Worse than I thought

Started 2 months ago | Discussions
tokumeino Senior Member • Posts: 2,323
Re: Canon made a prediction about the industry - people here laughed
1

esco wrote:

You're absolutely right and that's because the mainstream demographic and even many of those that flirt with the idea of photography aren't going to go as far as to carry an additional piece of gear that overlaps much of the functions that their own phone does.
We saw this happen with navigation devices, sound recorders, portable computing, mobile music players etc. . .those markets have become erradicated or highly consolidated into a premium and or professional niche for those that did survive (for photography this will be products like Leica, FF, Fully fleshed out 4k/8k etc. . .because they present a product that is aimed towards the wealthy, hardcore enthusiasts and pros with capabilities on a magnitude far higher than phones by comparisons) It's harder to make that case with small sensor cameras despite how great they can be in all honesty.

In the film days, as a child, I've used many small Kodak orange cameras with only one film inside, that you directly give to the shop. That was the equivalent of smartphones.

My father had an actual camera, with only one lens, and his was bringning his films to the shop as well. But the pictures were much better. That's the equivalent of my Fuji or former M43 gear, with kit lenses and afordable primes.

We could see other people with massive lenses, some of them even developing films by themselves, in a dark room. Taht was the above category.
Rough categories, but digital photography is perhaps finally structuring arround similar use cases...

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absquatulate Forum Pro • Posts: 10,196
Re: Worse than I thought
1

tokumeino wrote:

NCV wrote:

I pass by Hogan's site every so often to see his often interesting thoughts on the camera industry. I do not always agree with what he says.

But reading through this article he give the value of Olympus's market share in the ILC market. The figures are quite shocking. They are now at 3.3% down from a fairly recent healthy 8% when they had a winning team of cameras on the market.

How did this come about? In my opinion for the general sort of photography that most people do like travel, family and that sort of stuff, M43 would seem the obvious choice.

As a former M43 user, that is exactly what I throught. But for some (financial) matter, I had to sold my M43 gear for a 1" compact (just so as to continue making pictures). When I could aford a system again, I've used to look at the crowd with a fresh eye, since it was a new start.

I'm not bashing or trolling here, and I really enjoyed my M43 gear (and especially the Pana 14-140 and the Pana 25/1.4). I mean : really. But Fuji's awfully slow AF issues beeing solved, I've chosen APSC : body sizes are equivalent, lenses are comparable as well, and base ISO is cleaner on APSC.

Good luck keeping at base ISO with a Fuji camera that has no ibis compared to an M4/3's camera which has 6 stops worth.

In my (external) opinion, M43 was attractive as long as they used to maintain their "spirit" with the small yet good enough thing. With Pens, pancake lenses and such. That's only my opinion but Olympus, by designing always larger gear, digged its own grave. When I came back and looked at recent lenses and road maps, I couldn't see anything attractive. F/1.0 lenses at the pricepoint they asked ? Come'on... Why would I buy a low max-DR body if I don't have a sensible size and price advantage ?

Note that I'm always talking about low/base ISO, not high ISO. My Fuji body is not better than my M43 gear, provided I have a fast enough lens on my M43 body. Panasonic is actually better than Fuji in low light because it can focus in extrelely low light, where a Fuji hunts. But when exposure time is not an issue, then a larger sensor really provide cleaner pictures. Yes I can ETTR to maximize exposure with M43, but I can do it with a larger sensor as well.

If I already had many M43 lenses, I surely would have continued. But with a fresh start, I didn't choose M43 again.

Paul Auclair Veteran Member • Posts: 5,312
Re: Worse than I thought
7

NCV wrote:

But reading through this article he give the value of Olympus's market share in the ILC market. The figures are quite shocking. They are now at 3.3% down from a fairly recent healthy 8% when they had a winning team of cameras on the market.

How much has the recent focus on "bloatware" bodies and big hyper fast lenses has played a part in this decline?

it is solely due to the highend "bloatware bodies and big hyper fast lenses" stuff that  Olympus remains afloat.

who really knows...just another opinion based on no facts whatsoever.

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as always,
thank you fellow DPR members for your kind words and encouragement.

SpinOne Veteran Member • Posts: 3,918
Re: Worse than I thought
9

NCV wrote:

I pass by Hogan's site every so often to see his often interesting thoughts on the camera industry. I do not always agree with what he says.

But reading through this article he give the value of Olympus's market share in the ILC market. The figures are quite shocking. They are now at 3.3% down from a fairly recent healthy 8% when they had a winning team of cameras on the market.

sigh

Market share doesn't matter -- especially in a shrinking market. Profitability is what matters.

Thom is unsurprisingly vague about his timeline and sources. When did Olympus have 8%? Was it profitable at that time? Which companies gained market share? Are those companies profitable? The ILC market is already shrinking, which competitors are positioned well to lose more sales figures?

What's the alternative? Switching to 35mm or even APS sensors won't increase market share, as those spaces are already crowded, and doing so would be enormously expensive. Adding better video features will help a bit, but won't turn Olympus into Canon.

Last but not least: Who cares? Either Olympus gear works for you, or it doesn't. It's not like they will exit the camera business tomorrow.

All this terror over the fate of camera companies is ridiculous. They're just tools, people. Yeesh.

Felice62 Senior Member • Posts: 1,925
Re: Worse than I thought
3

Good luck keeping at base ISO with a Fuji camera that has no ibis compared to an M4/3's camera which has 6 stops worth.

the 6 Fstop figures are only worth when shooting immobilized scenes.

At that stage you had a tripod to anything capable of taking a picture and your 6 stop advantage is gone for good...

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Martin Ocando
MOD Martin Ocando Veteran Member • Posts: 6,282
That wasn't my experience in Europe
13

I saw quite a few Olympus and Panasonic cameras, all over Europe. Many E-M1s, a few E-M5 Mark II, and quite a lot Panasonics. A few FF DSLRs, and just a handful Sonys. The mainstream was always Canon APS-C kits, which they usually sell in buckets. It was a surprise, really. I wasn't expecting to see so many m43 cameras.

BTW, I wonder what would be the intention of this thread. I can see that is a controversial topic, merely subjective and just the opinion of a self-proclaimed "industry expert" simply because he has a photography blog. So I'm worried that it might contribute to the toxicity of this forum so many times complained by the OP.

We'll keep an eye on this thread.

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Martin
"One of the biggest mistakes a photographer can make is to look at the real world and cling to the vain hope that next time his film will somehow bear a closer resemblance to it" - Galen Rowell

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absquatulate Forum Pro • Posts: 10,196
Re: Worse than I thought

Felice62 wrote:

Good luck keeping at base ISO with a Fuji camera that has no ibis compared to an M4/3's camera which has 6 stops worth.

the 6 Fstop figures are only worth when shooting immobilized scenes.

Or if you want handheld creative effects, or lower shutter speeds using telephoto lenses, or the ability to handhold rather than using a tripod....

At that stage you had a tripod to anything capable of taking a picture and your 6 stop advantage is gone for good...

Great, that's just what people want sightseeing at night, a tripod to hump about.

Martin Ocando
MOD Martin Ocando Veteran Member • Posts: 6,282
Re: Worse than I thought
2

NCV wrote:

epozar wrote:

600 euros in e-infinity

Grey market from the Far East.

I have an E-M1, an E-M5 Mark II, a 12-40mm 2.8 and a 35-100 2.8 all grey marker from far east. They all work great, have been working great for years, not a single hiccup (other than the usual E-M1 rear dial pitfalls), and will buy again in the blink of an eye.

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Martin
"One of the biggest mistakes a photographer can make is to look at the real world and cling to the vain hope that next time his film will somehow bear a closer resemblance to it" - Galen Rowell

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Felice62 Senior Member • Posts: 1,925
Re: Worse than I thought
2

absquatulate wrote:

At that stage you had a tripod to anything capable of taking a picture and your 6 stop advantage is gone for good...

Great, that's just what people want sightseeing at night, a tripod to hump about.

So your business case is built around handheld night photography?

Good luck with it

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tokumeino Senior Member • Posts: 2,323
Re: Worse than I thought
3

Felice62 wrote:

Good luck keeping at base ISO with a Fuji camera that has no ibis compared to an M4/3's camera which has 6 stops worth.

the 6 Fstop figures are only worth when shooting immobilized scenes.

At that stage you had a tripod to anything capable of taking a picture and your 6 stop advantage is gone for good...

Most of the time, I'm not making pictures of rocks only. Even tree branches do move a bit.

More seriously, I really believed that I would miss IBIS. But actually, it was not the case. I'm shooting daylight most of the time. And indoor in dull light, I'm mostly shooting people anyway, where IBIS don't help. For people, I only had to learn a bit of technique to keep my hands a bit steadier.

For video, it makes a really huge difference. But not for photography, and at least not for me.

Of course, if you shoot cityscapes by night and don't want to use a tripod, then IBIS helps. But in real life, there is no such thing as a X stops difference. Note that many lenses are stabilize, and that even if OIS is not spectacular in videos, it can however help for stills.

I'm now owning Fuji gear for more than one year so it's not new and I know the shortcomings, among which the lack of IBIS if far from beeing the most important one.

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absquatulate Forum Pro • Posts: 10,196
Re: Worse than I thought

Felice62 wrote:

absquatulate wrote:

At that stage you had a tripod to anything capable of taking a picture and your 6 stop advantage is gone for good...

Great, that's just what people want sightseeing at night, a tripod to hump about.

So your business case is built around handheld night photography?

I don't have a business case, and ibis is extremely useful in all kinds of light during the day as well as night, and for telephoto work.

Good luck with it

Good luck with Fuji and all that "base ISO" shooting you do without a tripod

absquatulate Forum Pro • Posts: 10,196
Re: Worse than I thought

tokumeino wrote:

Felice62 wrote:

Good luck keeping at base ISO with a Fuji camera that has no ibis compared to an M4/3's camera which has 6 stops worth.

the 6 Fstop figures are only worth when shooting immobilized scenes.

At that stage you had a tripod to anything capable of taking a picture and your 6 stop advantage is gone for good...

Most of the time, I'm not making pictures of rocks only. Even tree branches do move a bit.

More seriously, I really believed that I would miss IBIS. But actually, it was not the case. I'm shooting daylight most of the time. And indoor in dull light, I'm mostly shooting people anyway, where IBIS don't help. For people, I only had to learn a bit of technique to keep my hands a bit steadier.

For video, it makes a really huge difference. But not for photography, and at least not for me.

Of course, if you shoot cityscapes by night and don't want to use a tripod, then IBIS helps. But in real life, there is no such thing as a X stops difference. Note that many lenses are stabilize, and that even if OIS is not spectacular in videos, it can however help for stills.

I'm now owning Fuji gear for more than one year so it's not new and I know the shortcomings, among which the lack of IBIS if far from beeing the most important one.

It very much depends on what and how you shoot of course, for me it's a huge gain.

Felice62 Senior Member • Posts: 1,925
Re: Worse than I thought
1

tokumeino wrote:

Felice62 wrote:

Good luck keeping at base ISO with a Fuji camera that has no ibis compared to an M4/3's camera which has 6 stops worth.

the 6 Fstop figures are only worth when shooting immobilized scenes.

At that stage you had a tripod to anything capable of taking a picture and your 6 stop advantage is gone for good...

Most of the time, I'm not making pictures of rocks only. Even tree branches do move a bit.

More seriously, I really believed that I would miss IBIS. But actually, it was not the case. I'm shooting daylight most of the time. And indoor in dull light, I'm mostly shooting people anyway, where IBIS don't help. For people, I only had to learn a bit of technique to keep my hands a bit steadier.

For video, it makes a really huge difference. But not for photography, and at least not for me.

Of course, if you shoot cityscapes by night and don't want to use a tripod, then IBIS helps. But in real life, there is no such thing as a X stops difference. Note that many lenses are stabilize, and that even if OIS is not spectacular in videos, it can however help for stills.

I'm now owning Fuji gear for more than one year so it's not new and I know the shortcomings, among which the lack of IBIS if far from beeing the most important one.

That's what I say. The x F-stop marketing blabla isn't that relevant other than a few circumstances. My A7rii also has IBIS so it's not a mft only gadget. Also many lenses have stabilization. The days I was using Canon gear my 'better' lenses' had IS. That was back in 2008....

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mmartel Regular Member • Posts: 428
Re: They should ...
2

jwilliams wrote:

They should engrave an image of the EM1x on the headstone of Olympus when the time comes (and it might not be far away).

I've never seen a company blow a lead in an industry (mirrorless cameras) like they have.

Yahoo? AOL? Nokia? Sun Microsystems? IBM? Kodak?!

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tokumeino Senior Member • Posts: 2,323
Re: Worse than I thought
2

absquatulate wrote:

It very much depends on what and how you shoot of course, for me it's a huge gain.

Exactly. I'm not stating that IBIS is useless. This would be stupid. It completely depends on the usage and it is not because I don't have a use case, that somebody else doesn't.

Just, in my case, refering to years of keepers with my M43 gear (as many : travel, people, casual snaps that some call "street"), I was hard pressed to find one where IBIS would have been decisive when compared to OIS, or even nothing. I nevertheless was afraid to miss IBIS, but it was not the case.

But again, I don't deny that there are other usages than travel and people. It's just a matter of style. For instance, I believe that IBIS can be very useful for hand held macro, typically. Or night shots of still objects for instance.

Just, what people should be aware of is : just by learning how to properly hang a camera, you easily gain 3 stops against just raising the thing and pushing the button. That plus OIS of tele lenses, and really many needs get covered.

The question is : if my Fuji camera had IBIS, in all honesty, would I turn it off ? No, surely not. And anybody stating that IBIS is completely BS would let it on after actually trying. I've tried both ways and I know that IBIS is a nice thing to have but one shouldn't overstate the feature and keep a bit balanced.

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Paul Auclair Veteran Member • Posts: 5,312
not my experience in Canada as of late either

Martin Ocando wrote:

I saw quite a few Olympus and Panasonic cameras, all over Europe. Many E-M1s, a few E-M5 Mark II, and quite a lot Panasonics. A few FF DSLRs, and just a handful Sonys. The mainstream was always Canon APS-C kits, which they usually sell in buckets. It was a surprise, really. I wasn't expecting to see so many m43 cameras.

when I get “out” of my house to use my camera, ie. in a forest, I might see m4/3 (any mix of Pana/Oly lenses bodies) shooters once in a while and certainly not on every occasion.
On the 12th of may I was out in the forest and I must have seen 6-8 other camera operators. I saw 2 Lumix models and one Oly mk2. So including myself (EM1X) half or more of the birders were shooting m4/3s.

BTW, I wonder what would be the intention of this thread. I can see that is a controversial topic, merely subjective and just the opinion of a self-proclaimed "industry expert" simply because he has a photography blog. So I'm worried that it might contribute to the toxicity of this forum so many times complained by the OP.

We'll keep an eye on this thread.

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Martin
"One of the biggest mistakes a photographer can make is to look at the real world and cling to the vain hope that next time his film will somehow bear a closer resemblance to it" - Galen Rowell

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as always,
thank you fellow DPR members for your kind words and encouragement.

NCV
OP NCV Veteran Member • Posts: 8,927
Re: That wasn't my experience in Europe
4

Martin Ocando wrote:

I saw quite a few Olympus and Panasonic cameras, all over Europe. Many E-M1s, a few E-M5 Mark II, and quite a lot Panasonics. A few FF DSLRs, and just a handful Sonys. The mainstream was always Canon APS-C kits, which they usually sell in buckets. It was a surprise, really. I wasn't expecting to see so many m43 cameras.

BTW, I wonder what would be the intention of this thread. I can see that is a controversial topic, merely subjective and just the opinion of a self-proclaimed "industry expert" simply because he has a photography blog. So I'm worried that it might contribute to the toxicity of this forum so many times complained by the OP.

We'll keep an eye on this thread.

Hogan is one of the more serious commentators with a long track record. I just found those numbers surprising, I had always imagined that they had a constant sort of share, not one that has lost 5% in just a few months or years.

Here in Europe it is true that one sees a lot of M43 around, I have a local dealer that pushes M43 quite hard.

But I think it is worth watching those numbers in this strange moment for photography. Olympus have form when it comes to abandoning systems. They did it with film cameras and they did it with 4/3.

I use the trade in value of my equipment to upgrade, Like many, it makes my photography affordable. Digital photography gear has a useful life of about five or six years now.

I am due to replace my aging EM5's next year or so. If I continue with M43, I want to buy gear that has a good possibility of being supported over time. I do not want to find myself in the position of those who bought a rather good Samsung camera and then found it out that Samsung had stopped making cameras.

As for "toxicity", well what I have objected to was the guy who wished me a "nasty end". In fact I lodged a complaint to DPR to which I have had no reply yet.

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JakeJY Senior Member • Posts: 3,129
Re: Worse than I thought

SpinOne wrote:

NCV wrote:

I pass by Hogan's site every so often to see his often interesting thoughts on the camera industry. I do not always agree with what he says.

But reading through this article he give the value of Olympus's market share in the ILC market. The figures are quite shocking. They are now at 3.3% down from a fairly recent healthy 8% when they had a winning team of cameras on the market.

sigh

Market share doesn't matter -- especially in a shrinking market. Profitability is what matters.

Thom is unsurprisingly vague about his timeline and sources. When did Olympus have 8%? Was it profitable at that time? Which companies gained market share? Are those companies profitable? The ILC market is already shrinking, which competitors are positioned well to lose more sales figures?

What's the alternative? Switching to 35mm or even APS sensors won't increase market share, as those spaces are already crowded, and doing so would be enormously expensive. Adding better video features will help a bit, but won't turn Olympus into Canon.

Last but not least: Who cares? Either Olympus gear works for you, or it doesn't. It's not like they will exit the camera business tomorrow.

All this terror over the fate of camera companies is ridiculous. They're just tools, people. Yeesh.

I agree totally. There is also a mischaracterization of Thom's statement by NCV. It actually says: "Olympus peaked at near 8% ILC market share and is now down to 3.3%".

So it doesn't say the 8% is "fairly recent". We actually don't know what time period either figure covers, so hard to make an analysis.

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absquatulate Forum Pro • Posts: 10,196
Re: Worse than I thought

tokumeino wrote:

absquatulate wrote:

It very much depends on what and how you shoot of course, for me it's a huge gain.

Exactly. I'm not stating that IBIS is useless. This would be stupid. It completely depends on the usage and it is not because I don't have a use case, that somebody else doesn't.

Just, in my case, refering to years of keepers with my M43 gear (as many : travel, people, casual snaps that some call "street"), I was hard pressed to find one where IBIS would have been decisive when compared to OIS, or even nothing. I nevertheless was afraid to miss IBIS, but it was not the case.

But again, I don't deny that there are other usages than travel and people. It's just a matter of style. For instance, I believe that IBIS can be very useful for hand held macro, typically. Or night shots of still objects for instance.

Just, what people should be aware of is : just by learning how to properly hang a camera, you easily gain 3 stops against just raising the thing and pushing the button. That plus OIS of tele lenses, and really many needs get covered.

The question is : if my Fuji camera had IBIS, in all honesty, would I turn it off ? No, surely not. And anybody stating that IBIS is completely BS would let it on after actually trying. I've tried both ways and I know that IBIS is a nice thing to have but one shouldn't overstate the feature and keep a bit balanced.

Sure, I understand that, however, there's IBIS and then there's the phenomenal IBIS found on the E-M1 and G9, which is on another level again. For me this is a big win, for what I shoot, which is mostly static scenes. It can mean the difference between getting the shot or missing it because I'm not carrying a tripod. Or getting a razor sharp shot shooting telephoto at shutter speeds I could not use even with OIS. Of course if you shoot a lot of movement in lower light then m4/3's is not going to be your first choice. I had the A7S, with a lens with OIS, and I can get better quality shots with my G9 for what I like to shoot, and I can do that a lot cheaper as well, with far greater lens choice. I also didn't find Fuji much better than m4/3's in lower light, the difference is minimal compared to the huge difference 6 stops of IBIS makes for me. The A7S obviously is better but other factors also make it worse, such as dof differences, for how I shoot. The telephoto factor on FF is also a PITA, you need big expensive lenses to make the most of it.

SpinOne Veteran Member • Posts: 3,918
Re: That wasn't my experience in Europe
5

NCV wrote:

I am due to replace my aging EM5's next year or so. If I continue with M43, I want to buy gear that has a good possibility of being supported over time.

Olympus is not going to stop supporting cameras.

I do not want to find myself in the position of those who bought a rather good Samsung camera and then found it out that Samsung had stopped making cameras.

C'mon, man.

Samsung cameras did not suddenly stop working when Samsung exited the market. You can still get bodies and lenses.

Heck, film has been essentially dead over a decade -- almost no new bodies or lenses made. And yet, you can still buy film cameras, lenses for film mounts, film, developers, papers, enlargers, scanners, and so on.

All that matters is what works for you, not bloggers guessing about horse-races.

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