The Missing Program Mode

Started 7 months ago | Discussions
TacticDesigns
OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,218
Re: The Missing Program Mode

tbcass wrote:

There are a number of cameras that offer auto ISO in manual mode that will give you a consistent resulting brightness.

+1

Thanks for the post. Good to hear from you.

But . . . no . . . auto-ISO does not work for the specific scenario I am shooting.

I am shooting indoor sports / cheer competitions.

Here is the shot that will fool the AE system to under expose the shot.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tacticdesigns/7196369006/in/album-72157631300869284/

See the spot lights behind the athletes.

At this particular event those lights are off most of the time.

But right at the end of the performance they start flashing in a seemingly random fashion.

This particular shot was shot on the 2nd day of a 2-day competition.

The 1st day I actually shot aperture priority. And my camera under exposed the shots right at the end of their routine because of those spot lights.

The 2nd day, I knew if I shot manual exposure (which I was able to do because I had a constant aperture f/2.8 zoom lens) the camera would not be fooled into underexposing the shot because I was choosing the exposure values myself.

That's the thing though.

Since the athletes are lit by flood lights that is providing consistent frontal lighting . . . there is no need to let the camera guess at the exposure. I just set the exposure settings during the routine of an earlier run. Once I have it set, I can shoot those settings for the routines all day.

So, because I can looking around and figure out what is happening with the lighting, I have a better idea than the camera (which can only look forwards) of how to get the shot.

This "Missing Program Mode" would just let me do this same manual exposure method with a variable aperture lens.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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TacticDesigns
OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,218
Re: The Missing Program Mode

Fresch wrote:

+1

Thanks for the post.

How about one knob for shutter speed, held open to max speed in infinite steps.

What does max speed mean?

same for ISO

Max ISO? Or do you mean just a dial?

same for lens opening.

What would the aperture be set to?

Then you could just twist each knob to get the exposure you like, f2.36 s231.24 ISO 123.54

+1

of course the camera is in manual, but still has the camera controlled options for the automated functions only infinite steps.

What do you mean by camera controlled options for the automated functions?

Do you mean auto exposure?

That is potentially one thing I want to avoid.

I know the brightness of my subject (cheer athletes on a stage lit by flood lights.)

- f/4 (to get more athletes in focus)
- 1/500 sec shutter speed to try to freeze the motion of the athletes as they jump up into the air.
- ISO 6400 to get fairly bright JPGs straight out of camera.

No need for metering the light. I already know what I am going to shoot at.

Yes. There are slight difference per venues and who is running the competition, but its usually within 1/3 - 2/3 of a stop difference. Only one of the competitions we go to is actually 1-stop less light than the settings above.

One specific use I see for this system is to change the ISO to maintain the same end brightness of the image as the aperture value changes as I zoom in / out with a variable aperture lens.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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TacticDesigns
OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,218
Re: The Missing Program Mode

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

Wheatfield7 wrote:

My Pentax has user configurable shooting modes.

Problem solved for me.

+1

I wish that would solve it for me.

But it doesn't look like there is a camera out there that operates the way I am looking for it to operate.

I asked if anyone knew of a camera with this post . . .

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60834696

Take care & Happy Shooting!

I can get my Pentax cameras to work that way. They do not have user programmable program modes, but they have selectable program lines for different scenarios, FI one program line is called MTF in which the camera prioritize sharpest apertures.

By using program mode with progran shift together with below setting the shutter speed will be kept fast and the program shift basically only control aperture.

Use "sports" program line for the camera to prioritize fast shutter speed independent of focal length.

Use auto iso and set auto iso parameter to "normal" or "fast" for auto iso to switch to higher iso on faster shutter speeds.

Not sure if all brand can be set up this way, but Nikon has the minimum shutter speed setting for auto iso that probably can be used for this.

But the main problem with this is the metering, as you want a metering that meters a small portion of the scene. So you need to either use spot metering off the faces or use face detection that only meters off the detected faces.

+1

Thanks for the post.

I am a Pentaxian, but I am very skeptical that what I am asking for can be achieved with the current programming of the Pentax dSLR cameras.

I want to pick exposure manually.

f/4, 1/500, ISO 6400

I can achieve this easily with my f/2.8 zoom lenses as the lens is able to keep f/4 throughout the entire zoom range.

But I can't do this in manual exposure mode with my Nikon 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 zoom lens because as I zoom out on my superzoom lens, the aperture drops to f/5.6.

What I want the camera to do is something pretty simple.

As the aperture closes down to f/5.6, I want the camera to increase the ISO value so that although less light is coming in because of the smaller ratio of the aperture, I end up with a JPG that is the same brightness because the camera is increasing ISO to brighten up the picture to the same level.

What would the exact set-up of the Pentax dSLR be to achieve this without using any auto exposure mode.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 6,680
Re: The Missing Program Mode

TacticDesigns wrote:

Wheatfield7 wrote:

My Pentax has user configurable shooting modes.

Problem solved for me.

+1

I wish that would solve it for me.

But it doesn't look like there is a camera out there that operates the way I am looking for it to operate.

I asked if anyone knew of a camera with this post . . .

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60834696

Take care & Happy Shooting!

You need to distill your thoughts to a few sentences.

(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 6,680
Re: The Missing Program Mode

TacticDesigns wrote:

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

Wheatfield7 wrote:

My Pentax has user configurable shooting modes.

Problem solved for me.

+1

I wish that would solve it for me.

But it doesn't look like there is a camera out there that operates the way I am looking for it to operate.

I asked if anyone knew of a camera with this post . . .

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60834696

Take care & Happy Shooting!

I can get my Pentax cameras to work that way. They do not have user programmable program modes, but they have selectable program lines for different scenarios, FI one program line is called MTF in which the camera prioritize sharpest apertures.

By using program mode with progran shift together with below setting the shutter speed will be kept fast and the program shift basically only control aperture.

Use "sports" program line for the camera to prioritize fast shutter speed independent of focal length.

Use auto iso and set auto iso parameter to "normal" or "fast" for auto iso to switch to higher iso on faster shutter speeds.

Not sure if all brand can be set up this way, but Nikon has the minimum shutter speed setting for auto iso that probably can be used for this.

But the main problem with this is the metering, as you want a metering that meters a small portion of the scene. So you need to either use spot metering off the faces or use face detection that only meters off the detected faces.

+1

Thanks for the post.

I am a Pentaxian, but I am very skeptical that what I am asking for can be achieved with the current programming of the Pentax dSLR cameras.

I want to pick exposure manually.

f/4, 1/500, ISO 6400

I can achieve this easily with my f/2.8 zoom lenses as the lens is able to keep f/4 throughout the entire zoom range.

But I can't do this in manual exposure mode with my Nikon 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 zoom lens because as I zoom out on my superzoom lens, the aperture drops to f/5.6.

What I want the camera to do is something pretty simple.

As the aperture closes down to f/5.6, I want the camera to increase the ISO value so that although less light is coming in because of the smaller ratio of the aperture, I end up with a JPG that is the same brightness because the camera is increasing ISO to brighten up the picture to the same level.

What would the exact set-up of the Pentax dSLR be to achieve this without using any auto exposure mode.

TaV mode. Lock the aperture and shutter speed and let the ISO float. Your desire is not possible without giving the camera some level of control. You are saying you want auto exposure without auto exposure.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

TacticDesigns
OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,218
Re: The Missing Program Mode

Wheatfield7 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

Wheatfield7 wrote:

My Pentax has user configurable shooting modes.

Problem solved for me.

+1

I wish that would solve it for me.

But it doesn't look like there is a camera out there that operates the way I am looking for it to operate.

I asked if anyone knew of a camera with this post . . .

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60834696

Take care & Happy Shooting!

You need to distill your thoughts to a few sentences.

My idea does not fit within a few sentences. LOL.

Ok. Two different ideas. Potentially 1 solution.

Idea 1) Shooting manual exposure with a variable aperture lens.

I currently shoot my daughters at cheer competitions with a constant f/2.8 zoom lens. (Actually two. I bring two cameras and have a telephoto on one camera and a wide angle lens on another.)

But every so often, the 28-75mm f/2.8 on my cropped sensor is not wide enough, so I put on my back-up lens . . . my Nikon 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 zoom lens on the cropped sensor to try to get a wide angle shot of the whole team.

Here's the issue.

With f/2.8 constant aperture zooms, I can set exposure manually ( f/4, 1/500, ISO 6400) at the beginning of the competition and then shoot all the teams with those same settings.

But . . . when I need to toss on my variable aperture lens, I have to change the manual exposure settings to work with f/3.5 at the wide end of the superzoom.

But . . . as I zoom with the superzoom, the aperture narrows and lets in less light so as I zoom in, since I have the settings in manual exposure mode, the pictures get darker and darker as I zoom in.

I don't want to use an auto exposure mode, because there are often spot lights behind the athletes that will trick the camera to underexpose the shot.

All I want is when I zoom in with a variable aperture lens and the aperture gets smaller, that the camera increase ISO so that I end up with a JPG with the same brightness.

This means I would be able to shoot sports with manual exposure mode and a variable aperture lens.

Idea 2) Why only solve that problem when a programmable interface may be able to solve multiple things.

So. Instead of solving my specific wish. If there were a programming method to change how your camera operated, then a bunch of wishes might be able to be solved.

Like having shutter speed increase as you zoom out.

Those are the two basic ideas.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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TacticDesigns
OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,218
Re: The Missing Program Mode

Wheatfield7 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

Wheatfield7 wrote:

My Pentax has user configurable shooting modes.

Problem solved for me.

+1

I wish that would solve it for me.

But it doesn't look like there is a camera out there that operates the way I am looking for it to operate.

I asked if anyone knew of a camera with this post . . .

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60834696

Take care & Happy Shooting!

I can get my Pentax cameras to work that way. They do not have user programmable program modes, but they have selectable program lines for different scenarios, FI one program line is called MTF in which the camera prioritize sharpest apertures.

By using program mode with progran shift together with below setting the shutter speed will be kept fast and the program shift basically only control aperture.

Use "sports" program line for the camera to prioritize fast shutter speed independent of focal length.

Use auto iso and set auto iso parameter to "normal" or "fast" for auto iso to switch to higher iso on faster shutter speeds.

Not sure if all brand can be set up this way, but Nikon has the minimum shutter speed setting for auto iso that probably can be used for this.

But the main problem with this is the metering, as you want a metering that meters a small portion of the scene. So you need to either use spot metering off the faces or use face detection that only meters off the detected faces.

+1

Thanks for the post.

I am a Pentaxian, but I am very skeptical that what I am asking for can be achieved with the current programming of the Pentax dSLR cameras.

I want to pick exposure manually.

f/4, 1/500, ISO 6400

I can achieve this easily with my f/2.8 zoom lenses as the lens is able to keep f/4 throughout the entire zoom range.

But I can't do this in manual exposure mode with my Nikon 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 zoom lens because as I zoom out on my superzoom lens, the aperture drops to f/5.6.

What I want the camera to do is something pretty simple.

As the aperture closes down to f/5.6, I want the camera to increase the ISO value so that although less light is coming in because of the smaller ratio of the aperture, I end up with a JPG that is the same brightness because the camera is increasing ISO to brighten up the picture to the same level.

What would the exact set-up of the Pentax dSLR be to achieve this without using any auto exposure mode.

TaV mode. Lock the aperture and shutter speed and let the ISO float. Your desire is not possible without giving the camera some level of control.

Exactly.

What I am suggesting is that if we could program our cameras to work differently, then we could make this possible.

What I described in the OP was a method to make this possible.

You are saying you want auto exposure without auto exposure.

+1

Exactly.

Let's say I have my camera set to manual exposure.

But I toss on a variable aperture lens.

Everytime I zoomed, I'd have to change to see if my aperture setting changed.

If it did, and I wanted the end JPG to end up with the same brightness as my other pictures at a different aperture setting, then I'd have to manually go in and change my ISO value.

Ok. Here's the catcher.

I want to do this as I am shooting a cheer competition routine.

The routine lasts about 2 minutes.

I am trying to capture shots of as many of the (up to) 20 athletes performing on stage.

I usually walk away with 70-100 shots per 2 minute performance.

I physically don't have time to change ISO settings as I am zooming in and out.

I want the camera to do that for me.

Manual exposure mode.

But ISO changes as the aperture changes on my variable aperture lens as I zoom in and out.

Side note: Yes. I shoot f/2.8 zooms for this now. But . . . every so often I need to use my superzoom on my cropped sensor body to get a wider angle of view to get a shot of the entire team when they are spread out across the stage. But more so . . . down the road when I am shooting my grandkids . . . cameras are at the point now that shooting (some) indoor sports can be done pretty well with a standard kit lens or a superzoom. The only thing missing is this slight bit of automation.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 6,680
Re: The Missing Program Mode

TacticDesigns wrote:

Wheatfield7 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

Wheatfield7 wrote:

My Pentax has user configurable shooting modes.

Problem solved for me.

+1

I wish that would solve it for me.

But it doesn't look like there is a camera out there that operates the way I am looking for it to operate.

I asked if anyone knew of a camera with this post . . .

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60834696

Take care & Happy Shooting!

I can get my Pentax cameras to work that way. They do not have user programmable program modes, but they have selectable program lines for different scenarios, FI one program line is called MTF in which the camera prioritize sharpest apertures.

By using program mode with progran shift together with below setting the shutter speed will be kept fast and the program shift basically only control aperture.

Use "sports" program line for the camera to prioritize fast shutter speed independent of focal length.

Use auto iso and set auto iso parameter to "normal" or "fast" for auto iso to switch to higher iso on faster shutter speeds.

Not sure if all brand can be set up this way, but Nikon has the minimum shutter speed setting for auto iso that probably can be used for this.

But the main problem with this is the metering, as you want a metering that meters a small portion of the scene. So you need to either use spot metering off the faces or use face detection that only meters off the detected faces.

+1

Thanks for the post.

I am a Pentaxian, but I am very skeptical that what I am asking for can be achieved with the current programming of the Pentax dSLR cameras.

I want to pick exposure manually.

f/4, 1/500, ISO 6400

I can achieve this easily with my f/2.8 zoom lenses as the lens is able to keep f/4 throughout the entire zoom range.

But I can't do this in manual exposure mode with my Nikon 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 zoom lens because as I zoom out on my superzoom lens, the aperture drops to f/5.6.

What I want the camera to do is something pretty simple.

As the aperture closes down to f/5.6, I want the camera to increase the ISO value so that although less light is coming in because of the smaller ratio of the aperture, I end up with a JPG that is the same brightness because the camera is increasing ISO to brighten up the picture to the same level.

What would the exact set-up of the Pentax dSLR be to achieve this without using any auto exposure mode.

TaV mode. Lock the aperture and shutter speed and let the ISO float. Your desire is not possible without giving the camera some level of control.

Exactly.

What I am suggesting is that if we could program our cameras to work differently, then we could make this possible.

What I described in the OP was a method to make this possible.

You are saying you want auto exposure without auto exposure.

+1

Exactly.

Let's say I have my camera set to manual exposure.

But I toss on a variable aperture lens.

Everytime I zoomed, I'd have to change to see if my aperture setting changed.

If it did, and I wanted the end JPG to end up with the same brightness as my other pictures at a different aperture setting, then I'd have to manually go in and change my ISO value.

Ok. Here's the catcher.

I want to do this as I am shooting a cheer competition routine.

The routine lasts about 2 minutes.

I am trying to capture shots of as many of the (up to) 20 athletes performing on stage.

I usually walk away with 70-100 shots per 2 minute performance.

I physically don't have time to change ISO settings as I am zooming in and out.

I want the camera to do that for me.

Tav mode does exactly what you are asking for. I don’t know if any other manufacturer does it, but it’s a mode on the Pentax control dial.

Perhaps you should RTFM.

Manual exposure mode.

But ISO changes as the aperture changes on my variable aperture lens as I zoom in and out.

Side note: Yes. I shoot f/2.8 zooms for this now. But . . . every so often I need to use my superzoom on my cropped sensor body to get a wider angle of view to get a shot of the entire team when they are spread out across the stage. But more so . . . down the road when I am shooting my grandkids . . . cameras are at the point now that shooting (some) indoor sports can be done pretty well with a standard kit lens or a superzoom. The only thing missing is this slight bit of automation.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

Take care & Happy Shooting!

TacticDesigns
OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,218
Re: The Missing Program Mode

Wheatfield7 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

Wheatfield7 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

Wheatfield7 wrote:

My Pentax has user configurable shooting modes.

Problem solved for me.

+1

I wish that would solve it for me.

But it doesn't look like there is a camera out there that operates the way I am looking for it to operate.

I asked if anyone knew of a camera with this post . . .

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60834696

Take care & Happy Shooting!

I can get my Pentax cameras to work that way. They do not have user programmable program modes, but they have selectable program lines for different scenarios, FI one program line is called MTF in which the camera prioritize sharpest apertures.

By using program mode with progran shift together with below setting the shutter speed will be kept fast and the program shift basically only control aperture.

Use "sports" program line for the camera to prioritize fast shutter speed independent of focal length.

Use auto iso and set auto iso parameter to "normal" or "fast" for auto iso to switch to higher iso on faster shutter speeds.

Not sure if all brand can be set up this way, but Nikon has the minimum shutter speed setting for auto iso that probably can be used for this.

But the main problem with this is the metering, as you want a metering that meters a small portion of the scene. So you need to either use spot metering off the faces or use face detection that only meters off the detected faces.

+1

Thanks for the post.

I am a Pentaxian, but I am very skeptical that what I am asking for can be achieved with the current programming of the Pentax dSLR cameras.

I want to pick exposure manually.

f/4, 1/500, ISO 6400

I can achieve this easily with my f/2.8 zoom lenses as the lens is able to keep f/4 throughout the entire zoom range.

But I can't do this in manual exposure mode with my Nikon 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 zoom lens because as I zoom out on my superzoom lens, the aperture drops to f/5.6.

What I want the camera to do is something pretty simple.

As the aperture closes down to f/5.6, I want the camera to increase the ISO value so that although less light is coming in because of the smaller ratio of the aperture, I end up with a JPG that is the same brightness because the camera is increasing ISO to brighten up the picture to the same level.

What would the exact set-up of the Pentax dSLR be to achieve this without using any auto exposure mode.

TaV mode. Lock the aperture and shutter speed and let the ISO float. Your desire is not possible without giving the camera some level of control.

Exactly.

What I am suggesting is that if we could program our cameras to work differently, then we could make this possible.

What I described in the OP was a method to make this possible.

You are saying you want auto exposure without auto exposure.

+1

Exactly.

Let's say I have my camera set to manual exposure.

But I toss on a variable aperture lens.

Everytime I zoomed, I'd have to change to see if my aperture setting changed.

If it did, and I wanted the end JPG to end up with the same brightness as my other pictures at a different aperture setting, then I'd have to manually go in and change my ISO value.

Ok. Here's the catcher.

I want to do this as I am shooting a cheer competition routine.

The routine lasts about 2 minutes.

I am trying to capture shots of as many of the (up to) 20 athletes performing on stage.

I usually walk away with 70-100 shots per 2 minute performance.

I physically don't have time to change ISO settings as I am zooming in and out.

I want the camera to do that for me.

Tav mode does exactly what you are asking for. I don’t know if any other manufacturer does it, but it’s a mode on the Pentax control dial.

Perhaps you should RTFM.

Nope.

Tav mode on Pentax does not do it.

Here's a link to the Pentax K-1 manual . . .

http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/english/support/man-pdf/k-1.pdf

On page 44 it outlines what TAV is . . .

"TAv Shutter & Aperture Priority Automatic Exposure".

Take note what it says under "Change Sensitivity"

Footnote says . . . "*3 Fixed to [ISO AUTO]."

So . . . auto-ISO.

I don't want auto-ISO.

I don't want the camera metering.

I want to dial in the exposure (brightness) myself so that there is no meter reading happening so that the camera doesn't underexpose backlit pictures like this scenario . . .

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tacticdesigns/7196369006/in/album-72157631300869284/

All I want is that when the aperture changes (because I am using a variable aperture lens), that the ISO changes so that the end brightness of the JPG picture remains consistent across the set of pictures I take.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

Manual exposure mode.

But ISO changes as the aperture changes on my variable aperture lens as I zoom in and out.

Side note: Yes. I shoot f/2.8 zooms for this now. But . . . every so often I need to use my superzoom on my cropped sensor body to get a wider angle of view to get a shot of the entire team when they are spread out across the stage. But more so . . . down the road when I am shooting my grandkids . . . cameras are at the point now that shooting (some) indoor sports can be done pretty well with a standard kit lens or a superzoom. The only thing missing is this slight bit of automation.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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Fogel70
Fogel70 Senior Member • Posts: 1,302
Re: The Missing Program Mode

TacticDesigns wrote:

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

Wheatfield7 wrote:

My Pentax has user configurable shooting modes.

Problem solved for me.

+1

I wish that would solve it for me.

But it doesn't look like there is a camera out there that operates the way I am looking for it to operate.

I asked if anyone knew of a camera with this post . . .

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60834696

Take care & Happy Shooting!

I can get my Pentax cameras to work that way. They do not have user programmable program modes, but they have selectable program lines for different scenarios, FI one program line is called MTF in which the camera prioritize sharpest apertures.

By using program mode with progran shift together with below setting the shutter speed will be kept fast and the program shift basically only control aperture.

Use "sports" program line for the camera to prioritize fast shutter speed independent of focal length.

Use auto iso and set auto iso parameter to "normal" or "fast" for auto iso to switch to higher iso on faster shutter speeds.

Not sure if all brand can be set up this way, but Nikon has the minimum shutter speed setting for auto iso that probably can be used for this.

But the main problem with this is the metering, as you want a metering that meters a small portion of the scene. So you need to either use spot metering off the faces or use face detection that only meters off the detected faces.

+1

Thanks for the post.

I am a Pentaxian, but I am very skeptical that what I am asking for can be achieved with the current programming of the Pentax dSLR cameras.

I want to pick exposure manually.

f/4, 1/500, ISO 6400

I can achieve this easily with my f/2.8 zoom lenses as the lens is able to keep f/4 throughout the entire zoom range.

But I can't do this in manual exposure mode with my Nikon 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 zoom lens because as I zoom out on my superzoom lens, the aperture drops to f/5.6.

What I want the camera to do is something pretty simple.

What you suggest could end up really complex and end up really difficult to handle.

If you instruct the camera to only use a limited set of exposure setting, what would happen if light change and those settings no longer work? It would end up really messy if you then have to re-program the settings every time light change. Or if you want increase DOF or other exposure parameters?

In your scenario it might be better to give more control to the photographer instead of more automation to the camera. FI using spot metering in manual mode and when aperture change you just adjust after what light meter says

On my Pentax cameras metering is connected to a button in manual mode. So it is only a button press to get the camera to adjust exposure setting.

As the aperture closes down to f/5.6, I want the camera to increase the ISO value so that although less light is coming in because of the smaller ratio of the aperture, I end up with a JPG that is the same brightness because the camera is increasing ISO to brighten up the picture to the same level.

What would the exact set-up of the Pentax dSLR be to achieve this without using any auto exposure mode.

If the camera automatically adjust exposure, you are in auto exposure mode. What you want is an auto exposure mode, but one that is disconnected from the metering in the camera.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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Tom_N Forum Pro • Posts: 16,067
Re: The Missing Program Mode

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

As the aperture closes down to f/5.6, I want the camera to increase the ISO value so that although less light is coming in because of the smaller ratio of the aperture, I end up with a JPG that is the same brightness because the camera is increasing ISO to brighten up the picture to the same level.

What would the exact set-up of the Pentax dSLR be to achieve this without using any auto exposure mode.

If the camera automatically adjust exposure, you are in auto exposure mode. What you want is an auto exposure mode, but one that is disconnected from the metering in the camera.

You've just described what the Auto Exposure Lock button does.  All that is missing is a simple mechanical lock ("click to hold; click again to release").

Fogel70
Fogel70 Senior Member • Posts: 1,302
Re: The Missing Program Mode

Tom_N wrote:

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

As the aperture closes down to f/5.6, I want the camera to increase the ISO value so that although less light is coming in because of the smaller ratio of the aperture, I end up with a JPG that is the same brightness because the camera is increasing ISO to brighten up the picture to the same level.

What would the exact set-up of the Pentax dSLR be to achieve this without using any auto exposure mode.

If the camera automatically adjust exposure, you are in auto exposure mode. What you want is an auto exposure mode, but one that is disconnected from the metering in the camera.

You've just described what the Auto Exposure Lock button does. All that is missing is a simple mechanical lock ("click to hold; click again to release").

That is basically how metering in manual mode works on my Pentax cameras. You press the green button for the camera to adjust exposure after the metering, and the exposure will be locked until next press of the green button.

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TacticDesigns
OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,218
Simplified (No programming language) variation . . .

Ok.

I thought of a simplified variation.

A "Advanced Program Mode", which is still . . . "A Missing Program Mode".

It is not as powerful or versatile . . . but would, I think, let me get the mode I want.

So here is the system described.

1. Advanced Program Mode

The Advanced Program Mode lets you lock / unlock (with range), monitor and link different settings on your camera.

2. User Interface & Example

This system would be presented as a single screen.

This is an example of the key elements on that screen.

[Exposure Mode][Manual]
[Focal Length][17mm]
[Aperture][f/2.8][Link to ISO]*
[Shutter Speed][1/500][Lock]
[ISO][1/6400][Link to Aperture]*
[Meter][Disable]
[End Brightness][Lock]

So . . .

Exposure Mode = Manual (In this case. I could choose a different exposure mode.)

Focal Length is just showing me the current focal length of the lens. In this case I put a hypothetical Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8-4 lens on the camera.

Aperture is showing me the current aperture setting. I have the Sigma lens at 17mm and I manually set the aperture to f/2.8.

Shutter speed I manually set to 1/500sec to free the motion of the cheer athletes.

ISO I manually set to 1/6400 to get the end brightness that I want.

Meter - this is a bit shady as how this would work. But the basic idea is I don't want to use the light meter. So I disable it. It guess other options would be to lock it, like the Pentax system or pushing the AE-L button.

So, basically how this would work above is . . .

I am in manual exposure mode. I have zoomed out to 17mm and set my exposure based on that. So f/2.8 (let in lots of light) and 1/500 (fast shutter speed to freeze the motion of the cheer athletes.) and ISO 6400 to end up with a bright JPG picture.

But I have disabled the light meter, so nothing is on "auto". And I have locked the shutter speed, because I want that faster shutter speed to freeze motion.

This bit is also not so clear in my mind right now. But somehow I want to "lock" the end brightness of the image. So the camera will try to get be a combination of aperture, shutter speed and ISO that is equivalent even if I change (or one of the settings) change.

So in this case, as I zoom out on that Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8-4 variable aperture lens and the aperture drops to f/4, it tries to maintain the same end brightness. But since it can't change the ISO (because it is locked) it can only change the ISO to maintain the same end brightness.

* I have also added the Link To option here. This may be redundant. Or it may be a way to get a bit more control when introducing the light meter and "auto" back into the Advanced Program Mode.

So. Once you type in the values . . . you can save this as a user setting.

NOTE: If this program is running . . . you can still change your settings manually. If you are at 17mm focal length and decide to manually change your aperture setting to f/4, the camera will just crank up the ISO for you (in this particular example.) And even though the shutter speed is locked (in the program), you can manually change it. The lock only means the camera is not allowed to change it.

3. Link To -- ?

Ok. I don't know if Link To is redundant here or potentially a way to give more control.

If you lock one of the EV+ISO settings, and something changes, it may be obvious that it is the other setting that needs to change.

On the other hand, if you are introducing the light meter (auto) back into the system, then maybe linking 2 settings will give a sort of priority of what settings to use before handing the situation over to the camera to figure out the last variable.

Such as . . . changing shutter speed based on focal length.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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TacticDesigns
OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,218
Re: The Missing Program Mode

Fogel70 wrote:

Tom_N wrote:

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

As the aperture closes down to f/5.6, I want the camera to increase the ISO value so that although less light is coming in because of the smaller ratio of the aperture, I end up with a JPG that is the same brightness because the camera is increasing ISO to brighten up the picture to the same level.

What would the exact set-up of the Pentax dSLR be to achieve this without using any auto exposure mode.

If the camera automatically adjust exposure, you are in auto exposure mode. What you want is an auto exposure mode, but one that is disconnected from the metering in the camera.

You've just described what the Auto Exposure Lock button does. All that is missing is a simple mechanical lock ("click to hold; click again to release").

That is basically how metering in manual mode works on my Pentax cameras. You press the green button for the camera to adjust exposure after the metering, and the exposure will be locked until next press of the green button.

+1

I use that on my Pentax K100d or ist DS when I am using my old Pentax-M 50mm f/2 lens.

But there is no "green" button on my camera. Instead I use the AE-L button.

But this doesn't get around the need to have a subject in front of you with the proper brightness to get a lock on.

For shooting cheer that is a problem.

Sometimes the athletes run onto the stage in darkness. And they don't turn on the lights until right before the routine starts.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tacticdesigns/33575810891/in/album-72157631300869284/

So what that means is if I am doing this method, I am leaving setting my exposure settings to the last minute.

If the camera doesn't "choose" the settings I want, then I have to sit there trying to figure out how to "trick" the camera to get to the settings I want.

For a cheer routine, its only about 2 minutes long.

And I am trying to get pictures of as many athletes as possible for the yearbook.

So I chug through about 80-100 pictures per 2 minute routine.

The last thing I want to be doing is be fighting with the camera to get to the exposure settings I want, especially when I know what settings I want well before the routine starts.

And it would be nice to turn off the camera between routines.

There are up to about 8 teams from our club that compete at an event. So I am there all day. And there could be hours between runs. So I turn off my camera to save battery power.

Being able to set exposure manually and save it under a user setting means I set up my camera once in the morning and shoot those settings all day. And I don't have to wait for a scene to be the right LV in front of me to get a meter reading on. I am dialing in the settings manually so I don't need to wait for a properly lit scene.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,218
Re: The Missing Program Mode

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

Wheatfield7 wrote:

My Pentax has user configurable shooting modes.

Problem solved for me.

+1

I wish that would solve it for me.

But it doesn't look like there is a camera out there that operates the way I am looking for it to operate.

I asked if anyone knew of a camera with this post . . .

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60834696

Take care & Happy Shooting!

I can get my Pentax cameras to work that way. They do not have user programmable program modes, but they have selectable program lines for different scenarios, FI one program line is called MTF in which the camera prioritize sharpest apertures.

By using program mode with progran shift together with below setting the shutter speed will be kept fast and the program shift basically only control aperture.

Use "sports" program line for the camera to prioritize fast shutter speed independent of focal length.

Use auto iso and set auto iso parameter to "normal" or "fast" for auto iso to switch to higher iso on faster shutter speeds.

Not sure if all brand can be set up this way, but Nikon has the minimum shutter speed setting for auto iso that probably can be used for this.

But the main problem with this is the metering, as you want a metering that meters a small portion of the scene. So you need to either use spot metering off the faces or use face detection that only meters off the detected faces.

+1

Thanks for the post.

I am a Pentaxian, but I am very skeptical that what I am asking for can be achieved with the current programming of the Pentax dSLR cameras.

I want to pick exposure manually.

f/4, 1/500, ISO 6400

I can achieve this easily with my f/2.8 zoom lenses as the lens is able to keep f/4 throughout the entire zoom range.

But I can't do this in manual exposure mode with my Nikon 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 zoom lens because as I zoom out on my superzoom lens, the aperture drops to f/5.6.

What I want the camera to do is something pretty simple.

What you suggest could end up really complex and end up really difficult to handle.

+1

Yes. Very complex, potentially powerful.

I outlined a simplified variation . . .

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62493330

If you instruct the camera to only use a limited set of exposure setting, what would happen if light change and those settings no longer work?

We already have that option.

If I dial in a manual ISO and use shutter priority, but then walk from a bright area to a dark area . . . the camera may not be able to open up the aperture wide enough to get normalize exposure. This is when the warning symbol starts flashing.

But I actually had thought about this and left a way to address this in the design.

It is a sort of cascading failure method or . . . a sort of "switch case" solution.

I described it in this post here . . .

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62489330

Check out the program and the description.

If I define a set-up that ultimately fails . . . the camera then looks to see if there is a case that it can cascade to that it is able to set the EV+ISO settings to that will fall within the set parameters.

In the program I defined in the post above, there are 3 cases. When the first two settings fail, it falls back onto a generic setup.

It would end up really messy if you then have to re-program the settings every time light change. Or if you want increase DOF or other exposure parameters?

I actually thought about that.

If you can link a particular line to a dial or a fn-button+dial, then you can reprogram on the fly.

Like if I go to a gym or competition that is darker than my program is set to, it would be nice if I could just adjust the ISO range by spinning the rear e-dial.

In your scenario it might be better to give more control to the photographer instead of more automation to the camera. FI using spot metering in manual mode and when aperture change you just adjust after what light meter says

I guess two thoughts.

1. I thought up my system because I don't have time to manually change things. I am trying to get 80-200 shots into a 2 minute cheer routine. That is on average a picture every few seconds. I don't have time to change the ISO every time I change the focal length on my variable aperture lens.

2. The system I describe is not completely automated.

It can provide as much or as little "help" as you want.

If you add fewer conditions, you can leave the remaining settings as either manual or auto.

On my Pentax cameras metering is connected to a button in manual mode. So it is only a button press to get the camera to adjust exposure setting.

+1

I am a Pentaxian.

I use that when I use my old Pentax-M 50mm f/2 lens on my Pentax K100d or ist DS.

But, not green button. Pentax set that function to the AE-L button when you are in manual exposure mode on that camera.

I explained why this is not idea for shooting my scenario . . . 8 teams across a day . . . in my other reply to your other post . . .

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62493370

As the aperture closes down to f/5.6, I want the camera to increase the ISO value so that although less light is coming in because of the smaller ratio of the aperture, I end up with a JPG that is the same brightness because the camera is increasing ISO to brighten up the picture to the same level.

What would the exact set-up of the Pentax dSLR be to achieve this without using any auto exposure mode.

If the camera automatically adjust exposure, you are in auto exposure mode. What you want is an auto exposure mode, but one that is disconnected from the metering in the camera.

Yes and no.

For my particular scenario . . . it is manual exposure in that I manually pick the aperture / shutter speed and ISO myself. I do not rely on the meter built into the camera for that.

So there is no automation that is related to metering.

The only automation is that when my aperture changes, I want the camera to change my ISO value. If I wasn't trying to get 80-100 shots into a 2 minute cheer routine, I could probably do that manually. But my fingers are busy spinning my camera all over the place to follow up to 20 athletes running around the stage.

So . . .

1. I want to dial in the settings myself. I don't want to rely on having to take a meter reading. The reasons are mentioned in the other post linked above.

2. I want the ability for the camera to link the aperture to the ISO. Not just the shutter speed. The Pentax Hyper Manual mode, I believe, can only link aperture to shutter speed.

And this is just my scenario.

Yes. If a camera manufacturer wanted to solve only my specific wish, I would be happy with that.

But the programming (or simplified) solution could potentially solve more photographers wishes.

BTW . . . thanks for the post. I just posted this because it is a random thought I had. It is not fleshed out. LOL. But . . . with all the camera I gear I have around me, it is the one thing I really wish these cameras were capable of. LOL.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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Fogel70
Fogel70 Senior Member • Posts: 1,302
Re: The Missing Program Mode

TacticDesigns wrote:

Fogel70 wrote:

Tom_N wrote:

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

As the aperture closes down to f/5.6, I want the camera to increase the ISO value so that although less light is coming in because of the smaller ratio of the aperture, I end up with a JPG that is the same brightness because the camera is increasing ISO to brighten up the picture to the same level.

What would the exact set-up of the Pentax dSLR be to achieve this without using any auto exposure mode.

If the camera automatically adjust exposure, you are in auto exposure mode. What you want is an auto exposure mode, but one that is disconnected from the metering in the camera.

You've just described what the Auto Exposure Lock button does. All that is missing is a simple mechanical lock ("click to hold; click again to release").

That is basically how metering in manual mode works on my Pentax cameras. You press the green button for the camera to adjust exposure after the metering, and the exposure will be locked until next press of the green button.

+1

I use that on my Pentax K100d or ist DS when I am using my old Pentax-M 50mm f/2 lens.

But there is no "green" button on my camera. Instead I use the AE-L button.

But this doesn't get around the need to have a subject in front of you with the proper brightness to get a lock on.

For shooting cheer that is a problem.

Sometimes the athletes run onto the stage in darkness. And they don't turn on the lights until right before the routine starts.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tacticdesigns/33575810891/in/album-72157631300869284/

So what that means is if I am doing this method, I am leaving setting my exposure settings to the last minute.

If the camera doesn't "choose" the settings I want, then I have to sit there trying to figure out how to "trick" the camera to get to the settings I want.

For a cheer routine, its only about 2 minutes long.

And I am trying to get pictures of as many athletes as possible for the yearbook.

So I chug through about 80-100 pictures per 2 minute routine.

The last thing I want to be doing is be fighting with the camera to get to the exposure settings I want, especially when I know what settings I want well before the routine starts.

That is one of the points of using spot metering. If you meter a small well defined part of the scene that you know the brightness of, it is easy to know how to set up the camera long before the shooting start.

And it would be nice to turn off the camera between routines.

There are up to about 8 teams from our club that compete at an event. So I am there all day. And there could be hours between runs. So I turn off my camera to save battery power.

I belive most cameras remeber last used exposure settings in manual mode.

Being able to set exposure manually and save it under a user setting means I set up my camera once in the morning and shoot those settings all day. And I don't have to wait for a scene to be the right LV in front of me to get a meter reading on. I am dialing in the settings manually so I don't need to wait for a properly lit scene.

This will only work if you shoot in the same conditions every time. FI shooting at the same place day after day.

But it is not a method I would use as rarely shoot the same place at same conditions two times. And even if I did I would not trust that light would be xactly the same, so I would not set exposure without input from light meter.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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TacticDesigns
OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,218
Re: The Missing Program Mode

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

Fogel70 wrote:

Tom_N wrote:

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

As the aperture closes down to f/5.6, I want the camera to increase the ISO value so that although less light is coming in because of the smaller ratio of the aperture, I end up with a JPG that is the same brightness because the camera is increasing ISO to brighten up the picture to the same level.

What would the exact set-up of the Pentax dSLR be to achieve this without using any auto exposure mode.

If the camera automatically adjust exposure, you are in auto exposure mode. What you want is an auto exposure mode, but one that is disconnected from the metering in the camera.

You've just described what the Auto Exposure Lock button does. All that is missing is a simple mechanical lock ("click to hold; click again to release").

That is basically how metering in manual mode works on my Pentax cameras. You press the green button for the camera to adjust exposure after the metering, and the exposure will be locked until next press of the green button.

+1

I use that on my Pentax K100d or ist DS when I am using my old Pentax-M 50mm f/2 lens.

But there is no "green" button on my camera. Instead I use the AE-L button.

But this doesn't get around the need to have a subject in front of you with the proper brightness to get a lock on.

For shooting cheer that is a problem.

Sometimes the athletes run onto the stage in darkness. And they don't turn on the lights until right before the routine starts.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tacticdesigns/33575810891/in/album-72157631300869284/

So what that means is if I am doing this method, I am leaving setting my exposure settings to the last minute.

If the camera doesn't "choose" the settings I want, then I have to sit there trying to figure out how to "trick" the camera to get to the settings I want.

For a cheer routine, its only about 2 minutes long.

And I am trying to get pictures of as many athletes as possible for the yearbook.

So I chug through about 80-100 pictures per 2 minute routine.

The last thing I want to be doing is be fighting with the camera to get to the exposure settings I want, especially when I know what settings I want well before the routine starts.

That is one of the points of using spot metering. If you meter a small well defined part of the scene that you know the brightness of, it is easy to know how to set up the camera long before the shooting start.

But in my scenario, I know what settings I want (within 1/3 - 2/3 of a stop) before I even get to the cheer competition venue.

I don't take a meter reading at all before I set up the settings on my camera.

I set up the camera manually at home. Drive to the venue. Take a few test shots and then adjust 1/3 - 2/3 of a stop from there.

For me, that is more reliable and less frustrating then trying to find something in the scene that is 80% grey.

And it would be nice to turn off the camera between routines.

There are up to about 8 teams from our club that compete at an event. So I am there all day. And there could be hours between runs. So I turn off my camera to save battery power.

I belive most cameras remeber last used exposure settings in manual mode.

+1

Yes. Exactly.

I'm just mentioning this because some people would say, just use auto-exposure-lock.

But using AE-L won't work on many cameras because the metering system turns off after a while.

I know. I tried it with my cameras. I'd trick the camera to get the exposure I wanted. Hit the AE-L button and then waited to see how long it was before the meter system turned off.

So . . . if I used that, I'd have to constantly have my finger on the AE-L (Nikon camera doesn't toggle like the Pentax cameras) and keep tapping the shutter button to stop the camera from going to sleep.

And then . . . when I wanted to swap cameras mid-routine . . . what do I do? LOL.

And then when one team is done and there is a 3 hour wait 'til the next team, what do I do? LOL.

That is one of the benefits of shooting manual exposure in my scenario.

Being able to set exposure manually and save it under a user setting means I set up my camera once in the morning and shoot those settings all day. And I don't have to wait for a scene to be the right LV in front of me to get a meter reading on. I am dialing in the settings manually so I don't need to wait for a properly lit scene.

This will only work if you shoot in the same conditions every time. FI shooting at the same place day after day.

+1

Or . . . shooting indoor sports.

Shooting indoor sports in venues that do not have exterior windows (like old warehouses converted to gyms, convention centers or hockey arenas) the lighting stays the same from competition to competition.

I have been shooting gymnastics and cheer competitions since 2011 and the lighting has been within 1-stop across most of the venues for these past 8 years. LOL.

So . . . I have been shooting in the same conditions every time for the past 8 years. LOL.

But it is not a method I would use as rarely shoot the same place at same conditions two times. And even if I did I would not trust that light would be xactly the same, so I would not set exposure without input from light meter.

+1

I would not argue that.

That is your shooting scenario and the way you approach taking pictures.

What I am describing (and why I want this "The Missing Program Mode") is because of the shooting scenario I am in and how I want to approach taking pictures.

There is no need for the two to be the same.

There is no right or wrong.

Just wants and needs. And the wants and needs can be as individual as the person shooting.

Getting back to the OP . . . the purpose of this "The Missing Program Mode" is so that each photographer can configure their camera to operate more like how they "want or need" it to operate, regardless of how other people use their camera, and regardless of how the manufacturer is currently deciding how to program their cameras.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

P.S.

RE: Light Reading

1) For shooting indoor sports, my light reading is taking a shot at the settings I've chosen manually and just checking the histogram on the back. So I do do a meter reading. But because the flood lights on the athletes remains consistent, I only have to do that at the beginning of the competition. After that initial reading / test at the beginning of the competition, I don't really change my settings.

2) For shooting portraits with manual monolights, I take a light reading with my Gossen Variosix F flash light meter. But first I set the camera in manual exposure and get all the settings set up the way I want on the camera first. Then I set up the mono lights and change the settings on the lights (and testing with the flash meter) to match what I've already set up on the camera.

But thinking about this process . . . the reason this works is because my lenses are constant aperture lenses.

If I were shooting with variable aperture lenses and manual monolights, I'd be having to be changing EV+ISO settings as I changed focal length on the lens, just like the problem I would have changing focal length at a cheer competition.

So . . . "The Missing Program Mode" could totally come in handy if I were shooting manual mono lights with a variable aperture lens like a Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8-4 or a kit telephoto lens.

3) For paid portrait sessions I always have my Gossen Lunasix F light meter with me to take incident light meter readings which I find more reliable than using the in-camera light meter.

4) If not shooting the above, for the most part I use aperture priority. Most of the time with auto-ISO. But if I am concentrating on what I am doing, I'd switch to manual ISO.

5) And for vacation or family get togethers I will use P mode.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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Gerry Winterbourne Forum Pro • Posts: 16,073
Re: The Missing Program Mode

TacticDesigns wrote:

Ok. This is a bit off the wall . . . but a progression of an idea that I've had for a while . . .

I've read all though the thread (and some of the earlier ones you linked to). I think I can distil it down into something much simpler than you describe here and in some later posts. I think much of the reason your are getting suggestions that don't fit your bill stem from the fact that the way you are expressing your desire - in a very complicated way - is obscuring what it is you really want.

I think this says concisely what you want (I've clipped it to its essentials from a reply to Wheatfield):

I don't want the camera metering.

All I want is that when the aperture changes (because I am using a variable aperture lens), that the ISO changes so that the end brightness of the JPG picture remains consistent across the set of pictures I take.

As I understand it what you want is to set your exposure parameters manually - all of them - so you can pre-determine output brightness. And that works fine as long as the lens can give the f-stop you want. The only problem comes when a variable aperture lens changes f-stop.

I've emphasised "lens" because that's the crucial point: in all the exposure modes it's the camera that determines the settings (with your input for some parameters, but ultimately it's the camera that controls things).

So all (!) that is needed is a new routine that looks at the aperture set by the camera (which includes you) and the aperture set by the lens. If they differ the routine overrides one of the other two parameters by adjusting by the opposite amount of f-number change. By saying "one of the other" I've gone beyond what you say: all you ask for is an increase in ISO.

There's no need to consider anything else: it doesn't matter why the lens has stopped down (so FL is irrelevant) - all that matters is that it has stopped down and by how much. Say you are using a lens of f/2.8 to f/4. You set up f-stop at f/2.8 (short FL), ISO100 and whatever shutter speed you need. Then you zoom in and the lens stops down to f/4. All you need is

[(a) camera f-number?]

[(b) lens f-number?] [is (a) < (b)?]

[If yes, increase ISO by {(a)/(b)^2}].

Note that while it is the lens that sets the new f-number it's the camera that reads it, so we are comparing camera reading to camera setting.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Several people have pointed to the Pentax TAv mode but it fails your requirement because it is a metering mode and you don't want metering. Yes, it deals with the lens changing its f-number; but it only does that in reference to the way the camera is metering in the first place. And, yes, you can alter the output brightness for a given scene by using +/-EC; but that's no help if you change your scene and the background has a range of brightness.

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___________________________________________
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TacticDesigns
OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,218
Re: The Missing Program Mode

Gerry Winterbourne wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

Ok. This is a bit off the wall . . . but a progression of an idea that I've had for a while . . .

I've read all though the thread (and some of the earlier ones you linked to). I think I can distil it down into something much simpler than you describe here and in some later posts. I think much of the reason your are getting suggestions that don't fit your bill stem from the fact that the way you are expressing your desire - in a very complicated way - is obscuring what it is you really want.

+1

Gerry, thanks for the reply.

Reading through your post, I can see you completely understand what I want.

I think I obscure what I am saying because I am combining what I want with the "The Missing Program Mode" which is a more generic and programmable solution that can probably resolve other wants more so than my simple initial want. LOL.

I think this says concisely what you want (I've clipped it to its essentials from a reply to Wheatfield):

+1

I don't want the camera metering.

All I want is that when the aperture changes (because I am using a variable aperture lens), that the ISO changes so that the end brightness of the JPG picture remains consistent across the set of pictures I take.

As I understand it what you want is to set your exposure parameters manually - all of them - so you can pre-determine output brightness. And that works fine as long as the lens can give the f-stop you want. The only problem comes when a variable aperture lens changes f-stop.

+1. Yup. For my initial want.

I've emphasised "lens" because that's the crucial point: in all the exposure modes it's the camera that determines the settings (with your input for some parameters, but ultimately it's the camera that controls things).

So all (!) that is needed is a new routine that looks at the aperture set by the camera (which includes you) and the aperture set by the lens. If they differ the routine overrides one of the other two parameters by adjusting by the opposite amount of f-number change. By saying "one of the other" I've gone beyond what you say: all you ask for is an increase in ISO.

+1

There's no need to consider anything else: it doesn't matter why the lens has stopped down (so FL is irrelevant)

+1. For my specific application. Although it one potential caveat.*

- all that matters is that it has stopped down and by how much.

+1

Say you are using a lens of f/2.8 to f/4. You set up f-stop at f/2.8 (short FL), ISO100 and whatever shutter speed you need. Then you zoom in and the lens stops down to f/4. All you need is

[(a) camera f-number?]

[(b) lens f-number?] [is (a) < (b)?]

[If yes, increase ISO by {(a)/(b)^2}].

Note that while it is the lens that sets the new f-number it's the camera that reads it, so we are comparing camera reading to camera setting.

+1

That solution would work for me and my initial want.

I think I am obscuring this with trying to resolve potentially other problems as well.

For instance . . . what if you want the shutter speed to be set by the focal length to reduce handshake blur. So the "The Missing Program Mode" I describe can look at the focal length and set the shutter speed based on the focal length. And then fill in the settings for aperture and ISO as well. LOL.

Or . . . for instance, what if you decide at the wide end you want aperture to get set to f/4 to shoot group shots, but as you zoom out aperture goes to f/2.8 to isolate individual shots. This "might" actually make sense shooting a cheer routine with a single lens + camera. LOL. But this is opposite to how the lens naturally works when you zoom a variable aperture lens. If I shoot this with a constant aperture lens, the aperture stays the same throughout the range. What I am suggesting is . . . what if you could program the camera to change aperture to whatever you want? LOL.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Several people have pointed to the Pentax TAv mode but it fails your requirement because it is a metering mode and you don't want metering. Yes, it deals with the lens changing its f-number; but it only does that in reference to the way the camera is metering in the first place. And, yes, you can alter the output brightness for a given scene by using +/-EC; but that's no help if you change your scene and the background has a range of brightness.

+1

Yes.

I want metering off.

And I want to affect ISO when aperture changes. Not shutter speed. I want shutter speed fixed at 1/500 to freeze motion blur in the athletes.

Thanks for the post.

Yes. You know what I am looking for!

For my individual need, the solution could be a lot simpler than what I have outlined in the "The Missing Program Mode".

But will any manufacturer change their cameras for one scenario for one photographer?

But if a programming solution could resolve many photographers minute wants . . . maybe it would seem more worth while? LOL.

Take are & Happy Shooting!

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Gerry Winterbourne Forum Pro • Posts: 16,073
Re: The Missing Program Mode

TacticDesigns wrote:

Gerry Winterbourne wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

Ok. This is a bit off the wall . . . but a progression of an idea that I've had for a while . . .

I've read all though the thread (and some of the earlier ones you linked to). I think I can distil it down into something much simpler than you describe here and in some later posts. I think much of the reason your are getting suggestions that don't fit your bill stem from the fact that the way you are expressing your desire - in a very complicated way - is obscuring what it is you really want.

+1

Gerry, thanks for the reply.

Reading through your post, I can see you completely understand what I want.

I think I obscure what I am saying because I am combining what I want with the "The Missing Program Mode" which is a more generic and programmable solution that can probably resolve other wants more so than my simple initial want. LOL.

I think this says concisely what you want (I've clipped it to its essentials from a reply to Wheatfield):

+1

I don't want the camera metering.

All I want is that when the aperture changes (because I am using a variable aperture lens), that the ISO changes so that the end brightness of the JPG picture remains consistent across the set of pictures I take.

As I understand it what you want is to set your exposure parameters manually - all of them - so you can pre-determine output brightness. And that works fine as long as the lens can give the f-stop you want. The only problem comes when a variable aperture lens changes f-stop.

+1. Yup. For my initial want.

I've emphasised "lens" because that's the crucial point: in all the exposure modes it's the camera that determines the settings (with your input for some parameters, but ultimately it's the camera that controls things).

So all (!) that is needed is a new routine that looks at the aperture set by the camera (which includes you) and the aperture set by the lens. If they differ the routine overrides one of the other two parameters by adjusting by the opposite amount of f-number change. By saying "one of the other" I've gone beyond what you say: all you ask for is an increase in ISO.

+1

There's no need to consider anything else: it doesn't matter why the lens has stopped down (so FL is irrelevant)

+1. For my specific application. Although it one potential caveat.*

- all that matters is that it has stopped down and by how much.

+1

Say you are using a lens of f/2.8 to f/4. You set up f-stop at f/2.8 (short FL), ISO100 and whatever shutter speed you need. Then you zoom in and the lens stops down to f/4. All you need is

[(a) camera f-number?]

[(b) lens f-number?] [is (a) < (b)?]

[If yes, increase ISO by {(a)/(b)^2}].

Note that while it is the lens that sets the new f-number it's the camera that reads it, so we are comparing camera reading to camera setting.

+1

That solution would work for me and my initial want.

I think I am obscuring this with trying to resolve potentially other problems as well.

For instance . . . what if you want the shutter speed to be set by the focal length to reduce handshake blur. So the "The Missing Program Mode" I describe can look at the focal length and set the shutter speed based on the focal length. And then fill in the settings for aperture and ISO as well. LOL.

I'm not sure but I believe some cameras already do this. In the Pentax P mode there is an option to prioritise fast shutter speed, which isn't quite the same but goes part way.

Or . . . for instance, what if you decide at the wide end you want aperture to get set to f/4 to shoot group shots, but as you zoom out aperture goes to f/2.8 to isolate individual shots. This "might" actually make sense shooting a cheer routine with a single lens + camera. LOL.

I think this goes beyond what can reasonably be expected of any automatic system: it's expecting the camera to guess your aesthetic choices. Again, the Penta P mode has options for DOF control - deep or shallow. If you select the shallow option it will automatically open up if the lens allows it; as it happens, that would also give the widest available aperture - and hence fastest shutter speed - when zoomed in. But that is still only part of what you're asking.

But this is opposite to how the lens naturally works when you zoom a variable aperture lens. If I shoot this with a constant aperture lens, the aperture stays the same throughout the range. What I am suggesting is . . . what if you could program the camera to change aperture to whatever you want? LOL.

How does it guess what you want?

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Several people have pointed to the Pentax TAv mode but it fails your requirement because it is a metering mode and you don't want metering. Yes, it deals with the lens changing its f-number; but it only does that in reference to the way the camera is metering in the first place. And, yes, you can alter the output brightness for a given scene by using +/-EC; but that's no help if you change your scene and the background has a range of brightness.

+1

Yes.

I want metering off.

And I want to affect ISO when aperture changes. Not shutter speed. I want shutter speed fixed at 1/500 to freeze motion blur in the athletes.

Thanks for the post.

Yes. You know what I am looking for!

For my individual need, the solution could be a lot simpler than what I have outlined in the "The Missing Program Mode".

But will any manufacturer change their cameras for one scenario for one photographer?

No. But if one photographer expresses a general (but as yet not publicised) desire the makers might take note. Especially if the programming is simple.

But if a programming solution could resolve many photographers minute wants . . . maybe it would seem more worth while? LOL.

But there's the rub: the more potential needs it meets the more complex it gets; and the more the complexity the less chance of the makers bothering.

Take are & Happy Shooting!

-- hide signature --

Gerry
___________________________________________
First camera 1953, first Pentax 1985, first DSLR 2006
http://www.pbase.com/gerrywinterbourne
gerry.winterbourne@ntlworld.com

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