GR lll Review

Started 4 months ago | Discussions
Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 10,140
Re: GR lll Review

James Bligh wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Olifaunt wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

I think color issue at least in JPEG is established in dpreview GR3 review though color desaturation in RAW as ISO climbs up is not adequately addressed.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricoh-gr-iii/5

Hi James. I just looked carefully at the GRiii studio test scene. Even at ISO 100 something funky is going on in the test scene with the jpeg - there is indeed obvious desaturation in the color patches and they are very uneven and full of cross-hatching, worms, and other artifacts artifacts - for example, the cyan patch looks pretty wretched.

But I think this is jpeg sharpening and noise reduction settings (as well as sharpening and NR in whatever viewer DPR uses for the RAW file too).

Are you talking about this?

Something's fishy, as I downloaded the JPEGs - both the in-camera and the ACR generated one - and there's no such cross-hatching. Cyan is looking better, too. A display issue with the DPR widget, perhaps?

Alex

I see crosshatches or fine crossing lines and halos in cyan and pink squares in jpeg. I also find color of cyan dirty and that of pink muted in RAW. And it is in ISO 100.

I may be mistaken. I see fine crossing lines also in the picture Olifaunt uploaded.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62676964

What I saw may be a monitor thing though I don’t know the right term for what I see. BTW what exactly does crosshatch look?

Well, it's not real crosshatching - but how should I call it? I'm talking about the artifacts clearly visible on the left side patch above.

I see no issues with Olifaunt's picture, perhaps you could be more specific? The display chain - application/OS/drivers/video board/connection/monitor cannot be fully trusted either. For example, one can get interesting effects just by increasing the monitor's sharpening.

Alex

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James Bligh Senior Member • Posts: 2,354
Re: GR lll Review

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Olifaunt wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

I think color issue at least in JPEG is established in dpreview GR3 review though color desaturation in RAW as ISO climbs up is not adequately addressed.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricoh-gr-iii/5

Hi James. I just looked carefully at the GRiii studio test scene. Even at ISO 100 something funky is going on in the test scene with the jpeg - there is indeed obvious desaturation in the color patches and they are very uneven and full of cross-hatching, worms, and other artifacts artifacts - for example, the cyan patch looks pretty wretched.

But I think this is jpeg sharpening and noise reduction settings (as well as sharpening and NR in whatever viewer DPR uses for the RAW file too).

Are you talking about this?

Something's fishy, as I downloaded the JPEGs - both the in-camera and the ACR generated one - and there's no such cross-hatching. Cyan is looking better, too. A display issue with the DPR widget, perhaps?

Alex

I see crosshatches or fine crossing lines and halos in cyan and pink squares in jpeg. I also find color of cyan dirty and that of pink muted in RAW. And it is in ISO 100.

I may be mistaken. I see fine crossing lines also in the picture Olifaunt uploaded.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62676964

What I saw may be a monitor thing though I don’t know the right term for what I see. BTW what exactly does crosshatch look?

Well, it's not real crosshatching - but how should I call it? I'm talking about the artifacts clearly visible on the left side patch above.

I see no issues with Olifaunt's picture, perhaps you could be more specific? The display chain - application/OS/drivers/video board/connection/monitor cannot be fully trusted either. For example, one can get interesting effects just by increasing the monitor's sharpening.

Alex

I have dug into what cross hatching is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatching

https://www.wikihow.com/Cross-Hatch

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-279TvNv1A

Now I know what crosshatch is.

What I have seen in your sample and Olifaunt’s picture seems to be vertical and horizontal lines of pixels of monitor* which are easily seen especially in bright color patches such as cyan and yellow.

* They are real crosshatches. Aren’t they?

I think what I have seen so far is the crosshatching in monitor screen, not an artifact which looks like crosshatch in picture but I can’t imagine it is not a real thing when dpreview has said the following.

(quote)

As that ISO value climbs even higher, we begin to clearly see evidence of this noise reduction on the GR III's Raw files (it's that sort of 'cross-hatching' pattern).

(unquote)

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricoh-gr-iii/5

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SwedishPhoto Regular Member • Posts: 424
Re: GR lll Review
1

illd3fined wrote:

yup fair except for not noting the existence of anti-glare screen protectors

The review isn’t, and shouldn’t be, for third party accessories, especially accessories that fixes any kind of issues.

So you can’t really fault the review for that 👀

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Andrew Mitchell Senior Member • Posts: 1,810
Re: GR lll Review
1

Ken Bates wrote:

Hi All. Just read the review for the GR.lll and all seems fair enough.

The only thing I would add is that I can handhold at 1/4 sec. with about 80% critical sharpness rate. ( double that time for macro )

It's not cheap. I would have liked to have keep the GR ll flash.

But I must say, I love this camera.

Thanks all.

Strange they didn’t mention the camera being crippled (for some of us) by the lack of common aspect ratios. Which other camera makers seem to have no difficulty having.

For me, the aspect ratios, lack of flash, and very poor focusing in low light are totally unacceptable in a camera in this price bracket. And I was soooo looking forward to it. Bummer!

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Andrew (Brit expat in Taipei, Taiwan since 1985)

James Bligh Senior Member • Posts: 2,354
Color of GR3 RAW
1

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

I think color issue at least in JPEG is established in dpreview GR3 review though color desaturation in RAW as ISO climbs up is not adequately addressed.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricoh-gr-iii/5

There's no unusual color desaturation as ISO climbs up. On the contrary, the GR III is quite good at keeping the color.

Alex

Premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW

Here is a sample at ISO 800 but color desaturation in RAW is noted even in base ISO or from ISO 200. It is subtle but it is there.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=ricoh_griii&attr13_1=nikon_d7200&attr13_2=nikon_d610&attr13_3=nikon_d800&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=800&attr16_1=800&attr16_2=800&attr16_3=800&normalization=full&widget=673&x=0.3425143380301338&y=0.23260128517394898

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 10,140
Re: Color of GR3 RAW

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

I think color issue at least in JPEG is established in dpreview GR3 review though color desaturation in RAW as ISO climbs up is not adequately addressed.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricoh-gr-iii/5

There's no unusual color desaturation as ISO climbs up. On the contrary, the GR III is quite good at keeping the color.

Alex

Premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW

Here is a sample at ISO 800 but color desaturation in RAW is noted even in base ISO or from ISO 200. It is subtle but it is there.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=ricoh_griii&attr13_1=nikon_d7200&attr13_2=nikon_d610&attr13_3=nikon_d800&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=800&attr16_1=800&attr16_2=800&attr16_3=800&normalization=full&widget=673&x=0.3425143380301338&y=0.23260128517394898

I strongly disagree with your assessment.

First, you're using the comparison widget which doesn't work properly. But let's ignore that for now.

Second - and most important - your selection is not meant to show color desaturation. Some things to note:

- if you compare the GR III at ISO 100 and ISO 800 (and higher) you'd notice how well it keeps the color. There's no noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.

- you instead are comparing different cameras, with different processing profiles (and a software that didn't yet support the GR III).

- even more, you are trying to be unfair by including full frame cameras.

What you're describing is basically the Loch Ness monster - you say it's there but it just can't be seen.

Alex

 Alex Sarbu's gear list:Alex Sarbu's gear list
Ricoh GR III Pentax K-5 IIs Pentax K-1 II Pentax smc DA 21mm F3.2 AL Limited Pentax smc DA 70mm F2.4 AL Limited +8 more
teemodk Senior Member • Posts: 1,261
Re: Color of GR3 RAW
1

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

I think color issue at least in JPEG is established in dpreview GR3 review though color desaturation in RAW as ISO climbs up is not adequately addressed.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricoh-gr-iii/5

There's no unusual color desaturation as ISO climbs up. On the contrary, the GR III is quite good at keeping the color.

Alex

Premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW

Here is a sample at ISO 800 but color desaturation in RAW is noted even in base ISO or from ISO 200. It is subtle but it is there.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=ricoh_griii&attr13_1=nikon_d7200&attr13_2=nikon_d610&attr13_3=nikon_d800&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=800&attr16_1=800&attr16_2=800&attr16_3=800&normalization=full&widget=673&x=0.3425143380301338&y=0.23260128517394898

I strongly disagree with your assessment.

First, you're using the comparison widget which doesn't work properly. But let's ignore that for now.

Second - and most important - your selection is not meant to show color desaturation. Some things to note:

- if you compare the GR III at ISO 100 and ISO 800 (and higher) you'd notice how well it keeps the color. There's no noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.

- you instead are comparing different cameras, with different processing profiles (and a software that didn't yet support the GR III).

- even more, you are trying to be unfair by including full frame cameras.

What you're describing is basically the Loch Ness monster - you say it's there but it just can't be seen.

Alex

I came to same conclusion, comparing GRIII raw samples at 100, 800 and 3200. I did not notice any shift in colors. Was actually going to compare in darktable with real values from the eyedropper, but will pass for now, seeing your post.

What we are seeing in the Nikon comparison is just wrong interpretations of the raw files from ACR.

I was l playing with these raw files yesterday in darktable. I do get color variance "patterns",  as noted by olifaunt and others, in the colors of the color checker when reading the file without any kind of filtering. But processing with a tiny bit of raw denoising, will clean it up without removing important detail. There is a fair amount of colors that needs to be removed in the old BW picture, but that's expected.

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teemodk Senior Member • Posts: 1,261
Re: Color of GR3 RAW

Another issue to note with the dpr comparison it's the very dark processing of the GRIII files. Mostly due to the missing vignetting correction, but generalize I think the images are too dark.

I made a quick profile for darktable and like what I so far. It's by no means perfect, but shows good potential.

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Oppo R7 Plus
James Bligh Senior Member • Posts: 2,354
Re: Color of GR3 RAW

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

I think color issue at least in JPEG is established in dpreview GR3 review though color desaturation in RAW as ISO climbs up is not adequately addressed.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricoh-gr-iii/5

There's no unusual color desaturation as ISO climbs up. On the contrary, the GR III is quite good at keeping the color.

Alex

Premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW

Here is a sample at ISO 800 but color desaturation in RAW is noted even in base ISO or from ISO 200. It is subtle but it is there.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=ricoh_griii&attr13_1=nikon_d7200&attr13_2=nikon_d610&attr13_3=nikon_d800&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=800&attr16_1=800&attr16_2=800&attr16_3=800&normalization=full&widget=673&x=0.3425143380301338&y=0.23260128517394898

I strongly disagree with your assessment.

First, you're using the comparison widget which doesn't work properly. But let's ignore that for now.

Second - and most important - your selection is not meant to show color desaturation. Some things to note:

- if you compare the GR III at ISO 100 and ISO 800 (and higher) you'd notice how well it keeps the color. There's no noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.

That's why I said premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW. And correct wording may be 'There seems to be no further noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.'

- you instead are comparing different cameras, with different processing profiles (and a software that didn't yet support the GR III).

- even more, you are trying to be unfair by including full frame cameras.

I included Nikon D7200 which has same APS-C sensor with same MP count as that of GR3, same 24 MP but FF D610 and 36 MP FF D800. So GR3 vs. D7200 is a peer comparison and D610 for same MP count but to compare APS-C with FF and D800 for 24 MP APS-C vs. 36 MP FF. I think all meaningful comparisons they are, interesting comparisons at least.

What you're describing is basically the Loch Ness monster - you say it's there but it just can't be seen.

The truth may be we differ in interpretation of fact. The fact is standing like a mountain. When you are blindfolded of course you cannot see whatever there is.

Alex

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You really want you a pound of flesh, don't you?
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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 10,140
Re: Color of GR3 RAW

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

I think color issue at least in JPEG is established in dpreview GR3 review though color desaturation in RAW as ISO climbs up is not adequately addressed.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricoh-gr-iii/5

There's no unusual color desaturation as ISO climbs up. On the contrary, the GR III is quite good at keeping the color.

Alex

Premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW

Here is a sample at ISO 800 but color desaturation in RAW is noted even in base ISO or from ISO 200. It is subtle but it is there.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=ricoh_griii&attr13_1=nikon_d7200&attr13_2=nikon_d610&attr13_3=nikon_d800&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=800&attr16_1=800&attr16_2=800&attr16_3=800&normalization=full&widget=673&x=0.3425143380301338&y=0.23260128517394898

I strongly disagree with your assessment.

First, you're using the comparison widget which doesn't work properly. But let's ignore that for now.

Second - and most important - your selection is not meant to show color desaturation. Some things to note:

- if you compare the GR III at ISO 100 and ISO 800 (and higher) you'd notice how well it keeps the color. There's no noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.

That's why I said premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW. And correct wording may be 'There seems to be no further noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.'

Your "premature color desaturation" simply means that you don't have a base line. It simply means you cannot show any color degradation as ISO increases - because there isn't any.

- you instead are comparing different cameras, with different processing profiles (and a software that didn't yet support the GR III).

- even more, you are trying to be unfair by including full frame cameras.

I included Nikon D7200 which has same APS-C sensor

Same? Are you sure about that? Does it have the same Bayer color filter array? Does Adobe process the RAW files in exactly the same way?

with same MP count as that of GR3, same 24 MP but FF D610 and 36 MP FF D800. So GR3 vs. D7200 is a peer comparison and D610 for same MP count but to compare APS-C with FF and D800 for 24 MP APS-C vs. 36 MP FF. I think all meaningful comparisons they are, interesting comparisons at least.

Only to the point that you still fail to show this supposed issue, despite such an unfair and incorrect comparison.

What you're describing is basically the Loch Ness monster - you say it's there but it just can't be seen.

The truth may be we differ in interpretation of fact. The fact is standing like a mountain. When you are blindfolded of course you cannot see whatever there is.

Curiously, when you are blindfolded you might see what isn't there.

Alex

 Alex Sarbu's gear list:Alex Sarbu's gear list
Ricoh GR III Pentax K-5 IIs Pentax K-1 II Pentax smc DA 21mm F3.2 AL Limited Pentax smc DA 70mm F2.4 AL Limited +8 more
James Bligh Senior Member • Posts: 2,354
Re: Color of GR3 RAW

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

I think color issue at least in JPEG is established in dpreview GR3 review though color desaturation in RAW as ISO climbs up is not adequately addressed.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricoh-gr-iii/5

There's no unusual color desaturation as ISO climbs up. On the contrary, the GR III is quite good at keeping the color.

Alex

Premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW

Here is a sample at ISO 800 but color desaturation in RAW is noted even in base ISO or from ISO 200. It is subtle but it is there.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=ricoh_griii&attr13_1=nikon_d7200&attr13_2=nikon_d610&attr13_3=nikon_d800&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=800&attr16_1=800&attr16_2=800&attr16_3=800&normalization=full&widget=673&x=0.3425143380301338&y=0.23260128517394898

I strongly disagree with your assessment.

First, you're using the comparison widget which doesn't work properly. But let's ignore that for now.

Second - and most important - your selection is not meant to show color desaturation. Some things to note:

- if you compare the GR III at ISO 100 and ISO 800 (and higher) you'd notice how well it keeps the color. There's no noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.

That's why I said premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW. And correct wording may be 'There seems to be no further noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.'

Your "premature color desaturation" simply means that you don't have a base line. It simply means you cannot show any color degradation as ISO increases - because there isn't any.

When you compare GR3 RAW with its peer (for example D7200) RAW and GR3 RAW shows color desaturation at each ISO does it not mean anything?

- you instead are comparing different cameras, with different processing profiles (and a software that didn't yet support the GR III).

- even more, you are trying to be unfair by including full frame cameras.

I included Nikon D7200 which has same APS-C sensor

Same? Are you sure about that? Does it have the same Bayer color filter array? Does Adobe process the RAW files in exactly the same way?

Don't make things complex. It is a common sense to make things as simple as possible when you make an argument. Making things complex only makes things complicated and unsolvable.

with same MP count as that of GR3, same 24 MP but FF D610 and 36 MP FF D800. So GR3 vs. D7200 is a peer comparison and D610 for same MP count but to compare APS-C with FF and D800 for 24 MP APS-C vs. 36 MP FF. I think all meaningful comparisons they are, interesting comparisons at least.

Only to the point that you still fail to show this supposed issue, despite such an unfair and incorrect comparison.

Supposed issue? If you do not admit an issue I do not have to argue with you. It's a waste of time.

What you're describing is basically the Loch Ness monster - you say it's there but it just can't be seen.

The truth may be we differ in interpretation of fact. The fact is standing like a mountain. When you are blindfolded of course you cannot see whatever there is.

Curiously, when you are blindfolded you might see what isn't there.

I wear glasses not a blindfold. Isn’t it a paranoia to worry about something which is not real?

Alex

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You really want you a pound of flesh, don't you?
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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 10,140
Re: Color of GR3 RAW
2

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

I think color issue at least in JPEG is established in dpreview GR3 review though color desaturation in RAW as ISO climbs up is not adequately addressed.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricoh-gr-iii/5

There's no unusual color desaturation as ISO climbs up. On the contrary, the GR III is quite good at keeping the color.

Alex

Premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW

Here is a sample at ISO 800 but color desaturation in RAW is noted even in base ISO or from ISO 200. It is subtle but it is there.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=ricoh_griii&attr13_1=nikon_d7200&attr13_2=nikon_d610&attr13_3=nikon_d800&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=800&attr16_1=800&attr16_2=800&attr16_3=800&normalization=full&widget=673&x=0.3425143380301338&y=0.23260128517394898

I strongly disagree with your assessment.

First, you're using the comparison widget which doesn't work properly. But let's ignore that for now.

Second - and most important - your selection is not meant to show color desaturation. Some things to note:

- if you compare the GR III at ISO 100 and ISO 800 (and higher) you'd notice how well it keeps the color. There's no noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.

That's why I said premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW. And correct wording may be 'There seems to be no further noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.'

Your "premature color desaturation" simply means that you don't have a base line. It simply means you cannot show any color degradation as ISO increases - because there isn't any.

When you compare GR3 RAW with its peer (for example D7200) RAW and GR3 RAW shows color desaturation at each ISO does it not mean anything?

Oh, but you never compared the RAW files - but converted RAWs, their displayable interpretation by some processing software or another.

And any color difference can means many things. I would rather suspect processing differences and/or Bayer CFA differences, than make up theories about noise reduction uniformly desaturating the colors at every ISO.

- you instead are comparing different cameras, with different processing profiles (and a software that didn't yet support the GR III).

- even more, you are trying to be unfair by including full frame cameras.

I included Nikon D7200 which has same APS-C sensor

Same? Are you sure about that? Does it have the same Bayer color filter array? Does Adobe process the RAW files in exactly the same way?

Don't make things complex. It is a common sense to make things as simple as possible when you make an argument. Making things complex only makes things complicated and unsolvable.

Would you rather have me not ask the obvious question, and go with prejudice instead?

with same MP count as that of GR3, same 24 MP but FF D610 and 36 MP FF D800. So GR3 vs. D7200 is a peer comparison and D610 for same MP count but to compare APS-C with FF and D800 for 24 MP APS-C vs. 36 MP FF. I think all meaningful comparisons they are, interesting comparisons at least.

Only to the point that you still fail to show this supposed issue, despite such an unfair and incorrect comparison.

Supposed issue? If you do not admit an issue I do not have to argue with you. It's a waste of time.

Yes, supposed issue, because you were unable to demonstrate it.

What you're describing is basically the Loch Ness monster - you say it's there but it just can't be seen.

The truth may be we differ in interpretation of fact. The fact is standing like a mountain. When you are blindfolded of course you cannot see whatever there is.

Curiously, when you are blindfolded you might see what isn't there.

I wear glasses not a blindfold. Isn’t it a paranoia to worry about something which is not real?

I honestly don't care what it is, but your anti-GR III tirade is tiresome. I'm here to learn about a still unfamiliar brand, not to hear about imaginary faults of my camera.

Alex

 Alex Sarbu's gear list:Alex Sarbu's gear list
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Olifaunt Contributing Member • Posts: 770
Re: Color of GR3 RAW
2

James Bligh wrote:

When you compare GR3 RAW with its peer (for example D7200) RAW and GR3 RAW shows color desaturation at each ISO does it not mean anything?

Hi James, no, the comparison really doesn't mean anything. You are comparing apples to oranges. RAW files really don't have any specific color interpretation - the exact same raw file can be rendered to look like manhy different kinds of color film, for example. I would recommend that you look into what an ICC color profile is if you don't know already. That is where the color interpretation of a RAW file comes from, and the profiles are different for each sensor, each camera manufacturer, each RAW editor, etc.

illd3fined Regular Member • Posts: 455
Re: Color of GR3 RAW
3

Olifaunt wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

When you compare GR3 RAW with its peer (for example D7200) RAW and GR3 RAW shows color desaturation at each ISO does it not mean anything?

Hi James, no, the comparison really doesn't mean anything. You are comparing apples to oranges. RAW files really don't have any specific color interpretation - the exact same raw file can be rendered to look like manhy different kinds of color film, for example. I would recommend that you look into what an ICC color profile is if you don't know already. That is where the color interpretation of a RAW file comes from, and they are different for each sensor, each camera manufacturer, each RAW editor, etc.

this exactly James

what precisely is your problem with moving a default jpeg setting or RAW slider +2 to the right? more importantly, is it worth all the dark misery you hold deep inside you and want to spread outward? there's already so much real world negativity to deal with

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 10,140
Re: Color of GR3 RAW

Olifaunt wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

When you compare GR3 RAW with its peer (for example D7200) RAW and GR3 RAW shows color desaturation at each ISO does it not mean anything?

Hi James, no, the comparison really doesn't mean anything. You are comparing apples to oranges. RAW files really don't have any specific color interpretation - the exact same raw file can be rendered to look like manhy different kinds of color film, for example.

One could look at the non-interpreted binary values, using a tool like Raw Digger - but even then, there are many more plausible explanations (like a different CFA).

There are people way more knowledgeable on this subject than me - Iliah Borg for example - but I'd say, the fact that the color is consistent even as you increase the ISO means James' theory is completely bogus.

Besides, AFAIK the accelerator doesn't remove noise at base ISO.

Alex

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John Gellings Veteran Member • Posts: 5,263
Re: Color of GR3 RAW
2

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

I think color issue at least in JPEG is established in dpreview GR3 review though color desaturation in RAW as ISO climbs up is not adequately addressed.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricoh-gr-iii/5

There's no unusual color desaturation as ISO climbs up. On the contrary, the GR III is quite good at keeping the color.

Alex

Premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW

Here is a sample at ISO 800 but color desaturation in RAW is noted even in base ISO or from ISO 200. It is subtle but it is there.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=ricoh_griii&attr13_1=nikon_d7200&attr13_2=nikon_d610&attr13_3=nikon_d800&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=800&attr16_1=800&attr16_2=800&attr16_3=800&normalization=full&widget=673&x=0.3425143380301338&y=0.23260128517394898

I strongly disagree with your assessment.

First, you're using the comparison widget which doesn't work properly. But let's ignore that for now.

Second - and most important - your selection is not meant to show color desaturation. Some things to note:

  • if you compare the GR III at ISO 100 and ISO 800 (and higher) you'd notice how well it keeps the color. There's no noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.

That's why I said premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW. And correct wording may be 'There seems to be no further noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.'

Your "premature color desaturation" simply means that you don't have a base line. It simply means you cannot show any color degradation as ISO increases - because there isn't any.

When you compare GR3 RAW with its peer (for example D7200) RAW and GR3 RAW shows color desaturation at each ISO does it not mean anything?

Oh, but you never compared the RAW files - but converted RAWs, their displayable interpretation by some processing software or another.

And any color difference can means many things. I would rather suspect processing differences and/or Bayer CFA differences, than make up theories about noise reduction uniformly desaturating the colors at every ISO.

  • you instead are comparing different cameras, with different processing profiles (and a software that didn't yet support the GR III).
  • even more, you are trying to be unfair by including full frame cameras.

I included Nikon D7200 which has same APS-C sensor

Same? Are you sure about that? Does it have the same Bayer color filter array? Does Adobe process the RAW files in exactly the same way?

Don't make things complex. It is a common sense to make things as simple as possible when you make an argument. Making things complex only makes things complicated and unsolvable.

Would you rather have me not ask the obvious question, and go with prejudice instead?

with same MP count as that of GR3, same 24 MP but FF D610 and 36 MP FF D800. So GR3 vs. D7200 is a peer comparison and D610 for same MP count but to compare APS-C with FF and D800 for 24 MP APS-C vs. 36 MP FF. I think all meaningful comparisons they are, interesting comparisons at least.

Only to the point that you still fail to show this supposed issue, despite such an unfair and incorrect comparison.

Supposed issue? If you do not admit an issue I do not have to argue with you. It's a waste of time.

Yes, supposed issue, because you were unable to demonstrate it.

What you're describing is basically the Loch Ness monster - you say it's there but it just can't be seen.

The truth may be we differ in interpretation of fact. The fact is standing like a mountain. When you are blindfolded of course you cannot see whatever there is.

Curiously, when you are blindfolded you might see what isn't there.

I wear glasses not a blindfold. Isn’t it a paranoia to worry about something which is not real?

I honestly don't care what it is, but your anti-GR III tirade is tiresome. I'm here to learn about a still unfamiliar brand, not to hear about imaginary faults of my camera.

Alex

I’m not sure how I can even use this camera anymore ... I mean, it’s got so many problems that non users have Found that us users haven’t. Let’s hear it for the non users everyone!

 John Gellings's gear list:John Gellings's gear list
Ricoh GR III Sony a7R II Fujifilm X-Pro2 Fujifilm X-E3 Fujifilm XF 27mm F2.8 +5 more
James Bligh Senior Member • Posts: 2,354
Re: Color of GR3 RAW

John Gellings wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

I think color issue at least in JPEG is established in dpreview GR3 review though color desaturation in RAW as ISO climbs up is not adequately addressed.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricoh-gr-iii/5

There's no unusual color desaturation as ISO climbs up. On the contrary, the GR III is quite good at keeping the color.

Alex

Premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW

Here is a sample at ISO 800 but color desaturation in RAW is noted even in base ISO or from ISO 200. It is subtle but it is there.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=ricoh_griii&attr13_1=nikon_d7200&attr13_2=nikon_d610&attr13_3=nikon_d800&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=800&attr16_1=800&attr16_2=800&attr16_3=800&normalization=full&widget=673&x=0.3425143380301338&y=0.23260128517394898

I strongly disagree with your assessment.

First, you're using the comparison widget which doesn't work properly. But let's ignore that for now.

Second - and most important - your selection is not meant to show color desaturation. Some things to note:

  • if you compare the GR III at ISO 100 and ISO 800 (and higher) you'd notice how well it keeps the color. There's no noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.

That's why I said premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW. And correct wording may be 'There seems to be no further noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.'

Your "premature color desaturation" simply means that you don't have a base line. It simply means you cannot show any color degradation as ISO increases - because there isn't any.

When you compare GR3 RAW with its peer (for example D7200) RAW and GR3 RAW shows color desaturation at each ISO does it not mean anything?

Oh, but you never compared the RAW files - but converted RAWs, their displayable interpretation by some processing software or another.

And any color difference can means many things. I would rather suspect processing differences and/or Bayer CFA differences, than make up theories about noise reduction uniformly desaturating the colors at every ISO.

  • you instead are comparing different cameras, with different processing profiles (and a software that didn't yet support the GR III).
  • even more, you are trying to be unfair by including full frame cameras.

I included Nikon D7200 which has same APS-C sensor

Same? Are you sure about that? Does it have the same Bayer color filter array? Does Adobe process the RAW files in exactly the same way?

Don't make things complex. It is a common sense to make things as simple as possible when you make an argument. Making things complex only makes things complicated and unsolvable.

Would you rather have me not ask the obvious question, and go with prejudice instead?

with same MP count as that of GR3, same 24 MP but FF D610 and 36 MP FF D800. So GR3 vs. D7200 is a peer comparison and D610 for same MP count but to compare APS-C with FF and D800 for 24 MP APS-C vs. 36 MP FF. I think all meaningful comparisons they are, interesting comparisons at least.

Only to the point that you still fail to show this supposed issue, despite such an unfair and incorrect comparison.

Supposed issue? If you do not admit an issue I do not have to argue with you. It's a waste of time.

Yes, supposed issue, because you were unable to demonstrate it.

What you're describing is basically the Loch Ness monster - you say it's there but it just can't be seen.

The truth may be we differ in interpretation of fact. The fact is standing like a mountain. When you are blindfolded of course you cannot see whatever there is.

Curiously, when you are blindfolded you might see what isn't there.

I wear glasses not a blindfold. Isn’t it a paranoia to worry about something which is not real?

I honestly don't care what it is, but your anti-GR III tirade is tiresome. I'm here to learn about a still unfamiliar brand, not to hear about imaginary faults of my camera.

Alex

I’m not sure how I can even use this camera anymore ... I mean, it’s got so many problems that non users have Found that us users haven’t. Let’s hear it for the non users everyone!

Only remember GR3 RAW files are desaturated whatever the cause may be. Knowing this may give you a sailing tip at the very least.

-- hide signature --

You really want you a pound of flesh, don't you?
-- Mallory to Miller in the movie 'The Guns of Navarone'

John Gellings Veteran Member • Posts: 5,263
Re: Color of GR3 RAW
2

James Bligh wrote:

John Gellings wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

I think color issue at least in JPEG is established in dpreview GR3 review though color desaturation in RAW as ISO climbs up is not adequately addressed.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricoh-gr-iii/5

There's no unusual color desaturation as ISO climbs up. On the contrary, the GR III is quite good at keeping the color.

Alex

Premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW

Here is a sample at ISO 800 but color desaturation in RAW is noted even in base ISO or from ISO 200. It is subtle but it is there.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=ricoh_griii&attr13_1=nikon_d7200&attr13_2=nikon_d610&attr13_3=nikon_d800&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=800&attr16_1=800&attr16_2=800&attr16_3=800&normalization=full&widget=673&x=0.3425143380301338&y=0.23260128517394898

I strongly disagree with your assessment.

First, you're using the comparison widget which doesn't work properly. But let's ignore that for now.

Second - and most important - your selection is not meant to show color desaturation. Some things to note:

  • if you compare the GR III at ISO 100 and ISO 800 (and higher) you'd notice how well it keeps the color. There's no noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.

That's why I said premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW. And correct wording may be 'There seems to be no further noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.'

Your "premature color desaturation" simply means that you don't have a base line. It simply means you cannot show any color degradation as ISO increases - because there isn't any.

When you compare GR3 RAW with its peer (for example D7200) RAW and GR3 RAW shows color desaturation at each ISO does it not mean anything?

Oh, but you never compared the RAW files - but converted RAWs, their displayable interpretation by some processing software or another.

And any color difference can means many things. I would rather suspect processing differences and/or Bayer CFA differences, than make up theories about noise reduction uniformly desaturating the colors at every ISO.

  • you instead are comparing different cameras, with different processing profiles (and a software that didn't yet support the GR III).
  • even more, you are trying to be unfair by including full frame cameras.

I included Nikon D7200 which has same APS-C sensor

Same? Are you sure about that? Does it have the same Bayer color filter array? Does Adobe process the RAW files in exactly the same way?

Don't make things complex. It is a common sense to make things as simple as possible when you make an argument. Making things complex only makes things complicated and unsolvable.

Would you rather have me not ask the obvious question, and go with prejudice instead?

with same MP count as that of GR3, same 24 MP but FF D610 and 36 MP FF D800. So GR3 vs. D7200 is a peer comparison and D610 for same MP count but to compare APS-C with FF and D800 for 24 MP APS-C vs. 36 MP FF. I think all meaningful comparisons they are, interesting comparisons at least.

Only to the point that you still fail to show this supposed issue, despite such an unfair and incorrect comparison.

Supposed issue? If you do not admit an issue I do not have to argue with you. It's a waste of time.

Yes, supposed issue, because you were unable to demonstrate it.

What you're describing is basically the Loch Ness monster - you say it's there but it just can't be seen.

The truth may be we differ in interpretation of fact. The fact is standing like a mountain. When you are blindfolded of course you cannot see whatever there is.

Curiously, when you are blindfolded you might see what isn't there.

I wear glasses not a blindfold. Isn’t it a paranoia to worry about something which is not real?

I honestly don't care what it is, but your anti-GR III tirade is tiresome. I'm here to learn about a still unfamiliar brand, not to hear about imaginary faults of my camera.

Alex

I’m not sure how I can even use this camera anymore ... I mean, it’s got so many problems that non users have Found that us users haven’t. Let’s hear it for the non users everyone!

Only remember GR3 RAW files are desaturated whatever the cause may be. Knowing this may give you a sailing tip at the very least.

James, I don’t need the tip. I’ve been using it and the colors are not desaturated in any meaningful way to me. In fact they are more saturated than my Fuji files. I can base my information off of hundreds of photos I have made, not from a few random photos on the internet.

 John Gellings's gear list:John Gellings's gear list
Ricoh GR III Sony a7R II Fujifilm X-Pro2 Fujifilm X-E3 Fujifilm XF 27mm F2.8 +5 more
James Bligh Senior Member • Posts: 2,354
Re: Color of GR3 RAW

John Gellings wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

John Gellings wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

I think color issue at least in JPEG is established in dpreview GR3 review though color desaturation in RAW as ISO climbs up is not adequately addressed.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricoh-gr-iii/5

There's no unusual color desaturation as ISO climbs up. On the contrary, the GR III is quite good at keeping the color.

Alex

Premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW

Here is a sample at ISO 800 but color desaturation in RAW is noted even in base ISO or from ISO 200. It is subtle but it is there.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=ricoh_griii&attr13_1=nikon_d7200&attr13_2=nikon_d610&attr13_3=nikon_d800&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=800&attr16_1=800&attr16_2=800&attr16_3=800&normalization=full&widget=673&x=0.3425143380301338&y=0.23260128517394898

I strongly disagree with your assessment.

First, you're using the comparison widget which doesn't work properly. But let's ignore that for now.

Second - and most important - your selection is not meant to show color desaturation. Some things to note:

  • if you compare the GR III at ISO 100 and ISO 800 (and higher) you'd notice how well it keeps the color. There's no noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.

That's why I said premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW. And correct wording may be 'There seems to be no further noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.'

Your "premature color desaturation" simply means that you don't have a base line. It simply means you cannot show any color degradation as ISO increases - because there isn't any.

When you compare GR3 RAW with its peer (for example D7200) RAW and GR3 RAW shows color desaturation at each ISO does it not mean anything?

Oh, but you never compared the RAW files - but converted RAWs, their displayable interpretation by some processing software or another.

And any color difference can means many things. I would rather suspect processing differences and/or Bayer CFA differences, than make up theories about noise reduction uniformly desaturating the colors at every ISO.

  • you instead are comparing different cameras, with different processing profiles (and a software that didn't yet support the GR III).
  • even more, you are trying to be unfair by including full frame cameras.

I included Nikon D7200 which has same APS-C sensor

Same? Are you sure about that? Does it have the same Bayer color filter array? Does Adobe process the RAW files in exactly the same way?

Don't make things complex. It is a common sense to make things as simple as possible when you make an argument. Making things complex only makes things complicated and unsolvable.

Would you rather have me not ask the obvious question, and go with prejudice instead?

with same MP count as that of GR3, same 24 MP but FF D610 and 36 MP FF D800. So GR3 vs. D7200 is a peer comparison and D610 for same MP count but to compare APS-C with FF and D800 for 24 MP APS-C vs. 36 MP FF. I think all meaningful comparisons they are, interesting comparisons at least.

Only to the point that you still fail to show this supposed issue, despite such an unfair and incorrect comparison.

Supposed issue? If you do not admit an issue I do not have to argue with you. It's a waste of time.

Yes, supposed issue, because you were unable to demonstrate it.

What you're describing is basically the Loch Ness monster - you say it's there but it just can't be seen.

The truth may be we differ in interpretation of fact. The fact is standing like a mountain. When you are blindfolded of course you cannot see whatever there is.

Curiously, when you are blindfolded you might see what isn't there.

I wear glasses not a blindfold. Isn’t it a paranoia to worry about something which is not real?

I honestly don't care what it is, but your anti-GR III tirade is tiresome. I'm here to learn about a still unfamiliar brand, not to hear about imaginary faults of my camera.

Alex

I’m not sure how I can even use this camera anymore ... I mean, it’s got so many problems that non users have Found that us users haven’t. Let’s hear it for the non users everyone!

Only remember GR3 RAW files are desaturated whatever the cause may be. Knowing this may give you a sailing tip at the very least.

James, I don’t need the tip. I’ve been using it and the colors are not desaturated in any meaningful way to me. In fact they are more saturated than my Fuji files. I can base my information off of hundreds of photos I have made, not from a few random photos on the internet.

Remember this too. There is a huge difference between 'in any meaningful way to me' and 'in any way'. The former has two conditions attached; those are 'meaningful' and 'you'.

-- hide signature --

You really want you a pound of flesh, don't you?
-- Mallory to Miller in the movie 'The Guns of Navarone'

John Gellings Veteran Member • Posts: 5,263
Re: Color of GR3 RAW
2

James Bligh wrote:

John Gellings wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

John Gellings wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

James Bligh wrote:

I think color issue at least in JPEG is established in dpreview GR3 review though color desaturation in RAW as ISO climbs up is not adequately addressed.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/ricoh-gr-iii/5

There's no unusual color desaturation as ISO climbs up. On the contrary, the GR III is quite good at keeping the color.

Alex

Premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW

Here is a sample at ISO 800 but color desaturation in RAW is noted even in base ISO or from ISO 200. It is subtle but it is there.

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison/fullscreen?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=ricoh_griii&attr13_1=nikon_d7200&attr13_2=nikon_d610&attr13_3=nikon_d800&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=800&attr16_1=800&attr16_2=800&attr16_3=800&normalization=full&widget=673&x=0.3425143380301338&y=0.23260128517394898

I strongly disagree with your assessment.

First, you're using the comparison widget which doesn't work properly. But let's ignore that for now.

Second - and most important - your selection is not meant to show color desaturation. Some things to note:

  • if you compare the GR III at ISO 100 and ISO 800 (and higher) you'd notice how well it keeps the color. There's no noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.

That's why I said premature color desaturation of GR3 RAW. And correct wording may be 'There seems to be no further noticeable desaturation; just the extra noise.'

Your "premature color desaturation" simply means that you don't have a base line. It simply means you cannot show any color degradation as ISO increases - because there isn't any.

When you compare GR3 RAW with its peer (for example D7200) RAW and GR3 RAW shows color desaturation at each ISO does it not mean anything?

Oh, but you never compared the RAW files - but converted RAWs, their displayable interpretation by some processing software or another.

And any color difference can means many things. I would rather suspect processing differences and/or Bayer CFA differences, than make up theories about noise reduction uniformly desaturating the colors at every ISO.

  • you instead are comparing different cameras, with different processing profiles (and a software that didn't yet support the GR III).
  • even more, you are trying to be unfair by including full frame cameras.

I included Nikon D7200 which has same APS-C sensor

Same? Are you sure about that? Does it have the same Bayer color filter array? Does Adobe process the RAW files in exactly the same way?

Don't make things complex. It is a common sense to make things as simple as possible when you make an argument. Making things complex only makes things complicated and unsolvable.

Would you rather have me not ask the obvious question, and go with prejudice instead?

with same MP count as that of GR3, same 24 MP but FF D610 and 36 MP FF D800. So GR3 vs. D7200 is a peer comparison and D610 for same MP count but to compare APS-C with FF and D800 for 24 MP APS-C vs. 36 MP FF. I think all meaningful comparisons they are, interesting comparisons at least.

Only to the point that you still fail to show this supposed issue, despite such an unfair and incorrect comparison.

Supposed issue? If you do not admit an issue I do not have to argue with you. It's a waste of time.

Yes, supposed issue, because you were unable to demonstrate it.

What you're describing is basically the Loch Ness monster - you say it's there but it just can't be seen.

The truth may be we differ in interpretation of fact. The fact is standing like a mountain. When you are blindfolded of course you cannot see whatever there is.

Curiously, when you are blindfolded you might see what isn't there.

I wear glasses not a blindfold. Isn’t it a paranoia to worry about something which is not real?

I honestly don't care what it is, but your anti-GR III tirade is tiresome. I'm here to learn about a still unfamiliar brand, not to hear about imaginary faults of my camera.

Alex

I’m not sure how I can even use this camera anymore ... I mean, it’s got so many problems that non users have Found that us users haven’t. Let’s hear it for the non users everyone!

Only remember GR3 RAW files are desaturated whatever the cause may be. Knowing this may give you a sailing tip at the very least.

James, I don’t need the tip. I’ve been using it and the colors are not desaturated in any meaningful way to me. In fact they are more saturated than my Fuji files. I can base my information off of hundreds of photos I have made, not from a few random photos on the internet.

Remember this too. There is a huge difference between 'in any meaningful way to me' and 'in any way'. The former has two conditions attached; those are 'meaningful' and 'you'.

True, but my opinion is based on actual use. Yours is based on you being upset at Ricoh for not making the perfect camera for you.

 John Gellings's gear list:John Gellings's gear list
Ricoh GR III Sony a7R II Fujifilm X-Pro2 Fujifilm X-E3 Fujifilm XF 27mm F2.8 +5 more
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