SR1 high res macro

Started May 6, 2019 | Discussions
Keith Cooper
Keith Cooper Senior Member • Posts: 2,565
SR1 high res macro
9

A few more experiments with the SR1 and a new 100/2.8 macro lens and high res mode have convinced me that it's potentially superb...

The 'potentially' refers to the really small DOF you have to work with when using any macro lens wide open. This will limit many, by requiring stacking to get any significant DOF, whilst the lack of  motion controller support and more importantly no flash firing when making super-res shots, will just up the difficulty a bit more

I'm not into the bugs/plants/fungi staples of the macro photography world, so you'll have to wait in that area (I'm sure using that 187MP will be taken as a challenge by some ) but here's a super res shot of an old 8255a PIO chip, with a full res crop.

The 16 bit .psd file of this image is ~1.12GB BTW

This was shot using mode 1

Mode 2 allows for a bit of movement, so is better for real world photos

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Keith Cooper

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James Stirling
James Stirling Senior Member • Posts: 8,042
Re: SR1 high res macro

Keith Cooper wrote:

A few more experiments with the SR1 and a new 100/2.8 macro lens and high res mode have convinced me that it's potentially superb...

The 'potentially' refers to the really small DOF you have to work with when using any macro lens wide open. This will limit many, by requiring stacking to get any significant DOF, whilst the lack of motion controller support and more importantly no flash firing when making super-res shots, will just up the difficulty a bit more

I'm not into the bugs/plants/fungi staples of the macro photography world, so you'll have to wait in that area (I'm sure using that 187MP will be taken as a challenge by some ) but here's a super res shot of an old 8255a PIO chip, with a full res crop.

The 16 bit .psd file of this image is ~1.12GB BTW

This was shot using mode 1

Mode 2 allows for a bit of movement, so is better for real world photos

That is some serious detail Keith , not sure I would want to see the more common and more gruesome macro bug shots at this kind of detail I hoped to see some more high res form the S1 as well I did post a thread but never got a lot of replies

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Jim Stirling
“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” John Adams

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MOD Tom Caldwell Forum Pro • Posts: 41,708
Re: SR1 high res macro

James Stirling wrote:

Keith Cooper wrote:

A few more experiments with the SR1 and a new 100/2.8 macro lens and high res mode have convinced me that it's potentially superb...

The 'potentially' refers to the really small DOF you have to work with when using any macro lens wide open. This will limit many, by requiring stacking to get any significant DOF, whilst the lack of motion controller support and more importantly no flash firing when making super-res shots, will just up the difficulty a bit more

I'm not into the bugs/plants/fungi staples of the macro photography world, so you'll have to wait in that area (I'm sure using that 187MP will be taken as a challenge by some ) but here's a super res shot of an old 8255a PIO chip, with a full res crop.

The 16 bit .psd file of this image is ~1.12GB BTW

This was shot using mode 1

Mode 2 allows for a bit of movement, so is better for real world photos

That is some serious detail Keith , not sure I would want to see the more common and more gruesome macro bug shots at this kind of detail I hoped to see some more high res form the S1 as well I did post a thread but never got a lot of replies

It seems that this product (S1/S1R) might be becoming a game-changer product that is only going to be limited by the ideas on what it can be used for.

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Tom Caldwell

Ken60 Senior Member • Posts: 2,305
Re: SR1 high res macro

Keith while your playing with the S1R in high res mode, any chance of a 100% comparison of a native optic and an adapted Canon EF ?

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James Stirling
James Stirling Senior Member • Posts: 8,042
Re: SR1 high res macro

Tom Caldwell wrote:

James Stirling wrote:

Keith Cooper wrote:

A few more experiments with the SR1 and a new 100/2.8 macro lens and high res mode have convinced me that it's potentially superb...

The 'potentially' refers to the really small DOF you have to work with when using any macro lens wide open. This will limit many, by requiring stacking to get any significant DOF, whilst the lack of motion controller support and more importantly no flash firing when making super-res shots, will just up the difficulty a bit more

I'm not into the bugs/plants/fungi staples of the macro photography world, so you'll have to wait in that area (I'm sure using that 187MP will be taken as a challenge by some ) but here's a super res shot of an old 8255a PIO chip, with a full res crop.

The 16 bit .psd file of this image is ~1.12GB BTW

This was shot using mode 1

Mode 2 allows for a bit of movement, so is better for real world photos

That is some serious detail Keith , not sure I would want to see the more common and more gruesome macro bug shots at this kind of detail I hoped to see some more high res form the S1 as well I did post a thread but never got a lot of replies

It seems that this product (S1/S1R) might be becoming a game-changer product that is only going to be limited by the ideas on what it can be used for.

Tom . the more I see about these cameras the more interesting they get. I do just enough video { mainly with m43 } that the video features of the S1 are sorely tempting . Am I right in assuming that they use the same flash connection as m43 { an excuse about saving some money }

After trying out the Z7 I was/am confirmed to moving to it from Sony. I have been holding off to see if the rumoured Techart FE to Z mount adapter works , as I would love to continue using a few of my Sony lenses on the Nikon. My AF needs are humble so I am hopeful .

I have never been happy with the ergonomics of the Sony bodies and since trying the Z7 model in person the Sony's feel even worse . I am scared to try a S1/R hands on as I think they may be even better. I have been very happy with the ergonomics of Panasonic

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mcsey2k1 Regular Member • Posts: 297
Re: SR1 high res macro

Very nice high rez shot. Thanks for sharing.

Kind Regards,

J-

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Keith Cooper
OP Keith Cooper Senior Member • Posts: 2,565
Re: SR1 high res macro

Ken60 wrote:

Keith while your playing with the S1R in high res mode, any chance of a 100% comparison of a native optic and an adapted Canon EF ?

Sorry, I don't really have any Canon lenses that fairly match up with the Panasonic ones I have in a meaningful way

So, my 70-200 is the original 2.8L IS, my 50/1.4 is the EF 50/1.4 and I have the original 24-70 2.8L IS.

I don't see any comparison as showing any info of relevance? Was there something else you were thinking of?

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Keith Cooper

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Ken60 Senior Member • Posts: 2,305
Re: SR1 high res macro

I was interested to see how Canon EF lenses with adapting , worked compared to OEM lenses, and felt that this 180mp mode might be an interesting test. I have seen a few Hi Res files and did wonder what runs out first, the sensor or the lens at that resolution.

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Keith Cooper
OP Keith Cooper Senior Member • Posts: 2,565
Re: SR1 high res macro

Ken60 wrote:

I was interested to see how Canon EF lenses with adapting , worked compared to OEM lenses, and felt that this 180mp mode might be an interesting test. I have seen a few Hi Res files and did wonder what runs out first, the sensor or the lens at that resolution.

Indeed - the problem is that I don't really have the lenses to do a true like for like comparison.

I tested the S1R with my TS-E24mm mk2 lens, which is pretty good. I was hoping to try the new TS-E50 or 90 both of which are stunningly good even wide open, but Canon couldn't loan me any in time.

Based on what I have tried, the ~187MP mode needs a good support, and outdoors, a still day. I've not been all over the shots I tried but there were no obvious patches of moire.  It's quite possible that my TS-E24 (and DOF limits) worked at reducing that with a touch of softness

As I discovered when moving from the 1Ds mk3 to the 5Ds a few years ago (21MP to 50MP) - a rising tide floats all boats. So even my 1962 Tamron twin-tele 135mm (M42 mount) looks better on the 5Ds than the 1Ds3. There isn't really a 'running out', just diminishing returns depending on all kinds of factors.

To really answer these questions requires some exceedingly good glass and a bit more time than I've had available (it all goes back tomorrow)

Also at anything more than say f/4 the image will startto show softening from diffraction (I leave exact calculations as an exercise for those whose should get out more )

In real world photos I'd likely take with the 24mm (architecture) such a wide aperture is likely a bit too narrow a DOF, and also since I'm likely using some shift, I'll want perhaps f/8-11 to allow for using outer parts of the image circle.

With the new Laowa macro lens a bit of softening starts being noticeable on my 5Ds (or the S1R in normal mode) at f/5.6.

When the Laowa 100 is officially launched I've a review that includes detailed test images at a number of apertures (although since it's at 2x macro, they are just the nominal set apertures)

I'll have something written up for the S1R in a few weeks or so (I'm working away a bit over the next few weeks) - I'll mention here when it's done, but DPR really don't like me mentioning URLs unless they are in direct response to other people's questions (fair enough - this isn't a complaint BTW)

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Keith Cooper

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Keith Cooper
OP Keith Cooper Senior Member • Posts: 2,565
Re: SR1 high res macro

Tom Caldwell wrote:

James Stirling wrote:

Keith Cooper wrote:

A few more experiments with the SR1 and a new 100/2.8 macro lens and high res mode have convinced me that it's potentially superb...

The 'potentially' refers to the really small DOF you have to work with when using any macro lens wide open. This will limit many, by requiring stacking to get any significant DOF, whilst the lack of motion controller support and more importantly no flash firing when making super-res shots, will just up the difficulty a bit more

I'm not into the bugs/plants/fungi staples of the macro photography world, so you'll have to wait in that area (I'm sure using that 187MP will be taken as a challenge by some ) but here's a super res shot of an old 8255a PIO chip, with a full res crop.

The 16 bit .psd file of this image is ~1.12GB BTW

This was shot using mode 1

Mode 2 allows for a bit of movement, so is better for real world photos

That is some serious detail Keith , not sure I would want to see the more common and more gruesome macro bug shots at this kind of detail I hoped to see some more high res form the S1 as well I did post a thread but never got a lot of replies

It seems that this product (S1/S1R) might be becoming a game-changer product that is only going to be limited by the ideas on what it can be used for.

The -only- limitation (or annoyance really) I've come across in the couple of weeks I've had the camera and lenses is dust. I'm really thinking that having the sensor 'open' when changing lenses is not such a good idea. The sensor picked up (and retained) more tiny specks (visible at f/16) in a couple of weeks than my 5Ds has since 2015

I note that the EOS RP keeps the sensor visible, whilst the EOS R closes the shutter - based on experience of late I'd like the shutter closed when not in use.

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bye for now
Keith Cooper

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Canon EOS 5DS Canon TS-E 17mm f/4L Canon EF 8-15mm f/4L Fisheye USM Canon TS-E 24mm f/3.5L II
Ken60 Senior Member • Posts: 2,305
Re: SR1 high res macro

Look forward to seeing what your up to , thanks.

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Gear ... what I need to get the job done , after all you don't see mechanics listing their brand of spanner as a qualification .

Ken60 Senior Member • Posts: 2,305
Re: SR1 high res macro

The -only- limitation (or annoyance really) I've come across in the couple of weeks I've had the camera and lenses is dust. I'm really thinking that having the sensor 'open' when changing lenses is not such a good idea. The sensor picked up (and retained) more tiny specks (visible at f/16) in a couple of weeks than my 5Ds has since 2015

I note that the EOS RP keeps the sensor visible, whilst the EOS R closes the shutter - based on experience of late I'd like the shutter closed when not in use.

Keith you reinforce what I said on day one !

I mentioned that if they remove everything as a barrier from the path and narrow down the depth of the mirror box, you are almost guaranteed to see dust, on the level of the old 5D and worse. I was told it would not be a problem etc etc ....  Not until you return home with 150  images that need polishing for a client in a rush, and everyone looks like it was shot with birdshot.

Having the barrier across the shutter , or as the shutter , means that the mirror box fills up with all the microparticles in the air . WHY can't some genius that can think past the end of their nose not make a blind (or iris)  over the throat of the camera, with a mechanism that retracts for the lens.  If they have ever stood in a town with the wind blowing down the streets , trying to remove one lens whilst holding another for a quick change............. to do this without dropping something, or leaving everything open long enough to guarantee problems later, is a joke.  Good move to Canon for seeing the problem and reacting , but I think it has more room to go .

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Gear ... what I need to get the job done , after all you don't see mechanics listing their brand of spanner as a qualification .

ZilverHaylide Contributing Member • Posts: 668
Re: SR1 high res macro

Keith Cooper wrote:

Ken60 wrote:

I was interested to see how Canon EF lenses with adapting , worked compared to OEM lenses, and felt that this 180mp mode might be an interesting test. I have seen a few Hi Res files and did wonder what runs out first, the sensor or the lens at that resolution.

Indeed - the problem is that I don't really have the lenses to do a true like for like comparison.

I tested the S1R with my TS-E24mm mk2 lens, which is pretty good. I was hoping to try the new TS-E50 or 90 both of which are stunningly good even wide open, but Canon couldn't loan me any in time.

Based on what I have tried, the ~187MP mode needs a good support, and outdoors, a still day. I've not been all over the shots I tried but there were no obvious patches of moire. It's quite possible that my TS-E24 (and DOF limits) worked at reducing that with a touch of softness

As I discovered when moving from the 1Ds mk3 to the 5Ds a few years ago (21MP to 50MP) - a rising tide floats all boats. So even my 1962 Tamron twin-tele 135mm (M42 mount) looks better on the 5Ds than the 1Ds3. There isn't really a 'running out', just diminishing returns depending on all kinds of factors.

To really answer these questions requires some exceedingly good glass and a bit more time than I've had available (it all goes back tomorrow)

Also at anything more than say f/4 the image will startto show softening from diffraction (I leave exact calculations as an exercise for those whose should get out more )

In real world photos I'd likely take with the 24mm (architecture) such a wide aperture is likely a bit too narrow a DOF, and also since I'm likely using some shift, I'll want perhaps f/8-11 to allow for using outer parts of the image circle.

With the new Laowa macro lens a bit of softening starts being noticeable on my 5Ds (or the S1R in normal mode) at f/5.6.

When the Laowa 100 is officially launched I've a review that includes detailed test images at a number of apertures (although since it's at 2x macro, they are just the nominal set apertures)

I'll have something written up for the S1R in a few weeks or so (I'm working away a bit over the next few weeks) - I'll mention here when it's done, but DPR really don't like me mentioning URLs unless they are in direct response to other people's questions (fair enough - this isn't a complaint BTW)

Any idea whether reflections caused by lens-sensor interactions will be a problem with single-coated vintage lenses on the S1/S1R? (I have some Super-Takumars that would probably be a pleasure to use in manual focus with the high-resolution EVF of these full-frame Lumix cameras).

And any idea how such late-60s vintage optics, used at optimum aperture, might fare optically in the 187MP pixel-shift mode on the S1R? (Yes, I agree that "diminishing returns" applies, just wondering whether it'd be worth it from a resolution-benefit standpoint. (There could of course still be reduced-moire benefits -- though perhaps not, as such old optics with lower resolution might themselves be acting as a low-pass filter, reducing moire tendencies)).

Keith Cooper
OP Keith Cooper Senior Member • Posts: 2,565
Re: SR1 high res macro

ZilverHaylide wrote:

Any idea whether reflections caused by lens-sensor interactions will be a problem with single-coated vintage lenses on the S1/S1R? (I have some Super-Takumars that would probably be a pleasure to use in manual focus with the high-resolution EVF of these full-frame Lumix cameras).

And any idea how such late-60s vintage optics, used at optimum aperture, might fare optically in the 187MP pixel-shift mode on the S1R? (Yes, I agree that "diminishing returns" applies, just wondering whether it'd be worth it from a resolution-benefit standpoint. (There could of course still be reduced-moire benefits -- though perhaps not, as such old optics with lower resolution might themselves be acting as a low-pass filter, reducing moire tendencies)).

Haven't tried with the hi-res mode, but this (albeit coated) Zuiko 50/1.2 shows no problems (OM->EF and EF->L adapters)

I should perhaps observe that the 187MP mode has enough 'limitations' that for most applications I suspect the 'basic' 47MP will suffice.  The 187MP is something that you have to have reason to use (although fun to experiment with) Then again I'm looking from the POV of a working photographer supplying stuff for clients - many of whom wouldn't know what to make of such huge files

Definitely one for those who believe in the 'slowing down to improve your photography' mantra(I've always seen that as a marketing ploy by tripod makers, but that's another thread... )

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Keith Cooper

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ZilverHaylide Contributing Member • Posts: 668
Re: SR1 high res macro

Keith Cooper wrote:

ZilverHaylide wrote:

Any idea whether reflections caused by lens-sensor interactions will be a problem with single-coated vintage lenses on the S1/S1R? (I have some Super-Takumars that would probably be a pleasure to use in manual focus with the high-resolution EVF of these full-frame Lumix cameras).

And any idea how such late-60s vintage optics, used at optimum aperture, might fare optically in the 187MP pixel-shift mode on the S1R? (Yes, I agree that "diminishing returns" applies, just wondering whether it'd be worth it from a resolution-benefit standpoint. (There could of course still be reduced-moire benefits -- though perhaps not, as such old optics with lower resolution might themselves be acting as a low-pass filter, reducing moire tendencies)).

Haven't tried with the hi-res mode, but this (albeit coated) Zuiko 50/1.2 shows no problems (OM->EF and EF->L adapters)

I should perhaps observe that the 187MP mode has enough 'limitations' that for most applications I suspect the 'basic' 47MP will suffice. The 187MP is something that you have to have reason to use (although fun to experiment with) Then again I'm looking from the POV of a working photographer supplying stuff for clients - many of whom wouldn't know what to make of such huge files

Definitely one for those who believe in the 'slowing down to improve your photography' mantra (I've always seen that as a marketing ploy by tripod makers, but that's another thread... )

Seeing that old Zuiko on the S1R, I'm thinking "If only Panasonic, Sigma, or Olympus would make some modern primes that are relatively-small, affordable, with modern coatings, for the L-mount."

ClosePhoto Regular Member • Posts: 137
Re: SR1 high res macro
1

Unfortunately, the inexplicable 1 second exposure limit is going to prevent using the feature with a lot of super-macro,  micro, and astro photography. Pentax doesn't have this limit with their high res mode, I don't know why Panasonic does.

GeraldDXB Regular Member • Posts: 170
Re: SR1 high res macro

ClosePhoto wrote:

Unfortunately, the inexplicable 1 second exposure limit is going to prevent using the feature with a lot of super-macro, micro, and astro photography. Pentax doesn't have this limit with their high res mode, I don't know why Panasonic does.

Putting astro to one side, how does the 1 second exposure limit prevent using high resolution mode for a lot of macro and micro photography?

Isn’t it just a matter of adding more light? I was a bit stuck for a while when I realized I couldn’t use my Profoto strobes with hi-res, but some cheap Fiilex LED’s fixed that problem for me.

I would be interested to learn what it is you’re shooting (and how) that requires greater than 1 second exposure.

Kind regards,

Gerald.

ClosePhoto Regular Member • Posts: 137
Re: SR1 high res macro

GeraldDXB wrote:

ClosePhoto wrote:

Unfortunately, the inexplicable 1 second exposure limit is going to prevent using the feature with a lot of super-macro, micro, and astro photography. Pentax doesn't have this limit with their high res mode, I don't know why Panasonic does.

Putting astro to one side, how does the 1 second exposure limit prevent using high resolution mode for a lot of macro and micro photography?

Isn’t it just a matter of adding more light? I was a bit stuck for a while when I realized I couldn’t use my Profoto strobes with hi-res, but some cheap Fiilex LED’s fixed that problem for me.

I would be interested to learn what it is you’re shooting (and how) that requires greater than 1 second exposure.

Kind regards,

Gerald.

You hit the nail on the head. The problem is lighting in situations where capturing depth is desired. Firstly, the effective aperture at high magnifications can approach f/100 at magnifications as low as 5X with conventional lenses. Even a high quality infinity corrected microscope objective can be around f/50 at 20x. Now you have to manage high intensity lighting, often with a working distance of a few mm. And with image stacking to overcome miniscule DOF, the lighting often has the move with the lens. On top of that, many subjects with complex surfaces require side lighting as well, which may not even be possible without the lens casting shadows, so those areas have to be recovered, but low ISO shots slow down exposure even more.

Imagine trying to get an image of a tiny gem or mineral, or small machine part with mildly reflective surfaces. Even if you could manage intense enough lighting, from all the angles necessary to achieve a 1 second exposure time, reflected light blows out part of the image.

Using appropriate lighting, with ISO 64, often results in 2.5 to 6 second exposure times for many of my images. In some extreme cases, when fluorescent, UV, or IR techniques are involved, 20-30 second exposures are needed.

I suspect the 1 second limit is arbitrary, under the assumption camera shake over longer period, even with a tripod, is impossible to avoid. As I said, Pentax doesn't have this restriction on it's admittedly inferior implementation of high-res. Hopefully a firmware update will remove the 1 second limit.

James Stirling
James Stirling Senior Member • Posts: 8,042
Re: SR1 high res macro

Keith Cooper wrote:

Tom Caldwell wrote:

James Stirling wrote:

Keith Cooper wrote:

A few more experiments with the SR1 and a new 100/2.8 macro lens and high res mode have convinced me that it's potentially superb...

The 'potentially' refers to the really small DOF you have to work with when using any macro lens wide open. This will limit many, by requiring stacking to get any significant DOF, whilst the lack of motion controller support and more importantly no flash firing when making super-res shots, will just up the difficulty a bit more

I'm not into the bugs/plants/fungi staples of the macro photography world, so you'll have to wait in that area (I'm sure using that 187MP will be taken as a challenge by some ) but here's a super res shot of an old 8255a PIO chip, with a full res crop.

The 16 bit .psd file of this image is ~1.12GB BTW

This was shot using mode 1

Mode 2 allows for a bit of movement, so is better for real world photos

That is some serious detail Keith , not sure I would want to see the more common and more gruesome macro bug shots at this kind of detail I hoped to see some more high res form the S1 as well I did post a thread but never got a lot of replies

It seems that this product (S1/S1R) might be becoming a game-changer product that is only going to be limited by the ideas on what it can be used for.

The -only- limitation (or annoyance really) I've come across in the couple of weeks I've had the camera and lenses is dust. I'm really thinking that having the sensor 'open' when changing lenses is not such a good idea. The sensor picked up (and retained) more tiny specks (visible at f/16) in a couple of weeks than my 5Ds has since 2015

I note that the EOS RP keeps the sensor visible, whilst the EOS R closes the shutter - based on experience of late I'd like the shutter closed when not in use.

Keith I found the same with my Sony bodies at first. To ameliorate this ,change lenses in a dust free environment , body facing down , and I give the sensor a quick shot with my rocket blower. This has reduced my sensor cleaning markedly, as a macro guy shooting with the lens stopped down you are in the worst position to see the dust bunnies

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ClosePhoto Regular Member • Posts: 137
Re: SR1 high res macro

Perhaps closing shutter upon lens change could be implemented in a firmware change. Usually power off with the switch is “soft” to allow time for final writes to the memory card, so closing shutter should be possible.

Does Panasonic offer firmware for download, or does it require a visit to a service center?

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