Need some Topaz DeNoise AI help

Started 2 months ago | Discussions
brucet
brucet Veteran Member • Posts: 3,291
Need some Topaz DeNoise AI help

OK I've hit a bump in the road with AI.

I convert my Nikon D7100 nef's into 16bit tiffs in NX-D. Then use those tiffs in Photomatix. 3 shot brackets. Have used the same work flow for years.

So along comes AI. I take those tiffs and run them through AI using the default settings. My tiffs go from 136 meg to 164meg AI tiffs. Results in AI are good if some what a slow process.

Now I load the 3 shot bracket into Photomatix. I get a very very poor result from Photomatix. AI is doing something to the tiffs. (I've tried various other combinations and always the AI tiffs fail in Photomatix).

So can some please run a 3 shot bracket of AI tiffs through Photomatix and see if they also get problems.

regards

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 brucet's gear list:brucet's gear list
Nikon D7100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-105mm F3.5-5.6G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm F1.8G Tokina AT-X Pro 12-24mm f/4 DX II Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G
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Toermalijn
Toermalijn Forum Pro • Posts: 15,822
Re: Need some Topaz DeNoise AI help

brucet wrote:

OK I've hit a bump in the road with AI.

I convert my Nikon D7100 nef's into 16bit tiffs in NX-D. Then use those tiffs in Photomatix. 3 shot brackets. Have used the same work flow for years.

So along comes AI. I take those tiffs and run them through AI using the default settings. My tiffs go from 136 meg to 164meg AI tiffs. Results in AI are good if some what a slow process.

Now I load the 3 shot bracket into Photomatix. I get a very very poor result from Photomatix. AI is doing something to the tiffs. (I've tried various other combinations and always the AI tiffs fail in Photomatix).

So can some please run a 3 shot bracket of AI tiffs through Photomatix and see if they also get problems.

regards

Have you tried the 1.02 update? it might solve some problems.

Ocotillo Regular Member • Posts: 106
Re: Need some Topaz DeNoise AI help

Topaz said to run the RAW images thru DeNoise AI before doing anything else. Don't know if that will help but it may.

poppyjk
poppyjk Contributing Member • Posts: 660
Re: Need some Topaz DeNoise AI help
3

Here is a guess.

AI DeNoise also sharpens as advertised.

The AI algorithms for sharpening actually substitute pixels where they have been trained in order to 'simulate' sharpening.  Sometimes it works and sometimes it is just not even close.

With a bracket of three photos the AI program gets three separate opportunities to interpret how to replace pixels to 'simulate' sharpening.  It is may be unlikely that all three attempts would make the exact same pixel substitutions.

And therefore, I'm guessing that Photomatix just doesn't know what to do to reconcile different shaped AI created 'sharpening' objects in the same place in the three photos.

I believe regular USM sharpening or specific lens sharpening only attempts to refine the contrast and resolution of edges in the photo.  Photomatix has been created to take slight variations in this type of sharpening into account.

Or this guess is totally bogus and some real technical expert can address the problem.

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brucet
OP brucet Veteran Member • Posts: 3,291
Re: Need some Topaz DeNoise AI help
2

Ocotillo wrote:

Topaz said to run the RAW images thru DeNoise AI before doing anything else. Don't know if that will help but it may.

IMHO running raw through AI is a pointless exercise. Raw files need 'tweaking' for things like white balance etc. So how can AI address those corrections?

regards

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 brucet's gear list:brucet's gear list
Nikon D7100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-105mm F3.5-5.6G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm F1.8G Tokina AT-X Pro 12-24mm f/4 DX II Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G
Ocotillo Regular Member • Posts: 106
Re: Need some Topaz DeNoise AI help

You run the RAW images thru 1st then you do all the other work. If I have a noisy image why would I do all my updating then run De Noise. I'd clear up the image 1st then do my normal adjustments. But I guess we all do things in a different way. Personally I like to start with a clean image then go from there. Why enhance the problems then try to clear it up.

brucet
OP brucet Veteran Member • Posts: 3,291
Re: Need some Topaz DeNoise AI help

Ocotillo wrote:

You run the RAW images thru 1st then you do all the other work. If I have a noisy image why would I do all my updating then run De Noise. I'd clear up the image 1st then do my normal adjustments. But I guess we all do things in a different way. Personally I like to start with a clean image then go from there. Why enhance the problems then try to clear it up.

It depends! It's often the case that noise only becomes an issue after certain editing. In that case it can be addressed later. For my work chasing noise is often a waste of time and never becomes an issue anyway.

regards

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I thought I made a mistake once. But I was wrong!
https://500px.com/brucetreloar
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 brucet's gear list:brucet's gear list
Nikon D7100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-105mm F3.5-5.6G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm F1.8G Tokina AT-X Pro 12-24mm f/4 DX II Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G
Lan Senior Member • Posts: 1,033
Re: Need some Topaz DeNoise AI help

poppyjk wrote:

Here is a guess.

AI DeNoise also sharpens as advertised.

The AI algorithms for sharpening actually substitute pixels where they have been trained in order to 'simulate' sharpening. Sometimes it works and sometimes it is just not even close.

With a bracket of three photos the AI program gets three separate opportunities to interpret how to replace pixels to 'simulate' sharpening. It is may be unlikely that all three attempts would make the exact same pixel substitutions.

And therefore, I'm guessing that Photomatix just doesn't know what to do to reconcile different shaped AI created 'sharpening' objects in the same place in the three photos.

I believe regular USM sharpening or specific lens sharpening only attempts to refine the contrast and resolution of edges in the photo. Photomatix has been created to take slight variations in this type of sharpening into account.

Or this guess is totally bogus and some real technical expert can address the problem.

I think you've hit the nail on the head Poppy.

Not sure I can see a way to use AI DeNoise in this scenario - presumably the noise is a problem for Photomatix anyway, so running AI DeNoise at the end stage wouldn't help.

I think you need to go back to your previous workflow Bruce.

My personal choice would be to run the Raw files through DxO as the first stage. Should avoid the problems you're experiencing, and possibly yield a better overall result.

brucet
OP brucet Veteran Member • Posts: 3,291
Re: Need some Topaz DeNoise AI help

Lan wrote:

poppyjk wrote:

Here is a guess.

AI DeNoise also sharpens as advertised.

The AI algorithms for sharpening actually substitute pixels where they have been trained in order to 'simulate' sharpening. Sometimes it works and sometimes it is just not even close.

With a bracket of three photos the AI program gets three separate opportunities to interpret how to replace pixels to 'simulate' sharpening. It is may be unlikely that all three attempts would make the exact same pixel substitutions.

And therefore, I'm guessing that Photomatix just doesn't know what to do to reconcile different shaped AI created 'sharpening' objects in the same place in the three photos.

I believe regular USM sharpening or specific lens sharpening only attempts to refine the contrast and resolution of edges in the photo. Photomatix has been created to take slight variations in this type of sharpening into account.

Or this guess is totally bogus and some real technical expert can address the problem.

I think you've hit the nail on the head Poppy.

Not sure I can see a way to use AI DeNoise in this scenario - presumably the noise is a problem for Photomatix anyway, so running AI DeNoise at the end stage wouldn't help.

I think you need to go back to your previous workflow Bruce.

My personal choice would be to run the Raw files through DxO as the first stage. Should avoid the problems you're experiencing, and possibly yield a better overall result.

Based on time alone using DeNoise AI is an issue. I think for one off single files AI is a good tool to have. But for HDR/Tonemapping through Photomatix it's to hit and miss. I've tried several brackets. Some were a complete failure while others weren't so bad. The results from Photomatix were very flat images. On some images some sections were flat. It's as though there isn't a consistent process.

Until AI matures I think I'll stick my old work flow.

regards

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I thought I made a mistake once. But I was wrong!
https://500px.com/brucetreloar
https://www.brucetreloar.blogspot.com.au

 brucet's gear list:brucet's gear list
Nikon D7100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-105mm F3.5-5.6G ED VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm F1.8G Tokina AT-X Pro 12-24mm f/4 DX II Nikon AF-S Nikkor 50mm f/1.8G
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