DPReview.com is closing April 10th - Find out more

Focus versus Rail stacking Poll

Started Jun 11, 2019 | Polls
xpatUSA
xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 22,994
Focus versus Rail stacking Poll

Hello, visiting from the Sigma camera forum:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62770654

Asking for a quick poll as to which is "best": adjusting the focus or adjusting the camera-subject distance. Hoping not to cause any battles, just interested in a consensus based on the poll results. Please vote according to what you believe, not necessarily according to what you do; by that I mean that some of use might use the focus method while believing that all the trouble of using a rail or moving the subject is "better".

 xpatUSA's gear list:xpatUSA's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX1 Sigma SD9 Panasonic Lumix DC-G9 Panasonic Leica DG Macro-Elmarit 45mm F2.8 ASPH OIS Sigma 17-50mm F2.8 EX DC OS HSM +11 more
POLL
Focusing
53.3% 8  votes
Changing relative distance
46.7% 7  votes
  Show results
deanimator Contributing Member • Posts: 719
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll

I use microscope objectives, so I don't have a choice.  I HAVE to use a focus rail, in my case a Wemacro.

xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 22,994
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll

deanimator wrote:

I use microscope objectives, so I don't have a choice. I HAVE to use a focus rail, in my case a Wemacro.

Thanks, I wasn't familiar with that genre. I should have made it clearer that I'm talking about simple objects like flowers, bugs, small artifacts, etc.

-- hide signature --

Ted

 xpatUSA's gear list:xpatUSA's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX1 Sigma SD9 Panasonic Lumix DC-G9 Panasonic Leica DG Macro-Elmarit 45mm F2.8 ASPH OIS Sigma 17-50mm F2.8 EX DC OS HSM +11 more
gordonpritchard Veteran Member • Posts: 5,102
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll

It’s better to change focus if you can. Changing you distance to focus also changes perspective image size which can be problematic when stacking in post. But like the previous post notes, changing focus is not always possible.

-- hide signature --

———————————————————————------
"View their gallery before accepting their comments."
———————————————————————------
My photos: http://www.gordonpritchard.blogspot.com/

 gordonpritchard's gear list:gordonpritchard's gear list
Sigma 10-20mm F4-5.6 EX DC HSM Nikon Coolpix P950 Sony SLT-A57 Sony a77 II Sony 500mm F8 Reflex +1 more
AntonJA
AntonJA Forum Member • Posts: 96
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll

xpatUSA wrote

Asking for a quick poll as to which is "best":

"Best" by what evaluation criteria?
"Best" for what?

 AntonJA's gear list:AntonJA's gear list
Canon PowerShot G5 Sony SLT-A57 Sony DT 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 SAM II Samsung Galaxy S III Samsung Galaxy Tab +2 more
mawyatt2002
mawyatt2002 Contributing Member • Posts: 502
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll
2

A lot depends on the subject magnification, lower magnifications favor lens focusing if possible, higher magnifications favor moving camera/lens and or subject.

There have been lots of discussions from experts on this subject over at Photomacrography site.

http://www.photomacrography.net

Best,

-- hide signature --

Research is like a treasure hunt, you don't know where to look or what you'll find!
~Mike

xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 22,994
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll

AntonJA wrote:

xpatUSA wrote

Asking for a quick poll as to which is "best":

"Best" by what evaluation criteria?
"Best" for what?

Yes, I am well aware that "best" is loose terminology which I normally hate. However, I am not well up on the minute details and methods of close-focus stacking, so I deliberating left it vague.

Perhaps you could tell mewhat those evaluation criteria are, or what?

-- hide signature --

Ted

 xpatUSA's gear list:xpatUSA's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX1 Sigma SD9 Panasonic Lumix DC-G9 Panasonic Leica DG Macro-Elmarit 45mm F2.8 ASPH OIS Sigma 17-50mm F2.8 EX DC OS HSM +11 more
deanimator Contributing Member • Posts: 719
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll
1

xpatUSA wrote:

deanimator wrote:

I use microscope objectives, so I don't have a choice. I HAVE to use a focus rail, in my case a Wemacro.

Thanks, I wasn't familiar with that genre. I should have made it clearer that I'm talking about simple objects like flowers, bugs, small artifacts, etc.

  1. With manual or reversed lenses, you may not be able to use autofocus.
  2. Microscope objectives allow you to get fine detail of larger objects.

I've used both lens focus and rails and they both have their place, especially for somebody on a budget.  On the other hand, after a certain point of magnification, you HAVE to move the camera or the subject.

RobinHsherwood
RobinHsherwood Senior Member • Posts: 1,173
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll

deanimator wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

deanimator wrote:

I use microscope objectives, so I don't have a choice. I HAVE to use a focus rail, in my case a Wemacro.

Thanks, I wasn't familiar with that genre. I should have made it clearer that I'm talking about simple objects like flowers, bugs, small artifacts, etc.

  1. With manual or reversed lenses, you may not be able to use autofocus.
  2. Microscope objectives allow you to get fine detail of larger objects.

I've used both lens focus and rails and they both have their place, especially for somebody on a budget. On the other hand, after a certain point of magnification, you HAVE to move the camera or the subject.

+1

-- hide signature --

Robin H

 RobinHsherwood's gear list:RobinHsherwood's gear list
Sony Alpha DSLR-A850 Sony a77 II Sony 24-70mm F2.8 ZA SSM Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* Sony 70-400mm F4-5.6 G SSM Sony 500mm F8 Reflex +44 more
Bill Janes Senior Member • Posts: 2,042
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll
1

mawyatt2002 wrote:

A lot depends on the subject magnification, lower magnifications favor lens focusing if possible, higher magnifications favor moving camera/lens and or subject.

There have been lots of discussions from experts on this subject over at Photomacrography site.

http://www.photomacrography.net

Best,

+1

Rik Littlefield, author of Zerene Stacker and one of the moderators of the above forum, has a good post on this subject. Which method to use depends mainly on the magnification.

-- hide signature --

Bill Janes

c h u n k
c h u n k Senior Member • Posts: 2,042
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll

xpatUSA wrote:

deanimator wrote:

I use microscope objectives, so I don't have a choice. I HAVE to use a focus rail, in my case a Wemacro.

Thanks, I wasn't familiar with that genre. I should have made it clearer that I'm talking about simple objects like flowers, bugs, small artifacts, etc.

Many people use objectives for all of those subjects.

-- hide signature --

**********-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-**********
Some of my photos here: https://flic.kr/ps/2i6XL3
“You're off to Great Places! Today is your day! Your mountain is waiting, So... get on your way!” --Dr. Seuss

 c h u n k's gear list:c h u n k's gear list
Canon EOS 70D Canon 6D Mark II Canon EF 85mm F1.8 USM Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 Macro USM Tamron AF 28-75mm F/2.8 XR Di LD Aspherical (IF) +7 more
gardenersassistant Veteran Member • Posts: 9,656
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll

Bill Janes wrote:

mawyatt2002 wrote:

A lot depends on the subject magnification, lower magnifications favor lens focusing if possible, higher magnifications favor moving camera/lens and or subject.

There have been lots of discussions from experts on this subject over at Photomacrography site.

http://www.photomacrography.net

Best,

+1

Rik Littlefield, author of Zerene Stacker and one of the moderators of the above forum, has a good post on this subject. Which method to use depends mainly on the magnification.

Thanks for the very helpful link.

xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 22,994
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll

c h u n k wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

deanimator wrote:

I use microscope objectives, so I don't have a choice. I HAVE to use a focus rail, in my case a Wemacro.

Thanks, I wasn't familiar with that genre. I should have made it clearer that I'm talking about simple objects like flowers, bugs, small artifacts, etc.

Many people use objectives for all of those subjects.

Pardon my ignorance but I don't understands "objectives". Are they the so-called close-up filters or the likes of the Raynoxes?

-- hide signature --

Ted

 xpatUSA's gear list:xpatUSA's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX1 Sigma SD9 Panasonic Lumix DC-G9 Panasonic Leica DG Macro-Elmarit 45mm F2.8 ASPH OIS Sigma 17-50mm F2.8 EX DC OS HSM +11 more
xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 22,994
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll

Bill Janes wrote:

mawyatt2002 wrote:

A lot depends on the subject magnification, lower magnifications favor lens focusing if possible, higher magnifications favor moving camera/lens and or subject.

There have been lots of discussions from experts on this subject over at Photomacrography site.

http://www.photomacrography.net

Best,

+1

Rik Littlefield, author of Zerene Stacker and one of the moderators of the above forum, has a good post on this subject. Which method to use depends mainly on the magnification.

Thanks for the links, gents. Reading them as we speak ...

-- hide signature --

Ted

 xpatUSA's gear list:xpatUSA's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX1 Sigma SD9 Panasonic Lumix DC-G9 Panasonic Leica DG Macro-Elmarit 45mm F2.8 ASPH OIS Sigma 17-50mm F2.8 EX DC OS HSM +11 more
D Cox Forum Pro • Posts: 32,979
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll

xpatUSA wrote:

c h u n k wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

deanimator wrote:

I use microscope objectives, so I don't have a choice. I HAVE to use a focus rail, in my case a Wemacro.

Thanks, I wasn't familiar with that genre. I should have made it clearer that I'm talking about simple objects like flowers, bugs, small artifacts, etc.

Many people use objectives for all of those subjects.

Pardon my ignorance but I don't understands "objectives". Are they the so-called close-up filters or the likes of the Raynoxes?

In a typical microscope, the main lens (nearest to the object) is called the objective. The image it produces is viewed through the eyepiece.

In macro photography, objectives are often used on their own, on bellows. But the "objective" in such as setup can be any short focus lens, not necessarily one for microscopes. So the objective is just any lens that is close to the object.

 D Cox's gear list:D Cox's gear list
Sigma fp
xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 22,994
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll

D Cox wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

c h u n k wrote:

xpatUSA wrote:

deanimator wrote:

I use microscope objectives, so I don't have a choice. I HAVE to use a focus rail, in my case a Wemacro.

Thanks, I wasn't familiar with that genre. I should have made it clearer that I'm talking about simple objects like flowers, bugs, small artifacts, etc.

Many people use objectives for all of those subjects.

Pardon my ignorance but I don't understands "objectives". Are they the so-called close-up filters or the likes of the Raynoxes?

In a typical microscope, the main lens (nearest to the object) is called the objective. The image it produces is viewed through the eyepiece.

In macro photography, objectives are often used on their own, on bellows. But the "objective" in such as setup can be any short focus lens, not necessarily one for microscopes. So the objective is just any lens that is close to the object.

Thanks Don!

-- hide signature --

Ted

 xpatUSA's gear list:xpatUSA's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX1 Sigma SD9 Panasonic Lumix DC-G9 Panasonic Leica DG Macro-Elmarit 45mm F2.8 ASPH OIS Sigma 17-50mm F2.8 EX DC OS HSM +11 more
DavidWright2010 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,729
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll

Bill Janes wrote:

Rik Littlefield, author of Zerene Stacker and one of the moderators of the above forum, has a good post on this subject. Which method to use depends mainly on the magnification.

I read this Rik Littlefield post, and he mentions all the problems I imagined that the rail method introduces. (More than I imagined, actually.) And he claims that the rail method is 'mediocre' for a flower bouquet. Given the problems he discusses, that seemed a fair assessment.

But my experience does not bear that out. The rail method is at least 10x easier than the focus method for me - in this recent post, I presented a stacked flower bouquet where I accepted the stacker output without any changes. My bouquet required about 10 cm of camera movement (1 meter camera-subject distance) - maybe that was sufficiently small that perspective changes weren't noticeable? (Or the stacker compensated by locating control points?)

And of course, this is using a Sigma DP3M camera - there's no software control of focus like is offered with a Nikon, and it is very difficult to get regular focus steps by manually adjusting focus.

David

 DavidWright2010's gear list:DavidWright2010's gear list
Sigma DP1 Merrill Sigma DP2 Merrill Sigma DP3 Merrill Sigma SD1 Merrill Pentax K-1 +1 more
xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 22,994
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll

DavidWright2010 wrote:

Bill Janes wrote:

Rik Littlefield, author of Zerene Stacker and one of the moderators of the above forum, has a good post on this subject. Which method to use depends mainly on the magnification.

I read this Rik Littlefield post, and he mentions all the problems I imagined that the rail method introduces. (More than I imagined, actually.) And he claims that the rail method is 'mediocre' for a flower bouquet. Given the problems he discusses, that seemed a fair assessment.

But my experience does not bear that out. The rail method is at least 10x easier than the focus method for me - in this recent post, I presented a stacked flower bouquet where I accepted the stacker output without any changes. My bouquet required about 10 cm of camera movement (1 meter camera-subject distance) - maybe that was sufficiently small that perspective changes weren't noticeable?

I think that the ratio of rail movement to camera distance is the significant factor. For example, let's say 1:10 is OK in your experience (10cm:100cm). Then if you shot something smaller at say 10cm distance then 1cm rail movement would be good (obviously a close-up shot and probably not with a DP3M).

(Or the stacker compensated by locating control points?)

Entirely likely - 'Hugin' gives me control point resolution in pixels which help.

And of course, this is using a Sigma DP3M camera - there's no software control of focus like is offered with a Nikon, and it is very difficult to get regular focus steps by manually adjusting focus.

Understood. That manual distance scale on the LCD is nothing like the excellent scale on the Sigma true macro lenses e.g. the 70mm.

-- hide signature --

Ted

 xpatUSA's gear list:xpatUSA's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX1 Sigma SD9 Panasonic Lumix DC-G9 Panasonic Leica DG Macro-Elmarit 45mm F2.8 ASPH OIS Sigma 17-50mm F2.8 EX DC OS HSM +11 more
gardenersassistant Veteran Member • Posts: 9,656
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll
1

xpatUSA wrote:

AntonJA wrote:

xpatUSA wrote

Asking for a quick poll as to which is "best":

"Best" by what evaluation criteria?
"Best" for what?

Yes, I am well aware that "best" is loose terminology which I normally hate. However, I am not well up on the minute details and methods of close-focus stacking, so I deliberating left it vague.

Perhaps you could tell mewhat those evaluation criteria are, or what?

I think the criteria vary from person to person. Mine have led me to an approach which hasn't been mentioned here yet, which is to use video. I use Panasonic's Post Focus facility to capture a video from which I extract stills to stack. My criteria for preferring this approach are as follows, relating to botanical close-ups. (I have not yet had great success with stacking for invertebrate subjects, but there again I haven't put much effort into it as single-image captures seem more suitable for my invertebrate subject matter and shooting conditions, so I'm not highly motivated to spend time on stacking for invertebrates.)

1. It is easy to do the captures, producing a reliably well-spaced set of images to stack. I use aperture priority mode and as for stills I select the aperture, ISO, and exposure compensation (for which I have a free choice as long as the shutter speed is 1/30 sec or faster). I also select the framing of the scene. At that point I press the shutter button and the camera does the rest, moving the focus from the nearest thing it can focus on to the furthest, at 30 frames per second. It automatically adjusts the speed of the movement from front to back (and hence the distance between consecutive frames), taking account of aperture (and hence the DOF of individual frames) so as to always produce frames that are close enough for stacking.

2. It is quick to do the captures. If I stack, say, 45 frames then the capture of those frames was done in a second and a half. This matter to me because

  • I prefer to work hand-held, for creative reasons, and sometimes I have to work hand-held anyway for scenes that are not tripod-accessible (occasionally working one-handed with arm outstretched), and
  • I live in a breezy location and often have no choice but to work in breezy conditions (plants can change during the course of a day and light can change in seconds; waiting for another day with still air is not a practical option). On a breezy day this means waiting for the subject's movement to slow down enough for a stacking capture to work well enough to be usable. It is much easier to happen upon, say, 2 seconds of calmer air than the much longer period that would be needed for other techniques. The fact that the captures are so fast to do also means that it is practical to have repeated attempts to increase the chance of getting one that works.

3. I can use light and flexible kit with this technique. I generally use a small, light macro lens, but it also works with a longer reach with a small, light telezoom lens. I typically use maximum aperture to maximally blur backgrounds. The maximum aperture is smaller with the telezoom, and so the aperture-based background blur is less, but when using it at the telephoto end, which I do, the background compression is greater, which increases the background blur.

4. The pre-stacking preparations are easy. I simply have to drag the video into Helicon Focus, which automatically extracts the JPEGs and aligns them. I can then delete the frames I don't want to use. From then on the stacking is the same as with any other capture technique.

5. File handling is easier than with other techniques. Instead of having to deal with multiple, possibly several tens of, image files for each capture set, I have a single file to handle for operational and archival storage.

6. I have used the technique with 4K video, but now use 6K video. This gives 18 megapixel JPEGs to work with (more than the more usual 16 megapixels for a full sensor image from micro four thirds cameras), which is sufficient for my purposes, which is to produce 1300 pixel high images.

7. Image quality seems ok for my purposes (subject to the usual caveats about personal taste, image size, viewing distance, visual acuity, tolerance for flaws and stacking issues, when they arise, and the extent to which they can be resolved sufficiently well to produce a usable end result in an acceptable amount of time).

In case you have not seen examples of this technique before, here are some examples captured in our garden, the first four captured using 6K with a Panasonic G9 and Olympus 60mm macro earlier in the year, the other four captured before that using 4K with a Panasonic G80 and Olympus 60mm macro. The first one in each set of four is a combination of two stacks, the others are single stacks, all of which according to my records appear to have not been retouched using Helicon's retouching facilities (all eight stacks were passed to Lightroom for normal post processing).

#1 32 6K frames stacked

#2  20 6K frames stacked

#3  42 6K frames stacked

#4  28 6K frames stacked

#5  201 4K frames stacked (I think my hands may have been resting on a low wall for this one, rather than working unsupported hand-held as I think all the others were)

#6 40 4K frames stacked

#7  35 4K frames stacked

#8  17 4K frames stacked

xpatUSA
OP xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 22,994
Re: Focus versus Rail stacking Poll

Thank you for a most comprehensive response!

I am moved to give Helicon Focus a try and was interested that video can be used hand-held to produce a stack in Helicon.

Thanks again,

-- hide signature --

Ted

 xpatUSA's gear list:xpatUSA's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX1 Sigma SD9 Panasonic Lumix DC-G9 Panasonic Leica DG Macro-Elmarit 45mm F2.8 ASPH OIS Sigma 17-50mm F2.8 EX DC OS HSM +11 more
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads