“Fear is the path to the dark side…fear leads to anger…anger leads to hate…hate leads to suffering.”

Started 6 months ago | Discussions
Wu Jiaqiu
Wu Jiaqiu Forum Pro • Posts: 24,983
Re: Respect

NCV wrote:

Visual skills are usually the biggest problem with pictures I see on forums like this.

i can see what you mean....see what i did there

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Richard Butler
Richard Butler dpreview Admin • Posts: 2,700
War is over, if you want it
21

Thorgrem wrote:

As DPR doesn't give a sh*t about all this negativity on the front page with MFT articles, they sure don't mind that the front page becomes such a nasty toxic place in all the articles that people avoid it altogether.

That's absolutely not the case. The challenge is: 'what to do about it?' And that's not nearly so easy as you might think.

For every comment saying "This is a 20-50mm F3.4 equiv" (which is true, but not necessarily helpful), there's another saying "it's still F1.7 in terms of exposure" (which is equally true, but not any more helpful). Or one saying "it's only F3.4 equiv in terms of DoF" (which is untrue, and hence not at all helpful).

Where's the line between reasonable comment and antagonism? Even if we could all agree on that, it's not possible to police every single comment.

We tried to publish an article that tested and explained equivalence specifically to try to defuse these arguments (because equivalence doesn't favour one format over another or dictate what's right for you: at worst it highlights the size/price/IQ balance of each system, but that's there whether you care to look or not).

A rational response to "it's a 20-50mm F3.4 equiv" might be "Yes, but there aren't any such lenses, much less ones with the really impressive MTF curves Panasonic is showing." or "If such a lens existed, lovely, but would it have all the video and gimbal-friendly features that this lens has?".

But perhaps the most astute response might be to think 'sure, so what?' and then not rise to the bait by responding.

Since we don't have the capacity to review and assess every single comment, it's up to each individual to consider whether they're fighting or contributing to the nastiness.

Richard - dpreview.com

MOD Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 38,921
”Unaffordable” exotics have their place in the M4/3 system
1

LoneTree1 wrote:

Anyone with an average income who ruminates on not being able to afford a Ferrari is likely mentally-unstable.

I think that this is fair comment but people like to read about Ferraris in magazines without complaining that they cannot afford one in their wildest dreams.  My analogy is that if complaints are made about “unaffordable” lenses made by any manufacturer (Be it Sony, Canon, Nikon, Olympus, even Panasonic) then it is much the same issue.

We should simply bathe ourselves in the wonder that such lenses can be made and offered for sale and understand that our “f2.8” is quite a lot cheaper, more versatile, and quite good enough for our purposes.

So what is a stop and a half, or even a stop if we wish to carp, for a whole lot more money to get something unique and cutting edge for the M4/3 system between friends?

We are not forced to buy these exotic lenses any more than we are forced to buy these cutting edge lenses when their purpose is more cutting edge than we might ever need.

In Australia this is known as the “tall poppy syndrome” where those that might show ostentatious wealth need cutting down to “everyday” size.

Some people even take great delight in demonstrating that their mobile phone camera can take “just as good images” as our relatively humble M4/3 cameras

So instead of complaining that “unaffordable”, heavy, and equivalence-challenged lenses are made just think “extraordinary what M4/3 can offer ... but not for me” and pass on very glad that M4/3 already offers about 100 lenses in all sizes and price ranges and surely if i get to own 10% of them in time I will be very well equipped indeed.

So the “unaffordable exotics” are there to show those that like to own the very best gear that they need not leave M4/3 to get their hands on the cutting edge lenses that most “normal” people would never make themselves afford.

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Tom Caldwell

Pixnat2
Pixnat2 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,767
Re: Respect

NCV wrote:

Pixnat2 wrote:

Tommi K1 wrote:

Velocity of Sound wrote:

Pete_W wrote:

My guess is that many FF camera users have a nagging insecurity that a smaller and generally less expensive format can perform so well which makes their investment look silly.

Everyone is insecure. We all want to feel like we've bought the best that our money can buy.

Do we?

I often purposely buy things that are "inferior" to something else, not because price, but because I am interested to try new things, test things and simple curiosity that what value does something offer as it's purpose.

Like I purchased E-P2 and original 14-42mm f/3.5-5.6 as I wanted to know what kind quality 12 Mpix 4/3" sensors can offer and how does the camera handle by is software, is logic, its design etc.

For same reason I purchased E-M5 and 12-50mm to company it. But that had as well a collector value for me, the original OM-D.

After 40-150mm f/2.8 PRO I wanted to know how does the R variant differ from it. And then 17mm f/2.8 as it got so much negativity.

I purchased Sony A7r II used as friend claimed that m4/3 can't do so well as the Sony and she was going to dump Canon for Sony. She got to use it for our week trip and then compare results that we both took on same places, only to find herself to buy m4/3 instead.

If I would be insecure, I wouldn't use m4/3, instead I would use something that others want and admire. And nothing in the camera market is such a thing like a "Full Frame" is.

But one and you are going to get amazing photographs as the full frame takes so amazing photos. You have so wide dynamic range that you can recover shadows or highlights like no other system. You get more bang to your money compared to medium format. The full frame is the standard, hence crop factor 1x. The most advanced technology is in the Sony full frame sensors and full frame lenses are sharpest that you can get, they cut your paper when printing. The full frame has tons of resolution so you are not limited in cropping. The Sony full frame allows you to use any legacy lens so you get great budget savings there. When you get full frame no one is going to say that you take bad photographs because you have best format there is. Remember, it is 864mm²!

Or how about being rational. Check that what are your requirements for camera settings, your use of ISO, F-stop and shutter speed. What kind a output you do, what are the requirements there.

Analyze all that, what proportion of the photos are impossible, difficult, challenging, easy, not a problem, with different formats?

What field of view, DOF and shutter speed you can have with a given system?

Build a few setups that you do require from all systems you could use. Compare setups weight, size, price, cost of service, service times, spare and rent availability etc.

Finally, take the gear for real tests, do comparisons not in sake of comparison but for production of the final image. Produce the final images and compare those. And do that as well by using third party opinions on blind tests.

If you don't have camera with you, or the lens with you, you can't take photos you want. If you can't service the tools, you can lose more money that you put to buy it. If you, or almost no one else can't spot the difference in image quality, does it matter?

And in the end, I'll add :

Enjoy your chosen system and respect other people's choices.

If someone choses FF, respect it.

If someone choses m43, respect it.

Respect.

I just use both M43 and FF as well as my cell phone. All do a great job when the format suits the photo or even when it does not.

Agree. I use 3 systems plus sometimes my phone, and enjoy this diversity. All give me different opportunities to take photos, and I find this very stimulating 😊

Visual skills are usually the biggest problem with pictures I see on forums like this.

Yup. It's mainly  focused on gear, not skills.

But from time to time there are some very skilled people who post awesome pictures too, hopefully.

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MOD Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 38,921
The mundane trolly load of groceries ...

Aberaeron wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

Aberaeron wrote:

LoneTree1 wrote:

Anyone with an average income who ruminates on not being able to afford a Ferrari is likely mentally-unstable.

And probably a cow or bull.

Maybe a llama?

Andrew

Could be. Poor llamas can't afford Ferraris any more than average bovines.

Ruminating in a Ferrari with a trolley load of groceries and a couple of parking dings in the doors is a delicious thought ....  You could be thinking that the girlfriend could walk home or catch a taxi as there was no room left for her ... or that fixing those door dings might force you to cancel the order for that expensive M4/3 lens that has just been announced.

In more practical terms ... might simply be wondering where the next lease instalment might be coming from ....

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Tom Caldwell

Aberaeron Veteran Member • Posts: 7,651
Re: The mundane trolly load of groceries ...

Tom Caldwell wrote:

Aberaeron wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

Aberaeron wrote:

LoneTree1 wrote:

Anyone with an average income who ruminates on not being able to afford a Ferrari is likely mentally-unstable.

And probably a cow or bull.

Maybe a llama?

Andrew

Could be. Poor llamas can't afford Ferraris any more than average bovines.

Ruminating in a Ferrari with a trolley load of groceries and a couple of parking dings in the doors is a delicious thought .... You could be thinking that the girlfriend could walk home or catch a taxi as there was no room left for her ... or that fixing those door dings might force you to cancel the order for that expensive M4/3 lens that has just been announced.

In more practical terms ... might simply be wondering where the next lease instalment might be coming from ....

It's enough to make a poor llama spit, it really is.

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MOD Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 38,921
Re: War is over, if you want it To be
2

Well said Richard.

Unfortunately M4/3 is very sensitive to equivalence arguments and easily baited.

Best advice to to ignore the arguments and not get involved.  They have already been done to death.

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Tom Caldwell

MOD Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 38,921
Re: The mundane trolly load of groceries ...

Aberaeron wrote:

Tom Caldwell wrote:

Aberaeron wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

Aberaeron wrote:

LoneTree1 wrote:

Anyone with an average income who ruminates on not being able to afford a Ferrari is likely mentally-unstable.

And probably a cow or bull.

Maybe a llama?

Andrew

Could be. Poor llamas can't afford Ferraris any more than average bovines.

Ruminating in a Ferrari with a trolley load of groceries and a couple of parking dings in the doors is a delicious thought .... You could be thinking that the girlfriend could walk home or catch a taxi as there was no room left for her ... or that fixing those door dings might force you to cancel the order for that expensive M4/3 lens that has just been announced.

In more practical terms ... might simply be wondering where the next lease instalment might be coming from ....

It's enough to make a poor llama spit, it really is.

Fair’s fair I would not call them “Llamas” - as far as I know no Llama has ever been seen riding in a Ferrari .....  Might be interesting though .... with the top down of course .....

Who knows what is hiding behind those sunglasses.

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Tom Caldwell

cerich
cerich Contributing Member • Posts: 508
Re: War is over, if you want it
6

Richard Butler wrote:

Where's the line between reasonable comment and antagonism? Even if we could all agree on that, it's not possible to police every single comment.

Since we don't have the capacity to review and assess every single comment, it's up to each individual to consider whether they're fighting or contributing to the nastiness.

Richard - dpreview.com

whatever, then turn off commenting for the main page posts and let it go into a forum with a mod and use a "report function".. Right now DPReview is encouraging the anger and lack of civility here and you have more than enough tools to manage except it's obvious that there is no desire to. Someone has made the choice that having DPReview as one of the most unfriendly mainstream forums drives traffic and click thru to parent Amazon.
Try to at least have the courage to admit it

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Richard Butler
Richard Butler dpreview Admin • Posts: 2,700
Re: War is over, if you want it
4

cerich wrote:

whatever, then turn off commenting for the main page posts and let it go into a forum with a mod and use a "report function".. Right now DPReview is encouraging the anger and lack of civility here and you have more than enough tools to manage except it's obvious that there is no desire to. Someone has made the choice that having DPReview as one of the most unfriendly mainstream forums drives traffic and click thru to parent Amazon.
Try to at least have the courage to admit it

In the long term, a site with positive engagement is much more attractive to new readers than one with anger and hostility. Even if our aim was to drive traffic to Amazon (it isn't), the current state of the comments would not be an effective way to achieve it.

We're working on mechanisms to encourage positive contributions, but in the short term, it's not practical for our editorial staff or our moderators to deal with the volume of comments we get, nor try to make subtle judgement calls about who's acting in good faith.

Richard - dpreview.com

Aberaeron Veteran Member • Posts: 7,651
Re: The mundane trolly load of groceries ...

Tom Caldwell wrote:

Aberaeron wrote:

Tom Caldwell wrote:

Aberaeron wrote:

ahaslett wrote:

Aberaeron wrote:

LoneTree1 wrote:

Anyone with an average income who ruminates on not being able to afford a Ferrari is likely mentally-unstable.

And probably a cow or bull.

Maybe a llama?

Andrew

Could be. Poor llamas can't afford Ferraris any more than average bovines.

Ruminating in a Ferrari with a trolley load of groceries and a couple of parking dings in the doors is a delicious thought .... You could be thinking that the girlfriend could walk home or catch a taxi as there was no room left for her ... or that fixing those door dings might force you to cancel the order for that expensive M4/3 lens that has just been announced.

In more practical terms ... might simply be wondering where the next lease instalment might be coming from ....

It's enough to make a poor llama spit, it really is.

Fair’s fair I would not call them “Llamas” - as far as I know no Llama has ever been seen riding in a Ferrari ..... Might be interesting though .... with the top down of course .....

Who knows what is hiding behind those sunglasses.

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MOD Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 38,921
I can use a wonder lens on all my M4/3 bodies forever ...
1

Marty4650 wrote:

You might be perceiving a lot of "negativity" about this lens, but I don't see it that way.

I see three responses:

  1. Great lens, and I want one
  2. Great lens, but it isn't for me
  3. Great lens, but it was a mistake to make it rather than some other lens I want

The one response you just don't see is "not good enough, it is a piece of junk." That is a response that I would personally consider negative, even if deserved.

The equivalence trolling is uncalled for.

I suppose you could consider that third group as being negative, but they really are a small minority of M4/3 users.

They are not even necessarily M4/3 users.

They are simply expressing their frustration about a product they won't buy because it fails to meet their needs or their budget,

With 100 or so M4/3 lenses about already and well stocked with “more affordable” lenses those that design and make for the M4/3 must find it increasingly difficult to make new “affordable” lenses for remaining niche purposes.

Some of the best lenses available for the Canon EF lenses were designed as far back as the 1990’s and even then were just re-hashed FD mount lenses.  So why must we be constantly titillated by updated lenses for M4/3 - it seems that some seem to simply wish that the same lens type be re-issued every few years with some (somehow) incorporated new features - as it it were a new camera body (smile).  This thing simply is not necessary for lenses except to  issue a new model which was mechanically deficient in some way when first made.  The need to replace dwindling stocks is probably a good opportunity to make a necessary mechanical change.  Making a MkII so as to allow better integration for dual stabilisation is one - hardly necessary for the MkI owners to rush to upgrade though.

And these same responses are true for every lens created for every system.

Not really - Nikon and Canon - now Sony and presumably Fuji have ”Unaffordable” lenses in their lens suite and only affordable by the well heeled or professionals and do not seem to bring the same cries of anguish as exotic lenses released for the M4/3 system.  This is the cry of what threatens to be relegated as a “poor man’s system” unless Olympus and Panasonic keep issuing fringe area exotics to round off their already substantial (mostly affordable) lens suites.

Most of us are thrilled to see yet another wonderful lens added to a long list of wonderful lenses. And even though some of us won't want them it, or be able to afford it we still are glad it exists.

I agree with the “most” - but there is a smaller minority that can make quite a ruckus about it.  Hey GM just made another Cadillac and I cannot afford it ... (?) Simply does not make sense.  If you were buying into one of the new FF ML systems with only a handful of expensive lenses on offer then complaining about only unaffordable lenses being offered might make some sense.  But why waste a cheap lens on a larger sensor might be easily related to the other issue that a great lens must make the 4/3 sensor perform better. And this is a lot more subtle than size, weight and expense - or an equivalence challenged perspective.

Someone will want it and buy it, and it's existence makes the entire system more appealing.

Yes, I am willing to buy some of the exotic lenses if and when I can afford one and remain continually surprised at just how much these lenses can improve the images caught be them.  It is not just a stop or even and half stop - these lenses are very well designed and I presume that they use the best glass as well.

One of the wonders of M4/3 for me is my purchase of a Nocticron 42.5/1.2 for use on a GM1 (!) initially now over five years ago.  Amazing what such a lens can do for one’s photography.  Of course the Olympus 45/1.8 and Panasonic 42.5/1.7 are both tiny compact wonders in their own right and very affordable. But do I choose to use a 45/1.8 when its quality of compact and capable features are best served.

But it was the Nocticron that locked me into “knowing” that the M4/3 system was capable of great things.  And of course I can “still” get to use it on my G9

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Tom Caldwell

MOD Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 38,921
Re: War is over, if you want it

Richard Butler wrote:

cerich wrote:

whatever, then turn off commenting for the main page posts and let it go into a forum with a mod and use a "report function".. Right now DPReview is encouraging the anger and lack of civility here and you have more than enough tools to manage except it's obvious that there is no desire to. Someone has made the choice that having DPReview as one of the most unfriendly mainstream forums drives traffic and click thru to parent Amazon.
Try to at least have the courage to admit it

In the long term, a site with positive engagement is much more attractive to new readers than one with anger and hostility. Even if our aim was to drive traffic to Amazon (it isn't), the current state of the comments would not be an effective way to achieve it.

We're working on mechanisms to encourage positive contributions, but in the short term, it's not practical for our editorial staff or our moderators to deal with the volume of comments we get, nor try to make subtle judgement calls about who's acting in good faith.

Richard - dpreview.com

Respond with humour and refuse to be baited?

I don’t think tribal attitudes by way of responses work well.

-- hide signature --

Tom Caldwell

cerich
cerich Contributing Member • Posts: 508
Re: War is over, if you want it
2

Richard Butler wrote:

cerich wrote:

whatever, then turn off commenting for the main page posts and let it go into a forum with a mod and use a "report function".. Right now DPReview is encouraging the anger and lack of civility here and you have more than enough tools to manage except it's obvious that there is no desire to. Someone has made the choice that having DPReview as one of the most unfriendly mainstream forums drives traffic and click thru to parent Amazon.
Try to at least have the courage to admit it

In the long term, a site with positive engagement is much more attractive to new readers than one with anger and hostility. Even if our aim was to drive traffic to Amazon (it isn't), the current state of the comments would not be an effective way to achieve it.

We're working on mechanisms to encourage positive contributions, but in the short term, it's not practical for our editorial staff or our moderators to deal with the volume of comments we get, nor try to make subtle judgement calls about who's acting in good faith.

Richard - dpreview.com

it isn't that hard and I am speaking from a position of knowledge, having been staff/advisor for one of the largest online forums for another activity  for over 15 years.
Honestly, given the lack of policing and moderation efforts here, I don't believe you

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Richard Butler
Richard Butler dpreview Admin • Posts: 2,700
Re: War is over, if you want it
3

cerich wrote:

Richard Butler wrote:

cerich wrote:

whatever, then turn off commenting for the main page posts and let it go into a forum with a mod and use a "report function".. Right now DPReview is encouraging the anger and lack of civility here and you have more than enough tools to manage except it's obvious that there is no desire to. Someone has made the choice that having DPReview as one of the most unfriendly mainstream forums drives traffic and click thru to parent Amazon.
Try to at least have the courage to admit it

In the long term, a site with positive engagement is much more attractive to new readers than one with anger and hostility. Even if our aim was to drive traffic to Amazon (it isn't), the current state of the comments would not be an effective way to achieve it.

We're working on mechanisms to encourage positive contributions, but in the short term, it's not practical for our editorial staff or our moderators to deal with the volume of comments we get, nor try to make subtle judgement calls about who's acting in good faith.

Richard - dpreview.com

it isn't that hard and I am speaking from a position of knowledge, having been staff/advisor for one of the largest online forums for another activity for over 15 years.
Honestly, given the lack of policing and moderation efforts here, I don't believe you

Your certainty that it's not hard doesn't mirror our experience (I'd be interested to understand the differences, but this isn't likely to be the best place to explore that).

As I say, we're working on ways to encourage more positive interaction, precisely because we recognise that our current moderation system has its limits.

Whether you believe me or not, it should be pretty apparent that a welcoming environment is a better way to encourage an audience than off-putting antagonism between a small minority.

Richard - dpreview.com

iano Senior Member • Posts: 1,787
Why fear m43? Nothing to fear but fear itself?

Your subject is interesting:  “Fear is the path to the dark side…fear leads to anger…anger leads to hate…hate leads to suffering.”

The posts you question do seem to at very least express fear if not hate of m43.

Why do people fear a format?  I guess that leads to anger and hate of the format.

How do you stop people who fear you?  Tell them it will be ok, m43 is unlikely to kill of their favourite format.  Tell them not to be afraid.

Thorgrem wrote:

This Friday Panasonic officially announced the 10-25 f/1.7 with all the details about prices, weight and so on.

A great new lens for our MFT system with an quite unique range and incredible fast for a zoom. DPR got 2 articles out on the front page to give attention to this launch.

Hand on: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/6726234179/hands-on-with-panasonic-s-10-25mm-f1-7-micro-four-thirds-lens

Press release; https://www.dpreview.com/news/2097346933/panasonic-s-versatile-leica-dg-vario-summilux-10-25mm-f1-7-lens-available-in-july

The articles are just fine, also the video that is done. The problem is the reactions under the articles. Some people are going savage about it. The seize, the price, small sensor. And so on.

Obviously DPR isn't going to do anything about it because it generates a huge amount of clicks.

But this negativity is bad for our system we use and would like to continue to use.

What can we (as a group or as individuals) do about it?

Edit; to make it more clear, this topic isn't made to have the discussion in the 2 articles all over again. The clear question is nog bold.

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(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 7,274
Re: Respect
1

Pixnat2 wrote:

And in the end, I'll add :

Enjoy your chosen system and respect other people's choices.

If someone choses FF, respect it.

....and don't go to FF forums to talk about m4/3. (or any other)

If someone choses m43, respect it.

....and don't go to m4/3 forums to talk about FF. (or any other)

Respect.

Exactly.

(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 7,274
Re: Why fear m43? Nothing to fear but fear itself?

iano wrote:

Your subject is interesting: “Fear is the path to the dark side…fear leads to anger…anger leads to hate…hate leads to suffering.”

AshleyMC Regular Member • Posts: 254
Re: War is over, if you want it

Richard Butler wrote:

cerich wrote:

Richard Butler wrote:

cerich wrote:

whatever, then turn off commenting for the main page posts and let it go into a forum with a mod and use a "report function".. Right now DPReview is encouraging the anger and lack of civility here and you have more than enough tools to manage except it's obvious that there is no desire to. Someone has made the choice that having DPReview as one of the most unfriendly mainstream forums drives traffic and click thru to parent Amazon.
Try to at least have the courage to admit it

In the long term, a site with positive engagement is much more attractive to new readers than one with anger and hostility. Even if our aim was to drive traffic to Amazon (it isn't), the current state of the comments would not be an effective way to achieve it.

We're working on mechanisms to encourage positive contributions, but in the short term, it's not practical for our editorial staff or our moderators to deal with the volume of comments we get, nor try to make subtle judgement calls about who's acting in good faith.

Richard - dpreview.com

it isn't that hard and I am speaking from a position of knowledge, having been staff/advisor for one of the largest online forums for another activity for over 15 years.
Honestly, given the lack of policing and moderation efforts here, I don't believe you

Your certainty that it's not hard doesn't mirror our experience (I'd be interested to understand the differences, but this isn't likely to be the best place to explore that).

As I say, we're working on ways to encourage more positive interaction, precisely because we recognise that our current moderation system has its limits.

Whether you believe me or not, it should be pretty apparent that a welcoming environment is a better way to encourage an audience than off-putting antagonism between a small minority.

Richard - dpreview.com

The fact that Richard Butler, Technical Editor, offers comments on moderation issues reflects a general management challenge at dpreview.com. Richard and the other editors are 105% occupied with doing product tests and preparing product reviews. Unless you are managed differently behind the scenes, I, for one, do not believe that moderation is part of your job expectations and performance evaluation factors.

The non-forum comments are not being moderated. On the other hand, I have seen argumentative, confrontational and self-serving behaviors of certain forum moderators when they chose to participate in discussions -- who would moderate them?

iano Senior Member • Posts: 1,787
Re: Why fear m43? Nothing to fear but fear itself?

Yes, it is a religious quote.

But while that could imply it is stating the obvious, it does not mean it is not correct.

There people expressing anger and hatred towards a new lens from m43 are obviously afraid of something.

The only way to diffuse this is to placate them that they have nothing to fear. Even adding lenses like this to m43 does not mean everyone is going to leave their traditional SLRs behind.

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