So, the E-M5 III is coming at end of summer....

NCV wrote:

The EM5 fiasco

What's that? You said in another post that the EM5 was great. The EM5ii was sensational being first with sensor shift hi res outside Hassy. So you mean the iii? But it's not out yet so how do you know it's a fiasco?

jwills1213 wrote:

Just a guess, but perhaps they spent the majority of their R&D resources on the E-M1X.
To me, it's a bit unfortunate that the E-M1X, a camera which is their flagship and sort of serves as a demonstrator of their best technologies (the fruits of all that R&D) doesn't appear to have any appreciable improvement to the sensor. Not sure if there were any gains to be had here, maybe going to BSI ?

Well, the main thrust with E-M1X was in the features/ergonomics/software department. And there's nothing missing there. There's nothing like it on the market right now.

As for the sensor, seeing how there's still no sensor as fast as the one in E-M1 II and E-M1X, I'm not really sure there was anything to chase there. I mean, would you be happy if they used a new BSI sensor with 1/3 stop better DxO numbers (best case), but no handheld High Res, slower tripod High Res (PEN-F level), worse AF, noticeable EVF lag, slower EVF refresh, crippled ProCapture mode, worse rolling shutter and so on? Would that make any sense?

If they didn't use a sensor that's as fast as the one in E-M1 II, they would not have been able to make a camera with all the E-M1 II features and then some.

It's actually E-M5 Mark III where there's an opportunity to use a new sensor. Because nobody expects it to be an action shooting camera. So a gimped ProCapture mode, slower burst rates and slower EVF refresh with a bit more lag will be fine by most. In exchange, they could use a higher resolution EVF panel, for example.

With camera sales on the decline, I can understand why they would want to put out a camera with high profit margins like the E-M1X. Presumably to help recoup the R&D cost, pieces of the E-M1X tech will be rolled into products lower in the line up so they can get a leg up in their respective segments.

I think the R&D on AI subject recognition probably had great value for Olympus. This kind of technology has great potential in medical imaging uses and that's actually where Olympus has most of its eggs. It's probably one of those few cases where the technology developed for the camera can have a huge impact on their medical products and can actually bring in a lot of money in the long run. At least if they did it right.

I would guess that the E-M5.3 is going to have the updated sensor either from the PEN-F or the E-M1.2 (probably without the PDAF as that appears to be the niche of the M1 line),

PDAF or not, in 2019 Olympus simply cannot release a camera whose AF performs worse than E-M1 Mark II. It's not an option. And since Olympus CDAF is not as good as Panasonic's, I would expect they will have to rely on PDAF crutch.

the improved IBIS, maybe hand held high-res, and maybe limited implementation of the AI tracking from the E-M1X.

Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see if Olympus can do the AI stuff on something lesser than two TruPic VIII processors. If not, then I think they are in trouble. Panasonic and Sony managed to implement it without a need for an extra processor and additional heatsinks inside the camera body.

Alas, for E-M5 III, I would expect they could drop trains, planes and cars in favor of people/faces.

Maybe an upgraded EVF?

That's an easy upgrade.

I would expect the price to be about $1300.

Me too.

It's possible that longer term, the company strategy is to invest in software-based improvements to IQ to get around the sensor size limitation.

Rightly so. Handheld High Res mode already brings image quality to FF level, much like its tripod variant, but with less limitations. They really should implement raw HDR in a similar manner. They clearly have the tech.

The AI assisted focusing in the E-M1X could be the first step.

How about AI assisted bokeh?

LarsPolarBear wrote: So, the E-M5 III (most likely) is coming at end of summer.... However, I am asking myself more and more if it is really worth waiting? The best we can expect is that Olympus finally puts the 20MP PDAF sensor from the E-M1 II & E-M1X into the M5 III with some additional gimmicks, but nothing earth shattering on the DR front or spectacular AF like the new Sony a6400... ...and that is the best case scenario, considering that Oly's marketing team seems totally out of touch with reality, they might even go for the interior of the PEN F with lousy AF and slow operations... If history is any guidance they will price it above the a6400 and the Fuji X-T30... and then tell everybody that there is no market below the PRO level...

I'm happy for see any new Mid-Range M43 camera. I think M43 has been on the wrong path: chasing Bigger, Bulky & Expensive PRO camera body that is antithesis to Micro43 being small & beautiful.

It is nice to see more m43 Mid-Ranger making a come-back in 2019.  But I agree that $899 Fuji XT-30 and $899 Sony A6400 are quickly becoming a problem; these are incredibly ultra-competitive camera that offer amazing video with stunning Continuous Video tracking.  EM5-III will have its work cut out to beat them.

Had Olympus release EM5-III earlier in 2018 without the 2019 fuji XT-30 & Sony A6400, it would have been an absolute killer.  But now, it will be difficult as competition is very intense for mid-ranger.

Astrotripper wrote:

jwills1213 wrote:

Just a guess, but perhaps they spent the majority of their R&D resources on the E-M1X.
To me, it's a bit unfortunate that the E-M1X, a camera which is their flagship and sort of serves as a demonstrator of their best technologies (the fruits of all that R&D) doesn't appear to have any appreciable improvement to the sensor. Not sure if there were any gains to be had here, maybe going to BSI ?

Well, the main thrust with E-M1X was in the features/ergonomics/software department. And there's nothing missing there. There's nothing like it on the market right now.

As for the sensor, seeing how there's still no sensor as fast as the one in E-M1 II and E-M1X, I'm not really sure there was anything to chase there. I mean, would you be happy if they used a new BSI sensor with 1/3 stop better DxO numbers (best case), but no handheld High Res, slower tripod High Res (PEN-F level), worse AF, noticeable EVF lag, slower EVF refresh, crippled ProCapture mode, worse rolling shutter and so on? Would that make any sense?

If they didn't use a sensor that's as fast as the one in E-M1 II, they would not have been able to make a camera with all the E-M1 II features and then some.

It's actually E-M5 Mark III where there's an opportunity to use a new sensor. Because nobody expects it to be an action shooting camera. So a gimped ProCapture mode, slower burst rates and slower EVF refresh with a bit more lag will be fine by most. In exchange, they could use a higher resolution EVF panel, for example.

With camera sales on the decline, I can understand why they would want to put out a camera with high profit margins like the E-M1X. Presumably to help recoup the R&D cost, pieces of the E-M1X tech will be rolled into products lower in the line up so they can get a leg up in their respective segments.

I think the R&D on AI subject recognition probably had great value for Olympus. This kind of technology has great potential in medical imaging uses and that's actually where Olympus has most of its eggs. It's probably one of those few cases where the technology developed for the camera can have a huge impact on their medical products and can actually bring in a lot of money in the long run. At least if they did it right.

I would guess that the E-M5.3 is going to have the updated sensor either from the PEN-F or the E-M1.2 (probably without the PDAF as that appears to be the niche of the M1 line),

PDAF or not, in 2019 Olympus simply cannot release a camera whose AF performs worse than E-M1 Mark II. It's not an option. And since Olympus CDAF is not as good as Panasonic's, I would expect they will have to rely on PDAF crutch.

the improved IBIS, maybe hand held high-res, and maybe limited implementation of the AI tracking from the E-M1X.

Yeah, it's going to be interesting to see if Olympus can do the AI stuff on something lesser than two TruPic VIII processors. If not, then I think they are in trouble. Panasonic and Sony managed to implement it without a need for an extra processor and additional heatsinks inside the camera body.

Alas, for E-M5 III, I would expect they could drop trains, planes and cars in favor of people/faces.

Maybe an upgraded EVF?

That's an easy upgrade.

I would expect the price to be about $1300.

Me too.

It's possible that longer term, the company strategy is to invest in software-based improvements to IQ to get around the sensor size limitation.

Rightly so. Handheld High Res mode already brings image quality to FF level, much like its tripod variant, but with less limitations. They really should implement raw HDR in a similar manner. They clearly have the tech.

The AI assisted focusing in the E-M1X could be the first step.

How about AI assisted bokeh?

I really hope they implement some capable raw HDR type shots.

One thing I wish m4/3 had more of is DR. With IBIS that can shoot handheld ~1 sec shots, I can't see why they can't implement effective handheld HDR shots with much higher DR. This might allow m43 to compete and beat apsc in DR, and possibly in low light capabilities too depending on what kind of computational tricks are implemented.

If cell phones can do multi-shot HDR (albeit with more computational resources), no reason m43 with capable ibis can't do something like two shot burst/merge in camera and produce a highly tweakable raw file. That's twice the light, and should come ahead of apsc in terms of light gathering.

LarsPolarBear wrote:

So, the E-M5 III (most likely) is coming at end of summer according to 43rumors.com (https://www.43rumors.com/), but is it really worth the wait...

Like many forum members, I have been waiting for an upgraded/updated E-M5 III for some time, specially since the E-PL9 and E-M10 III have been dumbed down.

However, I am asking myself more and more if it is really worth waiting? The best we can expect is that Olympus finally puts the 20MP PDAF sensor from the E-M1 II & E-M1X into the M5 III with some additional gimmicks, but nothing earth shattering on the DR front or spectacular AF like the new Sony a6400... ...and that is the best case scenario, considering that Oly's marketing team seems totally out of touch with reality, they might even go for the interior of the PEN F with lousy AF and slow operations... If history is any guidance they will price it above the a6400 and the Fuji X-T30... and then tell everybody that there is no market below the PRO level...

Well, anyway... thought you might want to know that our wait will be over in 4-5 months...

Lars

For me, the E-M5 II is the reason why I am still on MFT. If at the end of summer I will still  use MFT, then I will buy it almost for sure. But if I won't be satisfied with the specifications (I don't have high exceptions, if they put the E-M1 II sensor and the stabilisation stays like it is now I am already happy) and/or the design is not good then I leave the system, but I am sure this won't happen because I am not a PRO, size is very important for me, and I am sure Olympus will release a nice good looking camera like it always did in the past.

NCV wrote:

Thorgrem wrote:

NCV wrote:

TN Args wrote:

NCV wrote:

The EM5 fiasco reminds me of Nikon's D300 fiasco where a top selling camera line was not kept up to date.

With a D300 that was falling apart through heavy use, I was tempted over to M43 when Olympus brought out the then revolutionary EM5.

It seems Olympus have badly lost the way with the steady flow of bloatware products at the expense of compact items that make more sense to most users.

If I want big cameras and fast lenses that just fight the DoF advantage of FF, I might as well just buy a Z6/7 or a Sony and be done with it. Those mirror less FF cameras are surprisingly lightweight and compact.

At least the bigger sensor will give me some IQ advantages.

I love M43 for its compact size and low weight, which make it a winner for hiking and travel. Surly the most common usage of cameras.

I see that camera sales are plummeting. I see a lot of heavy discounting; the Panasonic S1 is being offered with a €600 discount already where I live. The bloated EM1X is being heavily discounted too I believe in North America.

The EM5III needs to be something special.

It won't be. So go.

If it is not we can just watch as M43 slowly dies a slow death. Olympus is already at much less than 10 of the ILC market.

It seemed once they were going to take this market by storm with a revolutionary format. Just look back to what the pundits like Johnstone were saying back around 2014.

And yet another drama queen. Just leave the system behind if it's not of your liking. No reason to get sentimental or dramatically. The system and it's users will just move on without you.

Just reporting on what seems to be happening. No drama.

Up yours.

Oh waouh Very classy response.:-(

The point is I am always surprised how much the doomsayers want to be shouting and making predictions.. which usually do not happen

Harold

NCV wrote:

It has got much more difficult to get people to upgrade.

The pictures from my old EM5 I still delight, so Olympus really need to do something special to get me to upgrade.

They need to do something special to attract new users. The EM1X I think is being bought by existing users mainly.

The Canon RP, the Nikon Z6 are very compelling cameras. They are slowly falling in price with the discounting that is going on.

M43 is caught between a rock and a hard place. They cannot compete in the same price regions as FF. Most people would rather just spend their money on FF. But at the same time the low end of the camera market is dying fast. And on top of that I'd say most M43 users are either happy with their equipment or looking at other formats. So the light at the end of the tunnel might be an oncoming train

sportyaccordy wrote:

NCV wrote:

It has got much more difficult to get people to upgrade.

The pictures from my old EM5 I still delight, so Olympus really need to do something special to get me to upgrade.

They need to do something special to attract new users. The EM1X I think is being bought by existing users mainly.

The Canon RP, the Nikon Z6 are very compelling cameras. They are slowly falling in price with the discounting that is going on.

M43 is caught between a rock and a hard place. They cannot compete in the same price regions as FF. Most people would rather just spend their money on FF. But at the same time the low end of the camera market is dying fast. And on top of that I'd say most M43 users are either happy with their equipment or looking at other formats. So the light at the end of the tunnel might be an oncoming train

As usual, and totally predictably, you can be relied upon to trash a system you don't own ...

sportyaccordy wrote:

NCV wrote:

It has got much more difficult to get people to upgrade.

The pictures from my old EM5 I still delight, so Olympus really need to do something special to get me to upgrade.

They need to do something special to attract new users. The EM1X I think is being bought by existing users mainly.

The Canon RP, the Nikon Z6 are very compelling cameras. They are slowly falling in price with the discounting that is going on.

M43 is caught between a rock and a hard place.

No, not really. A meaningless metaphor here

They cannot compete in the same price regions as FF.

but lots of m4/3 users do not need or expect to compete with 35mm sensors at least not on all fronts

Most people would rather just spend their money on FF. But at the same time the low end of the camera market is dying fast. And on top of that I'd say most M43 users are either happy with their equipment or looking at other formats. So the light at the end of the tunnel might be an oncoming train

another meaningless metaphor

Harold

JaKing wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

NCV wrote:

It has got much more difficult to get people to upgrade.

The pictures from my old EM5 I still delight, so Olympus really need to do something special to get me to upgrade.

They need to do something special to attract new users. The EM1X I think is being bought by existing users mainly.

The Canon RP, the Nikon Z6 are very compelling cameras. They are slowly falling in price with the discounting that is going on.

M43 is caught between a rock and a hard place. They cannot compete in the same price regions as FF. Most people would rather just spend their money on FF. But at the same time the low end of the camera market is dying fast. And on top of that I'd say most M43 users are either happy with their equipment or looking at other formats. So the light at the end of the tunnel might be an oncoming train

As usual, and totally predictably, you can be relied upon to trash a system you don't own ...

How did I trash the system? There are a lot of happy M43 shooters, and it's a great system for certain people. But business wise its future prospects are bleak. There is little incentive for its happy users to upgrade and there's not much interest from outside now that there are larger format MILC options. That's not an indictment of the system... just a statement of where the market is

sportyaccordy wrote:

JaKing wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

NCV wrote:

It has got much more difficult to get people to upgrade.

The pictures from my old EM5 I still delight, so Olympus really need to do something special to get me to upgrade.

They need to do something special to attract new users. The EM1X I think is being bought by existing users mainly.

The Canon RP, the Nikon Z6 are very compelling cameras. They are slowly falling in price with the discounting that is going on.

M43 is caught between a rock and a hard place. They cannot compete in the same price regions as FF. Most people would rather just spend their money on FF. But at the same time the low end of the camera market is dying fast. And on top of that I'd say most M43 users are either happy with their equipment or looking at other formats. So the light at the end of the tunnel might be an oncoming train

As usual, and totally predictably, you can be relied upon to trash a system you don't own ...

How did I trash the system?

Bolded above, just for starters. Does the phrase "Damning with feint praise" mean anything to you?

There are a lot of happy M43 shooters, and it's a great system for certain people.

Here you go again ...

But business wise its future prospects are bleak.

This is based on your enormous experience in big business and accountancy, I suppose ...

I have very considerable experience in both, and would not be comfortable making such a sweeping and baseless statement ... However, in the long run, we are all dead. I should be so lucky as to make the long run ...

There is little incentive for its happy users to upgrade

You are speaking for all users, I assume. What do you (or I) know of what is in another's mind, let alone to be able to speak for a whole lot of others with such confidence ...

and there's not much interest from outside now that there are larger format MILC options.

Ditto. You are talking the system down in every sentence. Now, it may well be that all formats are doomed by the relentless march of the idiot sticks and their smartphones, but I do not think that either your crystal ball or mine is quite so prescient ...

That's not an indictment of the system... just a statement of where the market is

From your vast knowledge and experience as mentioned above ...

Sorry, but you, and some like you, are like flies on a not yet dead corpse ...

sportyaccordy wrote:

JaKing wrote:

sportyaccordy wrote:

NCV wrote:

It has got much more difficult to get people to upgrade.

The pictures from my old EM5 I still delight, so Olympus really need to do something special to get me to upgrade.

They need to do something special to attract new users. The EM1X I think is being bought by existing users mainly.

The Canon RP, the Nikon Z6 are very compelling cameras. They are slowly falling in price with the discounting that is going on.

M43 is caught between a rock and a hard place. They cannot compete in the same price regions as FF. Most people would rather just spend their money on FF. But at the same time the low end of the camera market is dying fast. And on top of that I'd say most M43 users are either happy with their equipment or looking at other formats. So the light at the end of the tunnel might be an oncoming train

As usual, and totally predictably, you can be relied upon to trash a system you don't own ...

How did I trash the system? There are a lot of happy M43 shooters, and it's a great system for certain people. But business wise its future prospects are bleak. There is little incentive for its happy users to upgrade and there's not much interest from outside now that there are larger format MILC options. That's not an indictment of the system... just a statement of where the market is

I agree that your statement was not a trashing of the M43 system.

From what I read, however, Olympus cameras command less than 5% of the global camera market, so is already a pretty insignificant player. Add to that, that the Imaging Division financially accounts for less than 8% of the overall Olympus corporate picture, and one gets a picture of a camera brand that is not ever destined to be a “mass market leader”, nor perhaps does Olympus care for it to be. Olympus has already heralded their camera strategy to target the “high margin, specialty “ market segment. No mention of Best Buy or Costco shoppers in that statement.

So...… Olympus doesn't have to be, and has obviously has chosen not to be, competitive in the larger mass market arena. If a buyer is fearful of not being a mainstream camera company shooter this is not the choice for them.

For me personally, I have never had a moments angst at not being a mass market buyer, and Olympus fits my shooting style and produces images that are currently way better than (the oft touted but in my opinion, outdated) “good enough”. I am looking forward to whatever “high margin/speciality “ goodies they have planned for the E-M5 III.