“Fear is the path to the dark side…fear leads to anger…anger leads to hate…hate leads to suffering.”

Started 5 months ago | Discussions
AshleyMC Regular Member • Posts: 194
Re: Why fear m43? Nothing to fear but fear itself?

iano wrote:

Yes, it is a religious quote.

But while that could imply it is stating the obvious, it does not mean it is not correct.

There people expressing anger and hatred towards a new lens from m43 are obviously afraid of something.

The only way to diffuse this is to placate them that they have nothing to fear. Even adding lenses like this to m43 does not mean everyone is going to leave their traditional SLRs behind.

Never thought camera gear would play such a critical role in certain people's lives.

If one is a big guy at a camera gear company in the current market, likely -- but buyers and consumers?

MrALLCAPS
MrALLCAPS Contributing Member • Posts: 863
Re: War is over, if you want it

AshleyMC wrote:

Richard Butler wrote:

cerich wrote:

Richard Butler wrote:

cerich wrote:

whatever, then turn off commenting for the main page posts and let it go into a forum with a mod and use a "report function".. Right now DPReview is encouraging the anger and lack of civility here and you have more than enough tools to manage except it's obvious that there is no desire to. Someone has made the choice that having DPReview as one of the most unfriendly mainstream forums drives traffic and click thru to parent Amazon.
Try to at least have the courage to admit it

In the long term, a site with positive engagement is much more attractive to new readers than one with anger and hostility. Even if our aim was to drive traffic to Amazon (it isn't), the current state of the comments would not be an effective way to achieve it.

We're working on mechanisms to encourage positive contributions, but in the short term, it's not practical for our editorial staff or our moderators to deal with the volume of comments we get, nor try to make subtle judgement calls about who's acting in good faith.

Richard - dpreview.com

it isn't that hard and I am speaking from a position of knowledge, having been staff/advisor for one of the largest online forums for another activity for over 15 years.
Honestly, given the lack of policing and moderation efforts here, I don't believe you

Your certainty that it's not hard doesn't mirror our experience (I'd be interested to understand the differences, but this isn't likely to be the best place to explore that).

As I say, we're working on ways to encourage more positive interaction, precisely because we recognise that our current moderation system has its limits.

Whether you believe me or not, it should be pretty apparent that a welcoming environment is a better way to encourage an audience than off-putting antagonism between a small minority.

Richard - dpreview.com

The fact that Richard Butler, Technical Editor, offers comments on moderation issues reflects a general management challenge at dpreview.com. Richard and the other editors are 105% occupied with doing product tests and preparing product reviews. Unless you are managed differently behind the scenes, I, for one, do not believe that moderation is part of your job expectations and performance evaluation factors.

The non-forum comments are not being moderated. On the other hand, I have seen argumentative, confrontational and self-serving behaviors of certain forum moderators when they chose to participate in discussions -- who would moderate them?

THIS.

I've found myself numerous times being name called, then as soon as I retaliate in my own way, without stooping to name-calling, I'M the "Bad guy".

Maybe the moderators are TOO biased to the camera system they're moderating for. Because they allow the name calling, but selective in who they give warnings to.

And yes, there are some that are too sensitive to their sytem. Stop.

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cerich
cerich Contributing Member • Posts: 508
Re: War is over, if you want it
4

Richard Butler wrote:

Whether you believe me or not, it should be pretty apparent that a welcoming environment is a better way to encourage an audience than off-putting antagonism between a small minority.

Richard - dpreview.com

on that I agree, and have been amazed since a member here how poorly the environment is managed.  Thus my conclusion that DPReview has to have come to the conclusion that the drama makes clicks and sales for the parent. Drama will drive clicks, however it also drives away newcomers so...

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LoneTree1 Senior Member • Posts: 1,522
Re: Why fear m43? Nothing to fear but fear itself?
1

iano wrote:

Yes, it is a religious quote.

But while that could imply it is stating the obvious, it does not mean it is not correct.

There people expressing anger and hatred towards a new lens from m43 are obviously afraid of something.

Cost.

New Day Rising
New Day Rising Senior Member • Posts: 2,949
Re: Why fear m43? Nothing to fear but fear itself?
2

iano wrote:

Yes, it is a religious quote.

But while that could imply it is stating the obvious, it does not mean it is not correct.

There people expressing anger and hatred towards a new lens from m43 are obviously afraid of something.

The only way to diffuse this is to placate them that they have nothing to fear. Even adding lenses like this to m43 does not mean everyone is going to leave their traditional SLRs behind.

All this talk of hatred, anger and fear is quite bizarre. We are not talking about religious extremism or intolerance, racism, war, genocide, sectarian violence here. This is all about people expressing differences of opinion about the value of consumer electronic items.

So what if someone makes a negative comment about the size of the latest lens that 99.999% of the world's population could never afford and even fewer would ever have any interest in owning? It's not like that lens has some inherent dignity or sacred value that needs to be protected. A lens has no emotional sensibility that needs to be protected. And neither should any person just because they happen to own or want one. Some people here need to find an identity and measure of self-worth in something other than the size of their sensor.

The paranoia, tribalism and emotional attachment to idols and icons of plastic, metal and glass is pretty mind-blowing.

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ekaton Contributing Member • Posts: 929
Re: Give us updated sensors and electronics, Olympus.
1

Imagine an EM1 M3 and EM 5 III with a 30 MP sensor with slightly better DR and high iso and hand held high res and all the anxiety will be gone. The glass is great, the sensors are a little lacking these days and the electronics need updating to the newest standard.

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LoneTree1 Senior Member • Posts: 1,522
Re: Why fear m43? Nothing to fear but fear itself?
1

New Day Rising wrote:

The paranoia, tribalism and emotional attachment to idols and icons of plastic, metal and glass is pretty mind-blowing.

The investment of emotions in inanimate objects to that extreme kind of hints that perhaps some more tangible is missing from someone's life.

RedDog Steve
RedDog Steve Senior Member • Posts: 1,787
Re: War is over, if you want it
1

Richard Butler wrote:

 . . .
Since we don't have the capacity to review and assess every single comment, it's up to each individual to consider whether they're fighting or contributing to the nastiness.

Richard - dpreview.com

The issue doesn't arise from single comments.
It's the repeat offenders with an agenda and the 'equivalence vigilantes'.

What little capacity exists could be more narrowly targeted at the bad actors.

-- hide signature --

I'm not a perfectionist, I'm a precisionist.
rd

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New Day Rising
New Day Rising Senior Member • Posts: 2,949
Re: War is over, if you want it
2

RedDog Steve wrote:

Richard Butler wrote:

. . .
Since we don't have the capacity to review and assess every single comment, it's up to each individual to consider whether they're fighting or contributing to the nastiness.

Richard - dpreview.com

The issue doesn't arise from single comments.
It's the repeat offenders with an agenda and the 'equivalence vigilantes'.

What little capacity exists could be more narrowly targeted at the bad actors.

Equivalence is a topic that causes a lot of confusion. Even those with a lot of technical knowledge can't seem to agree. As Richard said, DPR has published articles about it to try and prevent the disagreements but it still happens.

Best not to worry about it.

Unless you really think members should be sanctioned for having a different understanding from yourself about a confusing technical issue.

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Pixnat2
Pixnat2 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,767
Re: Respect
2

Tommi K1 wrote:

Pixnat2 wrote:

And in the end, I'll add :

Enjoy your chosen system and respect other people's choices.

If someone choses FF, respect it.

....and don't go to FF forums to talk about m4/3. (or any other)

If someone choses m43, respect it.

....and don't go to m4/3 forums to talk about FF. (or any other)

Respect.

Exactly.

Cross format talking wouln't be a problem if done respectfully.

Those discussions, when constructive, are very helpful for a lot of people.

Just dreaming ...

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NCV
NCV Veteran Member • Posts: 9,522
Re: Respect

Pixnat2 wrote:

NCV wrote:

Pixnat2 wrote:

Tommi K1 wrote:

Velocity of Sound wrote:

Pete_W wrote:

My guess is that many FF camera users have a nagging insecurity that a smaller and generally less expensive format can perform so well which makes their investment look silly.

Everyone is insecure. We all want to feel like we've bought the best that our money can buy.

Do we?

I often purposely buy things that are "inferior" to something else, not because price, but because I am interested to try new things, test things and simple curiosity that what value does something offer as it's purpose.

Like I purchased E-P2 and original 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6 as I wanted to know what kind quality 12 Mpix 4/3" sensors can offer and how does the camera handle by is software, is logic, its design etc.

For same reason I purchased E-M5 and 12-50mm to company it. But that had as well a collector value for me, the original OM-D.

After 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO I wanted to know how does the R variant differ from it. And then 17mm f/2.8 as it got so much negativity.

I purchased Sony A7r II used as friend claimed that m4/3 can't do so well as the Sony and she was going to dump Canon for Sony. She got to use it for our week trip and then compare results that we both took on same places, only to find herself to buy m4/3 instead.

If I would be insecure, I wouldn't use m4/3, instead I would use something that others want and admire. And nothing in the camera market is such a thing like a "Full Frame" is.

But one and you are going to get amazing photographs as the full frame takes so amazing photos. You have so wide dynamic range that you can recover shadows or highlights like no other system. You get more bang to your money compared to medium format. The full frame is the standard, hence crop factor 1x. The most advanced technology is in the Sony full frame sensors and full frame lenses are sharpest that you can get, they cut your paper when printing. The full frame has tons of resolution so you are not limited in cropping. The Sony full frame allows you to use any legacy lens so you get great budget savings there. When you get full frame no one is going to say that you take bad photographs because you have best format there is. Remember, it is 864mm²!

Or how about being rational. Check that what are your requirements for camera settings, your use of ISO, F-stop and shutter speed. What kind a output you do, what are the requirements there.

Analyze all that, what proportion of the photos are impossible, difficult, challenging, easy, not a problem, with different formats?

What field of view, DOF and shutter speed you can have with a given system?

Build a few setups that you do require from all systems you could use. Compare setups weight, size, price, cost of service, service times, spare and rent availability etc.

Finally, take the gear for real tests, do comparisons not in sake of comparison but for production of the final image. Produce the final images and compare those. And do that as well by using third party opinions on blind tests.

If you don't have camera with you, or the lens with you, you can't take photos you want. If you can't service the tools, you can lose more money that you put to buy it. If you, or almost no one else can't spot the difference in image quality, does it matter?

And in the end, I'll add :

Enjoy your chosen system and respect other people's choices.

If someone choses FF, respect it.

If someone choses m43, respect it.

Respect.

I just use both M43 and FF as well as my cell phone. All do a great job when the format suits the photo or even when it does not.

Agree. I use 3 systems plus sometimes my phone, and enjoy this diversity. All give me different opportunities to take photos, and I find this very stimulating 😊

Visual skills are usually the biggest problem with pictures I see on forums like this.

Yup. It's mainly focused on gear, not skills.

But from time to time there are some very skilled people who post awesome pictures too, hopefully.

In fact we can see some great work on the weekly thread here and in some other threads.

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iano Senior Member • Posts: 1,780
Re: Why fear m43? Nothing to fear but fear itself?

LoneTree1 wrote:

iano wrote:

Yes, it is a religious quote.

But while that could imply it is stating the obvious, it does not mean it is not correct.

There people expressing anger and hatred towards a new lens from m43 are obviously afraid of something.

Cost.

Funny... but ,Nope.... most of the comments the op was referring to are from people who dont even own m43.

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iano Senior Member • Posts: 1,780
Re: Why fear m43? Nothing to fear but fear itself?

New Day Rising wrote:

iano wrote:

Yes, it is a religious quote.

But while that could imply it is stating the obvious, it does not mean it is not correct.

There people expressing anger and hatred towards a new lens from m43 are obviously afraid of something.

The only way to diffuse this is to placate them that they have nothing to fear. Even adding lenses like this to m43 does not mean everyone is going to leave their traditional SLRs behind.

All this talk of hatred, anger and fear is quite bizarre. We are not talking about religious extremism or intolerance, racism, war, genocide, sectarian violence here. This is all about people expressing differences of opinion about the value of consumer electronic items.

So what if someone makes a negative comment about the size of the latest lens that 99.999% of the world's population could never afford and even fewer would ever have any interest in owning?

That would be only 700,000 people who could afford the lens

Bit of a deviation from the intent of your post...but applying like a drake equation is an interesting idea.

Number who could afford is way more....of course then reduce by those interested in photography... another reduction for the perhaps 10% of those who have m43..... I wonder how many copies of lens like this might actually sell?

It's not like that lens has some inherent dignity or sacred value that needs to be protected. A lens has no emotional sensibility that needs to be protected. And neither should any person just because they happen to own or want one. Some people here need to find an identity and measure of self-worth in something other than the size of their sensor.

The paranoia, tribalism and emotional attachment to idols and icons of plastic, metal and glass is pretty mind-blowing.

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Chris Noble
Chris Noble Veteran Member • Posts: 3,194
Your problem is DPR demographics
9

Richard Butler wrote:

Your certainty that it's not hard doesn't mirror our experience (I'd be interested to understand the differences, but this isn't likely to be the best place to explore that).

Most DPR equipment commenters are (i) old (ii) guys -- a subset of humanity that is often in a bad mood.

As I say, we're working on ways to encourage more positive interaction, precisely because we recognise that our current moderation system has its limits.

Whether you believe me or not, it should be pretty apparent that a welcoming environment is a better way to encourage an audience than off-putting antagonism between a small minority.

Richard - dpreview.com

Your efforts are appreciated!

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Pixnat2
Pixnat2 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,767
The Digital Kindergarten
2

We sometimes should take a step back and look about our behavior.

The "Mine is better than Yours" mentality is appalling.

Kidergarten level.

We teach our children to respect others, but make the opposite online.

Let's show the example instead of regressing....

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 62,461
Re: Respect

Tommi K1 wrote:

Pixnat2 wrote:

And in the end, I'll add :

Enjoy your chosen system and respect other people's choices.

If someone choses FF, respect it.

....and don't go to FF forums to talk about m4/3. (or any other)

If someone choses m43, respect it.

....and don't go to m4/3 forums to talk about FF. (or any other)

Doesn't seem to go down too badly:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62732624

-- hide signature --

263, look deader.

TN Args
TN Args Veteran Member • Posts: 8,518
Re: The Digital Kindergarten

Pixnat2 wrote:

We sometimes should take a step back and look about our behavior.

The "Mine is better than Yours" mentality is appalling.

Kidergarten level.

We teach our children to respect others, but make the opposite online.

Let's show the example instead of regressing....

Let's bracket Bob-The-Accuser's post with yours.

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Raist3d Forum Pro • Posts: 39,703
A better question: why we should?
2

I don't agree with your premises. I don't think the main market is DPReview forum roamers. Some people don't like the lens. So?

We is also a lot of people, best to speak for one self.

As for what can be really done anyway- nothing.

-- hide signature --

Raist3d/Ricardo (Photographer, software dev.)- I photograph black cats in coal mines at night...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” - George Orwell

TN Args
TN Args Veteran Member • Posts: 8,518
War is endless, if you want it
2

Richard Butler wrote:

In the long term, a site with positive engagement is much more attractive to new readers than one with anger and hostility....

We're working on mechanisms to encourage positive contributions, but in the short term, it's not practical for our editorial staff or our moderators to deal with the volume of comments we get, nor try to make subtle judgement calls about who's acting in good faith.

Richard - dpreview.com

Yes, I have heard from DPR forum mods that they feel crippled in their efforts to create a less vile discussion space. Always crippled by the very poor moderator toolkit that this site enables, and sometimes crippled by an admin philosophy that, at least in the past, has favoured the right to free speech over the right to a safe place.

And do not be mistaken: the DPR Forums discussion space is the pits. To mention this in DPR Forums is to buy an argument (to mention anything in DPR Forums is to buy an argument), but go to another photography discussion site and mention DPR Forums and the quality of conversation here, and there is general agreement: it is the pits, and that is often why they left.

Long way to go, Richard. But are you going to take a long time to get there?

cheers

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Pixnat2
Pixnat2 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,767
Re: The Digital Kindergarten
10

TN Args wrote:

Pixnat2 wrote:

We sometimes should take a step back and look about our behavior.

The "Mine is better than Yours" mentality is appalling.

Kidergarten level.

We teach our children to respect others, but make the opposite online.

Let's show the example instead of regressing....

Let's bracket Bob-The-Accuser's post with yours.

TN, my post applies exactly to the kind of remark you just made.

Take a step back and think : what is the goal of your post?

Belittle other people.

C'mon, you can do better than this!

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