The Missing Program Mode

Started 6 months ago | Discussions
TacticDesigns
TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,204
The Missing Program Mode
1

Ok. This is a bit off the wall . . . but a progression of an idea that I've had for a while . . .

The Missing Program Mode

Ok. Reading through these forums for a while, every now and then someone will say, hey . . . I wish my camera would work "this way" in order to change my shutter speed or exposure settings.

If you think about it, the program modes we have on our cameras have been around for quite a while now.

But . . . at least for me, I find situations where I wish my camera would operate just a bit differently.

I asked if there was a camera that was able to adjust ISO based on your aperture here . . .

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60834696

And then, on Winlaf's thread asking for ideas for innovative ideas for camera bodies . . .

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62456506

. . . I noticed threwthelens asking for a more intelligent automation of exposure . . .

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62468175

Then it dawned on me.

Rather than come up with unique solutions for all the different ways photographers want to use their cameras, why not open up a way for the photographer to program their camera to operate the way they want.

No. This is not new.

The Minolta "i" series back in the day had the ability to have expansion cards. You could set up your camera, and then save the program to the card. Or you could buy a card that could save you the hassle of learning how to set up the camera yourself. Sort of like picture settings or user settings on cards. But . . . as pointed out on Wiki, what you were able to do with this system was just automated setting up your camera to work the way you want. So basically a user setting that is saved to an expansion card.

And I guess there is things like CHDK for the canon cameras. But to program that, you have to write up a script in Lua. Save that script to your memory card. And then run the program.

Not the most convenient of things to do.

So, what I thought up is a way for a user to sit with their camera in hand and write up quick little programs to change the way their camera worked as far as exposure is concerned.

Outline of how the Missing Program Mode would work

The goal of this system is to allow a photographer to create a quick program on their camera (using nothing but their camera) to change the way their camera works.

NOTE: Although there should be a way to program this on a computer and upload to your camera, or transfer it over via. cellphone.

The input of the program would be in a similar fashion as how the "My Menu" system works on Nikon cameras.

You can click to add a line. Click on the line to move it up and down. And modify the parameters of the line.

Ok. Here are what the lines look like.

[Line-001][Watch][Focal Length][18-135]
[Line-002][Link to][Aperture][Line-001][f/4-f/5.6]
[Line-003][Link to][ISO][Line-002][6400-12800]
[Line-004][Set to][Shutter Speed][1/500]

1. Each line has a unique line number.

2. Commands are . . .

Watch = to get the camera to watch / monitor this variable

Link to = to link this variable to another variable

Set to = to set this variable to a particular setting

So this is how my program works.

[Line-001][Watch][Focal Length][18-135] = This gets the exposure program to watch / monitor the value of the focal length variable.

[Line-002][Link to][Aperture][Line-001][f/4-f/5.6] = This links the aperture variable range to the focal length range. So when the focal length is 18, the exposure program sets the aperture to f/4. If the focal length changes to 135, then the exposure program sets the aperture to f/5.6. If the focal length changes a bit, the aperture value would change proportional to that change.

[Line-003][Link to][ISO][Line-002][6400-12800] = This links the ISO variable range to the aperture variable range. So when the aperture is at f/4, the exposure program sets the ISO to 6400. If the aperture value is f/5.6, the exposure program sets the ISO to 12800.

[Line-004][Set to][Shutter Speed][1/500] = Sets the shutter speed to 1/500. That's it.

Ok. So this program describes exactly how I wanted my camera to operate in this thread.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60834696

So. I have decided the exposure manually. I don't want to rely on auto-ISO because of potential of back lighting throwing off the cameras exposure system. And the camera changes the ISO value based on the changing aperture value, which is changed because I am using a variable aperture lens . . . my Nikon 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 superzoom lens.

As for "threwthelens"'s want to have the camera pick a faster shutter speed as you zoom out, the program for that could be . . .

[Line-001][Watch][Focal Length][18-135]
[Line-002][Link to][Shutter Speed][1/80-1/200]
[Line-003][Set to][Aperture][Auto][f/4-f/5.6]
[Line-004][Set to][ISO][Auto][200-1600]

So watch the focal length. Start my shutter speed at 1/80 sec at the wide end, but as I zoom, end up at 1/200 at the long end. Use auto aperture, but within the range f/4-f/5.6 and use auto-ISO in the range 200-1600.

If you allow the Missing Program Mode to watch other variables, like if the flash is set to fire off . . . then you can modify the exposure settings based on that as well. Like . . .

[Line-001][Watch][Flash on]
[Line-002][Set to][ISO][Manual][3200]
[Line-003][Set to][Aperture][Manual][f/5.6]

This is how I set up my flash for taking group shots at cheer competitions. High ISO so that I can pull in some of the background ambient light. At a smaller aperture to get more of the athletes in focus in the group shot.

As it stands now, I have that set up for my P or A mode. And then U1 and U2 are the settings I use to shoot the routine performance.

But . . . if I had it programmed in, then whenever I pop-up my flash, it would switch to this program when I am shooting flash.

The programs could be stored as XML. And they could allow storage of a program within a program. So you could have a program for "Cheer Competitions", which could have different programs within in. Such as a program to shoot individuals with your 70-200mm f/2.8 zoom, a program to shoot wide angle with a 28-75mm f/2.8 lens, or a program to shoot group shots of the team after the performance using flash. And then when you are done shooting cheer, you could switch to your "Vacation" program, which has things like . . . "Outdoor" or "Indoor" or "Fireworks" or "Campfire" or "Light writing", etc.

User Interface Ideas

As for the user interface, as mentioned above, it would work a bit like how "My Menu" menu works on a Nikon camera.

If you have a program that has multiple programs within it, it could be tabbed, so you could select the tab to select that program.

As for changing settings while shooting.

You could assign particular variables to the different dials and buttons on your camera.

So for instance . . . if I am shooting cheer at a brighter facility than last time, I could call up my cheer program, and shoot some test shots. If the shots are over exposed, I dial down the ISO with the rear e-dial, which I defined as linked to ISO. And then save / update that program.

Other Ideas

I guess, it would be interesting to consider what other variables could be available to take into consideration.

External light meter? How about if you can link an external light meter to your camera?

Either press the button on the light meter, or your camera automatically takes a reading from your external light meter. And then you can use that reading in your program?

Conclusion

Sorry for the long post.

But just playing around with the idea of how do we get these cameras to work how we want them to work.

But without having to have a lot of unique solutions all of the place.

With a system like this, we could either download or program ourselves how our cameras operate and really come up with a unique tool to let us go after the shots we want to go after.

LOL.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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quadrox Senior Member • Posts: 1,240
Re: The Missing Program Mode
3

I like it, but I don't think it's ever going to happen... Too complicated for anyone but the most advanced users.

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Tom Axford Veteran Member • Posts: 6,294
Simplicity should be the aim
4

I think anything that adds a lot more complexity to the camera is dead in the water,  most photographers want simplicity not complexity.

kelstertx Veteran Member • Posts: 4,986
Re: Simplicity should be the aim

Tom Axford wrote:

I think anything that adds a lot more complexity to the camera is dead in the water, most photographers want simplicity not complexity.

I think the need for this programmability will go away soon anyway. They already have cameras that change focus and tracking modes automatically based on what the camera sees (ie Firmware 5 for A9), so if it isn't already, I suspect shutter speeds will soon be chosen more intelligently based on distance, perceived movement speed, and other factors. Auto modes are going to get smarter and smarter now that Ai automation is becoming a feature that manufacturers are competing on.

-Kelly

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TacticDesigns
OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,204
Re: The Missing Program Mode

quadrox wrote:

I like it, but I don't think it's ever going to happen...

+1

Thanks for the reply.

I kinda suspect the same thing.

But . . . it solves a real problem I have.

Trying to shoot my daughters at competitons with a variable aperture lens.

But I think this could solve a lot of other problems as well.

Too complicated for anyone but the most advanced users.

I don't consider myself an advanced user.

I just know about ISO, aperture and shutter speed.

And I know that when I am shooting sports with a variable aperture lens and trying to shoot manual exposure . . . the fact that the aperture ratio changes as I zoom throws a wrench into getting the most out of my camera. LOL.

But for those that want to squeeze the most out of their hardware . . . this could be a way to do it.

And it doesn't involve any new technology (sensor enhancement or better lenses.) It's just fine tuning what is already there.

I guess the other way I look at it is, if there were a way to download these "apps" to your camera (via. your cellphone) and there is a way to fine tune the set-up of the program in-camera . . . like for my Cheer competition program, be able to change the end brightness (ISO range) because different venues will have different powered lights . . . then the shooter doesn't need to know what ISO, aperture or shutter speed is. Just download the program and play with the brightness until they get good looking pictures.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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TacticDesigns
OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,204
Six of one . . .

Tom Axford wrote:

I think anything that adds a lot more complexity to the camera is dead in the water, most photographers want simplicity not complexity.

+1

Thanks for the reply . . .

I guess I look at this 2 ways.

I look at my Nikon D750 (my latest dSLR camera) and compare it against my Pentax K100d (my first dSLR camera) and there are a lot more menu items on my D750 than there were on my K100d. LOL.

Complexity has been constantly added to these cameras over the years.

Heck. I started with a Pentax SV film camera that was completely manual. It did not even have a built-in light meter.

Over the years I went from that to a Pentax ME Super with aperture priority, then the Pentax Super Program with its shutter priority and full program. And then the Pentax K100d with is autofocus and digital sensor.

So, in a way . . . the cameras we have now are way more complex then in the beginning.

And I am sure not every feature on every camera is used by everyone.

So what is one more feature.

. . .

On the other hand, sometimes taking more control over your camera is the simpler way to get things done.

It's like when I shoot cheer.

I know that the light coming from the floodlights to light up the athletes are going to be fairly consistent. Especially if there is a videographer there.

But also that sometimes these events have spot lights behind the athletes that can trick the light meter of a camera to underexpose a shot.

So . . . in that case, kicking the camera into manual exposure mode is actually the easiest way to get the shot.

Also, like when I am shooting with manual mono lights for a portrait shoot session. I pick an ISO, aperture and shutter speed and then I dial in the mono lights to work with those settings. And then I shoot the whole day with those settings.

. . .

So, providing more control over how the exposure program works in your camera may seem complex, but may be the quickest and easiest way to get the camera to do what you want it to do, rather than trying to figure out how to trick your camera to do what you want it to do. LOL.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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TacticDesigns
OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,204
The more I do photography, the more I realize . . .

kelstertx wrote:

Tom Axford wrote:

I think anything that adds a lot more complexity to the camera is dead in the water, most photographers want simplicity not complexity.

I think the need for this programmability will go away soon anyway. They already have cameras that change focus and tracking modes automatically based on what the camera sees (ie Firmware 5 for A9), so if it isn't already, I suspect shutter speeds will soon be chosen more intelligently based on distance, perceived movement speed, and other factors. Auto modes are going to get smarter and smarter now that Ai automation is becoming a feature that manufacturers are competing on.

-Kelly

+1

Thanks for the reply.

I personally think the opposite.

I find, the more photography I do, the more I realize that sometimes taking control from the camera ends up being the easiest solution.

1) Automation is not always the easier way . . .

It's like when the Nikon EM or the Pentax ME came out.

Those SLR cameras were targeted at beginners and were designed to make taking pictures easier. They implemented an auto mode, and then got rid of the manual exposure mode.

IMHO, as you get more into taking pictures and you know what settings you want your camera at . . . every now and then it is nice to be able to turn off the automation so that you are not fighting the automation to get to the settings that you already know you want to be at.

It's like when I am shooting gymnastics or cheer. I already know pretty close at what ISO, aperture and shutter speeds I want to be shooting at.

For cheer I shoot ISO 6400, f/4, 1/500 sec in order to freeze the motion of the athletes, but also f/4 to try to bring in more of the athletes into focus so I can print groups of athletes in the yearbook.

But I can't use aperture priority because there are spot lights that light up in back of the athletes that then throw off the auto exposure.

In this case, because I already know what settings I want to be at, it is just way easier to dial in those settings manually and be done.

It things like this that made me never use the Pentax ME that some gave me. I just kept running into situations were I just know more about what I wanted than the camera did.

2) This system I describe is not just manual . . . it is meant to work in concert with the existing system.

Yeah. The system I describe is not "just" manual. It is meant to work in concert with the existing system.

Like if you want to control the shutter speed based off of focal length, you can just do that and leave the aperture and ISO in auto mode.

[Line-001][Watch][Focal Length][18-135]
[Line-002][Link to][Shutter Speed][Line-001][1/80-1/200]
[Line-003][Set to][Aperture][Auto]
[Line-004][Set to][ISO][Auto]

So it is meant to only provide as much "extra" control that you want.

3) But then you can think up other possibilities . . .

How about if when you shoot wide, you don't mind the shutter speed dropping a bit so you can let in a bit more light.

Like if shoot the pyramids in cheer. They are a little bit more still then.

Where as, when you zoom in, you might be isolating one athlete, so need a faster shutter speed because they are more likely to be doing something.

So this would be the program . . .

[Line-001][Watch][Focal Length][24-120]
[Line-002][Link to][Shutter Speed][Line-001][1/250-1/500]
[Line-003][Link to][ISO][Line-002][3200-6400]
[Line-004][Set to][Aperture][f/4]

So in this case, as I zoom out, the shutter speed drops to 1/250 sec, letting in more light. I compensate by dropping the ISO to 3200.

Since when I go wide, I am probably grabbing a group shot of cheer athletes, then it would be nice to be able to have a bit more detail on the "smaller" faces. But since there is less pixels on faces, the faces are more noisy. So . . . letting in twice as much light by dropping the shutter speed might help.

You could even set up your camera so that as you go wide, it uses a wider dept of field.

This could also work for group shots (wide) versus subject isolation (tele).

[Line-001][Watch][Focal Length][24-120]
[Line-002][Link to][Aperture][f/5.6-f/4]
[Line-003][Link to][Shutter Speed][Line-002][1/250-1/500]
[Line-004][Set to][ISO][6400]

The thing is.

If the system is generic enough. And has access to a lot of variables, such as focal length, aperture setting, ISO, focus distance, etc., then its up to the photographers what they want to use it for.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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Ron Poelman
Ron Poelman Veteran Member • Posts: 7,452
Sad but true.

quadrox wrote:

I like it, but I don't think it's ever going to happen... Too complicated for anyone but the most advanced users.

No one fixes stuff nowadays, if you can't buy it,
it's too much like having to think for yourself.

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Ron.
Volunteer, what could possibly go wrong ?

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TacticDesigns
OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,204
But then there is CHDK and Magic Lantern . . .

Ron Poelman wrote:

quadrox wrote:

I like it, but I don't think it's ever going to happen... Too complicated for anyone but the most advanced users.

No one fixes stuff nowadays, if you can't buy it,
it's too much like having to think for yourself.

But then you have things like CHDK and Magic Lantern.

Apparently there are people that go to lengths to squeeze as much as they can out of their cameras.

If things like this were made easier, maybe more people would consider it.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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(unknown member) Veteran Member • Posts: 6,680
Re: The Missing Program Mode

My Pentax has user configurable shooting modes.

Problem solved for me.

TacticDesigns
OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,204
Re: The Missing Program Mode

Wheatfield7 wrote:

My Pentax has user configurable shooting modes.

Problem solved for me.

+1

I wish that would solve it for me.

But it doesn't look like there is a camera out there that operates the way I am looking for it to operate.

I asked if anyone knew of a camera with this post . . .

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60834696

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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Tom_N Forum Pro • Posts: 15,924
Re: The Missing Program Mode
1

TacticDesigns wrote:

And I know that when I am shooting sports with a variable aperture lens and trying to shoot manual exposure . . . the fact that the aperture ratio changes as I zoom throws a wrench into getting the most out of my camera. LOL.

You can already stop down aperture to a setting that is available across the entire focal length range of your lens. No new complicated "programming" system required. Just set the camera to A/Av or M mode.

TacticDesigns
OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,204
Re: The Missing Program Mode

Tom_N wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

And I know that when I am shooting sports with a variable aperture lens and trying to shoot manual exposure . . . the fact that the aperture ratio changes as I zoom throws a wrench into getting the most out of my camera. LOL.

You can already stop down aperture to a setting that is available across the entire focal length range of your lens. No new complicated "programming" system required. Just set the camera to A/Av or M mode.

+1

Thanks for the post.

But that isn't what I want.

If I am shooting with a variable aperture lens, let's take 2 examples.

Either my superzoom . . .

Nikon 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6

or (not that I have one), but let's say an

18-50mm f/2.8-4

I could shoot both those lenses at the smaller ratio. f/5.6 for the superzoom or f/4 for the 18-50mm.

But then that means, I am losing out being able to let in more light when I go wide. Which means the pictures are more noisy than they needed to be.

So . . . what is the point of having the bigger aperture ratio at the wide end if I'm not going to use it.

[ One of the reasons I am not so found of getting an 18-50mm f/2.8-4 lens and I prefer my Tamron 28-75mm f/2.8. ]

As far as AV (aperture priority mode) goes. I can't use that for cheer competitions because there is spot lights positioned behind the athletes pointing towards the front of the stage. As these spot lights fire off seemingly randomly, that causes the camera (if in aperture priority mode) to under expose the shot.

So no go for aperture priority.

If I shoot manual exposure, I need to stop my lens down to the smaller aperture ratio, which means I'm losing potential light to shoot in an already dark environment.

Of course, I am already shooting these scenarios with constant aperture lenses. So I shoot manual because I can zoom through the range of my lenses and the aperture setting does not change.

But . . . wouldn't it be cool to shoot that cheer competition with a superzoom or 18-50mm f/2.8-4 and pull as much light out of that lens as possible . . . and not have the camera tricked by the spot lights behind the athletes?

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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Fogel70
Fogel70 Senior Member • Posts: 1,292
Re: The Missing Program Mode

TacticDesigns wrote:

Wheatfield7 wrote:

My Pentax has user configurable shooting modes.

Problem solved for me.

+1

I wish that would solve it for me.

But it doesn't look like there is a camera out there that operates the way I am looking for it to operate.

I asked if anyone knew of a camera with this post . . .

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60834696

Take care & Happy Shooting!

I can get my Pentax cameras to work that way. They do not have user programmable program modes, but they have selectable program lines for different scenarios, FI one program line is called MTF in which the camera prioritize sharpest apertures.

By using program mode with progran shift together with below setting the shutter speed will be kept fast and the program shift basically only control aperture.

Use "sports" program line for the camera to prioritize fast shutter speed independent of focal length.

Use auto iso and set auto iso parameter to "normal" or "fast" for auto iso to switch to higher iso on faster shutter speeds.

Not sure if all brand can be set up this way, but Nikon has the minimum shutter speed setting for auto iso that probably can be used for this.

But the main problem with this is the metering, as you want a metering that meters a small portion of the scene. So you need to either use spot metering off the faces or use face detection that only meters off the detected faces.

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Fresch Senior Member • Posts: 1,821
Re: The Missing Program Mode

How about one knob for shutter speed, held open to max speed in infinite steps.

same for ISO

same for lens opening.

Then you could just twist each knob to get the exposure you like, f2.36 s231.24 ISO 123.54

of course the camera is in manual, but still has the camera controlled options for the automated functions only infinite steps.

jnd Regular Member • Posts: 143
Re: The Missing Program Mode

I would use user programmable program mode a lot. I need more flexible settings with autoexposure in a way that for example doesn't result in overexposure but still maintains best image quality.

Let's say my subject has LED display that due to multiplexing can't be shot above 1/320 without parts of it falling apart. That doesn't depend on the weather or light levels, it's a basic condition for all shots, shoot at most at 1/320 s. Then let's say I want to have some DoF control so I will prefer shooting at f/4 if possible. ISO can be left at Auto, maxmizing the incoming light. In good conditions this will lead to overexposure even at base ISO, therefore I have use higher aperture numbers. In lower light I can choose between maximizing image quality or DoF control, meaning I will prefer my aperture to open up before auto ISO will go up. This could be easily automated with couple rules but as of now I have to switch between aperture priority, shutter priority or manual, with or without auto ISO depending on current lighting conditions.

Is it too complex for most users? Well, maybe but why they need to care? It can be separate settings that you use only when you need to. Same as complex settings for autfocusing beahviour, focusing or relase priority, how erratic the subject will move and so on. We already have that and most people will be happy with the default settings. Or touchscreen which have been controversial subject yet it's simple matter of turning it on/off depending on personal preference while almost all cameras are perfectly usable also with usuall physical buttons. Fuji even has it off by default so no one can complain.

We already have computers with image sensor as number one peripheral, it can do subject recognition, face detection, eye focusing, auto white balance, dynamic range enhancement and what not so why not use the computer to better automate and customize the exposure metering system too? Phone cameras are popular and easier to use because they are not afraid to use more post processing and custom scene programs, now using AI and multiple sensors, while classic photography is stuck with couple dials that have to be turned for every small change of lighting or subject when we want to use anything else than basic automatic modes.

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TacticDesigns
OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,204
+1. Here's your program code. :)

jnd wrote:

I would use user programmable program mode a lot. I need more flexible settings with autoexposure in a way that for example doesn't result in overexposure but still maintains best image quality.

Let's say my subject has LED display that due to multiplexing can't be shot above 1/320 without parts of it falling apart. That doesn't depend on the weather or light levels, it's a basic condition for all shots, shoot at most at 1/320 s. Then let's say I want to have some DoF control so I will prefer shooting at f/4 if possible. ISO can be left at Auto, maxmizing the incoming light. In good conditions this will lead to overexposure even at base ISO, therefore I have use higher aperture numbers. In lower light I can choose between maximizing image quality or DoF control, meaning I will prefer my aperture to open up before auto ISO will go up. This could be easily automated with couple rules but as of now I have to switch between aperture priority, shutter priority or manual, with or without auto ISO depending on current lighting conditions.

+1

Thanks for posting.

A very interesting situation! I love it!!!

Ok.

Two things.

1. It would be good to be able to read in certain details from what the multi-segment or matrix metering is reading.

Things like the brightest value being read. The lowest value being read.

And maybe even be able to tie that into a read value target or a zone target for that sensor.

[Line-001][Watch][Meter-Max]
[Line-002][Link to][Auto Exposure][Line-001][Zone][VIII]

So this means, watch the meter. Take the maximum value read assuming no part of the image is burnt out. And set exposure so that that LV gets recorded in Zone 8 within the capability of the sensor?

2. Prioritizing settings.

I hadn't thought about that.

I guess there could be a prioritizing of lines. Or may there is another way to code this. It's kinda a back-up way I was thinking about having the lines able to deal with non-linear changes in settings.

Basically, set the ranges.

[Line-001][Watch][Meter-Max]
[Line-002][Link to][Auto Exposure][Line-001][Zone][VIII]
[Line-003][Set to][Shutter Speed][1/320]
[Line-004][Set to][Aperture][Auto][f/4-f/max]
[Line-005][Watch][Aperture][f/4-f/11]
[Line-006][Link to][ISO][Line-005][Manual][800]
[Line-007][Watch][Aperture][f/11]
[Line-008][Link to][ISO][Line-007][Auto]
[Line-009][Watch][Aperture][f/11-f/max]
[Line-010][Link to][ISO][Line-009][Auto]

Ok. This is not the prioritize method, but breaking out the aperture into 2 ranges.

Line-001 = Watch the light meter max value.

Line-002 = Set auto exposure (EV) value so taht that brightest point falls in Zone VIII.

Line-003 = Set shutter speed to 1/320 sec.

Line-004 = Set Aperture to auto with a range of f/4 - f/22. f/4 because you don't want wider than that. f/22 perhaps is the max your lens can handle?

Next break the aperture range out into two ranges.

Line-005 = Watch aperture. When between f/4 - f/11 then Line-006 (Set ISO to 800). So this will force the camera to keep making the aperture smaller if things are too bright, but keep ISO at ISO 800.

If things get too bright at f/11, I am not sure how the camera would realize that it cannot achieve EV requested with keeping ISO at 800 and max f/11. But when the camera realizes it cannot achieve this, somehow it will see the additional code below.

Line-007 = Watch aperture. When at f/11 and too bright for ISO 800 then it tries to only use f/8, but then lets the ISO drop to base ISO.

And I guess you could add a final range of f/16 - f/max and let ISO be auto for the full range that the camera is capable of.

I guess the question is . . . is defining ranges like this easier or more precise than figuring out some sort of priority method to say . . . max out aperture first, then start changing ISO?

Is it too complex for most users? Well, maybe but why they need to care? It can be separate settings that you use only when you need to. Same as complex settings for autfocusing beahviour, focusing or relase priority, how erratic the subject will move and so on. We already have that and most people will be happy with the default settings. Or touchscreen which have been controversial subject yet it's simple matter of turning it on/off depending on personal preference while almost all cameras are perfectly usable also with usuall physical buttons. Fuji even has it off by default so no one can complain.

+1

Exactly.

We already have computers with image sensor as number one peripheral, it can do subject recognition, face detection, eye focusing, auto white balance, dynamic range enhancement and what not so why not use the computer to better automate and customize the exposure metering system too? Phone cameras are popular and easier to use because they are not afraid to use more post processing and custom scene programs, now using AI and multiple sensors, while classic photography is stuck with couple dials that have to be turned for every small change of lighting or subject when we want to use anything else than basic automatic modes.

+1

The thing is . . . us photographers already have this "program" in our head.

It is defined as the rules we use in order to set the exposure setting values ourselves.

The only thing that this "Missing Program Mode" is offering is to get that "program" out of your head and programmed into the camera so that it can change the settings based on how you wanted to have the settings change anyway. LOL.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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PWPhotography Senior Member • Posts: 7,917
Re: The Missing Program Mode

Wow such as long post.  Personally I don't use Program mode.

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 43,226
Re: The Missing Program Mode

There are a number of cameras that offer auto ISO in manual mode that will give you a consistent resulting brightness.

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Tom

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TacticDesigns
OP TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,204
Re: The Missing Program Mode

PWPhotography wrote:

Wow such as long post. Personally I don't use Program mode.

+1. Thanks for the post!

LOL.

Sorry for the long post! LOL.

But . . . this is not "A Program Mode", this is "The Missing Program Mode"!!!

LOL.

But all joking aside, if you read through it, you'll see that what I am describing does not necessarily mean using the cameras auto exposure mode.

This system can enhance shooting in manual exposure mode.

This is actually where the idea started.

It's just this particular scenario has been bugging me for the 8 years I've been shooting my daughters at indoor sports (gymnastics / cheer).

I was asking what camera offered this type of control here in this post . . .

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60834696

But no one ever pointed out a camera that was able to do specifically what I was asking.

Something like this is not for everyone.

But IMHO could help some push what their equipment can do.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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