Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?

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hendriximages
hendriximages Regular Member • Posts: 164
Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?
1

Hello,

Got myself a Fuji X-E3 to have an interchangeable lens camera of comparable compactness to my X100F but was quite disappointed to discover that the X-E2's  JPEG sharpening algorithm seems to be way more aggressive (also comparing to my X-Pro2 & X-T2 which I'd sold previously):

Fuji X-E3's aggressive JPEG sharpening, see red arrows!

To be fair, you only see this when enlarging JPEG's real BIG - probably not many are doing that (and, obviously RAW´s are not affected). But I do mainly use JPEG´s for printing big, coz I love ACROS's tonality dependent grain (not available when post processing RAW files)

So I wanted to know if any of youse have been confronted with this phenomenon?

Traded in my X-E3 for an X-H1, which don't demonstrate such JPEG sharpening artifacts. If interested please head over to my website (link below) for the full story!

Many thanks & best regards,

Hendrik

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Greybeard2017
Greybeard2017 Contributing Member • Posts: 887
Re: Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?
2

hendriximages wrote:

Hello,

Got myself a Fuji X-E3 to have an interchangeable lens camera of comparable compactness to my X100F but was quite disappointed to discover that the X-E2's JPEG sharpening algorithm seems to be way more aggressive (also comparing to my X-Pro2 & X-T2 which I'd sold previously):

Fuji X-E3's aggressive JPEG sharpening, see red arrows!

To be fair, you only see this when enlarging JPEG's real BIG - probably not many are doing that (and, obviously RAW´s are not affected). But I do mainly use JPEG´s for printing big, coz I love ACROS's tonality dependent grain (not available when post processing RAW files)

So I wanted to know if any of youse have been confronted with this phenomenon?

Traded in my X-E3 for an X-H1, which don't demonstrate such JPEG sharpening artifacts. If interested please head over to my website (link below) for the full story!

Many thanks & best regards,

Hendrik

How about posting the original SOOC jpg so that we can see what you mean?

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gsz Regular Member • Posts: 114
Re: Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?

Hi,

On your website you said: "FYI y’all gonna miss out on this grain enhancement if you try to replicate ACROS via presets after conversion in Lightroom or other RAW converters."

Just for curiosity: have you tried Capture1 v12 which has film sim provided by Fuji (in theory) as well? (I know not all camera models are supported for film sim in C1).

hendriximages
OP hendriximages Regular Member • Posts: 164
Re: Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?
1

Greybeard2017 wrote:

hendriximages wrote:

Hello,

Got myself a Fuji X-E3 to have an interchangeable lens camera of comparable compactness to my X100F but was quite disappointed to discover that the X-E2's JPEG sharpening algorithm seems to be way more aggressive (also comparing to my X-Pro2 & X-T2 which I'd sold previously):

Fuji X-E3's aggressive JPEG sharpening, see red arrows!

To be fair, you only see this when enlarging JPEG's real BIG - probably not many are doing that (and, obviously RAW´s are not affected). But I do mainly use JPEG´s for printing big, coz I love ACROS's tonality dependent grain (not available when post processing RAW files)

So I wanted to know if any of youse have been confronted with this phenomenon?

Traded in my X-E3 for an X-H1, which don't demonstrate such JPEG sharpening artifacts. If interested please head over to my website (link below) for the full story!

Many thanks & best regards,

Hendrik

How about posting the original SOOC jpg so that we can see what you mean?

here it is

Fuji X-E3 original SOOC image, ©2019 Hendrik Hazeu, all rights reserved

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hendriximages
OP hendriximages Regular Member • Posts: 164
Re: Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?

gsz wrote:

Hi,

On your website you said: "FYI y’all gonna miss out on this grain enhancement if you try to replicate ACROS via presets after conversion in Lightroom or other RAW converters."

Just for curiosity: have you tried Capture1 v12 which has film sim provided by Fuji (in theory) as well? (I know not all camera models are supported for film sim in C1).

hi gsz,

Yes I did (imported RAF > Base Characteristics > Curve > selected "Fujifilm ACROS +R FILTER") ... it has the same tonality as the JPEG but doesn't have the grain I get from the in camera processing! As far as I've understood from Fuji you only get that via the in camera X-Processor Pro

But maybe I missed something?

Cheers

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Sal Baker Forum Pro • Posts: 11,490
Re: Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?

hendriximages wrote:

Hello,

Got myself a Fuji X-E3 to have an interchangeable lens camera of comparable compactness to my X100F but was quite disappointed to discover that the X-E2's JPEG sharpening algorithm seems to be way more aggressive (also comparing to my X-Pro2 & X-T2 which I'd sold previously):

Fuji X-E3's aggressive JPEG sharpening, see red arrows!

To be fair, you only see this when enlarging JPEG's real BIG - probably not many are doing that (and, obviously RAW´s are not affected). But I do mainly use JPEG´s for printing big, coz I love ACROS's tonality dependent grain (not available when post processing RAW files)

So I wanted to know if any of youse have been confronted with this phenomenon?

Traded in my X-E3 for an X-H1, which don't demonstrate such JPEG sharpening artifacts. If interested please head over to my website (link below) for the full story!

Many thanks & best regards,

Hendrik

Can't you just reduce the jpeg sharpening setting in the camera? The default settings are arbitrary.

Sal

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hendriximages
OP hendriximages Regular Member • Posts: 164
Re: Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?

Sal Baker wrote:

hendriximages wrote:

Hello,

Got myself a Fuji X-E3 to have an interchangeable lens camera of comparable compactness to my X100F but was quite disappointed to discover that the X-E2's JPEG sharpening algorithm seems to be way more aggressive (also comparing to my X-Pro2 & X-T2 which I'd sold previously):

Fuji X-E3's aggressive JPEG sharpening, see red arrows!

To be fair, you only see this when enlarging JPEG's real BIG - probably not many are doing that (and, obviously RAW´s are not affected). But I do mainly use JPEG´s for printing big, coz I love ACROS's tonality dependent grain (not available when post processing RAW files)

So I wanted to know if any of youse have been confronted with this phenomenon?

Traded in my X-E3 for an X-H1, which don't demonstrate such JPEG sharpening artifacts. If interested please head over to my website (link below) for the full story!

Many thanks & best regards,

Hendrik

Can't you just reduce the jpeg sharpening setting in the camera? The default settings are arbitrary.

Sal

hi Sal

tried that, even at -4 sharpening the artifacts are still there and the image gets kinda mushy , please check out my website to see the example!

thanks & cheers, Hendrik

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hendriximages
OP hendriximages Regular Member • Posts: 164
Re: X-E3's aggressive JPEG sharpening - even minimum setting don't help ...

hendriximages wrote:

Hello,

Got myself a Fuji X-E3 to have an interchangeable lens camera of comparable compactness to my X100F but was quite disappointed to discover that the X-E2's JPEG sharpening algorithm seems to be way more aggressive (also comparing to my X-Pro2 & X-T2 which I'd sold previously):

Fuji X-E3's aggressive JPEG sharpening, see red arrows!

To be fair, you only see this when enlarging JPEG's real BIG - probably not many are doing that (and, obviously RAW´s are not affected). But I do mainly use JPEG´s for printing big, coz I love ACROS's tonality dependent grain (not available when post processing RAW files)

So I wanted to know if any of youse have been confronted with this phenomenon?

Traded in my X-E3 for an X-H1, which don't demonstrate such JPEG sharpening artifacts. If interested please head over to my website (link below) for the full story!

Many thanks & best regards,

Hendrik

Unfortunately even dialing the JPEG sharpening down to minimum setting of -4 don't really help. The artifacts are still visible and the whole image gets mushy. A real pity coz otherwise the X-E2's a great compact camera, just not for JPEG's:

Even with minimum (-4) JPEG sharpening the X-E3's artifacts are still visible ...

I wish Fuji would have communicated the more aggressive JPEG sharpening - would've saved me some trouble & money ...

Hope this helps those of you contemplating buying an X-E3. If you're not interested in JPEG's it's a fantastic compact camera with great RAW file output!

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Greybeard2017
Greybeard2017 Contributing Member • Posts: 887
Re: Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?

hendriximages wrote:

Greybeard2017 wrote:

hendriximages wrote:

Hello,

Got myself a Fuji X-E3 to have an interchangeable lens camera of comparable compactness to my X100F but was quite disappointed to discover that the X-E2's JPEG sharpening algorithm seems to be way more aggressive (also comparing to my X-Pro2 & X-T2 which I'd sold previously):

Fuji X-E3's aggressive JPEG sharpening, see red arrows!

To be fair, you only see this when enlarging JPEG's real BIG - probably not many are doing that (and, obviously RAW´s are not affected). But I do mainly use JPEG´s for printing big, coz I love ACROS's tonality dependent grain (not available when post processing RAW files)

So I wanted to know if any of youse have been confronted with this phenomenon?

Traded in my X-E3 for an X-H1, which don't demonstrate such JPEG sharpening artifacts. If interested please head over to my website (link below) for the full story!

Many thanks & best regards,

Hendrik

How about posting the original SOOC jpg so that we can see what you mean?

here it is

Fuji X-E3 original SOOC image, ©2019 Hendrik Hazeu, all rights reserved

Thanks - although this has been through Photoshop - even if you haven't actually done any processing. I wonder if you get the same with an actual jpeg from the camera?

I also notice the camera has a blur warning for this image - presumably because of the slow shutter speed.

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hendriximages
OP hendriximages Regular Member • Posts: 164
Re: Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?

Greybeard2017 wrote:

hendriximages wrote:

Greybeard2017 wrote:

hendriximages wrote:

Hello,

Got myself a Fuji X-E3 to have an interchangeable lens camera of comparable compactness to my X100F but was quite disappointed to discover that the X-E2's JPEG sharpening algorithm seems to be way more aggressive (also comparing to my X-Pro2 & X-T2 which I'd sold previously):

Fuji X-E3's aggressive JPEG sharpening, see red arrows!

To be fair, you only see this when enlarging JPEG's real BIG - probably not many are doing that (and, obviously RAW´s are not affected). But I do mainly use JPEG´s for printing big, coz I love ACROS's tonality dependent grain (not available when post processing RAW files)

So I wanted to know if any of youse have been confronted with this phenomenon?

Traded in my X-E3 for an X-H1, which don't demonstrate such JPEG sharpening artifacts. If interested please head over to my website (link below) for the full story!

Many thanks & best regards,

Hendrik

How about posting the original SOOC jpg so that we can see what you mean?

here it is

Fuji X-E3 original SOOC image, ©2019 Hendrik Hazeu, all rights reserved

Thanks - although this has been through Photoshop - even if you haven't actually done any processing. I wonder if you get the same with an actual jpeg from the camera?

I also notice the camera has a blur warning for this image - presumably because of the slow shutter speed.

hi Greybeard2017,

yes image was taken at 1/25sec, braced against a pillar and as you can see in the text on the building on the left, I seemed to have managed to hold the camera steady enough to prevent any motion blur

Regarding "Photoshop" ... ? strange, coz this is actually the JPEG out of camera. it only passed thru Photo Mechanic to update the metadata and was uploaded into my Lightroom catalog w/o any develop settings (i.e. no processing). I'm curious as to where you'd seen that it passed thru Photoshop (at least I didn't find any reference using Phil Harvey's EXIF reader)?

Thanks & best regards

Hendrik

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celestialemissary
celestialemissary Contributing Member • Posts: 670
Re: Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?

Yeah this does look bad. This is acros ? Acros adds grain/noise to the image so it could be that combination with a bit higher ISO. 
Which NR option do you use ?
Can you try regular BW conversion in camera if you still have raw file

Heinz Senior Member • Posts: 1,714
Re: Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?
2

I haven't found a proper comparison of the same image of X-H1 and X-E3 on your site. X-E3 image is taken at night, X-H1 at daytime. Then you compare to the Nikon D850. For me this comparison is rather pointless.

Greybeard2017
Greybeard2017 Contributing Member • Posts: 887
Re: Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?

hendriximages wrote:

Greybeard2017 wrote:

hendriximages wrote:

Greybeard2017 wrote:

hendriximages wrote:

Hello,

Got myself a Fuji X-E3 to have an interchangeable lens camera of comparable compactness to my X100F but was quite disappointed to discover that the X-E2's JPEG sharpening algorithm seems to be way more aggressive (also comparing to my X-Pro2 & X-T2 which I'd sold previously):

Fuji X-E3's aggressive JPEG sharpening, see red arrows!

To be fair, you only see this when enlarging JPEG's real BIG - probably not many are doing that (and, obviously RAW´s are not affected). But I do mainly use JPEG´s for printing big, coz I love ACROS's tonality dependent grain (not available when post processing RAW files)

So I wanted to know if any of youse have been confronted with this phenomenon?

Traded in my X-E3 for an X-H1, which don't demonstrate such JPEG sharpening artifacts. If interested please head over to my website (link below) for the full story!

Many thanks & best regards,

Hendrik

How about posting the original SOOC jpg so that we can see what you mean?

here it is

Fuji X-E3 original SOOC image, ©2019 Hendrik Hazeu, all rights reserved

Thanks - although this has been through Photoshop - even if you haven't actually done any processing. I wonder if you get the same with an actual jpeg from the camera?

I also notice the camera has a blur warning for this image - presumably because of the slow shutter speed.

hi Greybeard2017,

yes image was taken at 1/25sec, braced against a pillar and as you can see in the text on the building on the left, I seemed to have managed to hold the camera steady enough to prevent any motion blur

Regarding "Photoshop" ... ? strange, coz this is actually the JPEG out of camera. it only passed thru Photo Mechanic to update the metadata and was uploaded into my Lightroom catalog w/o any develop settings (i.e. no processing). I'm curious as to where you'd seen that it passed thru Photoshop (at least I didn't find any reference using Phil Harvey's EXIF reader)?

Thanks & best regards

Hendrik

OK - I was using ExifTool and saw the metadata updates in the Photoshop and XMP-Photoshop groups. Presumably that's where Photo Mechanic puts some of your updates.

I think the photo actually looks quite good at a normal magnification - I would have been pleased with it and I doubt Acros particularly is designed to be examined at 200% on a high resolution screen.

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hendriximages
OP hendriximages Regular Member • Posts: 164
Re: Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?

celestialemissary wrote:

Yeah this does look bad. This is acros ? Acros adds grain/noise to the image so it could be that combination with a bit higher ISO.
Which NR option do you use ?
Can you try regular BW conversion in camera if you still have raw file

hi

yep ACROS, I used -2 noise reduction, ISO was 1600 - not too high for X-Trans acc. my past experience

I´ll try regular BW conversion though and post result back here, thanks for the tip!

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celestialemissary
celestialemissary Contributing Member • Posts: 670
Re: Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?

hendriximages wrote:

celestialemissary wrote:

Yeah this does look bad. This is acros ? Acros adds grain/noise to the image so it could be that combination with a bit higher ISO.
Which NR option do you use ?
Can you try regular BW conversion in camera if you still have raw file

hi

yep ACROS, I used -2 noise reduction, ISO was 1600 - not too high for X-Trans acc. my past experience

I´ll try regular BW conversion though and post result back here, thanks for the tip!

You could try -4 on NR since acros is about that "organic" grain
Some people put camera on ISO6400 (they could use lower ISO) because of the look it gives to the acros film simulation. 
I don't think that is the problem with X-E3 
Only Fuji bayer cameras like X-T100 have different jpgs (warmer shadows)

hendriximages
OP hendriximages Regular Member • Posts: 164
Re: Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?

Greybeard2017 wrote:

hendriximages wrote:

Greybeard2017 wrote:

hendriximages wrote:

Greybeard2017 wrote:

hendriximages wrote:

Hello,

Got myself a Fuji X-E3 to have an interchangeable lens camera of comparable compactness to my X100F but was quite disappointed to discover that the X-E2's JPEG sharpening algorithm seems to be way more aggressive (also comparing to my X-Pro2 & X-T2 which I'd sold previously):

Fuji X-E3's aggressive JPEG sharpening, see red arrows!

To be fair, you only see this when enlarging JPEG's real BIG - probably not many are doing that (and, obviously RAW´s are not affected). But I do mainly use JPEG´s for printing big, coz I love ACROS's tonality dependent grain (not available when post processing RAW files)

So I wanted to know if any of youse have been confronted with this phenomenon?

Traded in my X-E3 for an X-H1, which don't demonstrate such JPEG sharpening artifacts. If interested please head over to my website (link below) for the full story!

Many thanks & best regards,

Hendrik

How about posting the original SOOC jpg so that we can see what you mean?

here it is

Fuji X-E3 original SOOC image, ©2019 Hendrik Hazeu, all rights reserved

Thanks - although this has been through Photoshop - even if you haven't actually done any processing. I wonder if you get the same with an actual jpeg from the camera?

I also notice the camera has a blur warning for this image - presumably because of the slow shutter speed.

hi Greybeard2017,

yes image was taken at 1/25sec, braced against a pillar and as you can see in the text on the building on the left, I seemed to have managed to hold the camera steady enough to prevent any motion blur

Regarding "Photoshop" ... ? strange, coz this is actually the JPEG out of camera. it only passed thru Photo Mechanic to update the metadata and was uploaded into my Lightroom catalog w/o any develop settings (i.e. no processing). I'm curious as to where you'd seen that it passed thru Photoshop (at least I didn't find any reference using Phil Harvey's EXIF reader)?

Thanks & best regards

Hendrik

OK - I was using ExifTool and saw the metadata updates in the Photoshop and XMP-Photoshop groups. Presumably that's where Photo Mechanic puts some of your updates.

I think the photo actually looks quite good at a normal magnification - I would have been pleased with it and I doubt Acros particularly is designed to be examined at 200% on a high resolution screen.

hi Greybeard2017,

thanks for your info - you're probably right - PM (or Lightroom) probably put stuff into the EXIF, even w/o processing

agree with your 2nd statement, for normal use this probably ain't an issue, in fact when printing up to A3 (approx. 90% enlargement) you have to look very closely (and know what to look for) to see anything

I only discovered it because I was printing an A4 test strip for an A1 size print I wanted to order over internet. When I did that a couple weeks ago for an X100F image (also ACROS, JPEG sharpening 0) I didn't have any issue ...

I also found out that this phenomenon seems to occur more with wide angle lenses as they have a less abrupt sharpness fall off outside the focal plane and therefore small farther away details remain more visible ...

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OP hendriximages Regular Member • Posts: 164
Re: Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?

Heinz wrote:

I haven't found a proper comparison of the same image of X-H1 and X-E3 on your site. X-E3 image is taken at night, X-H1 at daytime. Then you compare to the Nikon D850. For me this comparison is rather pointless.

dear Heinz,

fair point - didn't always have all cameras with me, normally when casually walking around only my Fuji´s are with me coz FF DSLR´s are a pain to carry Then again the lens is never the same either, so I thought it's just about how image elements in contrast render (independent of time, camera model)

as soon as I have time I´ll try a 1:1 comparison ...

thanks & cheers

Hendrik

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ikaika777 Senior Member • Posts: 2,121
Re: Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?

hendriximages wrote:

Hello,

Got myself a Fuji X-E3 to have an interchangeable lens camera of comparable compactness to my X100F but was quite disappointed to discover that the X-E2's JPEG sharpening algorithm seems to be way more aggressive (also comparing to my X-Pro2 & X-T2 which I'd sold previously):

Fuji X-E3's aggressive JPEG sharpening, see red arrows!

To be fair, you only see this when enlarging JPEG's real BIG - probably not many are doing that (and, obviously RAW´s are not affected). But I do mainly use JPEG´s for printing big, coz I love ACROS's tonality dependent grain (not available when post processing RAW files)

So I wanted to know if any of youse have been confronted with this phenomenon?

Traded in my X-E3 for an X-H1, which don't demonstrate such JPEG sharpening artifacts. If interested please head over to my website (link below) for the full story!

Many thanks & best regards,

Hendrik

I can tell you this, I have an X-E3 and I shoot 97% in B&W set for jpeg and raw using Acros and I set my in camera jpeg sharpness to +2 and I don’t get what you got. I think the problem you got had to do with a mixture of something far away, small, and low light against the sky as the background. I’ve never heard that Fuji tweaked the sharpness on the X-E3, if they did I wouldn’t have it set for +2.

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After all is said and done and your photo is hanging on the wall, no one is going to know or care what camera, lens, or what post processing you used. All they care about is if the image moves them.

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hendriximages
OP hendriximages Regular Member • Posts: 164
Re: Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?

celestialemissary wrote:

hendriximages wrote:

celestialemissary wrote:

Yeah this does look bad. This is acros ? Acros adds grain/noise to the image so it could be that combination with a bit higher ISO.
Which NR option do you use ?
Can you try regular BW conversion in camera if you still have raw file

hi

yep ACROS, I used -2 noise reduction, ISO was 1600 - not too high for X-Trans acc. my past experience

I´ll try regular BW conversion though and post result back here, thanks for the tip!

You could try -4 on NR since acros is about that "organic" grain
Some people put camera on ISO6400 (they could use lower ISO) because of the look it gives to the acros film simulation.
I don't think that is the problem with X-E3
Only Fuji bayer cameras like X-T100 have different jpgs (warmer shadows)

hi

see below, tried BW-R conversion with NR-4, unfortunately still visible ...

X-E3, BW-R simulation, 0 Sharpening, -4 Noise Reduction

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hendriximages
OP hendriximages Regular Member • Posts: 164
Re: Fuji's consumer grade cameras got more aggressive JPEG sharpening?

ikaika777 wrote:

hendriximages wrote:

Hello,

Got myself a Fuji X-E3 to have an interchangeable lens camera of comparable compactness to my X100F but was quite disappointed to discover that the X-E2's JPEG sharpening algorithm seems to be way more aggressive (also comparing to my X-Pro2 & X-T2 which I'd sold previously):

Fuji X-E3's aggressive JPEG sharpening, see red arrows!

To be fair, you only see this when enlarging JPEG's real BIG - probably not many are doing that (and, obviously RAW´s are not affected). But I do mainly use JPEG´s for printing big, coz I love ACROS's tonality dependent grain (not available when post processing RAW files)

So I wanted to know if any of youse have been confronted with this phenomenon?

Traded in my X-E3 for an X-H1, which don't demonstrate such JPEG sharpening artifacts. If interested please head over to my website (link below) for the full story!

Many thanks & best regards,

Hendrik

I can tell you this, I have an X-E3 and I shoot 97% in B&W set for jpeg and raw using Acros and I set my in camera jpeg sharpness to +2 and I don’t get what you got. I think the problem you got had to do with a mixture of something far away, small, and low light against the sky as the background. I’ve never heard that Fuji tweaked the sharpness on the X-E3, if they did I wouldn’t have it set for +2.

hi

your're right this is only visible with small farther away details against even backgrounds, actually seems to occur more on wide-angle lenses (less abrupt sharpness fall-off outside focal plane), especially at larger apertures

It's just not OK for me ... anyway I´ve sent a request to Fuji's customer service asking them whether the X-E3's parameters are different to the other X-Trans III sensor cameras. will keep y'all posted

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Where Shadows Fall, There's Light !

 hendriximages's gear list:hendriximages's gear list
Fujifilm X-Pro2 Fujifilm X-H1 Fujifilm GFX 50R Fujifilm XF 18mm F2 R Fujifilm XF 35mm F1.4 R +6 more
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