“Fear is the path to the dark side…fear leads to anger…anger leads to hate…hate leads to suffering.”

Started 5 months ago | Discussions
Wu Jiaqiu
Wu Jiaqiu Forum Pro • Posts: 24,823
Re: War is endless, if you want it
2

TN Args wrote:

Richard Butler wrote:

In the long term, a site with positive engagement is much more attractive to new readers than one with anger and hostility....

We're working on mechanisms to encourage positive contributions, but in the short term, it's not practical for our editorial staff or our moderators to deal with the volume of comments we get, nor try to make subtle judgement calls about who's acting in good faith.

Richard - dpreview.com

Yes, I have heard from DPR forum mods that they feel crippled in their efforts to create a less vile discussion space. Always crippled by the very poor moderator toolkit that this site enables, and sometimes crippled by an admin philosophy that, at least in the past, has favoured the right to free speech over the right to a safe place.

And do not be mistaken: the DPR Forums discussion space is the pits. To mention this in DPR Forums is to buy an argument (to mention anything in DPR Forums is to buy an argument), but go to another photography discussion site and mention DPR Forums and the quality of conversation here, and there is general agreement: it is the pits, and that is often why they left.

Long way to go, Richard. But are you going to take a long time to get there?

cheers

i'd be careful talking about moderation, your post will probably disappear, hopefully your flame of Bob will stay so we can all look back on it with fond memories

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Tommi K1 Senior Member • Posts: 7,192
Re: Respect
2

Pixnat2 wrote:

Cross format talking wouln't be a problem if done respectfully.

And being polite or with good manners doesn't mean respect.

Respect includes that you honor other decision and will to stay in own place.

M4/3 has its own room, it is this.

If someone wants to get cross format talking, that is why "Open Forum" is for. That is the "lobby for all rooms" and it is disrespectful to start preaching about other formats there, but it would be respectful to give a link to other forum where the corresponding format/system discussion is going. And if it is general cross topic one, direct it to open talk.

Think it as religion. Muslims in one of the island, Hinds in their own, Christians in own, Jews at their own and etc.

You don't go to others island to preach how their religion is bad or how it is different from others. No, you stay away from others. You respect their religion, their rules, their manners and ways of life when you visit other islands.

But there is need for a open island where everyone is welcomed. But not to argue, fight and bash. Polite discussion, logical arguments, sharing view points. But not to convert anyone, not to preach own, not to put down others etc.

But there needs to be as well a some small place where people can go to argue, relief themselves, test themselves and others. IT IS LIKE A FIGHT CLUB. There are rules not to kill, not to permanently injure, other than lose face or face, but only in there. What there is, is kept there and not carried over to other places.

And that doesn't exist!

DPR should create a new forum, just for arguments. It is strictly moderated for personal attacks, but the you can within rules are as much you want about is blue dress or white dress, is 245mm² better than x⅔ or is it better to have old brand or new brand, is f/2 a f/2 or does ratio of two element change of third value is changed that ratio doesn't include?

And if someone wants to make remarks about someone, better do it private message or not so at all.

Those discussions, when constructive, are very helpful for a lot of people.

Constructive is never negative, it is always positive. It is never about "this is bad, that is better". It is not never pointing out how something else is better than what someone else has now. It is not about explaining something and stating "but these are just the facts, look it is science"

There is a difference to tell someone how to improve their results, than it is to tell them that the someone else does it better.

Just dreaming ...

Yes, but moderators so not want to make a such dedicated "fight club" forum. So everyone suffers. Themselves too.

Pixnat2
Pixnat2 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,767
Re: Respect
1

Tommi K1 wrote:

Pixnat2 wrote:

Cross format talking wouln't be a problem if done respectfully.

And being polite or with good manners doesn't mean respect.

Respect includes that you honor other decision and will to stay in own place.

M4/3 has its own room, it is this.

If someone wants to get cross format talking, that is why "Open Forum" is for. That is the "lobby for all rooms" and it is disrespectful to start preaching about other formats there, but it would be respectful to give a link to other forum where the corresponding format/system discussion is going. And if it is general cross topic one, direct it to open talk.

Think it as religion. Muslims in one of the island, Hinds in their own, Christians in own, Jews at their own and etc.

You don't go to others island to preach how their religion is bad or how it is different from others. No, you stay away from others. You respect their religion, their rules, their manners and ways of life when you visit other islands.

But there is need for a open island where everyone is welcomed. But not to argue, fight and bash. Polite discussion, logical arguments, sharing view points. But not to convert anyone, not to preach own, not to put down others etc.

But there needs to be as well a some small place where people can go to argue, relief themselves, test themselves and others. IT IS LIKE A FIGHT CLUB. There are rules not to kill, not to permanently injure, other than lose face or face, but only in there. What there is, is kept there and not carried over to other places.

And that doesn't exist!

DPR should create a new forum, just for arguments. It is strictly moderated for personal attacks, but the you can within rules are as much you want about is blue dress or white dress, is 245mm² better than x⅔ or is it better to have old brand or new brand, is f/2 a f/2 or does ratio of two element change of third value is changed that ratio doesn't include?

And if someone wants to make remarks about someone, better do it private message or not so at all.

Those discussions, when constructive, are very helpful for a lot of people.

Constructive is never negative, it is always positive. It is never about "this is bad, that is better". It is not never pointing out how something else is better than what someone else has now. It is not about explaining something and stating "but these are just the facts, look it is science"

There is a difference to tell someone how to improve their results, than it is to tell them that the someone else does it better.

Just dreaming ...

Yes, but moderators so not want to make a such dedicated "fight club" forum. So everyone suffers. Themselves too.

Some good thoughts Tommi.

I just beg to differ that we shouldn't stay away from others, as you said, but instead learn to speak to each other with tolerance and respect.

Shouldn't be too difficult, as we are all educated people.

But the premise for this is to accept that nobody holds The Truth, or, saying differently, that everybody's truth is The Truth.

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Wu Jiaqiu
Wu Jiaqiu Forum Pro • Posts: 24,823
Re: Respect
1

Tommi K1 wrote:

Pixnat2 wrote:

Cross format talking wouln't be a problem if done respectfully.

And being polite or with good manners doesn't mean respect.

Respect includes that you honor other decision and will to stay in own place.

M4/3 has its own room, it is this.

If someone wants to get cross format talking, that is why "Open Forum" is for. That is the "lobby for all rooms" and it is disrespectful to start preaching about other formats there, but it would be respectful to give a link to other forum where the corresponding format/system discussion is going. And if it is general cross topic one, direct it to open talk.

Think it as religion. Muslims in one of the island, Hinds in their own, Christians in own, Jews at their own and etc.

You don't go to others island to preach how their religion is bad or how it is different from others. No, you stay away from others. You respect their religion, their rules, their manners and ways of life when you visit other islands.

But there is need for a open island where everyone is welcomed. But not to argue, fight and bash. Polite discussion, logical arguments, sharing view points. But not to convert anyone, not to preach own, not to put down others etc.

But there needs to be as well a some small place where people can go to argue, relief themselves, test themselves and others. IT IS LIKE A FIGHT CLUB. There are rules not to kill, not to permanently injure, other than lose face or face, but only in there. What there is, is kept there and not carried over to other places.

And that doesn't exist!

DPR should create a new forum, just for arguments. It is strictly moderated for personal attacks, but the you can within rules are as much you want about is blue dress or white dress, is 245mm² better than x⅔ or is it better to have old brand or new brand, is f/2 a f/2 or does ratio of two element change of third value is changed that ratio doesn't include?

And if someone wants to make remarks about someone, better do it private message or not so at all.

Those discussions, when constructive, are very helpful for a lot of people.

Constructive is never negative, it is always positive. It is never about "this is bad, that is better". It is not never pointing out how something else is better than what someone else has now. It is not about explaining something and stating "but these are just the facts, look it is science"

There is a difference to tell someone how to improve their results, than it is to tell them that the someone else does it better.

Just dreaming ...

Yes, but moderators so not want to make a such dedicated "fight club" forum. So everyone suffers. Themselves too.

it was called Off Topic and they closed it down, some of us would like it to return

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Pixnat2
Pixnat2 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,767
Re: Your problem is DPR demographics

Chris Noble wrote:

Richard Butler wrote:

Your certainty that it's not hard doesn't mirror our experience (I'd be interested to understand the differences, but this isn't likely to be the best place to explore that).

Most DPR equipment commenters are (i) old (ii) guys -- a subset of humanity that is often in a bad mood.

lol good one!

As I say, we're working on ways to encourage more positive interaction, precisely because we recognise that our current moderation system has its limits.

Whether you believe me or not, it should be pretty apparent that a welcoming environment is a better way to encourage an audience than off-putting antagonism between a small minority.

Richard - dpreview.com

Your efforts are appreciated!

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Pete_W
Pete_W Senior Member • Posts: 1,120
Re: War is over, if you want it
5

Richard Butler wrote:

Since we don't have the capacity to review and assess every single comment, it's up to each individual to consider whether they're fighting or contributing to the nastiness.

Richard - dpreview.com

In my view, DPReview indirectly encourages this nastiness by presenting almost everything it reviews through the prism of FF. Every other camera system reviewed on this site is put into equivalent terms and by default, FF is presented as the best/ultimate/superior model, which means that by default everything else is viewed as inferior. This builds arrogance in many of those FF owners who seem intent on posting derogatory comments about any other format.

If reviews only compared cameras to others within the same format and did not refer at all to other format cameras, it would help reduce the nasty comments from people boasting about their superior light gathering/resolution/DoF/etc. And comments posted on articles that mention another format camera could simply be deleted as off topic, a simply way to moderate.

I know this may seem radical, but what's to lose? If people want to compare a M43 camera with an APSC or FF format camera, they can just dial up the relevant review and make their own comparison. Comparing cameras across formats seems completely daft to me. To use a car analogy, review articles are always done by class. I've never seen a VW Golf compared with a large 6-cylinder SUV.

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Pete

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New Day Rising
New Day Rising Senior Member • Posts: 2,949
Re: Respect
6

Tommi K1 wrote:

Pixnat2 wrote:

Cross format talking wouln't be a problem if done respectfully.

And being polite or with good manners doesn't mean respect.

Respect includes that you honor other decision and will to stay in own place.

M4/3 has its own room, it is this.

This thread is actually about comments on articles in the News section of the site, not the m4/3 forum. You don't get to dictate what people can write in a common area like the News section (you also don't get to dictate who is entitled to post in this forum either, but that is another issue).

If someone wants to get cross format talking, that is why "Open Forum" is for. That is the "lobby for all rooms" and it is disrespectful to start preaching about other formats there, but it would be respectful to give a link to other forum where the corresponding format/system discussion is going. And if it is general cross topic one, direct it to open talk.

Think it as religion. Muslims in one of the island, Hinds in their own, Christians in own, Jews at their own and etc.

Yet, inexplicably, some societies have functioned perfectly well for hundreds and hundreds of years with people of different religions coexisting peacefully and respectfully.

You don't go to others island to preach how their religion is bad or how it is different from others. No, you stay away from others. You respect their religion, their rules, their manners and ways of life when you visit other islands.

Try telling that to missionaries, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses.

But there is need for a open island where everyone is welcomed. But not to argue, fight and bash. Polite discussion, logical arguments, sharing view points. But not to convert anyone, not to preach own, not to put down others etc.

But there needs to be as well a some small place where people can go to argue, relief themselves, test themselves and others. IT IS LIKE A FIGHT CLUB. There are rules not to kill, not to permanently injure, other than lose face or face, but only in there. What there is, is kept there and not carried over to other places.

And that doesn't exist!

It did. It was called the Off Topic forum and had to be shut down because it was a cesspit of vile political, racial and religious vilification perpetrated by some members who are still sighted around here and others who have mercifully disappeared (one particularly foul and violent bigot, who even managed to outrage the other foul bigots, comes to mind).

DPR should create a new forum, just for arguments. It is strictly moderated for personal attacks, but the you can within rules are as much you want about is blue dress or white dress, is 245mm² better than x⅔ or is it better to have old brand or new brand, is f/2 a f/2 or does ratio of two element change of third value is changed that ratio doesn't include?

And if someone wants to make remarks about someone, better do it private message or not so at all.

Those discussions, when constructive, are very helpful for a lot of people.

Constructive is never negative, it is always positive. It is never about "this is bad, that is better". It is not never pointing out how something else is better than what someone else has now. It is not about explaining something and stating "but these are just the facts, look it is science"

You need to think about your own posting style, Tommi. A DPR reviewer just has to state a fact like "The E-M1X has a smaller sensor than the D5" and you start wailing about m4/3 bashing.

There is a difference to tell someone how to improve their results, than it is to tell them that the someone else does it better.

Just dreaming ...

Yes, but moderators so not want to make a such dedicated "fight club" forum. So everyone suffers. Themselves too.

The moderators and admins (and DPR management no doubt) suffered more when the Off Topic fight club was in operation. There would be a lot less self-induced "suffering" around here if some people were less defensive, paranoid and emotionally attached to their plastic, metal and glass idols.

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New Day Rising
New Day Rising Senior Member • Posts: 2,949
Re: War is over, if you want it
2

Pete_W wrote:

Richard Butler wrote:

Since we don't have the capacity to review and assess every single comment, it's up to each individual to consider whether they're fighting or contributing to the nastiness.

Richard - dpreview.com

In my view, DPReview indirectly encourages this nastiness by presenting almost everything it reviews through the prism of FF. Every other camera system reviewed on this site is put into equivalent terms and by default, FF is presented as the best/ultimate/superior model, which means that by default everything else is viewed as inferior. This builds arrogance in many of those FF owners who seem intent on posting derogatory comments about any other format.

If reviews only compared cameras to others within the same format and did not refer at all to other format cameras, it would help reduce the nasty comments from people boasting about their superior light gathering/resolution/DoF/etc. And comments posted on articles that mention another format camera could simply be deleted as off topic, a simply way to moderate.

So, if you review a camera like the E-M1X, what are you supposed to compare it to? It's unique selling point is that it is fundamentally different to every other camera in its format. Olympus seems to have been quite explicit about marketing the E-M1X as a competitor to the full frame D5 and 1DX.

DPR is obviously doing "Is the (Camera X) right for me?" articles as a regular thing (at least for now). DPR editorial staff obviously think this type of article is useful for people out there who might be in market for Camera X. Given this is a camera gear site, I tend to agree. Yet you obviously believe this type of article is a useless waste of time. You must - how could they possible do this type of article without comparing camera (sometimes, like in the case of the E-M1X), necessarily across formats).

I know this may seem radical, but what's to lose? If people want to compare a M43 camera with an APSC or FF format camera, they can just dial up the relevant review and make their own comparison. Comparing cameras across formats seems completely daft to me. To use a car analogy, review articles are always done by class. I've never seen a VW Golf compared with a large 6-cylinder SUV.

It's funny how lots of members here are very quick to argue that m4/3 cameras can produce IQ as good as full frame in most conditions, argue that the smaller sensor is not a deficit and is even a benefit in some respects, it is not fair to say the smaller sensor is inferior in any way (all rightly enough). Yet here you are arguing that that the smaller sensor needs to be treating as some kind of special needs case.

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Aberaeron Veteran Member • Posts: 7,582
It's been snowing heavily....

Judging by the number of snowflakes on view.  

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s_grins
s_grins Forum Pro • Posts: 13,111
Connecting dots directly: “Fear leads to suffering.”

Thorgrem wrote:

This Friday Panasonic officially announced the 10-25 f/1.7 with all the details about prices, weight and so on.

A great new lens for our MFT system with an quite unique range and incredible fast for a zoom. DPR got 2 articles out on the front page to give attention to this launch.

Hand on: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/6726234179/hands-on-with-panasonic-s-10-25mm-f1-7-micro-four-thirds-lens

Press release; https://www.dpreview.com/news/2097346933/panasonic-s-versatile-leica-dg-vario-summilux-10-25mm-f1-7-lens-available-in-july

The articles are just fine, also the video that is done. The problem is the reactions under the articles. Some people are going savage about it. The seize, the price, small sensor. And so on.

Obviously DPR isn't going to do anything about it because it generates a huge amount of clicks.

But this negativity is bad for our system we use and would like to continue to use.

What can we (as a group or as individuals) do about it?

Edit; to make it more clear, this topic isn't made to have the discussion in the 2 articles all over again. The clear question is nog bold.

I will not join any group, and as individual, in this particular case, I'd DO NOTHING. And here is why: the more you do the more harm you do.

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Camera in bag tends to stay in bag...

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 62,460
Re: War is endless, if you want it

Wu Jiaqiu wrote:

TN Args wrote:

Richard Butler wrote:

In the long term, a site with positive engagement is much more attractive to new readers than one with anger and hostility....

We're working on mechanisms to encourage positive contributions, but in the short term, it's not practical for our editorial staff or our moderators to deal with the volume of comments we get, nor try to make subtle judgement calls about who's acting in good faith.

Richard - dpreview.com

Yes, I have heard from DPR forum mods that they feel crippled in their efforts to create a less vile discussion space. Always crippled by the very poor moderator toolkit that this site enables, and sometimes crippled by an admin philosophy that, at least in the past, has favoured the right to free speech over the right to a safe place.

And do not be mistaken: the DPR Forums discussion space is the pits. To mention this in DPR Forums is to buy an argument (to mention anything in DPR Forums is to buy an argument), but go to another photography discussion site and mention DPR Forums and the quality of conversation here, and there is general agreement: it is the pits, and that is often why they left.

Long way to go, Richard. But are you going to take a long time to get there?

cheers

i'd be careful talking about moderation, your post will probably disappear, hopefully your flame of Bob will stay so we can all look back on it with fond memories

He just accused me of being an accuser.

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263, look deader.

Marty4650
Marty4650 Forum Pro • Posts: 15,437
but...
2

Pete_W wrote:

Richard Butler wrote:

Since we don't have the capacity to review and assess every single comment, it's up to each individual to consider whether they're fighting or contributing to the nastiness.

Richard - dpreview.com

In my view, DPReview indirectly encourages this nastiness by presenting almost everything it reviews through the prism of FF. Every other camera system reviewed on this site is put into equivalent terms and by default, FF is presented as the best/ultimate/superior model, which means that by default everything else is viewed as inferior. This builds arrogance in many of those FF owners who seem intent on posting derogatory comments about any other format.

If reviews only compared cameras to others within the same format and did not refer at all to other format cameras, it would help reduce the nasty comments from people boasting about their superior light gathering/resolution/DoF/etc. And comments posted on articles that mention another format camera could simply be deleted as off topic, a simply way to moderate.

I know this may seem radical, but what's to lose? If people want to compare a M43 camera with an APSC or FF format camera, they can just dial up the relevant review and make their own comparison. Comparing cameras across formats seems completely daft to me. To use a car analogy, review articles are always done by class. I've never seen a VW Golf compared with a large 6-cylinder SUV.

This really sounds good, except for one important thing. Dpreview creates a lot of buyers guides to help users make buying decisions, and M4/3 cameras fall into multiple categories. So they need to be compared to other products in the same category, even if they have different sensor sizes.

Shouldn't the Olympus EPL9 and the Panasonic GF10 be considered in the Budget Camera group?  Wouldn't someone looking for a high end action/wildlife camera want to consider an Olympus E-M1X?  Isn't an Olympus E-M5 II in the same product category as a Sony a6700... despite having different sized sensors?

I will admit it would be silly to compare a Panasonic GF10 to a Fuji GFS 50R, but Dpreview never does that sort of thing. Because they truly are in completely different product categories.

And to be honest, the differences between these cameras comes down to build quality, features, and performance at the extremes, not where most amateurs use them. Many amateur photographers have moved up or down in sensor size, and some use multiple different sensor formats.

If you don't need weather sealing and a high resolution mode, then a $500 EM10 is just as good as a $1,000 EM5 for your needs. And something like a Fuji X-T30 or Sony a6400 isn't that much different.

Most new camera buyers just want to know "what can I get for $1,000" or "which camera is best for travel" so comparisons across different sensor sizes is often very appropriate.

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Tommi K1 Senior Member • Posts: 7,192
Re: Respect
5

Pixnat2 wrote:

I just beg to differ that we shouldn't stay away from others, as you said, but instead learn to speak to each other with tolerance and respect.

That can't happen in same room. That is why we have different rooms and then one shared one.

That is where it belongs. But when someone wants to discuss of specific topics, it does not help someone come to talk from different. Instead telling that one to shut up, they can go public room and invite the others there.

Shouldn't be too difficult, as we are all educated people.

It is. Look like how many times equivalence has ruined discussions because someone wanted to be smarter and yet try to act as "polite".

But the premise for this is to accept that nobody holds The Truth, or, saying differently, that everybody's truth is The Truth.

It is question of point view.

Same subject, same time, different perspective. Why equivalence never works as claimed in real world.

Same thing is with opinions.

USA hold attitude that they can go anywhere and act like their way is valid and right. They see all from only their perspective. They want to invade countries, overthrow democratically chosen leaders and governments because they do not like the outcome those would do in other parts of the world, that USA has worked to control.

Why doesn't USA go behind their borders and stay there? No one would attack them. Who would if all their streets would be patrolled by military with tanks and hogs ready to blow whole neighborhood if someone is threatening others! No one would care what the heck they do in their own country. Just leave everyone else be.

Now, can you see what I did?

Instead writing that here, it could be better somewhere else, but as analogy, I think it makes it clear that even if you state just the historical facts and combine with some faith, it will rub someone wrong way, even when making a point.

But the logic is there, don't angst others, they don't you.

So every brand, format and system has own forums, don't go there to talk about others. And then there is common one, where better stay very polite and respectful, and avoid collision.

And then have the argument forum, where such posts can be directed/moved who so loves do so.

And there are humorous and sarcastic posts and you get easily disrespectful behavior and attitude that reflects its echo to communication and it is bad thing.

New Day Rising
New Day Rising Senior Member • Posts: 2,949
Re: It's been snowing heavily....
2

Aberaeron wrote:

Judging by the number of snowflakes on view.

We even have TN Args demanding a DPR safe space 🙄

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Wu Jiaqiu
Wu Jiaqiu Forum Pro • Posts: 24,823
Re: War is endless, if you want it

bobn2 wrote:

Wu Jiaqiu wrote:

TN Args wrote:

Richard Butler wrote:

In the long term, a site with positive engagement is much more attractive to new readers than one with anger and hostility....

We're working on mechanisms to encourage positive contributions, but in the short term, it's not practical for our editorial staff or our moderators to deal with the volume of comments we get, nor try to make subtle judgement calls about who's acting in good faith.

Richard - dpreview.com

Yes, I have heard from DPR forum mods that they feel crippled in their efforts to create a less vile discussion space. Always crippled by the very poor moderator toolkit that this site enables, and sometimes crippled by an admin philosophy that, at least in the past, has favoured the right to free speech over the right to a safe place.

And do not be mistaken: the DPR Forums discussion space is the pits. To mention this in DPR Forums is to buy an argument (to mention anything in DPR Forums is to buy an argument), but go to another photography discussion site and mention DPR Forums and the quality of conversation here, and there is general agreement: it is the pits, and that is often why they left.

Long way to go, Richard. But are you going to take a long time to get there?

cheers

i'd be careful talking about moderation, your post will probably disappear, hopefully your flame of Bob will stay so we can all look back on it with fond memories

He just accused me of being an accuser.

that's quite an accusation of others perceived accusatory natures

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Pixnat2
Pixnat2 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,767
Re: Respect
1

Tommi K1 wrote:

Pixnat2 wrote:

I just beg to differ that we shouldn't stay away from others, as you said, but instead learn to speak to each other with tolerance and respect.

That can't happen in same room. That is why we have different rooms and then one shared one.

Everyone has her/his own view on things, you can't change it.

Trying to proselytize or impose your point of view is useless and create conflicts.

Building walls to isolate from each other has never been the answer.

Instead, respecting other people point of view and communicating with them is a better path to Peace.

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Tommi K1 Senior Member • Posts: 7,192
Re: War is over, if you want it

MrALLCAPS wrote:

THIS.

I've found myself numerous times being name called, then as soon as I retaliate in my own way, without stooping to name-calling, I'M the "Bad guy".

If you retaliate, you are doing the same.

Here in this forum are well known people who are unofficially protected by the moderators. These members (even six figure post counts) can violate the forum rules any way they want without any penalties. You can report them but nothing happens to them, but instead moderators will fix the problem by deleting the posts or complete threads just to destroy evidence.

And this goes repeatedly, no actions are taken against those because they are honored and longtime forum members that DPR officially recognize as exemplary members.

Maybe the moderators are TOO biased to the camera system they're moderating for. Because they allow the name calling, but selective in who they give warnings to.

And yes, there are some that are too sensitive to their sytem. Stop.

Some get banned because they use one wrong word, like "unfaithful". Some never get banned even when they publically attack, insult and remarks multiple other forum members personally.

The real world is, rules do not apply to those who are "above the law". If you are rich, powerful, famous etc, you get far more easily. There is no moral code, no logic, no justice.

And there are even more moderators who are unfit for the task, that are proven to be so and the DPR editor of chief does nothing because "They are volunteers, we need them".

It is like trying to get a corrupted long time politician out of the system, you can't unless you get them to do something extremely terrible, that they know how to hide and they have the people around them protecting them.

In a good system, moderation happens democratically. Example the slashdot use to be great place (before multiple revisions of the site 10 years ago) as constantly random registered people were given moderation points that they could use to vote posts.

If they moderated the thread, they couldn't comment there or they invalidated their own assigned points. So it was "Moderate or Discuss" mentality.

The voting system as well was general, so if someone gave a post -1 flamebait point and someone else gave +2 Insightful and third gave +1 Interesting, it was summed up.

If you violated the moderation, you might lose your access to moderation forever.

You gained karma as registered user and every reader could set their own preference for the post filtering system, quickly to filter out all the negativities they wanted or specific kinds. And it worked extremely well.

And if you had excellent karma, you got + points just from posting, and so on got up in the filter system. But every negative moderation was more heavy to your karma, so you needed to work a lot for the good karma, or lose the good karma very quickly.

DPR has the wrong system, just adding + for a post. It is so bad that I don't even know how many cares to click those. And it is biased, as it should be + and - system. It should based more for the karma. It shouldn't be like a "popular points" but more of a message value. So if there is 5 who likes the post, you don't get +5 if there is 7 who doesn't like and it comes to -2.

Remove the point summer and make it a six scale system, three negative and three positive. You see if it is good or bad.

And copy from the newsgroups the old system where the thread overall points gets calculated as one. So if there are multiple people arguing about and one posts are positive and two are negative, the thread will get marked as negative as it is getting off-topic and thread is hidden automatically from others.

One good way to test communications would be to remove all the nicknames and signatures. Make it as much as possible anonymous. Just the content itself.

Long time users can start to detect specific traits and opinions of others, but at any given time discussion should stay more in topic when moderators see the actual registered names and can punish from abusive behavior, like someone trying to pretend to be different peoples and talking alone.

Adielle
Adielle Senior Member • Posts: 1,754
Collaborate.

Thorgrem wrote:

What can we (as a group or as individuals) do about it?

1. Collaborate and make one big site instead of mu-43.com or four/thirds photo or fourthirds-user.com or other MFT sites.

2. Make a general site like dpreview that's run by people who don't make their money from FUD.

3. Buy dpreview or get a good share of it and get to have a say that regular trolling against non-select groups is not allowed.

4. Keep posting threads like this, but with more relevant and less silly thread titles. Much less effect, but still a bit helpful.

All are easier said than done, of course.

s_grins
s_grins Forum Pro • Posts: 13,111
Re: Respect

Pixnat2 wrote:

Everyone has her/his own view on things, you can't change it.

True

Trying to proselytize or impose your point of view is useless and create conflicts.

Double true

Building walls to isolate from each other has never been the answer.

False: Only after building the walls we can communicate and build bridges without fear.

Instead, respecting other people point of view and communicating with them is a better path to Peace.

Agree.

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Tommi K1 Senior Member • Posts: 7,192
Re: Respect
2

Pixnat2 wrote:

Tommi K1 wrote:

Pixnat2 wrote:

I just beg to differ that we shouldn't stay away from others, as you said, but instead learn to speak to each other with tolerance and respect.

That can't happen in same room. That is why we have different rooms and then one shared one.

Everyone has her/his own view on things, you can't change it.

Trying to proselytize or impose your point of view is useless and create conflicts.

Building walls to isolate from each other has never been the answer.

It has. That is called cultural differences, borders, rules, separation and habits. As well it is called forums and sub-forums.

Even this post that original poster started gets generated to thread, where each thread starts to live its own direction, separated from other threads. Each thread goes to different direction and it is built by different people. If you don't like the thread, ignore it and read another thread, participate to other thread.

THis is easily visible for everyone who use threaded view instead flat view. Where the flat view is one mess, one illogical line of posts where communication is not organized and grouped.

Instead, respecting other people point of view and communicating with them is a better path to Peace.

That requires that everyone agree there are rules to obey, there are topics not to discuss, there are borders not to step over, the habits not to break off.

We have forums for Canon users, split to their mounts and formats.

We have same for Nikon and Sony even.

The m4/3 is special one because it is a system, shared by multiple brands, different kind manufacturers, different kind gear. It is unique kind, something that there is for any other system.

You can take one manufacturer lens, mount it to other manufacturer body, and fly it with third manufacturer drone and control it with a fourth manufacturer software or hardware.

You can take a small body, big body, huge body. You can take small lens, big lens, or huge lens. You can build all kind setups and combinations, expensive, cheap, light or heavy etc.

That is what makes m4/3 so universal and superior system that you have more possibilities than with any other system, and you always stay within single format.

And you are in making error with your own argument. Let me point it to you:

Everyone has her/his own view on things, you can't change it.

Instead, respecting other people point of view and communicating with them is a better path to Peace.

You say that you can't change things, you can't change their point of view and way to see things. Yet you say that others should accept the others way of do things and change as well and discuss with each others about their different ways to do things and change their ways to view things.

That is why it doesn't work. That is why there becomes the separation, different groups etc.

It is totally natural group behavior.

That is as well called politics, you try to get a differently thinking people to work together, and most cases it doesn't work.

If the group A views thing that sunday is the sabbath, and group B believes it is the saturday.

Why you say that other one needs to change their view, while you say that it can't be changed?

If you get both to change their view, it is just reversed and you are exactly same place where you started. So only way would be only to get either other suppressed and change their view, or accept that you can't change their view and let them be separated. The group A can rest on sunday, the B can rest on saturday.

But don't expect to get them both agree that Saturday AND Sunday are both sabbath, because both will see that the other day is wrong to them.

And communicating about it does not help at all. You can't change them.

That is why such people gather among same way thinking groups and they stay away from the other kinds.

They can work together as long they are not trying to change what the other view/thinks. Like you can't get someone to work on the day that they believe is their day of rest. No matter how much you pay them or you say that they can keep then the second day. You are trying to cause conflict in their believes and faith and that is extremely disrespectful even to talk to them about it.

When you travel to another country, another culture, another environment etc, do not think that your way is the right way, or that you can change things better or you have some rights that they don't have.

when in Rome, do as the Romans do

This is m4/3 system forum, that uses 4/3" format. This is not forum for 35mm praises discussions or anything theorizing the size differences with other formats. It is not about other systems, other manufacturers, other brands etc.

There is big difference to say "I wish that Zeiss would make the X lens with native m4/3 mount" than saying "The Zeiss X is much better than the A m4/3 lens, you should change the system".

  1. "The April's mother makes so wonderful apple pie, that I wish my mother could make so good too, said Lisa to Jane"
  2. "The April's mother makes better apple pie than your mother, said Lisa to Jane"
  3. "The April's mother makes better apple pie than our mothers do, said Lisa to Jane"

In the first version, Lisa doesn't by any means demis the Jane's mother, doesn't hurt her feelings. In the second Lisa does direct insult to Jane by saying that Jane's mother is not good baker. And in the third same thing, even when Lisa does try to be nicer by linking that both their mothers are not so good.

If you don't like the cultural rules and laws, do not go there. If you are required to go there, you need to change your attitude, your believes, and do as they do. Do not expect them to change for you, it is you who is need to change.

If you do not want to change for the time period you visit other country, do not leave your country.

If someone has opinion that you can have two harvests in a season, they are wrongly having that expectation in a country that has only one harvest in a season because climate differences.

So which one should change, that someone, or the country?

If someone can lift 85 kg, but other can lift 135 kg, why is the other required to try to lift more than they can?

Eventually you come to other differences, like the wage for the time, capability etc. Like should the one who can lift 135 kg be paid more than one who can lift only 85 kg?

I know I can't change your view that you can't change mine, so respectfully I just stop it here.

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