Just ordered a Panny GX9!!

PeteGeordie wrote:

JakeJY wrote:

PeteGeordie wrote:

JakeJY wrote:

jrsforums wrote:

JakeJY wrote:

MikeF15 wrote:

In relation to the “street photography” thing,. Anyone I wonder how to silence the shutter? I tuners down all the sounds to zero (same as my GX7) but I find when I press the shutter release the camera makes a sound like the shutter flaps about 3 times and it’s not quiet at all,.

Not a major issue but I would prefer if I could quiet it by at least half!

Did you enable electronic shutter already (REC > Shutter Type > ESHTR? Note that ESHTR may drop to 10-bit RAWs instead of 12-bit.

The other way is instead of turning all sounds to zero manually, just set the camera to silent mode in the custom menu. You can assign this to a function button if you want to toggle it on and off quickly.

If it's still making sounds, it may be the aperture of the lens. M43 focuses wide open and then stops down the lens when taking the picture. If you want to avoid this you can set the camera to "Constant Preview" in the Custom menu (note only works in M mode). This will have the aperture stopped down the entire time. Note that it may make focusing slower and also preview slower (as it simulates the shutter speed also).

I believe that with the GX8, and since, all Panasonic cameras do not drop bit rate when in ESHTR.

There was never any conclusive test done for the GX85 and GX9 that I have read, so it's unknown. For earlier cameras however it was known that the bit rate does drop.

When I got my GX9 I tested the eshtr modes of this and my gx80. Looking At the RAWs with rawdigger the GX9 produces indistinguishable files for both mechanical and electronic shutter. The GX80 RAWs are markedly different between eshtr and mechanical.

Conclusive? It is to me and I use GX9 in ESHTR unless I need to use mechanical.

I'm an engineering type and I prefer quantitative and repeatable results, so I did my own analysis using a repeatable method (which anyone can do themselves with free software). There was another post that said when a camera switches to 10-bit it ignores the lower 2 bits. So I used dcraw to convert the RW2 to a grayscale PGM file (keeping all unscaled/uninterpolated RAW data). I then examined it in a hex editor (I used HXD) and value of the lower 2 bits are "11" for almost all pixels in the 10-bit files (not the case for 12-bit). I wrote a program to count the occurrence of all the different values of the lower 2 bits to make things easier. I got e-shutter samples from the exposure latitude comparison tool in DPReview or searching through galleries of imaging resource or photographyblog for rw2 samples at shutter speeds higher than mechanical (I verified shutter type was electronic with exiftool).

The results I got was as below:

10-bit e-shutter:
GM1
GM5
GX85
G7
GH4

12-bit e-shutter:
GF7
GX850 (GF9)
GX8
GX9
G85

Need a e-shutter RW2 sample to determine:
GX7
GH5
GH5S
G9

As you can see, the 10-bit e-shutter also occurred in cameras after the GX8 (GX85 came after), but 12-bit also was before, even in the entry level cameras. I was a bit surprised at some (like how GF7 has 12-bit while GM series didn't). I think Panasonic mainly made a decision on each camera (slower readout vs 10-bit at faster readout), not really a set pattern or a specific date they decided to do one way or the other.

This is getting very off topic, so I will perhaps start another thread for reference, but I'm still missing a few samples of the modern cameras.

All good but my method is equally repeatable. Same image taken with electronic and mechanical shutter. In Rawdigger when there is a drop in the bit depth it is clear to see the more sparse data in the shadow end of the histogram... or look at the data values if you so desire but it is not necessary.

GX80 clearly 10-bit e-shutter

GX9 clearly same as mechanical

I contacted Mat of ‘MirrorLessons’ (MirrorlessComparisons, etc), who’s reviews I highly respect.

His response to me (2 emails) was:

I took two pictures with my GX85 (the first with the mechanical shutter, the second with the electronic shutter), opened the files with RAW Digger and the software indicates 12-bit for both files.

It is possible that they drop to 10-bit when shooting in continuous mode, I know that a similar thing happens with select Sony cameras.

Out of curiosity, I did a second test by shooting in continuous mode with the e-shutter, and Raw Digger still indicates 12-bits for the RAW files.

Now it may differ from camera to camera, I only have the GX85 with me so I can only comment on that one.

jrsforums wrote:

PeteGeordie wrote:

JakeJY wrote:

I'm an engineering type and I prefer quantitative and repeatable results, so I did my own analysis using a repeatable method (which anyone can do themselves with free software). There was another post that said when a camera switches to 10-bit it ignores the lower 2 bits. So I used dcraw to convert the RW2 to a grayscale PGM file (keeping all unscaled/uninterpolated RAW data). I then examined it in a hex editor (I used HXD) and value of the lower 2 bits are "11" for almost all pixels in the 10-bit files (not the case for 12-bit). I wrote a program to count the occurrence of all the different values of the lower 2 bits to make things easier. I got e-shutter samples from the exposure latitude comparison tool in DPReview or searching through galleries of imaging resource or photographyblog for rw2 samples at shutter speeds higher than mechanical (I verified shutter type was electronic with exiftool).

The results I got was as below:

10-bit e-shutter:
GM1
GM5
GX85
G7
GH4

12-bit e-shutter:
GF7
GX850 (GF9)
GX8
GX9
G85

Need a e-shutter RW2 sample to determine:
GX7
GH5
GH5S
G9

As you can see, the 10-bit e-shutter also occurred in cameras after the GX8 (GX85 came after), but 12-bit also was before, even in the entry level cameras. I was a bit surprised at some (like how GF7 has 12-bit while GM series didn't). I think Panasonic mainly made a decision on each camera (slower readout vs 10-bit at faster readout), not really a set pattern or a specific date they decided to do one way or the other.

This is getting very off topic, so I will perhaps start another thread for reference, but I'm still missing a few samples of the modern cameras.

All good but my method is equally repeatable. Same image taken with electronic and mechanical shutter. In Rawdigger when there is a drop in the bit depth it is clear to see the more sparse data in the shadow end of the histogram... or look at the data values if you so desire but it is not necessary.

GX80 clearly 10-bit e-shutter

GX9 clearly same as mechanical

I contacted Mat of ‘MirrorLessons’ (MirrorlessComparisons, etc), who’s reviews I highly respect.

His response to me (2 emails) was:

I took two pictures with my GX85 (the first with the mechanical shutter, the second with the electronic shutter), opened the files with RAW Digger and the software indicates 12-bit for both files.

It is possible that they drop to 10-bit when shooting in continuous mode, I know that a similar thing happens with select Sony cameras.

Out of curiosity, I did a second test by shooting in continuous mode with the e-shutter, and Raw Digger still indicates 12-bits for the RAW files.

Now it may differ from camera to camera, I only have the GX85 with me so I can only comment on that one.

I should clarify. The RAW files are still 12-bit. However, the lower two bits are filled with "11" for practically all pixels when shooting electronic shutter with the GX85 (or with the other cameras I identified as having 10-bit RAW). Thus effectively you are only getting 10-bits of actual real data. This becomes very clear when you look at the actual RAW values in a hex editor.

Now, roughly 1/4 of the time having "11" on the lower 2 bits is correct. However, the other roughly 3/4 of the time "11" is wrong, because the actual real value should have been "00", "01", or "10" for the lower two bits. This is when you see artifacts in the picture in the 10-bit vs the 12-bit readout.

MikeF15 wrote:

Very excited to "leap" ahead with this camera. I currently shoot a GX7 and am looking forward to the improved IBIS and colour tech/sensor upgrade. Now I need to sell my GX7 and GM5 to fund the purchase,.. (I may sell my ZS200 but not too sure yet,..) will be saddened to see them go but I feel like a two-to-three-generation upgrade is warranted.

Any advice with the GX9? I hear that upgrading the GX9 to the newest software can also muck up the IBIS,.. is this true?

Cheers and happy shooting

Mike F

Don't sell the GM5... I love both my GM5 and my GX9.

I got the accessory grip  and eyecup for the GX9 -- recommended.

Yes I kept my GM5 (have the eyecup as well). Hard to part with!!

and I also got the eyecup for the GX9! I feel they make using the smallish EVFs way not comfortable and allow better viewing overall.

Cheers

Mike F

• I agree with all the positive comments on the gx9. It is a great thankfully small and light camera, brilliant for travel with the 14-140mm lens. But I noticed some problems with the rear lcd screen shortly after purchasing mine. It still functioned for about six months before totally ceasing to operate. I got the camera repaired on warrenty but lost about five weeks of valuable picture taking. Six months later the new rear screen is showing the same problems as the original one. I never had any problems with the gx85 with which I took thousands of pictures over a period of years. Absolutely solid and reliable. 

I am looking for a second camera that will fit in a pocket to use when traveling. The GX9 looks nice but the 12-60mm lens is too long for a pocket. The GX85 offered a Panasonic Lumix G Vario 12-32mm lens that was much smaller but it is no longer available. I could still buy a GX85 with the 12-32mm lens but I like some of the new features of the GX9 (e.g. focus stacking).

Is there a similar pancake' type lens for the GX9? A scan of B&H lens didn't show much. Ideally, I'd like a short zoom rather than a prime.

nbirkett wrote:

I am looking for a second camera that will fit in a pocket to use when traveling. The GX9 looks nice but the 12-60mm lens is too long for a pocket. The GX85 offered a Panasonic Lumix G Vario 12-32mm lens that was much smaller but it is no longer available. I could still buy a GX85 with the 12-32mm lens but I like some of the new features of the GX9 (e.g. focus stacking).

Is there a similar pancake' type lens for the GX9? A scan of B&H lens didn't show much. Ideally, I'd like a short zoom rather than a prime.

The 12-32 short zoom is still available. All the same lenses fit both cameras.

Chris Noble wrote:

nbirkett wrote:

I am looking for a second camera that will fit in a pocket to use when traveling. The GX9 looks nice but the 12-60mm lens is too long for a pocket. The GX85 offered a Panasonic Lumix G Vario 12-32mm lens that was much smaller but it is no longer available. I could still buy a GX85 with the 12-32mm lens but I like some of the new features of the GX9 (e.g. focus stacking).

Is there a similar pancake' type lens for the GX9? A scan of B&H lens didn't show much. Ideally, I'd like a short zoom rather than a prime.

The 12-32 short zoom is still available. All the same lenses fit both cameras.

if not through a store, eBay or, sometimes, amazon

nbirkett wrote:

. I could still buy a GX85 with the 12-32mm lens but I like some of the new features of the GX9 (e.g. focus stacking).

I stand corrected but believe that gx85 does have focus stacking

Chris Noble wrote:

The 12-32 short zoom is still available. All the same lenses fit both cameras.

It is still being sold as part of a GX85 package. But, B&H lists the lens alone as discontinued. Amazon (in Canada where I live) is offering new versions for $300US (since is expensive). Adorama doesn't list it as a separate item. I'm not a big ebay fan

fcna72 wrote:

nbirkett wrote:

. I could still buy a GX85 with the 12-32mm lens but I like some of the new features of the GX9 (e.g. focus stacking).

I stand corrected but believe that gx85 does have focus stacking

I read through parts of the GX85 user manual.  It offers something called 'post focus' which, if I understand correctly, allows selection of different focal points during post-processing.  A search of the manual for 'stack' found no matches.  In the GX9 manual, focus stacking is described in the same section as 'post focusing'. This isn't a 'deal breaker' but it would be nice to have.

nbirkett wrote:

fcna72 wrote:

nbirkett wrote:

. I could still buy a GX85 with the 12-32mm lens but I like some of the new features of the GX9 (e.g. focus stacking).

I stand corrected but believe that gx85 does have focus stacking

I read through parts of the GX85 user manual. It offers something called 'post focus' which, if I understand correctly, allows selection of different focal points during post-processing. A search of the manual for 'stack' found no matches. In the GX9 manual, focus stacking is described in the same section as 'post focusing'. This isn't a 'deal breaker' but it would be nice to have.

The focus stacking came in a firmware update for the GX85. So it does have it (presuming you do the firmware update) even though it's not in the manual.

http://www.photojosephstudios.com/blog/update-your-lumix-gx85-for-in-camera-focus-stacking

https://av.jpn.support.panasonic.com/support/global/cs/dsc/download/fts/dl/gx80_gx85.html

I'm asking because the GX9 and GX85 are both...rather large for a pocket. Unless they are cargo pants or big jacket pockets, I would think they are too big regardless of the lens that is attached. And even then, I would think the weight and size would make those pockets bulge down so those pockets would also need to be rather stiff/tough. And forget about any considerations about fashion sense with those bulging from your pockets (if that matters).

The largest camera I generally would be comfortable putting into the available pockets that I have would be the Panasonic GM series (GM1 in my case) or something the size of the Sony RX100 (M2 in my case).

As for lenses for my GM1, I generally use the 12-32mm, Panasonic 20mm or the Panasonic Leica 15mm. I also do have the Panasonic 14mm which is the smallest (real, not toy) lens in MFT. I just don't generally use it. The PL 15mm isn't a pancake but it is small enough. If I need a telephoto lens, I also have the Olympus 45mm 1.8.

JakeJY wrote:

nbirkett wrote:

fcna72 wrote:

nbirkett wrote:

. I could still buy a GX85 with the 12-32mm lens but I like some of the new features of the GX9 (e.g. focus stacking).

I stand corrected but believe that gx85 does have focus stacking

I read through parts of the GX85 user manual. It offers something called 'post focus' which, if I understand correctly, allows selection of different focal points during post-processing. A search of the manual for 'stack' found no matches. In the GX9 manual, focus stacking is described in the same section as 'post focusing'. This isn't a 'deal breaker' but it would be nice to have.

The focus stacking came in a firmware update for the GX85. So it does have it (presuming you do the firmware update) even though it's not in the manual.

http://www.photojosephstudios.com/blog/update-your-lumix-gx85-for-in-camera-focus-stacking

https://av.jpn.support.panasonic.com/support/global/cs/dsc/download/fts/dl/gx80_gx85.html

That is very interesting. I wasn't aware of the update but it makes good sense.

And responding to peppermonkey's next post too:

As for pocket sizes I was thinking more about a pocket in a jacket than in trousers. Perhaps in larger pockets of dedicated hiking pants. Or, maybe in a small fanny pack. I wouldn't be using this where 'style' matter - function over form

I haven't seen the GX85 yet (planning to pay a visit to a local camera store tomorrow). Maybe I will feel differently after a hands-on visit.

Edit: as I think about this some more, I may not really mean a literal 'pocket'.  But, rather something that is easy and convenient to carry around on casual walks, etc.  Unlike a DSLR with multiple lenses.

peppermonkey wrote:

I'm asking because the GX9 and GX85 are both...rather large for a pocket. Unless they are cargo pants or big jacket pockets, I would think they are too big regardless of the lens that is attached. And even then, I would think the weight and size would make those pockets bulge down so those pockets would also need to be rather stiff/tough. And forget about any considerations about fashion sense with those bulging from your pockets (if that matters).

The largest camera I generally would be comfortable putting into the available pockets that I have would be the Panasonic GM series (GM1 in my case) or something the size of the Sony RX100 (M2 in my case).

As for lenses for my GM1, I generally use the 12-32mm, Panasonic 20mm or the Panasonic Leica 15mm. I also do have the Panasonic 14mm which is the smallest (real, not toy) lens in MFT. I just don't generally use it. The PL 15mm isn't a pancake but it is small enough. If I need a telephoto lens, I also have the Olympus 45mm 1.8.

I kind of researched this before when shopping my GX85. I don't think even the GM1/GM5 with any lens other than bodycap ones would be suitable for typical pants pockets. It won't be comfortable just because of the thickness of the lens. Something like a RX100 is considerably thinner.

The GX9 and GX85 other than the EVF hump is pretty close to the sizes of the E-P2 and GF1. With the 12-32mm they are at the limit of what a typical jacket pocket would fit.

nbirkett wrote:

That is very interesting. I wasn't aware of the update but it makes good sense.

And responding to peppermonkey's next post too:

As for pocket sizes I was thinking more about a pocket in a jacket than in trousers. Perhaps in larger pockets of dedicated hiking pants. Or, maybe in a small fanny pack. I wouldn't be using this where 'style' matter - function over form

I haven't seen the GX85 yet (planning to pay a visit to a local camera store tomorrow). Maybe I will feel differently after a hands-on visit.

Edit: as I think about this some more, I may not really mean a literal 'pocket'. But, rather something that is easy and convenient to carry around on casual walks, etc. Unlike a DSLR with multiple lenses.

I have a GX85 with the 12-32mm and it fits just fine in my jacket pocket. I bought it specifically for this purpose. You can definitely try in a store. There's some heft to it due to a large heat sink for unlimited 4K recording, but the size is ok (the EVF does stick out though).

With the JJC Z-O14-42 automatic cap (highly recommended to avoid having to take lens cap on and off) attached to the 12-32mm, it is 2.56 inch thick (ignoring EVF).

Note if you are considering the GX9 vs GX85 and the 12-32mm is a deciding factor, you can buy dekitted version of the 12-32mm for about $140 USD. For this particular lens only the dekitted makes sense, given the price gap vs a retail boxed one (which is about $300).

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Panasonic-Lumix-G-Vario-12-32mm-f-3-5-5-6-ASPH-Lens-New-No-Box/263510469605

If you don't want to keep the 12-60mm (although plenty of people feel that's a good lens), you can also sell it. Ebay you can probably sell for $200. B&H offers $150 USD for a like new copy (and is a low hassle way to sell in US), but not sure if Canada has stores that offers similar instant quotes.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/tradeIn?search=Panasonic+12-60mm+f%2F3.5-5.6+ASPH.+POWER+O.I.S.+M-4%2F3+Lens

That said, the GX85 two lens bundle is an excellent value. You have to decide if the new features of the GX9 make sense for you (the only negative I'm aware of in the GX9 is the 4K video crop is 1.25x vs 1.1x on the GX85).

https://mirrorlesscomparison.com/panasonic-vs-panasonic/gx9-vs-gx85-gx80/

JakeJY wrote:

I kind of researched this before when shopping my GX85. I don't think even the GM1/GM5 with any lens other than bodycap ones would be suitable for typical pants pockets. It won't be comfortable just because of the thickness of the lens. Something like a RX100 is considerably thinner.

The GX9 and GX85 other than the EVF hump is pretty close to the sizes of the E-P2 and GF1. With the 12-32mm they are at the limit of what a typical jacket pocket would fit.

So, I managed to get a hands-on with the GX85 (plus some other options). The comments are correct - the GX85 (and GX9) will be too big for pockets, even in the expanded way I was defining 'pocket' :-). The Sony RX100 line looks interested and could be a better option. So, this thread can now go back to the OP's original intent.  Soory for the short hijack.