise

2 higher bandwidth

3 faster

4 more pixels

just what is the difference .....lmfao

As mistral posted above:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62797389

4K video.

thats a function of higher bandwidth

And a number of other things i'm not familiar with....

My list was tongue in cheek hence the lmfao - the points I raised as improved would/do allow better then D500 specifications hence my mirth and leg pulling.

But a sensor capability does not necessarily deliver a better camera it only a part.

seriously though I don't think is a bad thing similar pixel density but all the modern design improvements.

My own feeling is that 20-30Mp is the sweet spot for aps-C offering High DR great low light and decent pixel density .

As technology moves forward the improve power handling and all the above benefits would provide plenty of incentive for a new camera.

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