Stepping down Locked

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Birdie55 Forum Member • Posts: 80
Re: Stepping down

Jim, sorry to see you leave this forum, but reading your reasoning for leaving has been helpful to me. Even if I currently don't own any MF equipment, I have still learned a lot here. It's great, though, that you continue with your blog, I will finally bookmark that one.

Birdie

Greg7579
Greg7579 Senior Member • Posts: 6,729
Re: Stepping down

Navman wrote:

I'm another who will miss your sage and measured comments, Jim - but I understand the reasons...

Travel well, and I'll continue to follow your blog

-John

Hey John,

If you think the "Tribalism" that Jim laments is bad on the MF Board, believe me, it is not.

I invite you to spend 15 minutes on the Sony Board.  Then go read about five posts on the Fuji Board.  If you want to get a real overdose of "tribalism" make yourself gag and go spend 25 minutes on the Sony Board.  Sony has great camera gear and those guys love their Sony (except the ones that leave for Fuji because they want some better ergo and way better glass).  The Nikon Board has it bad now with the emergence of their good mirrorless gear while Canon is reeling from the death of L and a mediocre start into mirrorless.  Those Canon guys are defensive and hurting and it shows on their Board.  Well.  They are leaving in droves for Sony and Fuji (and even Nikon).

Yep … the "tribalism" on those Boards is rampant and the those younger guys troll each other to shreds with ridiculous accusations and claims.  And they almost never own the gear they are trying to cleverly bash.

Moderators wear out the delete button erasing posts and guys get temp bans in droves.

Fuji is by far the worse target on the Fuji Board because their success, unique gear, ergo and great glass causes some of the more "Tribal" FF SonCaNikon crowd to go on the assault there.  I have a long history of getting in trouble on the Fuji Board for calling them out because I know who they are, and my Troll radar is about as accurate as any human being in the history of mankind.  It should be harnessed, marketed and used for the greater good of DPR and Mankind in general.  DPR should allow me to surf all forums as the Troll Moderator, but make no comments.  Just mark all Troll posts with a Big scarlet "T" and never delete them or ban them.  Keep the post and the poster around for all to see. I would not be allowed to ban - only to embarrass.  No due process required.   Just the absolute Inquisition-like power of the Troll Monitor - me.  I digress and am joking.  Sort of.

But seriously, I shouldn't be so hard on those kids.  I have in my life moved from Yashica to Nikon to Canon to Fuji and now am about to enter the FF fixed lens world of the Modern-era Leica (although I always had a Leica as a kid in the early 70s because my Dad had a closet full of them).

So I should not make fun of some random attacker who knows almost nothing and bought a used Sony and then goes onto the Fuji Board to claim that Fuji sucks because of some contrived deficiency when the real reason he is trolling is because he decided to buy a Sony.  Now that is Tribalism.

Can you imagine the havoc I could cause if I took my immense knowledge (👴) and posting skills and used what is left of my scrambled brain cells to cleverly troll Canon or Sony?  I could start riots on those Boards and create absolute almost Armageddon-like chaos.  And I could do it without getting banned.  But I never have and I never will.

Anyway, trust me.  There is far less trolling and way less tribalism on this Board than any other.  To complain about tribalism on this Board is like complaining about people in Hell having too much ice water.  It just ain't so.

Oh, and if some pro photographer says to me, Greg, it is OK to shoot your 23 at F11 when you have some foreground because you are not going to really notice the diffraction even at 1:1 unless you print in certain ways really big, but you are going to notice the out of focus pixels from not enough DOF at all sizes of output, I don't need a scientific lab experiment or 13 graphs to prove it to me before I go out and shoot and try it.  Practical shooting experience and practical shooting tips are what makes this Board so educational, and Jim did plenty of that with me, as well as constantly feeding you lab-testing and science junkies your daily fix.  And he can still do that as a forum member!

Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas
https://www.flickr.com/photos/139148982@N02/albums

 Greg7579's gear list:Greg7579's gear list
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fcracer Contributing Member • Posts: 942
Re: Stepping down

Jim,

I am so sorry to see you resign as moderator. I completely understand your reasons; I was the mod for the Leica forum and resigned for reasons similar to your’s.

I hope that you’ll continue to share your amazing knowledge and experience with us through your website and hopefully this forum as well.

Greg,

I am sorry in advance for this semi-rant, but I am fed up with this line of argument: “the internet sucks and people are mean, and because this place is slightly less mean, it’s ok”.

It is not ok. It is not ok that other venues are even worse or that people treat each other with even less respect and basic human dignity than this venue.

It is my belief that the internet needs a fundamental rethink with real name verification required and traceable comments. The internet, as it is, will be humanity’s ruin.

-- hide signature --

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Greg7579
Greg7579 Senior Member • Posts: 6,729
Re: Stepping down

fcracer wrote:

Jim,

I am so sorry to see you resign as moderator. I completely understand your reasons; I was the mod for the Leica forum and resigned for reasons similar to your’s.

I hope that you’ll continue to share your amazing knowledge and experience with us through your website and hopefully this forum as well.

Greg,

I am sorry in advance for this semi-rant, but I am fed up with this line of argument: “the internet sucks and people are mean, and because this place is slightly less mean, it’s ok”.

It is not ok. It is not ok that other venues are even worse or that people treat each other with even less respect and basic human dignity than this venue.

It is my belief that the internet needs a fundamental rethink with real name verification required and traceable comments. The internet, as it is, will be humanity’s ruin.

I agree totally! I use my name on my posts and even where I live, which is probably foolish because there are real nut-jobs out there. I'm not talking about guys arguing over the nuances of camera gear here on this forum.

But it is what it is. I am not apologizing for the internet and certainly not defending it. Besides, the "internet" is so vast it is not really even worth us delving into that subject here. But it is ruining a generation of kids who don't know how to interact with each other personally or how to deal with real criticism, opinions that differ from theirs or the challenges of life in the real world when they are out there on their own.

Have you been on any of the political or sports forums? My God it is awful there.

That is precisely why I do not have a Facebook or even Instagram account. This place is mild, as it should be. Name-calling and personal attacks are not allowed and if you do it you get banned and the thread deleted.

Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas
https://www.flickr.com/photos/139148982@N02/albums

 Greg7579's gear list:Greg7579's gear list
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roby17269
roby17269 Senior Member • Posts: 1,669
Re: Stepping down

Jim,

we had very few interactions here (I guess I am one of the "new" guys on this forum, although I did not follow majority in terms of gear choices ), but I do read your posts and appreciate a lot your contributions.

Sad to see you go but I do agree with you that there is a general tendency in DPR fora towards tribalism, this one included (albeit it is a bit more civil here compared to other fora).

I hope you will contribute more in the future even if not as moderator. I will be honest: your photography is not my cup of tea. But this is not an issue: your points are well made and well argumented and you are a gentleman and I wish there was more of that here on DPR.

Me, I will probably continue to ignore the market

-- hide signature --

Ciao!
Roberto
My photos: http://rdmfashionphoto.com/

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roby17269
roby17269 Senior Member • Posts: 1,669
Re: Stepping down

Greg7579 wrote:

Navman wrote:

I'm another who will miss your sage and measured comments, Jim - but I understand the reasons...

Travel well, and I'll continue to follow your blog

-John

Hey John,

If you think the "Tribalism" that Jim laments is bad on the MF Board, believe me, it is not.

I invite you to spend 15 minutes on the Sony Board. Then go read about five posts on the Fuji Board. If you want to get a real overdose of "tribalism" make yourself gag and go spend 25 minutes on the Sony Board. Sony has great camera gear and those guys love their Sony (except the ones that leave for Fuji because they want some better ergo and way better glass). The Nikon Board has it bad now with the emergence of their good mirrorless gear while Canon is reeling from the death of L and a mediocre start into mirrorless. Those Canon guys are defensive and hurting and it shows on their Board. Well. They are leaving in droves for Sony and Fuji (and even Nikon).

Yep … the "tribalism" on those Boards is rampant and the those younger guys troll each other to shreds with ridiculous accusations and claims. And they almost never own the gear they are trying to cleverly bash.

Moderators wear out the delete button erasing posts and guys get temp bans in droves.

Fuji is by far the worse target on the Fuji Board because their success, unique gear, ergo and great glass causes some of the more "Tribal" FF SonCaNikon crowd to go on the assault there. I have a long history of getting in trouble on the Fuji Board for calling them out because I know who they are, and my Troll radar is about as accurate as any human being in the history of mankind. It should be harnessed, marketed and used for the greater good of DPR and Mankind in general. DPR should allow me to surf all forums as the Troll Moderator, but make no comments. Just mark all Troll posts with a Big scarlet "T" and never delete them or ban them. Keep the post and the poster around for all to see. I would not be allowed to ban - only to embarrass. No due process required. Just the absolute Inquisition-like power of the Troll Monitor - me. I digress and am joking. Sort of.

But seriously, I shouldn't be so hard on those kids. I have in my life moved from Yashica to Nikon to Canon to Fuji and now am about to enter the FF fixed lens world of the Modern-era Leica (although I always had a Leica as a kid in the early 70s because my Dad had a closet full of them).

So I should not make fun of some random attacker who knows almost nothing and bought a used Sony and then goes onto the Fuji Board to claim that Fuji sucks because of some contrived deficiency when the real reason he is trolling is because he decided to buy a Sony. Now that is Tribalism.

Can you imagine the havoc I could cause if I took my immense knowledge (👴) and posting skills and used what is left of my scrambled brain cells to cleverly troll Canon or Sony? I could start riots on those Boards and create absolute almost Armageddon-like chaos. And I could do it without getting banned. But I never have and I never will.

Anyway, trust me. There is far less trolling and way less tribalism on this Board than any other. To complain about tribalism on this Board is like complaining about people in Hell having too much ice water. It just ain't so.

Oh, and if some pro photographer says to me, Greg, it is OK to shoot your 23 at F11 when you have some foreground because you are not going to really notice the diffraction even at 1:1 unless you print in certain ways really big, but you are going to notice the out of focus pixels from not enough DOF at all sizes of output, I don't need a scientific lab experiment or 13 graphs to prove it to me before I go out and shoot and try it. Practical shooting experience and practical shooting tips are what makes this Board so educational, and Jim did plenty of that with me, as well as constantly feeding you lab-testing and science junkies your daily fix. And he can still do that as a forum member!

Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas
https://www.flickr.com/photos/139148982@N02/albums

Sorry Greg, while I do agree that this forum is less "tribal" than others, your post here reads really really tribal to me. Calling users of other systems "kids" does not help your arguments.

Maybe you are joking and I have missed that?

-- hide signature --

Ciao!
Roberto
My photos: http://rdmfashionphoto.com/

 roby17269's gear list:roby17269's gear list
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ValVicPhoto
ValVicPhoto Junior Member • Posts: 37
Re: Stepping down

JimKasson wrote:

I'm stepping down as an MF Forum mod and stepping back from this forum, at least for a while. You will be in good hands with Chris, I'm sure.

If anyone cares, here are my reasons .

Thanks for a (mostly) good 2+ years.

Jim

Jim,

Thanks for all the articles and reviews.  I've been a pretty silent reader but always enjoyed your stuff.  I've had the GFX for a few years now and love it.

Hopefully we will see you soon again in this capacity.

Regards,

Vito

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NAwlins Contrarian Veteran Member • Posts: 3,134
It's our loss in so many ways.

I'm stepping down as an MF Forum mod and stepping back from this forum, at least for a while. You will be in good hands with Chris, I'm sure.

If anyone cares, here are my reasons .

Thanks for a (mostly) good 2+ years.

IMO you've been one of the very most valuable contributors to DPReview, so this is our loss. You combine an artist's eye with an engineer's desire to find objective truth and better practices where they exist. In moderating this forum, you've shown more patience and diplomacy than I would have. I read your blog, and expect to comment there separately, maybe this evening. Enjoy yourself and come back any time!

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tgltgl Regular Member • Posts: 454
Re: Stepping down

In my short time on this MF board I have also very much appreciated and admired Jim's posts and contributions. Sadly this board is losing a great resource who contributed incredible amount of experience and shared so much technical expertise. As a recent visitor to this board I only hope I have not somehow added to 'tribalism' that contributed to Jim's exit - if I did it was certanly unintentional and I sincerely apologize (those of us who are newcomers to MF and frankly more advanced photography forum that goes along with it should not have been able to force someone like Jim to have to leave - while that may be reality of internet it's very sad if/when things turn out this way).

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moimoi
moimoi Veteran Member • Posts: 4,970
Re: Stepping down

Hi Jim,

I wish you the best in your next endeavor!

Cheers,

Max

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And back to Analog Photography as well, oh well!
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Erik Kaffehr
Erik Kaffehr Senior Member • Posts: 2,856
Re: It's our loss in so many ways.

NAwlins Contrarian wrote:

I'm stepping down as an MF Forum mod and stepping back from this forum, at least for a while. You will be in good hands with Chris, I'm sure.

If anyone cares, here are my reasons .

Thanks for a (mostly) good 2+ years.

IMO you've been one of the very most valuable contributors to DPReview, so this is our loss. You combine an artist's eye with an engineer's desire to find objective truth and better practices where they exist. In moderating this forum, you've shown more patience and diplomacy than I would have. I read your blog, and expect to comment there separately, maybe this evening. Enjoy yourself and come back any time!

Well said,

Jim is knowledgeable and always helpful. Great loss for the forum!

Best regards

Erik

-- hide signature --

Erik Kaffehr
Website: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net
Magic uses to disappear in controlled experiments…
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Lightcycle
Lightcycle Regular Member • Posts: 126
Re: Stepping down

Jim, I can certainly understand your reasons, but at the same time I must say that this is no surprise. The culture of discussion depends almost always on the expertise of some moderators or administrators. Not every argument needs to be backed up with scientific evidence, sometimes a certain amount of obviousness is enough to prove its validity.

If you then look at the tests of various photographic magazines, then you quickly realize that almost all have forgotten about the complete documentation of their test methods. The facts and figures of such results are therefore always vulnerable, as no one can comprehend them, and DPReview is no exception.

Nevertheless, I wish you all the best and thank you for your valuable contribution!

-- hide signature --

"The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." - George Orwell

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moimoi
moimoi Veteran Member • Posts: 4,970
Re: Stepping down

Lightcycle wrote:

Jim, I can certainly understand your reasons, but at the same time I must say that this is no surprise. The culture of discussion depends almost always on the expertise of some moderators or administrators. Not every argument needs to be backed up with scientific evidence, sometimes a certain amount of obviousness is enough to prove its validity.

If you then look at the tests of various photographic magazines, then you quickly realize that almost all have forgotten about the complete documentation of their test methods. The facts and figures of such results are therefore always vulnerable, as no one can comprehend them, and DPReview is no exception.

I used to follow a more Cartesian approach when I got into photography but as time went I backed off from this approach and chose the eye and instinctive approach instead while taking photos. I generally found it more rewarding and more important way more fun than the technical approach.

Photography is a vision of our view of the world and it is more an art than a science.   At least the image aspect.

Cheers

Max

Nevertheless, I wish you all the best and thank you for your valuable contribution!

-- hide signature --

"The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it." - George Orwell

-- hide signature --

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https://www.instagram.com/maxsiegler645/
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And back to Analog Photography as well, oh well!
"All we have discovered is that it starts with a single individual - always a child - and then spreads explosively, like the formation of crystals round the first nucleus in a saturated solution." Arthur C. Clarke (Childhood's End, 1953)

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Greg7579
Greg7579 Senior Member • Posts: 6,729
Re: Stepping down

Roberto, I call them kids because I'm old and they are young.  No offense intended to the kids.

I call my own adult kids kids.  And the only camera they have is their phone.

Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas
https://www.flickr.com/photos/139148982@N02/albums

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Greg7579
Greg7579 Senior Member • Posts: 6,729
Re: It's our loss in so many ways.

Erik Kaffehr wrote:

NAwlins Contrarian wrote:

I'm stepping down as an MF Forum mod and stepping back from this forum, at least for a while. You will be in good hands with Chris, I'm sure.

If anyone cares, here are my reasons .

Thanks for a (mostly) good 2+ years.

IMO you've been one of the very most valuable contributors to DPReview, so this is our loss. You combine an artist's eye with an engineer's desire to find objective truth and better practices where they exist. In moderating this forum, you've shown more patience and diplomacy than I would have. I read your blog, and expect to comment there separately, maybe this evening. Enjoy yourself and come back any time!

Well said,

Jim is knowledgeable and always helpful. Great loss for the forum!

Best regards

Erik

How is it a loss for the forum?  Most of Jim's post were marked as "regular contributor".   I imagine he can regularly contribute as much as anyone and I hope he does.

But he was a really good and patient moderator so we will miss that.

No need to miss his input if he keeps providing it.  If he doesn't then that's on him.

Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas
https://www.flickr.com/photos/139148982@N02/albums

 Greg7579's gear list:Greg7579's gear list
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Lightcycle
Lightcycle Regular Member • Posts: 126
Re: Stepping down

That's certainly true, but here it's mostly about the technical side of our equipment. The visual side of photography in general is certainly much more entertaining and diverse, as it involves perspectives and image building. Personal taste also plays an important role here.

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left eye
left eye Senior Member • Posts: 1,739
Stepping Up

moimoi wrote:

Hi Jim,

I wish you the best in your next endeavor!

...I believe Jim's intension is to further concentrate on his main (& already current) endeavours.

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Greg7579
Greg7579 Senior Member • Posts: 6,729
Re: Stepping down

Lightcycle wrote:

Jim, I can certainly understand your reasons, but at the same time I must say that this is no surprise. The culture of discussion depends almost always on the expertise of some moderators or administrators. Not every argument needs to be backed up with scientific evidence, sometimes a certain amount of obviousness is enough to prove its validity.

If you then look at the tests of various photographic magazines, then you quickly realize that almost all have forgotten about the complete documentation of their test methods. The facts and figures of such results are therefore always vulnerable, as no one can comprehend them, and DPReview is no exception.

Nevertheless, I wish you all the best and thank you for your valuable contribution!

I think I get all the photo publications and have for years.  I mean the regular ones we have all heard of.  I don't mean scientific journals or optical science or engineering publications.  I don't get those....

But the camera and photography press has become very editorial in their camera reviews.  It has really gotten bad in that regard.  I have noticed it over the past 5 years and I read camera reviews for fun.  A lot of those guys don't know what the are talking about and just spew out editorial opinions about a camera and the old warhorses I grew up reading in the film days have either died or retired.  But there are a few good ones out there.  But even they can't be right about every camera they pick up and the "science" and "data" when it comes to photography journalism is often bent to an agenda or their idea of what  camera's ergo should be.  The facts aren't always the facts.  A lot of the facts are opinions.  Just like in politics.

Oh well.  I still like reading camera reviews.

Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas
https://www.flickr.com/photos/139148982@N02/albums

 Greg7579's gear list:Greg7579's gear list
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Greg7579
Greg7579 Senior Member • Posts: 6,729
Jim did (does) both - science and practical lessons

moimoi wrote:

Lightcycle wrote:

Jim, I can certainly understand your reasons, but at the same time I must say that this is no surprise. The culture of discussion depends almost always on the expertise of some moderators or administrators. Not every argument needs to be backed up with scientific evidence, sometimes a certain amount of obviousness is enough to prove its validity.

If you then look at the tests of various photographic magazines, then you quickly realize that almost all have forgotten about the complete documentation of their test methods. The facts and figures of such results are therefore always vulnerable, as no one can comprehend them, and DPReview is no exception.

I used to follow a more Cartesian approach when I got into photography but as time went I backed off from this approach and chose the eye and instinctive approach instead while taking photos. I generally found it more rewarding and more important way more fun than the technical approach.

Photography is a vision of our view of the world and it is more an art than a science. At least the image aspect.

Cheers

Max

Nevertheless, I wish you all the best and thank you for your valuable contribution!

Yes but Max … that is not really a fair comment, because you have the technical knowledge to an advanced level and put it to use with every one of your images.  You didn't just start shooting with your gut before you knew all about DOF, diffraction, the range of EV, focusing techniques, white balance, ISO and everything else we discuss and sometimes argue about on this Board.

I don't really care about all the science and testing type of mentality that many have here on this MF Board, but Jim did both.  He would science and test-talk us to death and then provide some incredible practical tips that were really awesome.  I have about ten of them that really helped me written into my permanent notes.

Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas
https://www.flickr.com/photos/139148982@N02/albums

 Greg7579's gear list:Greg7579's gear list
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moimoi
moimoi Veteran Member • Posts: 4,970
Re: Stepping down

Lightcycle wrote:

That's certainly true, but here it's mostly about the technical side of our equipment. The visual side of photography in general is certainly much more entertaining and diverse, as it involves perspectives and image building. Personal taste also plays an important role here.

True.   I hope to see more images taken from MF cameras in this forum, way more actually.

Cheers,

Max

-- hide signature --

http://www.maximesiegler.com/
https://www.instagram.com/maxsiegler645/
https://www.facebook.com/maxime.siegler.photography
And back to Analog Photography as well, oh well!
"All we have discovered is that it starts with a single individual - always a child - and then spreads explosively, like the formation of crystals round the first nucleus in a saturated solution." Arthur C. Clarke (Childhood's End, 1953)

 moimoi's gear list:moimoi's gear list
Fujifilm X100T Canon EOS 6D Canon EOS 5D Mark IV Fujifilm GFX 50R Canon EF 70-200mm F2.8L IS II USM +8 more
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