Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

Started 5 months ago | Discussions
Myrgjorf Regular Member • Posts: 383
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

matteroner wrote:

The 6d has bigger eyeballs and is thus better in low light. That's why I suggested trading the 7d for a 6d.

BIGGER PIXELS

~ 6.54 vs 3.75 MICRONS

Better low-light and dynamic range (all else equal)

HIGHER EFFECTIVE ISO

2,340 vs 1,135 ISO

Take photos in low light with less noise

Yes, I understood that and you are right in the real world (John Sheehy will tell you the technical details). I just wanted to point out that there are other important features on a camera than the sensor and the 6D has some limitations here, which may or may not be important depending on the photographer.

-- hide signature --

Oh no! He should know by now that "equivalence" is a forbidden word for APS-C but perfectly allowed for 1” Sonys, compact cameras, smartphones and maybe even for M43s.

 Myrgjorf's gear list:Myrgjorf's gear list
Sony RX100 Olympus TG-5 Canon EOS 7D Mark II Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Canon EOS M50 +17 more
matteroner
matteroner Regular Member • Posts: 330
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

Okay so I was the one who hijacked the thread.  Unintentionally.  I said he should trade in his 7d for a 6d.  And keep the 80d.

I have a 6d and feel it is a better performer in low light based on real world use.

It uses a lower iso to obtain the same exposure. Moreover, at the equivalent iso it has less noise.

I'm sure the lens is a factor, but I'm talking real world.

And again everyone is comparing the 80d to the 6d. But I said keep the 80d and get the 6d instead of the 7d.

I have both and the 6d and 80d and it just doesn't do as well in low light and that's my opinion based on real world use.

There are also other benefits to having both a ff and crop sensor so it would benefit the OP to have both.

And Magic lantern does overcome many of the deficiencies in the 6d.  I can use live view to get 10x mag for fine focus for example. But it has overall different use from the 89d5

-- hide signature --

@photomat76

 matteroner's gear list:matteroner's gear list
Canon EOS 400D Canon EOS 6D Canon EOS 80D Canon EF 35mm F1.4L USM Canon EF 50mm F1.8 II +12 more
John Sheehy Forum Pro • Posts: 22,345
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

Myrgjorf wrote:

John Sheehy wrote:

Listen, YOU said the crop factor was lost, implying some practical meaning. The crop factor has no direct imaging value; pixel density does. My point is to stop attributing characteristics or qualities to the wrong things, as all that does is stop people from truly understanding things.

Sure I did:-) The "crop factor" difference between a 6D and a 80D is very real and has a very practical meaning in real life. Just look at a bird through the view finder of a 6D and then the 80D with a 400mm lens. And I will continue to use terms like "crop factor", "equivalence" and "reach" as those are practical terms in the real world instead of using long and complicated explanations every time I want to express the difference:-O.

It doesn't matter.  How large an object is, relative to the frame, is meaningless.

What do you get with everything the same except a 3.1MP APS-C and a 50MP FF?  The bird is more lost in the FF's larger frame, but it occupies many, many more pixels with the same analog resolution behind it.

Think of the term "crop factor" as an abbreviation covering complicated relations between pixel density, sensor size, viewfinder size, camera technology and generation, frame rates ... and you will hopefully feel better.

Nope.  The crop factor has no IQ value, so stop crediting it for what it doesn't give.

Otherwise you could install a plugin into your browser that automatically translates "crop factor" into a long and complicated explanation before you even read the offending combination of words;-)

BTW: I hated the 6D for its AF system, speed and handling but not for its sensor, pixel density or IQ. In fact I upgraded the 6D to a much more expensive, large, heavy and complicated camera with the same sensor size and pixel density and only slightly better IQ and I couldn't be happier. I still sometimes use my 7D2 because of its "crop factor" to give me more "reach" as it makes my 560mm lens setup "equivalent" to 896mm.

Only in a negative way.  The FOV is limited to what it would also be with 896mm with a FF camera.  That is not a benefit.  It's like someone taking a pair of scissors to a print and cutting it down to a smaller rectangle; it has nothing akin to magnification or "reach".

Have a great day in this complicated world of camera technology and terms:-)

Once you look at things my way, you'll never look back at worthless ways of looking at things .  It's very simple - the lens projects an analog image, and your sensor has a larger or smaller canvas to render it on, and quite independently, it is resolved with a range of pixel densities.

slr_SoFL
OP slr_SoFL Regular Member • Posts: 270
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO
1

matteroner wrote:

Okay so I was the one who hijacked the thread. Unintentionally. I said he should trade in his 7d for a 6d. And keep the 80d.

I have a 6d and feel it is a better performer in low light based on real world use.

It uses a lower iso to obtain the same exposure. Moreover, at the equivalent iso it has less noise.

I'm sure the lens is a factor, but I'm talking real world.

And again everyone is comparing the 80d to the 6d. But I said keep the 80d and get the 6d instead of the 7d.

I have both and the 6d and 80d and it just doesn't do as well in low light and that's my opinion based on real world use.

There are also other benefits to having both a ff and crop sensor so it would benefit the OP to have both.

And Magic lantern does overcome many of the deficiencies in the 6d. I can use live view to get 10x mag for fine focus for example. But it has overall different use from the 89d5

Thanks to all!  The question was never about getting rid of the 80D. I just bought it and love it. I just was really wanting a second FF for potential wide shot options and landscape when we're parked somewhere.

It's a once in a lifetime trip potentially so I am ditching the 7D for a 6D2.  Who needs money. Now I'm considering the Sigma 14-24 to have an extra wide lens.

-- hide signature --

Just a weekend hack...
80D
7D
Canon EF 100-400mm F4.5-5.6L IS II USM
Canon Extender EF 1.4x III
Canon EF 24-105mm F4L IS II USM
Canon EF 50mm F1.8L IS STM
Canon EF 28-135mm F3.5-5.6 IS USM
Canon EF 70-200mm F4L IS USM
Canon EF-S 10-18mm F4.5–5.6 IS STM
Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS II
Tamron 17-50 - 2.8
470EX AI

 slr_SoFL's gear list:slr_SoFL's gear list
Canon EOS 80D Canon 6D Mark II Canon Extender EF 1.4x III Sigma 12-24mm F4.5-5.6 II DG HSM Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS II +5 more
Tom59 Contributing Member • Posts: 946
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

Pi**ing contest aside, enjoy the new 6d2!!  Have a safe trip and post some pics when you get back!!!

John Sheehy Forum Pro • Posts: 22,345
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

matteroner wrote:

Okay so I was the one who hijacked the thread. Unintentionally. I said he should trade in his 7d for a 6d. And keep the 80d.

I have a 6d and feel it is a better performer in low light based on real world use.

It uses a lower iso to obtain the same exposure.

No; ISO *is* a metric about exposure, and both are completely independent of sensor size.  Exposure happens with a magnifying glass on the sidewalk; no sensor required at all.

Moreover, at the equivalent iso it has less noise.

I'm not sure how you're using "equivalent".  For equal or the same ISO, a larger sensor gets more light, which usually means less noise (unless you're comparing a very old large sensor to a modern small one).

I'm sure the lens is a factor, but I'm talking real world.

Real world without a lens forming a partnership with a sensor for a FOV, for a specific test?  Tell me all about it.

And again everyone is comparing the 80d to the 6d. But I said keep the 80d and get the 6d instead of the 7d.

I have both and the 6d and 80d and it just doesn't do as well in low light and that's my opinion based on real world use.

There is no such one thing as "low light".

Regarding noise in low light, with needed shutter speed, there is:

  1. Shallower DOF with a larger sensor and lens entrance pupil for the same FOV
  2. Same DOF with same FOV (2.56x the ISO on FF)
  3. Focal-length-limited (same ISO, but FF is cropped to 39% the total light potential)

Only #1 benefits from the larger FF sensor, vs APS-C.

There are also other benefits to having both a ff and crop sensor so it would benefit the OP to have both.

The advantage that crop sensors can have is not the crop, though, per se; it's the higher pixel density, as far as subject resolution is concerned.

And Magic lantern does overcome many of the deficiencies in the 6d. I can use live view to get 10x mag for fine focus for example. But it has overall different use from the 89d5

Dave
Dave Veteran Member • Posts: 4,745
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

slr_SoFL wrote:

Thanks to all! The question was never about getting rid of the 80D. I just bought it and love it. I just was really wanting a second FF for potential wide shot options and landscape when we're parked somewhere.

It's a once in a lifetime trip potentially so I am ditching the 7D for a 6D2. Who needs money. Now I'm considering the Sigma 14-24 to have an extra wide lens.

First time to Africa?  You may want to consult with people who have been where you are going and had similar shooting priorities to learn what worked best for them and what ended up staying in the bag (or even the cabin/tent).  Carry volume and weight are limited, so every piece needs to count.

 Dave's gear list:Dave's gear list
Canon PowerShot S20 Canon PowerShot S5 IS Canon PowerShot G6 Canon PowerShot SX40 HS Canon EOS 80D +7 more
matteroner
matteroner Regular Member • Posts: 330
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO
1

John Sheehy wrote:

.

I'm not sure how you're using "equivalent". For equal or the same ISO, a larger sensor gets more light, which usually means less noise (unless you're comparing a very old large sensor to a modern small one).

John
http://www.pbase.com/image/55384958.jpg

This is what I was trying to say all along.

-- hide signature --

@photomat76

 matteroner's gear list:matteroner's gear list
Canon EOS 400D Canon EOS 6D Canon EOS 80D Canon EF 35mm F1.4L USM Canon EF 50mm F1.8 II +12 more
Myrgjorf Regular Member • Posts: 383
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

slr_SoFL wrote:

matteroner wrote:

Okay so I was the one who hijacked the thread. Unintentionally. I said he should trade in his 7d for a 6d. And keep the 80d.

I have a 6d and feel it is a better performer in low light based on real world use.

It uses a lower iso to obtain the same exposure. Moreover, at the equivalent iso it has less noise.

I'm sure the lens is a factor, but I'm talking real world.

And again everyone is comparing the 80d to the 6d. But I said keep the 80d and get the 6d instead of the 7d.

I have both and the 6d and 80d and it just doesn't do as well in low light and that's my opinion based on real world use.

There are also other benefits to having both a ff and crop sensor so it would benefit the OP to have both.

And Magic lantern does overcome many of the deficiencies in the 6d. I can use live view to get 10x mag for fine focus for example. But it has overall different use from the 89d5

Thanks to all! The question was never about getting rid of the 80D. I just bought it and love it. I just was really wanting a second FF for potential wide shot options and landscape when we're parked somewhere.

It's a once in a lifetime trip potentially so I am ditching the 7D for a 6D2. Who needs money. Now I'm considering the Sigma 14-24 to have an extra wide lens.

Here are a few hints for your safari in Africa. Africa is very dusty so bring some kind of blanket or sheet to cover your gear while in transport in open vehicles. Don't swap lenses in the open to avoid dust. The big animals can get really close so it is a good to have two cameras. 80D + 100-400L mk ii is a really great combo as primary which my wife has used on many safaris. 24-105L on a 6D2 will be great as secondary setup. You may want to swap lenses a day or two to get lower noise in the dark morning and evening. Remember to get some landscape around the animals on some photos so not all are close ups. A really wide lens is useful in special situations, especially if you are going to fly with balloon (highly recommended but expensive) or helicopter. Ask the driver to place the vehicle for the best composition as drivers often will try go get very close to the animals instead of giving you the best composition for a long lens. The drivers love to help you once they get your idea. E.g. a big animal or a nice tree in the distance against the sun during sunrise or sunset.

And enjoy. Africa is fantastic.

-- hide signature --

Oh no! He should know by now that "equivalence" is a forbidden word for APS-C but perfectly allowed for 1” Sonys, compact cameras, smartphones and maybe even for M43s.

 Myrgjorf's gear list:Myrgjorf's gear list
Sony RX100 Olympus TG-5 Canon EOS 7D Mark II Canon EOS-1D X Mark II Canon EOS M50 +17 more
slr_SoFL
OP slr_SoFL Regular Member • Posts: 270
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

Myrgjorf wrote:

slr_SoFL wrote:

matteroner wrote:

Okay so I was the one who hijacked the thread. Unintentionally. I said he should trade in his 7d for a 6d. And keep the 80d.

I have a 6d and feel it is a better performer in low light based on real world use.

It uses a lower iso to obtain the same exposure. Moreover, at the equivalent iso it has less noise.

I'm sure the lens is a factor, but I'm talking real world.

And again everyone is comparing the 80d to the 6d. But I said keep the 80d and get the 6d instead of the 7d.

I have both and the 6d and 80d and it just doesn't do as well in low light and that's my opinion based on real world use.

There are also other benefits to having both a ff and crop sensor so it would benefit the OP to have both.

And Magic lantern does overcome many of the deficiencies in the 6d. I can use live view to get 10x mag for fine focus for example. But it has overall different use from the 89d5

Thanks to all! The question was never about getting rid of the 80D. I just bought it and love it. I just was really wanting a second FF for potential wide shot options and landscape when we're parked somewhere.

It's a once in a lifetime trip potentially so I am ditching the 7D for a 6D2. Who needs money. Now I'm considering the Sigma 14-24 to have an extra wide lens.

Here are a few hints for your safari in Africa. Africa is very dusty so bring some kind of blanket or sheet to cover your gear while in transport in open vehicles. Don't swap lenses in the open to avoid dust. The big animals can get really close so it is a good to have two cameras. 80D + 100-400L mk ii is a really great combo as primary which my wife has used on many safaris. 24-105L on a 6D2 will be great as secondary setup. You may want to swap lenses a day or two to get lower noise in the dark morning and evening. Remember to get some landscape around the animals on some photos so not all are close ups. A really wide lens is useful in special situations, especially if you are going to fly with balloon (highly recommended but expensive) or helicopter. Ask the driver to place the vehicle for the best composition as drivers often will try go get very close to the animals instead of giving you the best composition for a long lens. The drivers love to help you once they get your idea. E.g. a big animal or a nice tree in the distance against the sun during sunrise or sunset.

And enjoy. Africa is fantastic.

Thank you very much!  That's exactly the main setup I'm looking for. 100-400 (with or without the 1.4) always on the 80D for the most part. 24-105 on the 6D2. I read a lot about animals coming up close so I was really antsy about the 7D having the 25-105 on it.

I'm traveling with a friend who's done this a few times. Going to only pack photo gear that fits in the new 26L backpack I got. Already saw I can fit two bodies and the lenses I want in there, although as mentioned in wondering if am ultra wide will be worth it or the 24mm end on the 24-105 is enough for planned landscapes or Star pictures as we'll be out in very dark places.   Need to learn more about the COMA issue I've seen in passing.

-- hide signature --

Just a weekend hack...
80D
7D
Canon EF 100-400mm F4.5-5.6L IS II USM
Canon Extender EF 1.4x III
Canon EF 24-105mm F4L IS II USM
Canon EF 50mm F1.8L IS STM
Canon EF 28-135mm F3.5-5.6 IS USM
Canon EF 70-200mm F4L IS USM
Canon EF-S 10-18mm F4.5–5.6 IS STM
Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS II
Tamron 17-50 - 2.8
470EX AI

 slr_SoFL's gear list:slr_SoFL's gear list
Canon EOS 80D Canon 6D Mark II Canon Extender EF 1.4x III Sigma 12-24mm F4.5-5.6 II DG HSM Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS II +5 more
John Sheehy Forum Pro • Posts: 22,345
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

matteroner wrote:

John Sheehy wrote:

.

I'm not sure how you're using "equivalent". For equal or the same ISO, a larger sensor gets more light, which usually means less noise (unless you're comparing a very old large sensor to a modern small one).

John
http://www.pbase.com/image/55384958.jpg

This is what I was trying to say all along.

That's what almost everyone says, but it is irrelevant unless you are going to use a larger lens with shallower DOF.

My point is that comparison "at a certain ISO" between two sensor sizes may have no photographic meaning.

matteroner
matteroner Regular Member • Posts: 330
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

But in a low light scenario hand holding; I am grabbing the larger lens with the widest ap. To even further improve light collection. So if my mind is thinking low light I grab the 6d and my 35mm 1.4. I guess if i had a 22mm 1.4 i would grab the 80d. But like i said. Real world.

Now if we are talking landscapes at f11 then the 80d might be the way to go depending on the lenses I have and the view I want.

-- hide signature --

@photomat76

 matteroner's gear list:matteroner's gear list
Canon EOS 400D Canon EOS 6D Canon EOS 80D Canon EF 35mm F1.4L USM Canon EF 50mm F1.8 II +12 more
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads