not terribly afraid of f/8 on my 2500

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Jim N'AZ Veteran Member • Posts: 7,540
not terribly afraid of f/8 on my 2500
4

Took a little jaunt out into our springtime desert and came across this quite colorful juxtaposition of death and new life.

I cranked my aperture down to f/8 to get as much of that foreground in focus as possible and still hold the tree somewhat sharp, all the while knowing(?) that the overall sharpness would likely suffer slightly. Nope, nada, as far as I can see and I have applied no sharpening whatsoever. I did a whole series while resorting to f/8 and all are quite sharp.

BTW, anyone know what kind of this tree is in the Arizona desert? There were about 40-50 of these all in a small area and all look just like this one. I'm curious what could have killed them all, if in fact, they ARE dead.

I add this series to my folder labeled "my FZ2500 lens IS sharp"!

As per usual, please view "Original" Ugh... this is really ugly after Dpr gets done w/it.... So sad, sigh...

Regards, Jim

Panasonic FZ2500
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SeekerNJ New Member • Posts: 14
Re: not terribly afraid of f/8 on my 2500
1

Really (re. DPR degradation)? Looks very good to me. Can you elaborate on the loss of quality after posting?

Dak on cam
Dak on cam Contributing Member • Posts: 937
Re: not terribly afraid of f/8 on my 2500

Jim N'AZ wrote:

Took a little jaunt out into our springtime desert and came across this quite colorful juxtaposition of death and new life.

I cranked my aperture down to f/8 to get as much of that foreground in focus as possible and still hold the tree somewhat sharp, all the while knowing(?) that the overall sharpness would likely suffer slightly. Nope, nada, as far as I can see and I have applied no sharpening whatsoever. I did a whole series while resorting to f/8 and all are quite sharp.

f:8 is diffraction domain on the 1/2.33" sensor of a DMC-FZ200 and its small-sensor cousins.  On an 1" sensor, you'd be on f:16 at least for comparable softness.  In addition, diffraction occurs equally at every distance (as opposed to defocusing) so camera processing can account for it at the cost of amplifying base noise.

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LeanderOne Regular Member • Posts: 156
Re: not terribly afraid of f/8 on my 2500
1

On my Fz2000 optimum sharpness varies depending on focal length, and at the tele end F8 is actually is the sharpest f-stop.

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Ken Yull Senior Member • Posts: 2,123
Re: not terribly afraid of f/8 on my 2500

Jim N'AZ wrote:

Took a little jaunt out into our springtime desert and came across this quite colorful juxtaposition of death and new life.

BTW, anyone know what kind of this tree is in the Arizona desert? There were about 40-50 of these all in a small area and all look just like this one. I'm curious what could have killed them all, if in fact, they ARE dead.

Regards, Jim

Hi Jim nothing wrong with that photo and I'm happy with my 2500 also. Get best results using manual focus assist, but needs tripod if shutter speed too slow.

Have dl'd a copy and sent to a forestry preservation consultant for last 60+ years traveled all over the world, if he has any knowledge of this I'll let you know. Retired now but still loves talking about trees.

-- hide signature --

Cheers. Ken.

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Jon_T
Jon_T Veteran Member • Posts: 4,182
Re: not terribly afraid of f/8 on my 2500

Dak on cam wrote:

Jim N'AZ wrote:

Took a little jaunt out into our springtime desert and came across this quite colorful juxtaposition of death and new life.

I cranked my aperture down to f/8 to get as much of that foreground in focus as possible and still hold the tree somewhat sharp, all the while knowing(?) that the overall sharpness would likely suffer slightly. Nope, nada, as far as I can see and I have applied no sharpening whatsoever. I did a whole series while resorting to f/8 and all are quite sharp.

f:8 is diffraction domain on the 1/2.33" sensor of a DMC-FZ200 and its small-sensor cousins. On an 1" sensor, you'd be on f:16 at least for comparable softness. ...

Where did you 'read' this? Provide link?

Diffraction also dependent on sensor's pixel density, lens optical design, actual aperture opening shape (i.e., some form of hexagonal shape with simple five or six straight aperture blades, or of the seven+ 'rounded' aperture blades).

Reminds of wanting, but never getting around to doing, is a f-stop comparison tests with my ZS50 and FZ200. With my ZS50 going beyond f/5.6 (250mm EFL) image degradation becomes more noticeable.

From 'casual' observations the FZ200's images in the 250-600mm EFL are noticeably better than the ZS50.

With my FZ80 I try to keep zoom max to 1033mm EFL which has a f/5.6, as lens longer focal lengths/ smaller max apertures degrades IQ .

Awhile back Anayv posted some FZ80 20mm EFL shots at f/2.8, f/3.2 ( f/4 intended), f/5.6 and f/8.

From these shots, (and my own FZ80 experiences) using apertures smaller than f/5.6 in hopes of greater DOF will obliterate IQ .

Cheers,
Jon

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Dak on cam
Dak on cam Contributing Member • Posts: 937
Re: not terribly afraid of f/8 on my 2500

Jon_T wrote:

Dak on cam wrote:

Jim N'AZ wrote:

Took a little jaunt out into our springtime desert and came across this quite colorful juxtaposition of death and new life.

I cranked my aperture down to f/8 to get as much of that foreground in focus as possible and still hold the tree somewhat sharp, all the while knowing(?) that the overall sharpness would likely suffer slightly. Nope, nada, as far as I can see and I have applied no sharpening whatsoever. I did a whole series while resorting to f/8 and all are quite sharp.

f:8 is diffraction domain on the 1/2.33" sensor of a DMC-FZ200 and its small-sensor cousins. On an 1" sensor, you'd be on f:16 at least for comparable softness. ...

Where did you 'read' this? Provide link?

The value relevant for diffraction is the actual aperture size (rather than aperture number) which tends to scale with the crop factor.

Diffraction also dependent on sensor's pixel density, lens optical design, actual aperture opening shape (i.e., some form of hexagonal shape with simple five or six straight aperture blades, or of the seven+ 'rounded' aperture blades).

Sure, that too. But you'll be hard put to find aperture numbers of f:32 at anything below full-frame cameras.

From these shots, (and my own FZ80 experiences) using apertures smaller than f/5.6 in hopes of greater DOF will obliterate IQ .

The FZ80 is a 1/2.3" sensor design. Of course, if you are angling for greater DOF, a full-frame sensor will buy you squat since its proportionally larger real f causes a proportionally smaller DOF again, so the proportionally larger aperture numbers before getting diffraction are no net gain.

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Jon_T
Jon_T Veteran Member • Posts: 4,182
Re: not terribly afraid of f/8 on my 2500

Dak on cam wrote:

Jon_T wrote:

Dak on cam wrote:

Jim N'AZ wrote:

Took a little jaunt out into our springtime desert and came across this quite colorful juxtaposition of death and new life.

I cranked my aperture down to f/8 to get as much of that foreground in focus as possible and still hold the tree somewhat sharp, all the while knowing(?) that the overall sharpness would likely suffer slightly. Nope, nada, as far as I can see and I have applied no sharpening whatsoever. I did a whole series while resorting to f/8 and all are quite sharp.

f:8 is diffraction domain on the 1/2.33" sensor of a DMC-FZ200 and its small-sensor cousins. On an 1" sensor, you'd be on f:16 at least for comparable softness. ...

Where did you 'read' this? Provide link?

The value relevant for diffraction is the actual aperture size (rather than aperture number) which tends to scale with the crop factor. ...

I was referring to the f/8 for /2.3" sensor and f/16 for 1"-Type Sensor values—rest is just technical gibberish without link/ backup to substantiate.

From these shots, (and my own FZ80 experiences) using apertures smaller than f/5.6 in hopes of greater DOF will obliterate IQ .

The FZ80 is a 1/2.3" sensor design. Of course, if you are angling for greater DOF, a full-frame sensor will buy you squat since its proportionally larger real f causes a proportionally smaller DOF again, so the proportionally larger aperture numbers before getting diffraction are no net gain.

REALLY? I'm well aware the FZ80, FZ200, and many other cameras' sensor size.  Was ONLY referring to whenusing the FZ80 that using smaller aperture than the FZ80's lens selected focal length's max aperture the increased diffraction will nullify any DOF gain.

As I CLEARLY posted:

"... With my FZ80 I try to keep zoom max to 1033mm EFL which has a f/5.6, as lens longer focal lengths/ smaller max apertures degrades IQ . ..."

Again, the rest of your reply does not mean 'squat' to my post.

In the future, PLEASE keep your replies to the subject matter in my post and dispense with all the technical gibberish which so far has not been relevant.

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Dak on cam
Dak on cam Contributing Member • Posts: 937
Re: not terribly afraid of f/8 on my 2500

Jon_T wrote:

Dak on cam wrote:

Jon_T wrote:

Dak on cam wrote:

Jim N'AZ wrote:

Took a little jaunt out into our springtime desert and came across this quite colorful juxtaposition of death and new life.

I cranked my aperture down to f/8 to get as much of that foreground in focus as possible and still hold the tree somewhat sharp, all the while knowing(?) that the overall sharpness would likely suffer slightly. Nope, nada, as far as I can see and I have applied no sharpening whatsoever. I did a whole series while resorting to f/8 and all are quite sharp.

f:8 is diffraction domain on the 1/2.33" sensor of a DMC-FZ200 and its small-sensor cousins. On an 1" sensor, you'd be on f:16 at least for comparable softness. ...

Where did you 'read' this? Provide link?

The value relevant for diffraction is the actual aperture size (rather than aperture number) which tends to scale with the crop factor. ...

I was referring to the f/8 for /2.3" sensor and f/16 for 1"-Type Sensor values—rest is just technical gibberish without link/ backup to substantiate.

From these shots, (and my own FZ80 experiences) using apertures smaller than f/5.6 in hopes of greater DOF will obliterate IQ .

The FZ80 is a 1/2.3" sensor design. Of course, if you are angling for greater DOF, a full-frame sensor will buy you squat since its proportionally larger real f causes a proportionally smaller DOF again, so the proportionally larger aperture numbers before getting diffraction are no net gain.

REALLY? I'm well aware the FZ80, FZ200, and many other cameras' sensor size. Was ONLY referring to whenusing the FZ80 that using smaller aperture than the FZ80's lens selected focal length's max aperture the increased diffraction will nullify any DOF gain.

As I CLEARLY posted:

"... With my FZ80 I try to keep zoom max to 1033mm EFL which has a f/5.6, as lens longer focal lengths/ smaller max apertures degrades IQ . ..."

Again, the rest of your reply does not mean 'squat' to my post.

In the future, PLEASE keep your replies to the subject matter in my post and dispense with all the technical gibberish which so far has not been relevant.

Jim wrote that f:8 yielded ok results on his 1" sensor FZ2500 camera.  I said that f:8 was problematic rather on 1/2.3" sensors.  You violently complained that f:8 was bad on your FZ80 camera and I was talking nonsense.  To which I replied that the FZ80 is one of the 1/2.3" cameras for which I stated that f:8 would not work well.  So now you complain that my original reply to Jim's observation about his FS2500 camera does not match the "subject matter" in what you wrote in response to my reply?

Seriously: how am I supposed to "keep" to the subject matter of stuff you haven't even written yet?

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OP Jim N'AZ Veteran Member • Posts: 7,540
Whoops, even went to f/10 on this one!
2

Regards, Jim

evetsf Contributing Member • Posts: 870
Re: not terribly afraid of f/8 on my 2500

I agree, f/8 and even smaller is not a serious impediment to IQ on my 2500 either.

Nevertheless for some of my shooting - multi-image bursts in shutter priority - I try to keep a wider aperture as I've noticed that the frame rate slows down at those small apertures.  If necessary I kick in a click or two of ND filter to keep the aperture open and shutter firing rapidly.

Steve

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Ken Yull Senior Member • Posts: 2,123
f/10 on this one! Looks good to me!

Hi Jim re the trees identity, my friend has a highly developed sense of humour, so his reply maybe along those lines. He replied immediately saying looks like a "Firewood Tree". I know little about names of trees, but I think his sense of fun is showing.

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Cheers. Ken.

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Skip
Skip Senior Member • Posts: 1,965
Re: not terribly afraid of f/8 on my 2500

evetsf wrote:

If necessary I kick in a click or two of ND filter to keep the aperture open and shutter firing rapidly.

Steve

I thought that ND's were used to slow the shutter?

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evetsf Contributing Member • Posts: 870
Re: not terribly afraid of f/8 on my 2500

Skip wrote:

evetsf wrote:

If necessary I kick in a click or two of ND filter to keep the aperture open and shutter firing rapidly.

Steve

I thought that ND's were used to slow the shutter?

Depends on exposure mode; NDs in general reduce the light coming through the lens.

If shooting Aperture Priority adding NDs will slow the shutter. If using Shutter Priority, NDs will open the aperture.

Steve

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OP Jim N'AZ Veteran Member • Posts: 7,540
Re: f/10 on this one! Looks good to me!

Good one, Ken! A tip of the hat to your friend too😁😁😁

Regards, Jim

Ken Yull wrote:

Hi Jim re the trees identity, my friend has a highly developed sense of humour, so his reply maybe along those lines. He replied immediately saying looks like a "Firewood Tree". I know little about names of trees, but I think his sense of fun is showing.

OP Jim N'AZ Veteran Member • Posts: 7,540
Re: not terribly afraid of f/8 on my 2500

Yes, Steve, (the ND's and more) are certainly food for thought. With all of the available options on the 2500, it is a good thing to slow down occasionally and think about more possibilities while in the heat of the moment. It often reminds me of my medium format shooting days.

Regards, Jim

evetsf wrote:

I agree, f/8 and even smaller is not a serious impediment to IQ on my 2500 either.

Nevertheless for some of my shooting - multi-image bursts in shutter priority - I try to keep a wider aperture as I've noticed that the frame rate slows down at those small apertures. If necessary I kick in a click or two of ND filter to keep the aperture open and shutter firing rapidly.

Steve

OP Jim N'AZ Veteran Member • Posts: 7,540
Re: not terribly afraid of f/8 on my 2500

SeekerNJ wrote:

Really (re. DPR degradation)? Looks very good to me. Can you elaborate on the loss of quality after posting?

Hi, SeekerNJ. The compressed image quality difference seen when you first open a post when compared with the original option (at the bottom of the image window) is pretty dramatic.

Regards, Jim

gardenersassistant Veteran Member • Posts: 5,967
Re: not terribly afraid of f/8 on my 2500

Jon_T wrote:

From these shots, (and my own FZ80 experiences) using apertures smaller than f/5.6 in hopes of greater DOF will obliterate IQ .

My experience differs. Over the past 10 years, for invertebrates, now with an FZ330 and previously with two FZ200s and an SX10, all 1/2.3" sensors, I have used f/8 pretty much all the time. I don't feel IQ gets obliterated.

Jon_T
Jon_T Veteran Member • Posts: 4,182
Re: not terribly afraid of f/8 on my 2500

Dak on cam wrote:

Jon_T wrote:

Dak on cam wrote:

Jon_T wrote:

Dak on cam wrote:

Jim N'AZ wrote:

Took a little jaunt out into our springtime desert and came across this quite colorful juxtaposition of death and new life.

I cranked my aperture down to f/8 to get as much of that foreground in focus as possible and still hold the tree somewhat sharp, all the while knowing(?) that the overall sharpness would likely suffer slightly. Nope, nada, as far as I can see and I have applied no sharpening whatsoever. I did a whole series while resorting to f/8 and all are quite sharp.

f:8 is diffraction domain on the 1/2.33" sensor of a DMC-FZ200 and its small-sensor cousins. On an 1" sensor, you'd be on f:16 at least for comparable softness. ...

Where did you 'read' this? Provide link?

The value relevant for diffraction is the actual aperture size (rather than aperture number) which tends to scale with the crop factor. ...

I was referring to the f/8 for /2.3" sensor and f/16 for 1"-Type Sensor values—rest is just technical gibberish without link/ backup to substantiate.

From these shots, (and my own FZ80 experiences) using apertures smaller than f/5.6 in hopes of greater DOF will obliterate IQ .

The FZ80 is a 1/2.3" sensor design. Of course, if you are angling for greater DOF, a full-frame sensor will buy you squat since its proportionally larger real f causes a proportionally smaller DOF again, so the proportionally larger aperture numbers before getting diffraction are no net gain.

REALLY? I'm well aware the FZ80, FZ200, and many other cameras' sensor size. Was ONLY referring to whenusing the FZ80 that using smaller aperture than the FZ80's lens selected focal length's max aperture the increased diffraction will nullify any DOF gain.

As I CLEARLY posted:

"... With my FZ80 I try to keep zoom max to 1033mm EFL which has a f/5.6, as lens longer focal lengths/ smaller max apertures degrades IQ . ..."

Again, the rest of your reply does not mean 'squat' to my post.

In the future, PLEASE keep your replies to the subject matter in my post and dispense with all the technical gibberish which so far has not been relevant.

Jim wrote that f:8 yielded ok results on his 1" sensor FZ2500 camera. I said that f:8 was problematic rather on 1/2.3" sensors. You violently complained that f:8 was bad on your FZ80 camera and I was talking nonsense. ....

If you go back to my FIRST reply I was ASKING where you got the f/8 and f/16 values, as I was questing the validity NOT complaining.

To which I replied that the FZ80 is one of the 1/2.3" cameras for which I stated that f:8 would not work well. ...

That's not was you posted.  You only posted that the "FZ80 is a 1/2.3" sensor design." as if I was not aware it was; then you started discussing full frame ... not relevant.

.... So now you complain that my original reply to Jim's observation about his FS2500 camera does not match the "subject matter" in what you wrote in response to my reply? ...

Again, as noted previously in my FIRST reply was ONLY a request to substantiate  YOUR statementas to the f/8 and f/16 values — NOTHING MORE.

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Anders_K Regular Member • Posts: 336
Re: not terribly afraid of f/8 on my 2500
1

Jim N'AZ wrote:

Yes, Steve, (the ND's and more) are certainly food for thought. With all of the available options on the 2500, it is a good thing to slow down occasionally and think about more possibilities while in the heat of the moment. It often reminds me of my medium format shooting days.

Sometimes I am feeling just stupid with that camera.

But when I start tinkering with it, I think it's a good Alzheimer prevention exercise too....   

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