Robin Wong's 12-200 review is out

Started 10 months ago | Discussions
Auf Reisen Contributing Member • Posts: 652
Re: Robin Wong's 12-200 review is out

HHlim18 wrote:

Auf Reisen wrote:

HHlim18 wrote:

MShot wrote:

I like a consumer 12-100, weather sealed, $600 for travel. A little bigger than the 14-150 but f/2.8 - 4. Don't often go past 100mm when I travel but use 12mm. 12-100 is too big/heavy for me to carry for a long time.

You're looking for a small light weight 12-100mm f2.8-4 consumer lens that cost $600? Olympus will never release one because it kill sales of their Pro 12-100mm f4. Panasonic too because leica 12-60mm f2.8-4. In your perfect world we can have best of all worlds but cons of none, however we aren't in it. Have a more realistic expectation or disappointment will be your BFF.

The two Panasonic 12-60s co-exist side by side, so I don't really see a problem with it. It doesn't have to match the IQ, build quality, or close focusing abilities of the 12-100 pro. Just be slightly better than the 14-150 and weather-sealed.

Probably not for 600, though.

You seems to ignore kit version of 12-60mm isn't f2.8-4. Regardless how much you wanted it, 12-100mm f2.8-4 will never be a cheap consumer lens. This is because on spec sheet at least it beats existing premiums lens. Enjoy your time with your BFF.

Again, didn't see they wanted it super fast. 3.5-5.6 should be much more sensible.

Not sure what your last sentence is supposed to mean.

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gary0319
gary0319 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,712
Olympus pricing reflects sales volume reality.

jwilliams wrote:

JakeJY wrote:

Mark Ransom wrote:

String wrote:

Mark Ransom wrote:

Just curious, what's your definition of a consumer grade price? Almost $1000 doesn't really fit my definition.

For what this lens is, a retail price of $900 seems quite reasonable especially considering the next step up would only get you out to 100mm (with the 12-100Pro). It's 45% more expensive. If you don't think so, then there are cheaper options available that are almost always on sale... this one will be too eventually.

My question wasn't about value for money, it was about absolute prices. Again I think anything approaching $1000 puts it out of "consumer" territory.

For comparison, I have a Sigma 18-300 for my Pentax APS-C. It has the same 16.7x zoom range as the 12-200. List price is $579 and I picked it up for $400.

This was discussed in a previous thread, but third party prices are not comparable to first party. It's true that the third party list prices of consumer lenses in this zoom range tend to be around $600-650, but that's third party.

You can see an example in MFT superzoom of the Tamron 14-150 at $400, while the Olympus is $600. First party being 1.5x the price.

Multiply the $600*1.5 = $900, exactly the same difference.

Why does the Oly command a premium over the Tamron? Is it better? If not, then $600 is a fair price for that type of lens. m43 is an open standard so there is no proprietary knowledge Oly has.

I guess the positive we can take away is that we can pray Tamron will eventually makes a 12-200 and it will be priced at $600.

Unfortunately that is not likely as there is almost zero 3rd party lens development going on for m43. That Tamron lens was one of the early 3rd party m43 lenses before lens manufacturers realized there wasn't going to be the sales volume to support development specifically for m43.

I think you have hit on the actual reason that Olympus lenses (and most everything else, Olympus) is more expensive. The projected sales volume in Olympus Land for anything is low when compared to other brands. That’s part of the reason for the $3K E-M1X price.

I have come to realize that enjoying the benefits of the Olympus system, kind of takes one out of the Walmart or Best Buy “consumer” photography pricing, for the most part. There are no $399 or $499 CaNikon 2 lens kits available in Olympus Land, even an E-M10 III with the 14-42 EZ and the 40-150 consumer grade zooms will set you back about $750.

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Okapi001 Senior Member • Posts: 4,958
Re: Olympus pricing reflects sales volume reality.

gary0319 wrote:

I have come to realize that enjoying the benefits of the Olympus system, kind of takes one out of the Walmart or Best Buy “consumer” photography pricing, for the most part. There are no $399 or $499 CaNikon 2 lens kits available in Olympus Land, even an E-M10 III with the 14-42 EZ and the 40-150 consumer grade zooms will set you back about $750.

You can get the E-M10 II + those two zooms for 460 GBP, which is $610.

But you are right, Olympus was never in his history a budget brand, it was always somewhat more expensive than some competition.

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gary0319
gary0319 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,712
Re: In Hiding ...

jwilliams wrote:

Antal I Kozma wrote:

jwilliams wrote:

Adrian Tung wrote:

https://blog.mingthein.com/2019/02/27/review-the-2019-olympus-zd-12-200-f3-5-6-3/

Looks like a decent super-zoom for its price, but not my cup of tea.

Typical superzoom. Aperture closes down real fast. IQ at long end is just so so.

At $899 they'd have to have a 50% off sale to even get me to think about it. Waay overpriced for its capabilities.

Oly continues to create new cameras and lenses I have absolutely no interest in. Batting 100% there.

How do you dare to say these things............... ? You will be crucified no doubt....... You heretic and traitor of the Olympus faithful............

Aperture closing down very fast???? IQ at the long end is not up to snuff?????? Man, those things do not matter, this lens is another Olympus masterpiece...... Photographers need long super zooms with slow aperture and other optical compromises.......

Anyhow, you should get a wig, a fake moustache and use strong make-up from here on because someone might get you on the street............

Best, AIK

Don't worry I'm already in hiding. Don't need a fake mustache as I shaved my real one off so now nobody can tell it is me.

Funny thing is I probably own more Oly gear than 99% of those posting here, but I've just never been one for cults.

Hmmmm... I come to believe that being an Olympus shooter makes one a member of a cult, simply by association. Welcome to the club/cult..

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gary0319
gary0319 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,712
Re: Olympus pricing reflects sales volume reality.

Okapi001 wrote:

gary0319 wrote:

I have come to realize that enjoying the benefits of the Olympus system, kind of takes one out of the Walmart or Best Buy “consumer” photography pricing, for the most part. There are no $399 or $499 CaNikon 2 lens kits available in Olympus Land, even an E-M10 III with the 14-42 EZ and the 40-150 consumer grade zooms will set you back about $750.

You can get the E-M10 II + those two zooms for 460 GBP, which is $610.

Good deal, I just used the B&H US pricing for the E-M10 III (being the current model). I actually really enjoy being out for a day with my E-M10 II and the 14-150 zoom, I always come home with some keepers.

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gary0319
gary0319 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,712
Re: I would say the 12-100 Pro is pretty good though.

Raist3d wrote:

jwilliams wrote:

Adrian Tung wrote:

https://blog.mingthein.com/2019/02/27/review-the-2019-olympus-zd-12-200-f3-5-6-3/

Looks like a decent super-zoom for its price, but not my cup of tea.

Typical superzoom. Aperture closes down real fast. IQ at long end is just so so.

At $899 they'd have to have a 50% off sale to even get me to think about it. Waay overpriced for its capabilities.

Oly continues to create new cameras and lenses I have absolutely no interest in. Batting 100% there.

I agree I am not super thrilled by this zoom. It's good for the class it's in but still not that thrilled with the IQ in the end compared with the better lenses.

But the 12-100 Pro lens is pretty good, which is also very surprising.

Agree, in fact I think it is easily the equal to my 12-49 Pro when the 12-40 is stopped down to f/4. And, maybe even a tad better If I need to go to f/2.8 on the 12-40.

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rsf3127 Regular Member • Posts: 338
Even taking into account that Robin is a master...
1

...I believe that having 24-400mm equiv in one lens with that IQ is a wonder.

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gary0319
gary0319 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,712
Re: Robin Wong's 12-200 review is out

Auf Reisen wrote:

The problem with Robin is that he's a bloody magician that makes even the 75-300 sing. And that is a lens that I find rather so-so. So of course the pictures he provides look great, I'm not sure how much that tells me about the lenses' capabilities in lesser hands.

Hmmmm... so now Olympus not only has to make tiny, excellent quality lenses at bargain basement prices to make some folks happy, but these lenses also have to make up for the inadequacies of the user?

Good Grief, Charlie Brown!

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magnesus3 Contributing Member • Posts: 525
Re: Even taking into account that Robin is a master...

...I believe that having 24-400mm equiv in one lens with that IQ is a wonder.

It is impressive but there are cameras who have done this before with 1'' sensor and reportedly good results.

Auf Reisen Contributing Member • Posts: 652
Re: Robin Wong's 12-200 review is out
3

gary0319 wrote:

Auf Reisen wrote:

The problem with Robin is that he's a bloody magician that makes even the 75-300 sing. And that is a lens that I find rather so-so. So of course the pictures he provides look great, I'm not sure how much that tells me about the lenses' capabilities in lesser hands.

Hmmmm... so now Olympus not only has to make tiny, excellent quality lenses at bargain basement prices to make some folks happy, but these lenses also have to make up for the inadequacies of the user?

Good Grief, Charlie Brown!

Oh for Christ's sake Lucy, apply a little charity to what I wrote.

Yes, one function of technology is to make up for the inadequacies of users. We have intervallometers because I can't be trusted to take time-lapse shots with a stop-watch. We have zebra warnings because I can't be trusted to perfectly fine-tune exposure by myself. We have stabilisation technology because I and many others have less than perfectly steady hands.

This notion that a perfectly capable photographer can work around all the issues that technology is designed to mitigate and that therefore, we shouldn't expect technology to mitigate these issues, is ludicrous. We don't need small and light cameras, Ansel Adams used medium format!

If a former sharpshooter who now makes a living as a brain surgeon takes perfectly sharp pictures at 1/2s that tells me less about the qualities of stabilisation technology than if someone else had done it.

Makes sense? Good, now hold that football steady.

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jwilliams Veteran Member • Posts: 4,781
Re: In Hiding ...
1

gary0319 wrote:

jwilliams wrote:

Antal I Kozma wrote:

jwilliams wrote:

Adrian Tung wrote:

https://blog.mingthein.com/2019/02/27/review-the-2019-olympus-zd-12-200-f3-5-6-3/

Looks like a decent super-zoom for its price, but not my cup of tea.

Typical superzoom. Aperture closes down real fast. IQ at long end is just so so.

At $899 they'd have to have a 50% off sale to even get me to think about it. Waay overpriced for its capabilities.

Oly continues to create new cameras and lenses I have absolutely no interest in. Batting 100% there.

How do you dare to say these things............... ? You will be crucified no doubt....... You heretic and traitor of the Olympus faithful............

Aperture closing down very fast???? IQ at the long end is not up to snuff?????? Man, those things do not matter, this lens is another Olympus masterpiece...... Photographers need long super zooms with slow aperture and other optical compromises.......

Anyhow, you should get a wig, a fake moustache and use strong make-up from here on because someone might get you on the street............

Best, AIK

Don't worry I'm already in hiding. Don't need a fake mustache as I shaved my real one off so now nobody can tell it is me.

Funny thing is I probably own more Oly gear than 99% of those posting here, but I've just never been one for cults.

Hmmmm... I come to believe that being an Olympus shooter makes one a member of a cult, simply by association. Welcome to the club/cult..

Owning Oly gear doesn't make you a member of a cult, but apparently anything other than glowing praise for everything they make turns the cult on you.

After all the arrows being slung at me, I sat for a moment and did a quick mental tally of the cost of my Oly gear. I quit after I crossed $3K. I also do not own anything they have introduced in recent years. They've simply ventured down paths that have no interest to me.

I'm down to one inexpensive Oly camera, an EPL7. None of their current cameras interest me. Obviously I have lots of their glass and like most of it. The one thing I'm going to part with is the 14-150 II. I'd like to have a better replacement at reasonable cost but they obviously will never make one.

m43 gear has never been cheap, but lately in Oly's case, the price vs. performance has become really bad. To me this lens is just another example.

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Jonathan

Mark Ransom
Mark Ransom Veteran Member • Posts: 5,923
Re: Even taking into account that Robin is a master...
1

magnesus3 wrote:

...I believe that having 24-400mm equiv in one lens with that IQ is a wonder.

It is impressive but there are cameras who have done this before with 1'' sensor and reportedly good results.

That's a good point. Once you have a lens that never needs to come off the camera, why have an interchangeable lens camera?

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Auf Reisen Contributing Member • Posts: 652
Re: Even taking into account that Robin is a master...
2

Mark Ransom wrote:

magnesus3 wrote:

...I believe that having 24-400mm equiv in one lens with that IQ is a wonder.

It is impressive but there are cameras who have done this before with 1'' sensor and reportedly good results.

That's a good point. Once you have a lens that never needs to come off the camera, why have an interchangeable lens camera?

For me, it's about having a small "modular" system. I can take the camera hiking and never change the lens. Then, as we turn into a pub, I put a small prime on and take group pictures in low light.

Other days, I might just want to challenge myself creatively and only walk around with a prime, limiting my compositions to one final length. Or I want to go birding with a long lens. All with one small camera that I know in and out.

I honestly don't get people who constantly switch lenses while in the field. The sirs is probably long gone before you even opened the bag.

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tomhongkong Veteran Member • Posts: 3,872
Re: Even taking into account that Robin is a master...
4

I don't mean to reply specifically to you, although your comments do feature in what I say.

I cannot remember such a bunch of whining willies as the people who have responded to this announcement.  And with so little reason

So, it is not F4.0 at the long end.  Have you worked out how big, heavy and costly that would be? If you pause to think, that is not going to happen

So you would prefer a 12-100.  Well there are people who would prefer an 18-250, or all sorts of other ranges, and it may not be for you.  No need to get upset about it.  Get real, Olympus are not entirely stupid and have no doubt done a market survey of what will sell best.  If you really want 12-100 (and 14-150 is not good enough) there is a perfectly good lens for you, as you know...if you spend a little more.  However the 12-100 will never deliver images to match any 12-200 at the long end (unless it is made of bottle glass0

Then there are those people who think that you can get the same IQ from a 1 inch superzoom.  Two problems, the IQ is not the same (check images in the DPreview studio link) and when you need to use another lens, say a wide aperture low light lens, you are stuffed.

Then there is the gentleman who is currently criticising everything which Olympus does.  I do not deny you the right to do that, but if you really feel that way about it you should sell your $3K worth of gear (much less than I have, incidentally) and move on to something you like.  Tip,.. life is too short to keep hating any product!

It seems to me that the lens is a perfectly reasonable proposition if it works at the long end.  We do not have any proper samples yet, and I will be one of the first to forget about it if it does not deliver.  Currently, though, there is no single lens M4/3 alternative (and I cannot think of a alternative in other formats either, does not say there is not one, though)

Meanwhile a civilised and sensible discussion (I know that is not what happens here) would be nice

tom

1943Mike
1943Mike Regular Member • Posts: 278
Re: Even taking into account that Robin is a master...
1

Hooray for the voice of reason!

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1943Mike

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Auf Reisen Contributing Member • Posts: 652
Re: Even taking into account that Robin is a master...

tomhongkong wrote:

So you would prefer a 12-100. Well there are people who would prefer an 18-250, or all sorts of other ranges, and it may not be for you. No need to get upset about it. Get real, Olympus are not entirely stupid and have no doubt done a market survey of what will sell best. If you really want 12-100 (and 14-150 is not good enough) there is a perfectly good lens for you, as you know...if you spend a little more. However the 12-100 will never deliver images to match any 12-200 at the long end (unless it is made of bottle glass0

You're barking up the wrong tree. Seriously, chill. Between the two of us, I don't think I'm the one being upset.

I repeatedly stated that I find the 12-200 a very suitable option that I am seriously considering.

I am exactly the target demographic for this type of lens and me remarking how I think an even better trade-off between capabilities and weight would have been achieved is not whining, it's adding to the discussion. And no, the 12-100 strikes a very different balance, what with it being quite a bit weightier.

Me sharing my thought process in considering this lens in a thread specifically about this lens is not exactly off-topic. Honestly, what kind of responses were you hoping for? Shall we all hold hands and sing the praises of 12-200, our Lens and Saviour?

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jwilliams Veteran Member • Posts: 4,781
Heaping praise on Oly ...
1

tomhongkong wrote:

Then there is the gentleman who is currently criticising everything which Olympus does. I do not deny you the right to do that, but if you really feel that way about it you should sell your $3K worth of gear (much less than I have, incidentally) and move on to something you like. Tip,.. life is too short to keep hating any product!

Guess you are talking about me so I might as well chime in.

First, I never give some sort of unwavering loyalty to any product, system or company. To do so would be silly.

Second, this is a gear forum and it seems to me to make sense to discuss new products. Now many seem to think that discussion only allows positive things to be said. Strange anyone would think in this manner. If we just blindly heap praise on a given manufacturer how are they to know if they are or are not making products that perform well and suit our needs?

Why would I sell my Oly gear? For the most part I love it. Yes you read that right.

If someone wants to hear me sing the praises of Oly start a thread about the 40-150 2.8. I'll chime in and heap praise on it. Great lens and performs in-line with its pricing. Their 17 1.8 is probably the most underrated m43 lens out there. 25 1.8 - fantastic lens and a great bargain. And so and so on - but only for products that deserve such praise.

The only Oly product I currently own that I am not real happy with is the 14-150 II. This lens could have solved that problem, but from what I know at this moment it is just an expanded FL range version of the former with a too big price tag.

I can love some gear from a manufacturer and point to how silly/bad/poor/overpriced other products of theirs are. This is really simple to do. Just evaluate each piece independently and in a very thorough and fact based manner.

For me, Oly has not made a product I am interested in for a couple of years. Some are nice products, but are simply overpriced for what they do (f1.2 primes come to mind). Others, like the EM1x, are just a huge waste of resources that have resulted in the rest of the camera product line going stale. If I just praise everything they produce, that is just an incentive to make more products that I will not buy. They do want me to buy their products - don't they?

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Jonathan

nigelbb Contributing Member • Posts: 631
Re: Even taking into account that Robin is a master...
1

magnesus3 wrote:

...I believe that having 24-400mm equiv in one lens with that IQ is a wonder.

It is impressive but there are cameras who have done this before with 1'' sensor and reportedly good results.

The Panasonic FZ1000 has an F/2.8-4.0 25-400mm FF equivalent zoom lens & is an absolute bargain at £528.

The amazing RX10M3 or even more amazing RX10M4 have an F/2.4-4.0 24-600mm FF equivalent zoom lens & cost £1249 & £1799 respectively.

All three of these 1" bridge cameras have IQ approaching MFT. The Sony cameras especially have amazing lenses & very very good IQ.

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nigelbb Contributing Member • Posts: 631
Re: Even taking into account that Robin is a master...

Mark Ransom wrote:

magnesus3 wrote:

...I believe that having 24-400mm equiv in one lens with that IQ is a wonder.

It is impressive but there are cameras who have done this before with 1'' sensor and reportedly good results.

That's a good point. Once you have a lens that never needs to come off the camera, why have an interchangeable lens camera?

That is a very good argument in favour of the Sony 1" bridge cameras especially the RX100M6 with the F/2.8-4.5 24-200mm FF equivalent lens which fits in your pocket & delivers the same image quality as the amazing RX10M4 with F/2.4-4.0 24-600mm FF equivalent lens which definitely will not fit in your pocket. IQ from these cameras is pretty much indistinguishable from MFT. You miss out on ultra wide-angle & the combined price of the RX100M6 & RX10M4 would buy an E-M1X body but it sure is convenient always having the right lens on your camera & a camera always in your pocket with a 24-200mm FF equivalent (12-100 MFT equivalent) lens.

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Jeff Veteran Member • Posts: 6,131
Re: Heaping praise on Oly ...
6

jwilliams wrote:

tomhongkong wrote:

Then there is the gentleman who is currently criticising everything which Olympus does. I do not deny you the right to do that, but if you really feel that way about it you should sell your $3K worth of gear (much less than I have, incidentally) and move on to something you like. Tip,.. life is too short to keep hating any product!

Guess you are talking about me so I might as well chime in.

First, I never give some sort of unwavering loyalty to any product, system or company. To do so would be silly.

Second, this is a gear forum and it seems to me to make sense to discuss new products. Now many seem to think that that only allows positive things to be said. Strange anyone would think in this manner. If we just blindly heap praise on a given manufacturer how are they to know if they are or are not making products that perform well and suit our needs?

Why would I sell my Oly gear? For the most part I love it. Yes you read that right.

If someone wants to hear me sing the praises of Oly start a thread about the 40-150 2.8. I'll chime in and heap praise on it. Great lens and performs in-line with its pricing. Their 17 1.8 is probably the most underrated m43 lens out there. 25 1.8 - fantastic lens and a great bargain. And so and so on - but only for products that deserve such praise.

The only Oly product I currently own that I am not real happy with is the 14-150 II. This lens could have solved that problem, but from what I know at this moment it is just an expanded FL range version of the former with a too big price tag.

I can love some gear from a manufacturer and point to how silly/bad/poor/overpriced other products of theirs are. This is really simple to do. Just evaluate each piece independently and in a very thorough and fact based manner.

For me, Oly has not made a product I am interested in for a couple of years. Some are nice products, but are simply overpriced for what they do (f1.2 primes come to mind). Others, like the EM1x, are just a huge waste of resources that have resulted in the rest of the camera product line going stale. If I just praise everything they produce, that is just an incentive to make more products that I will not buy. They do want me to buy their products - don't they?

You might reread your post. Do you see the words you use? For example, you 'love', 'sing praises', 'great' some things, but others are 'silly/bad/poor/overpriced' or an 'awful waste of resources?

There's a lot of space between those extremes.  It's not a binary world.

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