Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

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slr_SoFL
slr_SoFL Regular Member • Posts: 270
Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO
1

Used both a 10 year old 7D with the nifty fifty and the 80D with the 100-400ii at my son's HS graduation and I could not believe how great the 80D worked indoors (skip to near the end) at 12,800 ISO with the 100-400 and how crappy the 7D with the nifty fifty looked in early morning light, but was fine later. The 80D in the same early morning light with the 24-105 looked great.

https://rushscott.smugmug.com/2019/MSD-Graduation-2019

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matteroner
matteroner Regular Member • Posts: 310
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO
3

If you think that is good trade your 7d for a 6d and the results will be even better.

I started with a 6d and added an 80d for wildlife and macro.  But after iso 1600 I feel the 80d  is unacceptable.   But that's probably because I was coming from the 6d.

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slr_SoFL
OP slr_SoFL Regular Member • Posts: 270
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

matteroner wrote:

If you think that is good trade your 7d for a 6d and the results will be even better.

I started with a 6d and added an 80d for wildlife and macro. But after iso 1600 I feel the 80d is unacceptable. But that's probably because I was coming from the 6d.

I've actually been looking very hard today at FF. What do you think 6D vs 5mkiii vs 6Dii

Also what would you recommend as a path to selling a 7D?

I would love to keep my 24-105 on a FF during the trip.

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Just a weekend hack...
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Canon Extender EF 1.4x III
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Canon EF 50mm F1.8L IS STM
Canon EF 28-135mm F3.5-5.6 IS USM
Canon EF 70-200mm F4L IS USM
Canon EF-S 10-18mm F4.5–5.6 IS STM
Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS II
Tamron 17-50 - 2.8
470EX AI

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matteroner
matteroner Regular Member • Posts: 310
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

slr_SoFL wrote:

matteroner wrote:

If you think that is good trade your 7d for a 6d and the results will be even better.

I started with a 6d and added an 80d for wildlife and macro. But after iso 1600 I feel the 80d is unacceptable. But that's probably because I was coming from the 6d.

I've actually been looking very hard today at FF. What do you think 6D vs 5mkiii vs 6Dii

Also what would you recommend as a path to selling a 7D?

I would love to keep my 24-105 on a FF during the trip.

I sell on Ebay... but this takes some experience so you can get the best price. The key is to study the listings of SOLD items, not current listings. And post a lot of pictures.

I feel the 6d is perfectly adequate for most situations.   If you do a lot of video then I would consider the 6dii, but I dont think you will notice an image quality difference.   It does have more focus points, if your into that.

For me the two cameras complement each other well.  I will say that having magic lantern on the 6d is important, at least to me.

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slr_SoFL
OP slr_SoFL Regular Member • Posts: 270
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

matteroner wrote:

slr_SoFL wrote:

matteroner wrote:

If you think that is good trade your 7d for a 6d and the results will be even better.

I started with a 6d and added an 80d for wildlife and macro. But after iso 1600 I feel the 80d is unacceptable. But that's probably because I was coming from the 6d.

I've actually been looking very hard today at FF. What do you think 6D vs 5mkiii vs 6Dii

Also what would you recommend as a path to selling a 7D?

I would love to keep my 24-105 on a FF during the trip.

I sell on Ebay... but this takes some experience so you can get the best price. The key is to study the listings of SOLD items, not current listings. And post a lot of pictures.

I feel the 6d is perfectly adequate for most situations. If you do a lot of video then I would consider the 6dii, but I dont think you will notice an image quality difference. It does have more focus points, if your into that.

For me the two cameras complement each other well. I will say that having magic lantern on the 6d is important, at least to me.

I'm looking for the best experience going on the African safari. Not too much into video and I know the 80D is well regarded for video anyway. Honestly looking to park my 24-105 on a FF and leave the 100-400 on the 80D for the majority of the time.  I agree that the 7D isn't really the best fit.

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Canon EF-S 10-18mm F4.5–5.6 IS STM
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matteroner
matteroner Regular Member • Posts: 310
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

Right the 6d will give you some great shots at dusk and dawn. Where the 80d will give great shots during the day.  Only drawback is the weather sealing on the 6d is sh*t

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Tom59 Contributing Member • Posts: 928
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO
1

Owning both the 6d and 80d i would agree with all of matteroners comments. Both are very capable cameras. The 80d and the 100 400 make a great combo. That being said, if you can afford the 6d2 i would go that route. Better af than original, controls pretty much identical to the 80d. Basically a FF 80d. Rented one for a vacation and was very pleased with it.

Another option is to rent the 6d2 for the trip. The learning curve will be nil as again it is almost identical to the 80d

Myrgjorf Regular Member • Posts: 383
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

matteroner wrote:

Right the 6d will give you some great shots at dusk and dawn. Where the 80d will give great shots during the day. Only drawback is the weather sealing on the 6d is sh*t

Other 6D drawbacks: only one reliable AF point, non-center AF points are too close to the center and not always reliable. I had a 6D some years ago and it did't work for me so I sold it. Not a problem if you are a focus-and-recompose photographer. And of course you loose the crop factor for your long lenses.

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Oh no! He should know by now that "equivalence" is a forbidden word for APS-C but perfectly allowed for 1” Sonys, compact cameras, smartphones and maybe even for M43s.

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Dave
Dave Veteran Member • Posts: 4,648
80D at 16,000 ISO

This picture was taken at night, and the camera arguably "saw" the vessel better than the human eye did.

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Dave
Dave Veteran Member • Posts: 4,648
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

Oh, my.  I realized what school this is.  I'm glad they have something to celebrate.  Good luck to your son and his classmates.

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slr_SoFL
OP slr_SoFL Regular Member • Posts: 270
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

Dave wrote:

Oh, my. I realized what school this is. I'm glad they have something to celebrate. Good luck to your son and his classmates.

Thank you. Yup. Two of my boys were in the school that day. It's been a horrible experience I hope no one else ever goes through, but sadly more and more communities are suffering like we have and continue to do.

It was great that Dwyane Wade came to speak. Jimmy Fallon last year. The big one will be in two years (when my middle son graduates) as that is the class that lost the most kids that day.

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80D
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Canon EF 100-400mm F4.5-5.6L IS II USM
Canon Extender EF 1.4x III
Canon EF 24-105mm F4L IS II USM
Canon EF 50mm F1.8L IS STM
Canon EF 28-135mm F3.5-5.6 IS USM
Canon EF 70-200mm F4L IS USM
Canon EF-S 10-18mm F4.5–5.6 IS STM
Canon EF-S 55-250mm f/4-5.6 IS II
Tamron 17-50 - 2.8
470EX AI

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gipper51 Veteran Member • Posts: 4,953
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

slr_SoFL wrote:

I've actually been looking very hard today at FF. What do you think 6D vs 5mkiii vs 6Dii

If you're happy with the 80D, I think you'll love the 6D2. It's basically the same camera but with a FF sensor. The 6D2 is worth the price premium over the original just on the updated AF alone, both through the OVF and the live view. It's not much of an upgrade on image quality alone, but mostly on performance and usability.

The 6D2 took a lot of heat in reviews for its lack of DR compared to other cameras (less than 80D even), and lacking 4K, dual card slots, etc. But now that the dust has settled, most users are finding it produces great pictures in the real world. If your shooting style regularly involves under-exposing a scene by 3 stops and pushing shadows up, this camera is not for you. Otherwise, it performs pretty damn well.

That said, if the budget can only swing a 6D you won't be disappointed with it. I owned the 6D longer than any other FF camera I've had, it produced great results. But...be prepared to be underwhelmed by the very basic AF system after using the 80D.

As for the 5DIII, it's still a very valid option but you're going to have to go the second hand route. To me, the only advantage over a 6D2 is the better AF system (and AF joystick), and possibly dual card storage if that matters.

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quiquae Senior Member • Posts: 1,525
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

gipper51 wrote:

As for the 5DIII, it's still a very valid option but you're going to have to go the second hand route. To me, the only advantage over a 6D2 is the better AF system (and AF joystick), and possibly dual card storage if that matters.

The 5D3 is also more solidly built and more weather-sealed. That comes at the expense of weight and bulk, of course.

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John Sheehy Forum Pro • Posts: 22,157
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

Myrgjorf wrote:

matteroner wrote:

Right the 6d will give you some great shots at dusk and dawn. Where the 80d will give great shots during the day. Only drawback is the weather sealing on the 6d is sh*t

Other 6D drawbacks: only one reliable AF point, non-center AF points are too close to the center and not always reliable. I had a 6D some years ago and it did't work for me so I sold it. Not a problem if you are a focus-and-recompose photographer. And of course you loose the crop factor for your long lenses.

That's not the loss.  The loss is pixel density, which usually accompanies sensor size, but not always.  There is no "quality" of any sort from having a narrower FOV with the same lens due to a smaller sensor size; you need higher pixel density.  A crop camera may have faster burst speed, of course, with the same pixel density, with a smaller sensor.

Let's look at an extreme; a 50MP FF and a 3.1MP APS-C.  What benefit is there to the crop camera, subject-quality-wise?  None.  It puts only about 16% as many pixels on subject, and all the crop does is make sure that a larger part of the image circle projected by the lens is never recorded at all.

John Sheehy Forum Pro • Posts: 22,157
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

matteroner wrote:

If you think that is good trade your 7d for a 6d and the results will be even better.

I started with a 6d and added an 80d for wildlife and macro. But after iso 1600 I feel the 80d is unacceptable. But that's probably because I was coming from the 6d.

It is important when considering FF vs APS-C to remember that sensor size alone does not determine practical, real-world image quality. The sensor and lens are a team, and a larger sensor does not give better high-ISO results without a larger lens *and* shallower DOF.

If one is interested mainly in wide angles, and shallowest DOF, and is willing to get the lenses for that if they don't already have them, they should run, not walk, to FF.

For some other uses, however, the FF advantage can just be an academic illusion.

I own the 7D2 and the 6D. I choose the 7D2 for limited light situations if I need some DOF or I am focal-length-limited. I choose the 6D when I want shallow DOF, or want maximum width of FOV with wide-angle and fish-eye.

The 6D, for example, with an f/4 zoom lens, does not give much less noise than the 7D2 with an f/2.8 zoom lens, at any ISO or tonal level, in the overlapping range of fields of view; not like it would if I used the same zoom on both bodies, but then, the 6D system would give shallower DOF, which would be a main reason I chose it (the other being wider fields of view with the same lens).

In focal-length-limited situations, where you would compare a 1.6x crop from the 6D to the 7D2, the 6D has less resolution and no noise benefit, and is actually worse in low-ISO shadows.

Myrgjorf Regular Member • Posts: 383
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

John Sheehy wrote:

Myrgjorf wrote:

matteroner wrote:

Right the 6d will give you some great shots at dusk and dawn. Where the 80d will give great shots during the day. Only drawback is the weather sealing on the 6d is sh*t

Other 6D drawbacks: only one reliable AF point, non-center AF points are too close to the center and not always reliable. I had a 6D some years ago and it did't work for me so I sold it. Not a problem if you are a focus-and-recompose photographer. And of course you loose the crop factor for your long lenses.

That's not the loss. The loss is pixel density, which usually accompanies sensor size, but not always. There is no "quality" of any sort from having a narrower FOV with the same lens due to a smaller sensor size; you need higher pixel density. A crop camera may have faster burst speed, of course, with the same pixel density, with a smaller sensor.

Let's look at an extreme; a 50MP FF and a 3.1MP APS-C. What benefit is there to the crop camera, subject-quality-wise? None. It puts only about 16% as many pixels on subject, and all the crop does is make sure that a larger part of the image circle projected by the lens is never recorded at all.

We all (or most of us) know that! This discussion is about 80D (24MP APS-C) vs. 6D (20MP) and here the crop factor (or "higher pixel density on a smaller sensor where the view finder and all of the camera is adapted to the smaller sensor") is very real for the same lenses. You don't like the term "crop factor" and that is OK. But "crop factor" is useful in real world so many of us will continue that term. Just as many vendors use 35mm "equivalence" even there is nothing magic about the 35mm "standard" (bigger than smaller sensors and smaller than bigger sensors).

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Oh no! He should know by now that "equivalence" is a forbidden word for APS-C but perfectly allowed for 1” Sonys, compact cameras, smartphones and maybe even for M43s.

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John Sheehy Forum Pro • Posts: 22,157
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

Myrgjorf wrote:

John Sheehy wrote:

Myrgjorf wrote:

Other 6D drawbacks: only one reliable AF point, non-center AF points are too close to the center and not always reliable. I had a 6D some years ago and it did't work for me so I sold it. Not a problem if you are a focus-and-recompose photographer. And of course you loose the crop factor for your long lenses.

That's not the loss. The loss is pixel density, which usually accompanies sensor size, but not always. There is no "quality" of any sort from having a narrower FOV with the same lens due to a smaller sensor size; you need higher pixel density. A crop camera may have faster burst speed, of course, with the same pixel density, with a smaller sensor.

Let's look at an extreme; a 50MP FF and a 3.1MP APS-C. What benefit is there to the crop camera, subject-quality-wise? None. It puts only about 16% as many pixels on subject, and all the crop does is make sure that a larger part of the image circle projected by the lens is never recorded at all.

We all (or most of us) know that! This discussion is about 80D (24MP APS-C) vs. 6D (20MP) and here the crop factor (or "higher pixel density on a smaller sensor where the view finder and all of the camera is adapted to the smaller sensor") is very real for the same lenses. You don't like the term "crop factor" and that is OK. But "crop factor" is useful in real world so many of us will continue that term. Just as many vendors use 35mm "equivalence" even there is nothing magic about the 35mm "standard" (bigger than smaller sensors and smaller than bigger sensors).

Listen, YOU said the crop factor was lost, implying some practical meaning. The crop factor has no direct imaging value; pixel density does. My point is to stop attributing characteristics or qualities to the wrong things, as all that does is stop people from truly understanding things.

matteroner
matteroner Regular Member • Posts: 310
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO
2

The 6d has bigger eyeballs and is thus better in low light. That's why I suggested trading the 7d for a 6d.

BIGGER PIXELS

~ 6.54 vs 3.75 MICRONS

Better low-light and dynamic range (all else equal)

HIGHER EFFECTIVE ISO

2,340 vs 1,135 ISO

Take photos in low light with less noise

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John Sheehy Forum Pro • Posts: 22,157
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

matteroner wrote:

The 6d has bigger eyeballs and is thus better in low light. That's why I suggested trading the 7d for a 6d.

BIGGER PIXELS

~ 6.54 vs 3.75 MICRONS

Better low-light and dynamic range (all else equal)

HIGHER EFFECTIVE ISO

2,340 vs 1,135 ISO

Take photos in low light with less noise

A bigger lens with a bigger entrance pupil is the bigger eyeball.  Larger pixels only waste resolution, and larger sensors only have a larger area, which requires a bigger lens and shallower DOF to get more light from the same FOV.

Sensors and lenses are teams, in real world photography.

Pixel-level and image-level comparisons at the same ISO are not real world photography.

Myrgjorf Regular Member • Posts: 383
Re: Amazed by 80D at 12,800 ISO

John Sheehy wrote:

Listen, YOU said the crop factor was lost, implying some practical meaning. The crop factor has no direct imaging value; pixel density does. My point is to stop attributing characteristics or qualities to the wrong things, as all that does is stop people from truly understanding things.

Sure I did:-) The "crop factor" difference between a 6D and a 80D is very real and has a very practical meaning in real life. Just look at a bird through the view finder of a 6D and then the 80D with a 400mm lens. And I will continue to use terms like "crop factor", "equivalence" and "reach" as those are practical terms in the real world instead of using long and complicated explanations every time I want to express the difference:-O. Think of the term "crop factor" as an abbreviation covering complicated relations between pixel density, sensor size, viewfinder size, camera technology and generation, frame rates ... and you will hopefully feel better. Otherwise you could install a plugin into your browser that automatically translates "crop factor" into a long and complicated explanation before you even read the offending combination of words;-)

BTW: I hated the 6D for its AF system, speed and handling but not for its sensor, pixel density or IQ. In fact I upgraded the 6D to a much more expensive, large, heavy and complicated camera with the same sensor size and pixel density and only slightly better IQ and I couldn't be happier. I still sometimes use my 7D2 because of its "crop factor" to give me more "reach" as it makes my 560mm lens setup "equivalent" to 896mm. Have a great day in this complicated world of camera technology and terms:-)

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Oh no! He should know by now that "equivalence" is a forbidden word for APS-C but perfectly allowed for 1” Sonys, compact cameras, smartphones and maybe even for M43s.

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