Retardation and minutia.

[markE59102]

Judging by the response I got from both you and Gage (and by the
way, I do appreciate the responses, because I'm in no way an expert
on these things

I hope you don't think I am! I'm just offering my opinion, which isn't necessarily right.

and appreciate the feedback) it seems it really
boils down to a matter of objective opinion. Individual taste.

I completely agree. I think that's part of the art of photography, how each of us interpret an image in our own way.

I don't think it's a matter of taking an image from "inusable" to
usable.

I think it can be a matter.

It's a matter of adjusting each to personal
preference.....at least when it comes to this sharpening and
contrast area. As far as throwing out image data/detail by using
the Normal contrast setting in the E20, I don't see it. I think
that's getting really nitpicky.

Maybe so. But what if your exposure is off just enough to lose detail on a particularily important part of the image?

Half the time I admit I do find myself running alot of images
through an Unsharp Mask at 1.0 radius at around 70-150 Amount. If
setting the in-camera sharpness level to Low helps the outcome of
this filter achieve a better result I will try it again more,
though in the past I have not seen it. As far as contrast goes, I
find myself actually very rarely needing to run a contrast tweak in
Photoshop, and to tell the truth I don't find that particular tweak
very useful or desireable anyway. I have actually found that the
Brightness/Contrast command in Photoshop HURTS images more than
helps them....it's really a rather worthless endeavor.

I never use the brightness/contrast control. I think you're better off doing this in curves or even levels, aren't you?

Using Auto
Contrast is really no better, along with using Auto ANYTHING in PS!!

Of course not. Why would you have PS if you weren't a control freak?

The best way to adjust contrast is simply making a decent Levels
command tweak. But of course, I find that most of us do that
anyway (or Curves) so why worry about contrast?

Exactly! So doesn't it make sense to turn it down to low on your camera?

--
markE
pbase supporter

• Oly E-20, LiPo, TCON300, TCON-14B, WCON, FL-40, Wacom Graphire Canine Stunner II, Epson PS 820,

'The camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.'
-Dorothea Lange

-Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/marke/natural_world

 

[Kevin Trowbridge]

I have some studio experience, but I still have to learn a lot about lighting. I use my E10 for weddings and onsite portraits. I would like opinions on what economical setupwould be good for these applications. I could either off camera flash(s) or compact stobes externally synced probably by a Peanut slave with manual flash metering. A similar thread started about 8hrs ago with DianeB on 'Help for off camera flash with E10'.

My real question is that when you are shooting at a ceremany or an event and cannot flash meter for each exposure, how does one use stobes or externally synced flashes to improve lighting? Or are those the situations when you do use on camera flash

I assisted an old timer photographer and with me holding his an external metz flash with a radio transmitter to sync, he automatically new the aperature needed and called it out to me throughout a wedding ceremony, while shooting with a medium format without hand held metering. Was it just that he had done it hundreds of times and instinctivly knew or is there a way of shooting with multiple off camera flashes with an E10 without flash metering?
Any tips would be greatly appreciated to get me out of the dark.
Thanks,
Kevin

My biggest problem is I move in cycles and I stick with one method
just long enough to forget the previous. To remember the "multiply
method" I'll have to play around a little to figure it out again. I
even created an action for it but have since built a new computer
and all my custom actions were lost. DOH!

For your workflow. Get those sharpen and contrast settings to their
lowest. If you are doing ANY PS work, save those adjustments for
PS. The in camera settings should only be used for straight from
camera shots. You lose image information if you dont have them set
to their lowest and you cant get that info back.

As for your flash method, why do you like to bounce? Are you aware
that using the built in flash will give you catch lights but will
also flatten the lighting? Bounce is good to illuminate the rest of
the area, but I HATE onboard flash unless absolutely necessary (run
and gun candids).

Anyway, I'll get to those tutorials - thanks for your interest.

-GageFX

GageFx, when you were describing your levels, custom curves,
icorrect pro & multipy meathods you seem much more ahead of the
game than myself. Please illuminate us to your experience, trials
and errors. I have learnt so much in the last few weeks on this
forum, it sometimes seems like I have been shooting blind until now.

My basic workflow is normally shooting in SHQ 1:2.7, normal
sharpening, sometimes low contrast when using full power flash or
under bright sunlight, but ussually normal contrast to keep
saturation up. When flash is needed I am a bounce junky, often
including pop-up fill for catch-light. First thing I do in PS7 is
levels, either draging in wp/bp or setting it with eyedroppers. I
like draging those wp/bp in separate R,G & B modes for more colour
control. If the image has exposure problems or limited latitude I
go to curves, which I am not that proficient in yet and set a
mid-point and ussually set a quarter-point in either the highlight
or shadow end depending on, which needs more. These are slight
adjustments, but I just learned a little bit more control from
DavidM and one of your links to an Apple.com PS tutorial. Sometimes
I do cropping if necessary before levels and curves as to only
adjust the part of the image I will eventually be using. My next
step is cloning and touchups, then I selectivly paint back an
unsharp mask and/or a gausian blur using a layer mask function.
Done, but never finished! There is no absolute right or wrong.

I have used raw a bit recently, although I have a lot more
experimentation to do before I can recommend anything. I need more
tips on using Bibble's Oly conversion, PS7 plugins are easy enough,
but unreasonably slow when converting 1 by 1. The really awsome
thing that Bibble provides is a curves function integrated with a
historam so you can see what you're doing to the levels when
adjusting the curves. Wow! Why has PS7 not done that yet it would
make Levels obsolete, workflow faster, and control and
comprehention of what's happening when using curves much easier.
How does anyone like Orf Suite? Three different Oly RAW conversion
programs; which one to use?

 

[David M.]

"Exactly! So doesn't it make sense to turn it down to low on your camera? "> >

Well, actually, no, not to me. If the camera's setting at Normal provides an acceptable level of contrast then I won't bother with it in PS, which half the time this is the case for me.

I don't own PS because I'm a control freak. I bought it because it provides a neverending venue for creativity. Coupled with all the outstanding plug-ins I've got for it over time like KPT, KPT Effects and various actions, it gives me so many options for creativity and special effects. I don't consider creativity being control freakish. Quite the opposite actually!! I also bought Painter 7 for it's wonderful effects, not because I want to get every little nitpicky detail in my images absolutely perfect in regards to exposure control (if I was a total control freak, I'd be doing headspins at what Painter does to some of my images....on the contrary, I enjoy it).

I know what you mean now though and I still apreciate the advice and recommendations big time. I hope I don't sound like I'm refuting any of it.

Judging by the response I got from both you and Gage (and by the
way, I do appreciate the responses, because I'm in no way an expert
on these things

I hope you don't think I am! I'm just offering my opinion, which
isn't necessarily right.

and appreciate the feedback) it seems it really
boils down to a matter of objective opinion. Individual taste.

I completely agree. I think that's part of the art of photography,
how each of us interpret an image in our own way.

I don't think it's a matter of taking an image from "inusable" to
usable.

I think it can be a matter.

It's a matter of adjusting each to personal
preference.....at least when it comes to this sharpening and
contrast area. As far as throwing out image data/detail by using
the Normal contrast setting in the E20, I don't see it. I think
that's getting really nitpicky.

Maybe so. But what if your exposure is off just enough to lose
detail on a particularily important part of the image?

Half the time I admit I do find myself running alot of images
through an Unsharp Mask at 1.0 radius at around 70-150 Amount. If
setting the in-camera sharpness level to Low helps the outcome of
this filter achieve a better result I will try it again more,
though in the past I have not seen it. As far as contrast goes, I
find myself actually very rarely needing to run a contrast tweak in
Photoshop, and to tell the truth I don't find that particular tweak
very useful or desireable anyway. I have actually found that the
Brightness/Contrast command in Photoshop HURTS images more than
helps them....it's really a rather worthless endeavor.

I never use the brightness/contrast control. I think you're better
off doing this in curves or even levels, aren't you?

Using Auto
Contrast is really no better, along with using Auto ANYTHING in PS!!

Of course not. Why would you have PS if you weren't a control freak?

The best way to adjust contrast is simply making a decent Levels
command tweak. But of course, I find that most of us do that
anyway (or Curves) so why worry about contrast?

Exactly! So doesn't it make sense to turn it down to low on your
camera?

--
markE
pbase supporter

• Oly E-20, LiPo, TCON300, TCON-14B, WCON, FL-40, Wacom Graphire

Canine Stunner II, Epson PS 820,

'The camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without
a camera.'
-Dorothea Lange

-Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/marke/natural_world

--
(DC's)/ Oly E20, Kodak DC4800's, (DV)/ Canon GL1, ZR25,(35mm)/ Minolta HTsi+
PBase supporter

 

[David M.]

Great questions. I'd be interested to see the replies, if any, to this myself.

I don't use off cam flashes so I can't be of much help. I do use lighting and try to do my best with ambient light sources, but strobes and synced flashes are'nt something I've any experience with.

My biggest problem is I move in cycles and I stick with one method
just long enough to forget the previous. To remember the "multiply
method" I'll have to play around a little to figure it out again. I
even created an action for it but have since built a new computer
and all my custom actions were lost. DOH!

For your workflow. Get those sharpen and contrast settings to their
lowest. If you are doing ANY PS work, save those adjustments for
PS. The in camera settings should only be used for straight from
camera shots. You lose image information if you dont have them set
to their lowest and you cant get that info back.

As for your flash method, why do you like to bounce? Are you aware
that using the built in flash will give you catch lights but will
also flatten the lighting? Bounce is good to illuminate the rest of
the area, but I HATE onboard flash unless absolutely necessary (run
and gun candids).

Anyway, I'll get to those tutorials - thanks for your interest.

-GageFX

GageFx, when you were describing your levels, custom curves,
icorrect pro & multipy meathods you seem much more ahead of the
game than myself. Please illuminate us to your experience, trials
and errors. I have learnt so much in the last few weeks on this
forum, it sometimes seems like I have been shooting blind until now.

My basic workflow is normally shooting in SHQ 1:2.7, normal
sharpening, sometimes low contrast when using full power flash or
under bright sunlight, but ussually normal contrast to keep
saturation up. When flash is needed I am a bounce junky, often
including pop-up fill for catch-light. First thing I do in PS7 is
levels, either draging in wp/bp or setting it with eyedroppers. I
like draging those wp/bp in separate R,G & B modes for more colour
control. If the image has exposure problems or limited latitude I
go to curves, which I am not that proficient in yet and set a
mid-point and ussually set a quarter-point in either the highlight
or shadow end depending on, which needs more. These are slight
adjustments, but I just learned a little bit more control from
DavidM and one of your links to an Apple.com PS tutorial. Sometimes
I do cropping if necessary before levels and curves as to only
adjust the part of the image I will eventually be using. My next
step is cloning and touchups, then I selectivly paint back an
unsharp mask and/or a gausian blur using a layer mask function.
Done, but never finished! There is no absolute right or wrong.

I have used raw a bit recently, although I have a lot more
experimentation to do before I can recommend anything. I need more
tips on using Bibble's Oly conversion, PS7 plugins are easy enough,
but unreasonably slow when converting 1 by 1. The really awsome
thing that Bibble provides is a curves function integrated with a
historam so you can see what you're doing to the levels when
adjusting the curves. Wow! Why has PS7 not done that yet it would
make Levels obsolete, workflow faster, and control and
comprehention of what's happening when using curves much easier.
How does anyone like Orf Suite? Three different Oly RAW conversion
programs; which one to use?

--
(DC's)/ Oly E20, Kodak DC4800's, (DV)/ Canon GL1, ZR25,(35mm)/ Minolta HTsi+
PBase supporter

 

[David Hughes124436]

I assisted an old timer photographer and with me holding his an
external metz flash with a radio transmitter to sync, he
automatically new the aperature needed and called it out to me
throughout a wedding ceremony, while shooting with a medium format
without hand held metering. Was it just that he had done it
hundreds of times and instinctivly knew or is there a way of
shooting with multiple off camera flashes with an E10 without flash
metering?

"Yes" when you had to use hand held light meters and twiddle things round to the needle and so on you got to know the settings after a while.

That, IMHO, is one of the problems with automatic everything. Nobody knows the settings being used or what they mean and then they worry about it afterwards and try and get what they wanted using PS and so on. Best to think before you press the shuttle, IMHO.

(Warning: this is not a popular opinion.)

 

[David Hughes124436]

Lawrence

I think you ought to keep things simple where kids are concerned then you can catch them as they are and as things happen. And this isn't going to happen in front of the camera on a spot chalked on the floor!

Have you tried simple bounce flash with the flashhead tilted a little towards them to give an eye highlight? Or just plain old fashioned bounce flash?

As for rules of composition; it's useful to learn and try them but let them point a way forward for you rather than get you turning out clichés by the dozen. For every rule of composition I can point to an advocate of it who never went any further forward and to someone who set out to break the rule and succeeded. To use a comparison of yours, it's like engineers with degrees who know the right way to do everything and pass exams but who can't cope in a hole in a field in the mud and rain...

So look at guidance and rules but don't get taken in too much by them.

Have fun, David

 

[GageFX133521]

I assisted an old timer photographer and with me holding his an
external metz flash with a radio transmitter to sync, he
automatically new the aperature needed and called it out to me
throughout a wedding ceremony, while shooting with a medium format
without hand held metering. Was it just that he had done it
hundreds of times and instinctivly knew or is there a way of
shooting with multiple off camera flashes with an E10 without flash
metering?

I gotta run, but I'll get back to you later. The simple answer here is, yes. It's less instinct and more experience, though. I've been shooting for 18 years, 12 semi pro, 4 pro, I've never even touched a light meter and I'll hit correct exposure 95% of the time.

More later.

-GageFX

 

[markE59102]

"Exactly! So doesn't it make sense to turn it down to low on your
camera? "> >

Well, actually, no, not to me. If the camera's setting at Normal
provides an acceptable level of contrast then I won't bother with
it in PS, which half the time this is the case for me.

If you can control (there's that word again) your lighting so that all your shots will never require an adjustment, that's great. But I'm not always able to do that while shooting wildlife. Sometimes an animal might suddenly move into an area where the light changes, and a normal contrast setting could render lost detail by blowing out highlights in an important area of the image. Whereas a low setting might save me that detail, and possibly save the image (making it usable ).

I don't own PS because I'm a control freak. I bought it because it
provides a neverending venue for creativity.

But that creativity is only possible if you have the control. And the more control you have, the more freedom you have to release that creativity without constraint.

Coupled with all the
outstanding plug-ins I've got for it over time like KPT, KPT
Effects and various actions, it gives me so many options for
creativity and special effects.

Does the word "control" leave a bad taste in people's mouths these days?

David, with all due respect, I think you've just shown that you LOVE control, otherwise why would you be using all these options for it?

I don't consider creativity being
control freakish. Quite the opposite actually!!

If YOU control the manifestation of your creativity, then it is freedom. More freedom comes through more (of your) control.

I know what you mean now though and I still apreciate the advice
and recommendations big time. I hope I don't sound like I'm
refuting any of it.

I appreciate the dialog very much. Maybe we are saying the same thing, but through different filters. ;-)

--
markE
pbase supporter

• Oly E-20, LiPo, TCON300, TCON-14B, WCON, FL-40, Wacom Graphire Canine Stunner II, Epson PS 820,

'The camera is an instrument that teaches people how to see without a camera.'
-Dorothea Lange

-Gallery: http://www.pbase.com/marke/natural_world

 

[A E Hansen]

I miss Jaja and crew.

-- A E Hansen

 

[Lawrence Keeney]

David,

I inderstand what you are saying about kids. However, I see some great protraits of children being made in a studio, with probably no more eqiupment than I have.

I have read very many articles on posing and lighting. I understand everything as I am reading it, but when I try to put it into practice, the photos are no better than a good snapshot.

I just can't put my finger on the problem. Here is one example:

http://www3.photosig.com/viewphoto.php?id=243504

I have shown this before.

I used two lights and followed the suggested 4:1 ratio lighting, but as someone commented, it looks like a school picture. This is typical of the results I have been getting. I've tried outdoors with natural lighting with flash fill, etc. and the results are all about the same.

I'm lookiing for help. I'm having fun, but I am frustrated too. I think I need someone to hold my hand.

--
Lawrence

Lawrence

I think you ought to keep things simple where kids are concerned
then you can catch them as they are and as things happen. And this
isn't going to happen in front of the camera on a spot chalked on
the floor!

Have you tried simple bounce flash with the flashhead tilted a
little towards them to give an eye highlight? Or just plain old
fashioned bounce flash?

As for rules of composition; it's useful to learn and try them but
let them point a way forward for you rather than get you turning
out clichés by the dozen. For every rule of composition I can point
to an advocate of it who never went any further forward and to
someone who set out to break the rule and succeeded. To use a
comparison of yours, it's like engineers with degrees who know the
right way to do everything and pass exams but who can't cope in a
hole in a field in the mud and rain...

So look at guidance and rules but don't get taken in too much by them.

Have fun, David

 

[GageFX133521]

I think we all need a beer to straighten out our arguments. Some of us need two.

-GageFX

blah blah blahblah blah

 

[GageFX133521]

Lawrence, I see you're in Nevada. What part? Is it possible for you to make it to the SoCal Oly SLR get together? I assure you we can have this straightened out in well under 30 minutes. You just need to SEE it. It all makes sense once you see it.

-GageFX

I have read very many articles on posing and lighting. I understand
everything as I am reading it, but when I try to put it into
practice, the photos are no better than a good snapshot.

 

[GageFX133521]

David, while I dont completely disagree with what you have said, I'm curious if you have any photos you can share in which you can demonstrate successfully breaking the rules. I've quickly glanced over your post history and I see alot of tech talk but I couldnt find any photos. Just curious. I understand concepts better wehn someone can demonstrate what they are saying by showing an example.

Thanks,

-GageFX

Lawrence

I think you ought to keep things simple where kids are concerned
then you can catch them as they are and as things happen. And this
isn't going to happen in front of the camera on a spot chalked on
the floor!

Have you tried simple bounce flash with the flashhead tilted a
little towards them to give an eye highlight? Or just plain old
fashioned bounce flash?

As for rules of composition; it's useful to learn and try them but
let them point a way forward for you rather than get you turning
out clichés by the dozen. For every rule of composition I can point
to an advocate of it who never went any further forward and to
someone who set out to break the rule and succeeded. To use a
comparison of yours, it's like engineers with degrees who know the
right way to do everything and pass exams but who can't cope in a
hole in a field in the mud and rain...

So look at guidance and rules but don't get taken in too much by them.

Have fun, David

 

[Lawrence Keeney]

I think so...
Have you set a date and time yet?

--
Lawrence

-GageFX

I have read very many articles on posing and lighting. I understand
everything as I am reading it, but when I try to put it into
practice, the photos are no better than a good snapshot.

 

[GageFX133521]

I just started a new post to determine a good day - a Saturday or Sunday. From there we'll find a weekend that worls for most of us. I could just SET a day and time but I might be the only one who shows up. I just might be anyway.

I'm sorry. I just checked the old thread and saw your name. You also sent an email. That's good. I haven't committed too much mental energy to it yet as I have only recieved emails from two people. I'll put out another rquest for emails and get it all together. Busy, busy, busy. Anyway, I know have you committed to memory.

As for time, that will be the question after I get answers for day. I'm open for the whole darn day. I like to do things BIG. I realize others might not be up for that and I would prefer that there aren't people just coming in and out all day. If people only want to stay an hour, I'd prefer everyone to be there the same hour.

Anyway, sorry for the confusion.

-GageFX

I think so...
Have you set a date and time yet?

--
Lawrence

 

[Lawrence Keeney]

OK, I'll follow your other post. I'm pretty flexable except for helping with the BMX track. Hopefully your day won't fall on a big race day.

--
Lawrence

I'm sorry. I just checked the old thread and saw your name. You
also sent an email. That's good. I haven't committed too much
mental energy to it yet as I have only recieved emails from two
people. I'll put out another rquest for emails and get it all
together. Busy, busy, busy. Anyway, I know have you committed to
memory.

As for time, that will be the question after I get answers for day.
I'm open for the whole darn day. I like to do things BIG. I realize
others might not be up for that and I would prefer that there
aren't people just coming in and out all day. If people only want
to stay an hour, I'd prefer everyone to be there the same hour.

Anyway, sorry for the confusion.

-GageFX

I think so...
Have you set a date and time yet?

--
Lawrence

 

[David Hughes124436]

Thanks,

-GageFX

Lawrence

I think you ought to keep things simple where kids are concerned
then you can catch them as they are and as things happen. And this
isn't going to happen in front of the camera on a spot chalked on
the floor!

Have you tried simple bounce flash with the flashhead tilted a
little towards them to give an eye highlight? Or just plain old
fashioned bounce flash?

As for rules of composition; it's useful to learn and try them but
let them point a way forward for you rather than get you turning
out clichés by the dozen. For every rule of composition I can point
to an advocate of it who never went any further forward and to
someone who set out to break the rule and succeeded. To use a
comparison of yours, it's like engineers with degrees who know the
right way to do everything and pass exams but who can't cope in a
hole in a field in the mud and rain...

So look at guidance and rules but don't get taken in too much by them.

Have fun, David

I'm worried: am I really technical? I'm certain I've never mention the Scheimphlug relationship any where, which is mildly technical and ignored these days, but have just tried to counter balance the "do it my way" trends all over the forum. Speaking of that, photographs usually waste space bandwidth on the forum and usually can be boiled down to "I like it - well I don't" discussions.

In any case, I thought most people knew the pictures and/or photo's that broke all the rules, upset the establishment and started a new trend which then got taken over and worked to death by the establishment until the next rebel came along. ("Mr and Mrs Andrews" & "The Bar at the Moulin Rouge" are good examples...)

As for my own, the technical/profitable ones (EG "Note the position of the main trigger sear in the trigger unit before the anti-recoil mechanism is activated.") would hardly illustrate any point I was making being shot to order in weird circumstances where none of us had much say in things.

Sorry and all that: I still think it's best to know the history and main themes in composition but to use them in your own way. Pictures end up looking like school photographs because they are done using the same mass production technique; to revert to Lawrence's question. Better to let kids be themselves and doing whatever they like doing. I don't think formal portraits work until the subject has a few worry lines on his/her face. Unless you want a mug shot of Number 543678 when arrested...

Hope this doesn't sound rude: I am smiling in a friendly way as I type it. "Have fun" was the important bit in my post.

 

[David Hughes124436]

Lawrence,

Saw this after lunch: http://www.theflashcentre.com it loads last of all but click on "Guides" and look at the top one as a pdf.

Or did you see it in the "Studio Lighting and the E-10/20" thread?

Regards, David

 

[Lawrence Keeney]

David,

Thanks for the link. I found this document somewhere before, it think on a different site. I printed it out and keep it as a reference. I think this is the best guide I have seen.

I just saw the "Studio Lighting and the E-10/20" thread and will open that one next.

--
Lawrence

Lawrence,

Saw this after lunch: http://www.theflashcentre.com it loads last of all
but click on "Guides" and look at the top one as a pdf.

Or did you see it in the "Studio Lighting and the E-10/20" thread?

Regards, David

 

[artorius]

Hey Gage.

I'm sure glad I had such a crappy 21 day shoot in Mexico. I come back to check out the forum and I find a war going on. What did you do? I read this entire thread and still don't know anything new. And when did Jukka become a target? It's like reading a scandle mag in line at the grocery store. I don't like you, so I am going to flame everything you say! Same ol' stuff. Maybe I should have taken the laptop after all, so I wouldn't have catch up. ;-]

I don't understand what all the fuss is about, except some un-named individuals are blatently jealous of such perfection in the making. No joke. I think that their self-esteem level is so low, that anyone with smarts that gives an opinion becomes "Forum Fodder", for lack of better words. Maybe I will have to suffer for a week in Las Vegas next month as some sort of sacrifice to the Oly forum FEW.

Just my view.

--
Artorius
Respect!