Worse than I thought

Started 2 months ago | Discussions
MEDISN
MEDISN Contributing Member • Posts: 772
Re: Worse than I thought
3

Felice62 wrote:

Good luck keeping at base ISO with a Fuji camera that has no ibis compared to an M4/3's camera which has 6 stops worth.

the 6 Fstop figures are only worth when shooting immobilized scenes.

False. Not all motion in a composition must be frozen. IBIS stabilizes my movement too.

Photo Pete Veteran Member • Posts: 4,719
Re: Worse than I thought
8

sportyaccordy wrote:

I don't mean this in an insulting way at all, but M43 shooters don't seem to be concerned with having the latest whiz bang features or lab test IQ winners. The lens system is probably the most complete in the business. M43 is a victim of its own success. It's a mature system which will probably only generate sales through necessary replacements.

Remember, market share is just a measure of how many cameras sold within a given period. There is still a huge M43 user base from the accumulated sales over the last decade.

This is such a good point.

Nikon, Sony and Canon are all still in the transitional period to mirrorless, where they are offering something new for existing full frame dSLR users. This should generate a spike in sales (and yet they are still struggling with their sales figures)

In general though, the m43 market is now pretty mature with a lot of users who remain happy with their equipment.... or would be happy with their equipment if it wasn’t for the internet warriors who feel the urge to condemn everything they discuss.

The web blogging ‘experts’ represent consumerism gone mad. They are promoting an unsustainable cycle of upgrades for products which are still perfectly viable. By condemning every manufacturer who is not currently producing the gear they think they should be producing they are damaging the prospects of companies who are actually taking what would otherwise be a more sustainable approach to r&d. They are simply promoting fear, uncertainty and doubt for existing users for no other reason than to fabricate their own relevance and bring viewers to their blog.

Perhaps, in a mature market, Olympus have got it right. Why incur the considerable r&d expense of replacing existing models with completely new sensors and AF technology on a yearly basis when such incremental upgrades are unlikely to attract large numbers of upgrading customers.

And, more significantly, why as consumers are we buying into this? The em5 mkii was announced just 4 years ago. When did not releasing a camera update for four years become such a crisis and when did any photographer need to upgrade their equipment so frequently?

Internet bloggers who are genuinely concerned about the health of the camera industry should be promoting a move away from this frantic turnover of new models and supporting the manufacturers in taking a more sustainable approach, rather than criticising their every move in an attempt to appear as an industry expert.

Unfortunately, in his continual criticism of the camera manufacturers, bloggers like Mr Hogan are part of the reason behind the declining market which he makes his living reporting on.

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Photo Pete

MOD Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 37,674
Gearheads and fashionistas
7

The fact of the financial life of the matter is that manufacturers make gear to service what they think that the market wants.

But the reality is that most camera gear users don’t really know what they want except that think that they wish to get gear that constantly improves the images that they capture with no more effort than forking out some more money.

The reality is that most cameras and lenses currently on offer be they 4/3 sensor types through to medium format types are quite good enough for our photographic purpose.

But in this day of easy-photography and easy-everything from mobile phones right through to pending self-drive cars the thrust is to less effort and dumbing down skill sets.

We cannot make photographic opportunities suddenly appear on demand - some are “created” others just happen before our eyes.  Nor can we force would be photographers to learn photographic technique. But we can keep on buying ever better gear in the continually futile attempt to get even better images when the person pressing the shutter does not update themself.

So there are crazes - FF ML is the “new black” - make it they can sell it and the suckers certainly cannot buy it faster than they can make it.

But M4/3 must be good enough for almost anyone but trying to stop lemmings in full flight for that cliff might be quite hard.

Why, after finding that good digital photography was possible with a 4/3 sensor and a mere 16mp sensor in compact gear, is there this pulsating fear that somehow not getting back to near 135 film size kit is going to be left in the dark photographic age?  It is irrational.  Right from my first tentative serious steps into digital photography with a 2.6mp capture area sensor I have always been happy on the day with what my gear produced.  On that day everything was photographically perfect.  But sensors and images improved until I thought “this is perfect”.  But somehow perfection can be improved on by simply buying more and more gear.

Somewhere we have to draw a line in the sand and admit to our inner self that the gear in our hands is good enough and that is a rational argument.

Olympus has metaphorically said that “we produce great cameras”.  That “the 4/3 sensor will become and has become good enough for 99% of normal photography.  We have made some “to die for” lenses to go with them”.

But the trouble is that the gearheads and fashionistas by their would be buying patterns are saying that Olympus is wrong and frankly Olympus must be struggling to find the  capital to invest in new camera bodies.

If prices are indeed falling then the risk is that new gear in the form of camera bodies is going to be a struggle and Olympus fans need to spend more to have their favourite company survive in a difficult market.

There is no much point in arguing why Olympus and the M4/3 format is good enough for anyone apart from the truly well heeled and technically competent - but of course that defines all of us ....  Just ask this forum.

So instead of taking advantage of bargain prices and making things worse for Olympus - why not invest in some of their expensive exotic lenses at RRP and not waiting for the next sale?

This is a quick and more practical way of showing that you care for both Olympus and M4/3  and at he same time take better images “magically” instead of arguing why it might be better and then only buying at a discount.  Human nature can often destroy the very thing that they love.

In a disclosure of my own position:  I am considering buying a Panasonic S1/S1R not for the purpose of leaving M4/3 where I am very happy but for the ability to re-use my 10-15 year old collection of Canon EF mount lenses alone. Period, I have no intention of re-buying my EF mount lenses in L-Mount.  To me this is a common sense point of view.

I am a great believer that small body M4/3 is its future and that trying to emulate FF sensor camera bodies for their “look” status value is a mistake.  But the forum revels in “big” M4/3 bodies by buying them - although many complain about this there wasn’t actually a rush to buy GM series cameras at their RRP when they were about.

The E-M1ii and G9 are great cameras but perhaps the E-M1x (excellent camera) is a dagger in the heart of M4/3 as Olympus strives to emulate the status-style of FF ML in M4/3.

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Tom Caldwell

JakeJY Senior Member • Posts: 3,124
Re: Worse than I thought

Photo Pete wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

I don't mean this in an insulting way at all, but M43 shooters don't seem to be concerned with having the latest whiz bang features or lab test IQ winners. The lens system is probably the most complete in the business. M43 is a victim of its own success. It's a mature system which will probably only generate sales through necessary replacements.

Remember, market share is just a measure of how many cameras sold within a given period. There is still a huge M43 user base from the accumulated sales over the last decade.

This is such a good point.

Nikon, Sony and Canon are all still in the transitional period to mirrorless, where they are offering something new for existing full frame dSLR users. This should generate a spike in sales (and yet they are still struggling with their sales figures)

The increase in mirrorless sales is actually not anywhere close to covering the loss of DSLR sales. Canon is continually lowering forecasts. Nikon is doing even worse.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/2376449107/report-canon-is-lowering-profit-forecast-20-due-to-shrinking-camera-sales

Perhaps, in a mature market, Olympus have got it right. Why incur the considerable r&d expense of replacing existing models with completely new sensors and AF technology on a yearly basis when such incremental upgrades are unlikely to attract large numbers of upgrading customers.

Yeah, it's pretty doubtful the strategy pushed by some enthusiasts here (putting cutting edge sensors into inexpensive small cameras) would necessarily mean profitability even if that is the camera they want to buy. In a healthy camera market with room to grow it may be a great strategy, but in this shrinking market, being wise in R&D spending probably is the better choice given it's no guarantee you can sell enough to recoup.

Much have been made about Olympus's E-M1X, but if you examine it, a lot of the parts were recycled from the E-M1 II, lowering Olympus's R&D cost.

People also have to keep in mind the lenses make up an important part of sales. The people buying the entry cameras tend to not buy extra lenses other than the kit lenses. I think increasingly camera makers are going to be aiming toward photographers that buy other lenses.

And, more significantly, why as consumers are we buying into this? The em5 mkii was announced just 4 years ago. When did not releasing a camera update for four years become such a crisis and when did any photographer need to upgrade their equipment so frequently?

I think industry release cycles are shorter than that, which is why the anxiety. Olympus has pretty much say E-M5 III is coming, they just need some time (especially given the recent shuffling of their manufacturing).

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Photo Pete Veteran Member • Posts: 4,719
Re: Gearheads and fashionistas
3

Tom Caldwell wrote:

The fact of the financial life of the matter is that manufacturers make gear to service what they think that the market wants.

But the reality is that most camera gear users don’t really know what they want except that think that they wish to get gear that constantly improves the images that they capture with no more effort than forking out some more money.

The reality is that most cameras and lenses currently on offer be they 4/3 sensor types through to medium format types are quite good enough for our photographic purpose.

But in this day of easy-photography and easy-everything from mobile phones right through to pending self-drive cars the thrust is to less effort and dumbing down skill sets.

We cannot make photographic opportunities suddenly appear on demand - some are “created” others just happen before our eyes. Nor can we force would be photographers to learn photographic technique. But we can keep on buying ever better gear in the continually futile attempt to get even better images when the person pressing the shutter does not update themself.

So there are crazes - FF ML is the “new black” - make it they can sell it and the suckers certainly cannot buy it faster than they can make it.

But M4/3 must be good enough for almost anyone but trying to stop lemmings in full flight for that cliff might be quite hard.

Why, after finding that good digital photography was possible with a 4/3 sensor and a mere 16mp sensor in compact gear, is there this pulsating fear that somehow not getting back to near 135 film size kit is going to be left in the dark photographic age? It is irrational. Right from my first tentative serious steps into digital photography with a 2.6mp capture area sensor I have always been happy on the day with what my gear produced. On that day everything was photographically perfect. But sensors and images improved until I thought “this is perfect”. But somehow perfection can be improved on by simply buying more and more gear.

Somewhere we have to draw a line in the sand and admit to our inner self that the gear in our hands is good enough and that is a rational argument.

Olympus has metaphorically said that “we produce great cameras”. That “the 4/3 sensor will become and has become good enough for 99% of normal photography. We have made some “to die for” lenses to go with them”.

But the trouble is that the gearheads and fashionistas by their would be buying patterns are saying that Olympus is wrong and frankly Olympus must be struggling to find the capital to invest in new camera bodies.

If prices are indeed falling then the risk is that new gear in the form of camera bodies is going to be a struggle and Olympus fans need to spend more to have their favourite company survive in a difficult market.

There is no much point in arguing why Olympus and the M4/3 format is good enough for anyone apart from the truly well heeled and technically competent - but of course that defines all of us .... Just ask this forum.

So instead of taking advantage of bargain prices and making things worse for Olympus - why not invest in some of their expensive exotic lenses at RRP and not waiting for the next sale?

This is a quick and more practical way of showing that you care for both Olympus and M4/3 and at he same time take better images “magically” instead of arguing why it might be better and then only buying at a discount. Human nature can often destroy the very thing that they love.

In a disclosure of my own position: I am considering buying a Panasonic S1/S1R not for the purpose of leaving M4/3 where I am very happy but for the ability to re-use my 10-15 year old collection of Canon EF mount lenses alone. Period, I have no intention of re-buying my EF mount lenses in L-Mount. To me this is a common sense point of view.

I am a great believer that small body M4/3 is its future and that trying to emulate FF sensor camera bodies for their “look” status value is a mistake. But the forum revels in “big” M4/3 bodies by buying them - although many complain about this there wasn’t actually a rush to buy GM series cameras at their RRP when they were about.

The E-M1ii and G9 are great cameras but perhaps the E-M1x (excellent camera) is a dagger in the heart of M4/3 as Olympus strives to emulate the status-style of FF ML in M4/3.

I never thought I’d hear the EM1x be described as a dagger. More of a bludgeoning mace if you ask me!

The EM1x is just one option in the m43 range (and a great one for those who like the robustness and secure handling of a built-in grip). Its presence in the line-up doesn’t detract in any way from the other offerings.

Let’s see what the updates to the other, more characteristic, m43 models are like before making any sweeping assumptions on the direction Olympus is taking.

All a bit of a storm in a teacup I think, provided people treat the current vogue for negative internet commentary with the disrespect it deserves!

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Photo Pete

Boss of Sony Senior Member • Posts: 2,050
I agree with the following sentiment:
2

He says, "I'll give Panasonic full credit for this: they make cameras that seem much more like cameras than technology or engineering experiments."

I couldn't agree more.

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Jeff Veteran Member • Posts: 5,711
Facts? He gave no source.
2

NCV wrote:

Thorgrem wrote:

Hogan is telling what people like to hear. Negativity sells and he is payed for giving his opinion and generating clicks with it.

That you find it most fascinating is obvious because you are nagging about it for a long time on this forum. Far to long and far to often to take it seriously.

It is the first time we have seen some numbers that tell us just how M43 is selling.

It is just facts.

He gave no source for those 'facts'.  8% market share ... when was that?  3.3% ... when was that?  And whose numbers?

For what it's worth, you can do some rough back-of-the-envelope calculations using CIPA data. But who knows what he's doing.

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Photo Pete Veteran Member • Posts: 4,719
Reviewers - Worse than I thought
18

My summary... In Thom’s chosen format:

Winners

Lens rentals - Impartial review site with access to multiple copies of equipment. An enthusiasm for the equipment they test and an interest in what they are testing, rather than an obsession with commenting on market speculation, sets them apart from other bloggers

Camera Labs - Tireless one man reviewer who strives to provide impartial and thorough reviews in remarkably short timescales

Losers

Thom Hogan - Once relevant reviewer and technical advisor who has declined into self gratification as an opinionated market ‘expert’. Market share currently fallen to 3%, with most of his remaining visitors only accessing his site to view his archived ‘tripod 101’ article.

Tony and Chelsea - The Ken and Barbie of photography and masters of click bait. Becoming strangely less popular as they get older.

Ken Rockwell - Remains as irrelevant as ever, but still managing to attract a small number of visitors due to his in depth reviews of unreleased cameras that he hasn’t handled.

Fro - Ultimately annoying and overly opinionated with clear bias. Most visitors leave after his initial whining drawl of ‘Fro knowwws photooos’

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Photo Pete

Jeff Veteran Member • Posts: 5,711
Wish I could give this 100 upvotes
2

Spot on!!

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justmeMN Veteran Member • Posts: 8,011
Olympus Mirrorless Unit Sales Numbers
4

NCV wrote:

It is the first time we have seen some numbers that tell us just how M43 is selling.

It is just facts.

Here are Olympus' mirrorless unit sales numbers:

Source: Olympus

https://www.olympus-global.com/ir/data/brief/pdf/Olympus_FY2019_Supplemental_E.pdf

Felice62 Senior Member • Posts: 1,901
Ditto...
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Felice62 Senior Member • Posts: 1,901
Re: Worse than I thought
3

MEDISN wrote:

False. Not all motion in a composition must be frozen. IBIS stabilizes my movement too.

Actually IBIS stabilizes your motion ONLY

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I cook with wine, sometimes I even add it to the food.

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TN Args
TN Args Veteran Member • Posts: 8,103
Re: Worse than I thought
3

Felice62 wrote:

MEDISN wrote:

False. Not all motion in a composition must be frozen. IBIS stabilizes my movement too.

Actually IBIS stabilizes your motion ONLY

Not your absolute motion. Just your motion relative to the scene.

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NCV
OP NCV Veteran Member • Posts: 8,902
FF can get you worse results.
1

We live in a strange world where logic does not seem to rule.

It is quite true for those of us who Know what we are doing that the current M43 cameras produce output far above what we used to shoot with our SLR's. So it is less necessary to change cameras so often. In fact I could happily use my EM5's until they break down, which is the case with one of my bodies.

I am using FF too these days and have found that I can get better results than M43 in some situations as expected, but I can also get worse results in some situations which is not generally understood unless you actually practice photography.

The market seems to want big cameras and lenses for some reason, probably as big stuff is more impressive and "Pro looking", and so the manufacturers have to satisfy what the market wants.

It was a joy when I discovered the GF3 which is where I would have probably stopped, but I needed a viewfinder on the camera. The GX1 with attachable VF was another great camera.

Another great camera is the LX100, I did a whole project with this great little camera and it is fantastic for "street"

There is no better system than an EM5 sort of camera with the smaller more logical Panasonic lenses for travel, hiking and the sort of stuff that 99% of us do. I am going to shoot a friends concert soon. It will be M43 rather than FF as my EM5 and 35-100 is far more discrete.

It remains a great mystery to me why what would be the most logical ILC system for most is languishing at about 3% of market share for the two major participants of this format. It is a format that has never really "taken off" as I expected when at about the time the EM5 came out and seemed revolutionary.

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NCV
OP NCV Veteran Member • Posts: 8,902
Re: Reviewers - Worse than I thought
2

You forgot Mike Johnston, the best commentator of them all on his often quirky TOP blog.

One of the very few who actually talks about photographs now and again.

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Felice62 Senior Member • Posts: 1,901
Re: Worse than I thought
1

TN Args wrote:

Felice62 wrote:

MEDISN wrote:

False. Not all motion in a composition must be frozen. IBIS stabilizes my movement too.

Actually IBIS stabilizes your motion ONLY

Not your absolute motion. Just your motion relative to the scene.

Thanks for detailing

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Wu Jiaqiu
Wu Jiaqiu Forum Pro • Posts: 24,204
Re: Facts? He gave no source.
4

Jeff wrote:

NCV wrote:

Thorgrem wrote:

Hogan is telling what people like to hear. Negativity sells and he is payed for giving his opinion and generating clicks with it.

That you find it most fascinating is obvious because you are nagging about it for a long time on this forum. Far to long and far to often to take it seriously.

It is the first time we have seen some numbers that tell us just how M43 is selling.

It is just facts.

He gave no source for those 'facts'. 8% market share ... when was that? 3.3% ... when was that? And whose numbers?

For what it's worth, you can do some rough back-of-the-envelope calculations using CIPA data. But who knows what he's doing.

well if you use financial reports e.t.c. you can see how many units Olympus claim to have sold, then see how many cameras sold or shipped globally and it's quite easy especially with a calculator to see what their market share is, if anyone doesn't believe the figures then they can go and find out for themselves

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JaKing
JaKing Senior Member • Posts: 5,366
Re: Worse than I thought
2

Felice62 wrote:

TN Args wrote:

Felice62 wrote:

MEDISN wrote:

False. Not all motion in a composition must be frozen. IBIS stabilizes my movement too.

Actually IBIS stabilizes your motion ONLY

Not your absolute motion. Just your motion relative to the scene.

Thanks for detailing

Felice, this photo was taken from a moving semi-pontoon footbridge with a hundred or so people walking across it. The bridge, camera and me were all moving. The IBIS made this shot possible.

Eureka tower, Melbourne.

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Pixnat2
Pixnat2 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,684
Is it so important?
8

Olympus has released few cameras in recent years compared to other companies.

Some say that it's partly due to moving their production to Vietnam, which has impacted their production capacity.

If Olympus releases the EM5.3 this year, it will possibly increase their market share.

But is market share really important?

Being profitable with a smaller market share is better than the opposite.

Olympus being profitable in the short term with a smaller market share is a better scenario than keeping their 8% and losing money.

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gary0319
gary0319 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,775
Re: FF can get you worse results.
3

NCV wrote:

We live in a strange world where logic does not seem to rule.

It is quite true for those of us who Know what we are doing that the current M43 cameras produce output far above what we used to shoot with our SLR's. So it is less necessary to change cameras so often. In fact I could happily use my EM5's until they break down, which is the case with one of my bodies.

I am using FF too these days and have found that I can get better results than M43 in some situations as expected, but I can also get worse results in some situations which is not generally understood unless you actually practice photography.

The market seems to want big cameras and lenses for some reason, probably as big stuff is more impressive and "Pro looking", and so the manufacturers have to satisfy what the market wants.

It was a joy when I discovered the GF3 which is where I would have probably stopped, but I needed a viewfinder on the camera. The GX1 with attachable VF was another great camera.

Another great camera is the LX100, I did a whole project with this great little camera and it is fantastic for "street"

There is no better system than an EM5 sort of camera with the smaller more logical Panasonic lenses for travel, hiking and the sort of stuff that 99% of us do. I am going to shoot a friends concert soon. It will be M43 rather than FF as my EM5 and 35-100 is far more discrete.

It remains a great mystery to me why what would be the most logical ILC system for most is languishing at about 3% of market share for the two major participants of this format. It is a format that has never really "taken off" as I expected when at about the time the EM5 came out and seemed revolutionary.

I submit that it might be threads like this one that certainly contribute to any decline in market share...be it real or not.

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