Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)

Started 6 months ago | Discussions
Tony Beach Forum Pro • Posts: 11,967
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)

scokill wrote:

Tony Beach wrote:

scokill wrote:

tomnorth wrote:

Dynamic range is one area. The D4s is slightly better at low ISOs. My point wasn’t to put down the D5 or to argue that the D4s is the better camera, but rather to show that my decision to sell my D4s to buy a D850 is roughly equivalent to the decision to sell a D5 to buy a D850.

I don't want an argument either, just want to know the steps back. So low ISO DR. Anything else?

Resolution that can make a difference if you print large or crop; also size, price, viewfinder, and weight.

They said the D5 was a step back from the D4s....the D5 has increased resolution, so that would be a plus. Maybe you are comparing the D5 to D850?

Yes, you are right; my bad.

tomnorth
tomnorth Contributing Member • Posts: 993
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)
1

In Steve Perry’s excellent ebook on the Nikon AF system, he notes that there are things he prefers in the D4s AF system to the D5. But honestly, I’d love to have a D5 to shoot with. I still miss my D4s. It’s just that I couldn’t justify the purchase of the D850 without selling the D4s. I used to shoot with a D800 and a D4s. The D850 covered all my shooting situations nicely, so one of those two cameras had to go. The D4s was worth a lot more than my been-around-the-block D800, so I kept the D800 as a backup camera.

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T O Shooter Veteran Member • Posts: 9,678
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)

tomnorth wrote:

In Steve Perry’s excellent ebook on the Nikon AF system, he notes that there are things he prefers in the D4s AF system to the D5.

Same here.  Main reason I never moved to D5.  Newer is not always better.  Certainly to some of us.

But honestly, I’d love to have a D5 to shoot with. I still miss my D4s. It’s just that I couldn’t justify the purchase of the D850 without selling the D4s. I used to shoot with a D800 and a D4s. The D850 covered all my shooting situations nicely, so one of those two cameras had to go. The D4s was worth a lot more than my been-around-the-block D800, so I kept the D800 as a backup camera.

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He could be right, he could be wrong. I think he’s wrong but he says it in such a sincere way. You have to think he thinks he’s right. - Bob Dylan

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OP Lasse p Regular Member • Posts: 157
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)

SKersting66 wrote:

Lasse p wrote:

SKersting66 wrote:

In good light and with better lenses it's the D850, also in lower light when you can use longer SS's (not wildlife usually).
In poor light, faster action, or with slower lenses (i.e. f/6.3 zooms) the D5 is better. I don't really have any justification for the AF performance difference, but I've tested them side-by-side and it's notable/repeatable (I own both). And 12fps vs 9fps (with grip/battery) is enough to be significant at times... very significant vs 7fps w/o grip.
Often there is no real benefit to the D850... i.e. lower res output/use, ISO above ~1600, etc., but there's no real negative either (other than file size). The D850 will/should always have better color accuracy; not that you will always be able to tell.

Thank you for the insight. I have had times where the AF would have a hard time locking on birds. Especially the smaller subjects. But my most often encountered issue with the D850 is that it shows you all the imperfections in your technique. Which i am apparently not yet a master of. I am hoping the D5 is a little more forgiving. Do you find that the case?

Yes, the D5 is more forgiving... that's part of what I meant about there not really being a benefit to the D850 a lot of the time.
I don't really think the D850 is "more crop-able" than any other FF sensor most of the time... technique/situation/lens/settings often means you record the same image resolution (sharpness/detail), just with more pixels... which also means each pixel gets less light.
Yeah, you're left with more pixels remaining, but that doesn't really mean much.

Thank you for the insight, you take some incredible nature photos and i think your argument makes a lot of sense.

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Mirvin
Mirvin Junior Member • Posts: 47
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)
3

What did you mother tell you about "deals that seems to good to be true" ?????

SKersting66
SKersting66 Contributing Member • Posts: 777
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)
1

tomnorth wrote:

In Steve Perry’s excellent ebook on the Nikon AF system, he notes that there are things he prefers in the D4s AF system to the D5.

It's actually a difference between the MultiCam 3500 51pt system in previous bodies and the MultiCam 20k 153pt system that is in all of the latest models (D5/500/850).
While I preferred the tracking behavior of the 51pt system, I've adapted to the new system and find it somewhat better to have the same behaviors/settings in all of my cameras.

thomas2279f
thomas2279f Veteran Member • Posts: 3,232
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)

100% agree

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David Thomas

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thomas2279f
thomas2279f Veteran Member • Posts: 3,232
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)

This sounds a bit fishy a £6000 trade for a £3200 camera, does the camera - D5 come with a guarantee, is it a grey import ?, can you trial and test the camera out before trading in, could you take the camera to a local store to get it checked over ?.

Do you know the trader personally ? and if it goes to pot could you get your money back ?

I would rent a D5 out before deciding. ?

Would be very hesitant in exchanging on this basis as you describe - could it have one or more hidden faults or faults that the trader has not told you about.

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David Thomas

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thomas2279f
thomas2279f Veteran Member • Posts: 3,232
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)
1

D800 is an excellent backup camera and still generates great images even after this time since introduction back in 2012

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David Thomas

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thomas2279f
thomas2279f Veteran Member • Posts: 3,232
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)

The MB-D18 offers 9 fps and very good battery life when using the D5 battery....

Would be wary on this offer - trade £ for Trade £ - as described in my other post in this thread

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David Thomas

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thomas2279f
thomas2279f Veteran Member • Posts: 3,232
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)

agreed...

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David Thomas

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BWJunkie Regular Member • Posts: 207
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)

If it's a straight-up, do it without hesitation.  Then sell the D5, buy a D850 again, and use the extra cash on a lens or extra body.

Tim C.

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mais51
mais51 Senior Member • Posts: 2,688
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)

thomas2279f wrote:

This sounds a bit fishy a £6000 trade for a £3200 camera, does the camera - D5 come with a guarantee, is it a grey import ?, can you trial and test the camera out before trading in, could you take the camera to a local store to get it checked over ?.

Do you know the trader personally ? and if it goes to pot could you get your money back ?

I would rent a D5 out before deciding. ?

Would be very hesitant in exchanging on this basis as you describe - could it have one or more hidden faults or faults that the trader has not told you about.

My thought exactly - no,  attractive as it is I wouldn't do it unless the person is my brother or sister.

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billslatteryjr Contributing Member • Posts: 795
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)
1

KEH, and probably B&H & Adorama, will give you $2050 for an x+ D5 and $1847 for an x+ D850. That's where the current market is at. Used D5 prices are falling like a rock.

I gave some thought to selling my D5 to fund another D850 purchase. But wanted to keep the D5's extra stop of performance for high ISO low light indoor sports. Otherwise the D5 would be gone. The indoor winter sports are over and like last year the D5 will now sit in the cabinet waiting for next winter or some emergency. Heck I even loss $400 trying to replace the D5 with a Z6 because of the Z's high ISO numbers & some comments made by others. Figuring I could gradually work into the mirrorless stuff. But the Z is no action camera. Be careful who's advice you take.

Edit: If I could trade my D5 for a Sony a9 and 70-200mm f2.8 lens, they're within a couple hundred dollars of each other new. Myself and most others would take it in a heart beat. $6500 for a D5 in today's market is ridiculous. Nikon must be counting on purchasing agents that are ignorant of the market for their sales.

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larrywilson
larrywilson Veteran Member • Posts: 6,671
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)
1

Lasse p wrote:

larrywilson wrote:

With minimal cropping using the proper length lenses the d5 would be the choice. A better operational camera and more in focus shots with the d5. I would trade for the d5 and is not satisfied sell it and get you a new d850. If you don't extensively crop, you can make a large print with the d5. I have always found that extensive crops never make excellent large prints and generate noise. Forget about using the dx mode on the d850. I have shot with the d3s and d4 cameras and the quality of the output is easier to post process and images were beautiful if the capture was good.

Larry

Thanks Larry. I will take that into consideration.

Thanks, be sure to put more weight on people who have exactly owned a d4, d4s or d5 on opinions.  Experience is always better than opinions.  If a person is shooting birds or any wildlife at great distances and expecting the auto focus to work as well as taking an image with the proper lens and distance, it doesn't happen.  Extensive crops are never as good and minimal crops or full frame without cropping.

Think it over, try out the d5.  The d5 is meant for quick setting changes with more control exterior button and is meant for quick action whether sports or wildlife.

Larry

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PerfectPoms
PerfectPoms Senior Member • Posts: 1,871
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)
2

larrywilson wrote:

Thanks, be sure to put more weight on people who have exactly owned a d4, d4s or d5 on opinions. Experience is always better than opinions.

Larry

Hi Lasse.

Larry is correct: you should place much more trust in the opinions of people who have actually used BOTH the D5 and D850 to most accurately be able to offer opinions about the relative merits of both cameras.

I think I've taken about 100,000 shots with my two D850's. They USUALLY disappoint me. I think I've taken 600,000 or 700,000 shots with my 3 D5s. (I just bought my third one used for $3,315 (US) (with 536,000 shots on the shutter!!)

Each camera has very different strengths and weaknesses; advantages and disadvantages. Don't place too much importance on the opinion of someone who is using the camera for a different purpose than yours.

I think you should spend considerable time digesting this great article: http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html#BEST_Wildlife_Nikon

Brad shares my preference for the D5 over the D850 - but your preference may depend on whether you are shooting in good light or low light, and on the speed of the birds you are trying to track.

So let me say, in summary, you are being offered a GREAT deal. I've been watching used prices on D5s VERY carefully for the past year, and they HAVE dropped by almost a thousand dollars in that time - BUT - the D5 STILL commands a high used price. You're still at least $1,500 ahead with a D5 to sell, rather than selling a used D850 (at least when selling on local classifieds: the buying price for used D5s by KEH I think someone mentioned is interesting: I think the D5 is FINALLY starting to get sold used in more than tiny numbers in anticipation of the D6 announcement, and because of the mirrorless cameras and availability of the D850.)

I'd jump all over this trade - if I were you.

Why don't I like my D850's nearly as much as my D5s? I'm almost ALWAYS disappointed when I use my D850's because they are absolutely NOT as forgiving as the D5. The focus speed and tracking ability of the D850 is significantly poorer than the D5 (for my use with my subjects), and the D850 just seems to make out of focus images seem MORE out of focus than those shots taken with the D5. This may be partly because zooming in to 1 to 1 on the D850 gets you so much 'closer,' but the D850 just seems to demand better technique, and I think it clearly punishes camera shake more severely, and I'm convinced I need higher shutter speed on my D850 to avoid the TINY detail of very small hairs on my puppies being smeared across more than one pixel when there is movement of the hair on my puppies in photos.

But this goes all the way back to the D2x vs D2hs for me. I HATED my D2x, but LOVED my D2hs (which I took over a million photos with). It's just fairly obvious that the larger pixels are more 'forgiving.'

So why should you grab the D5? It's got a bunch of strengths over the D850: faster fps, better at higher ISO, a solid body that will last forever, and, for me, better, faster AF.

One major complaint about the D5 is the lower dynamic range at base ISO compared to the D850. It's for this reason that I dragged my D850's out of mothballs this week to use them for the first time in many months, because I've finally been able to shoot in LOTS of light. (This winter here in Toronto Canada has been VERY cloudy.)

Now, for my subjects: see http://www.pbase.com/billmcintyre - I find that I need a shutter speed of 1/1,600 to stop motion blur when my dogs are moving - so as a result, I usually need fairly high ISO - unless my dogs are in direct sunlight, with the sun at my back. So I almost always favor the D5 over the D850.

In my recent tests this week using the D850 - I got nice results - IF my dogs were NOT moving. I was shooting at ISO 100 to 200. Tons of light. But when there is less light available, and the fur on my dogs is moving 'across the sensor' - the results with the D850 suffer considerably.

And for you, I think the results with moving birds may be similar. D850 AF just won't be as good as the D5. And the D5 will be more forgiving, I think, with the 200-500 lens.

If you do go ahead with the trade - please come back here later and let us know how you find the comparison with the shots you get with the 'new' D5.

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PK24X36NOW Senior Member • Posts: 1,984
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)

Fullframer wrote:

Dyun27 wrote:

Lasse p wrote:

So i got offered to trade my Nikon D850 for a Nikon D5. No money involved, just a straight up trade. Both about the same age and with the same amount of shutter actions.

A new D5 = $6,496.00

A new D850 = $3,096.00

What kind of crazy maniac wants to do a straight trade going from a D5 to a D850 with no money involved for the difference in price? Odd. Is there something wrong with the D5?

Agreed on that... I wonder if something is amiss with the D5. If not, the OP should go for it before D5 owner realizes their mistake.

The D850 is perfectly fine for wildlife, unless you want the extra FPS. In that case it's cheap to buy the grip + batteries to speed up the FPS of the D850, or go with a D500 which has 10FPS, AF points covering the entire viewfinder, and about 2 megapixels more than the D850 in crop mode.

The D5 offers lower resolution, perhaps slightly better AF algorithm (maybe) and slightly better high ISO performance. Unless you shoot mostly in low light and need the improved high ISO performance, stick with the D850.

Agreed. For birding I would rather have D850, way more pixels to crop in, same autofocus module as the D5, although real world tests show D5 is still slightly better.

I get the feeling that the "tests" compare the D850 with the stock battery sans grip. I think with the grip and D5 battery, it will probably gain that small performance difference back (or maybe the small performance difference exists because the D850 is being a bit more precise, as it should be, with the additional resolution).

I'd suggest the OP buy the grip, D5 batteries and charger, and then you've got plenty of frame rate AND all that resolution. The additional few fps isn't going to matter much.

Some might say "Trade for the D5, sell the D5, buy a new or lightly used D850 and use the profit to get more gear." Assuming there's nothing wrong with the D5, sounds like a pretty good deal too!

larrywilson
larrywilson Veteran Member • Posts: 6,671
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)

Good write up comparing the d5 with the d850.  You have to own a single digit professional gripped camera such as the d4, d4s or d5 to appreciate them.

I would try out the d5 and if it works don't hesitate, just do the trade.

Larry

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billslatteryjr Contributing Member • Posts: 795
Re: Changing out the D850 with a D5. Would you do it? (Wildlife)

Good write up Bill. You're right about the asking prices. Even KEH has them $1K apart. Makes one wonder why KEH's buying prices are so close. My guess is that they're afraid of being stuck with a large inventory of D5s once the rumored soon to be released D6 comes out.

Having had a good many dogs in my lifetime I can see where photographing dogs, especially pomeranian puppies with their hair and rapid playful movements, would take a much higher shutter speed than photographing people and the better focusing abilities of the D5 would become really evident. I've often shot the D5 & D850 side by side at a game and the speed of the D5 really comes through. Not that it gets me that many more shots than the D850 that I'd give up the extra MPs. For you it's different. Learned something new that I should of realized without being told.

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