M Lens Performance & Aspherical Micro-lenses Lumix S1R +SL2

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Strangefinder
Strangefinder Regular Member • Posts: 387
M Lens Performance & Aspherical Micro-lenses Lumix S1R +SL2
2

Given the establishment of the L Mount Alliance; the longstanding technical partnership between Panasonic and Leica; and the anticipated release of the elegant Leica SL2, I wonder if the new microlens design of the Panasonic Lumix S1R would confer an advantage to the performance of adapted M lenses on L mount cameras equipped with the feature, and if this sensor may appear within the Leica SL2 (from the phrasing, it sounds like it's currently unique to the high-resolution Lumix S1R.)

Speculation, of course, though if any news comes to light, or any technical knowledge can be brought to bear, then please share your links and views.

If true, then between the 5.7m/120fps/0.005s EVF and the ASPH micro lenses, the Lumix S1R and perhaps the new Leica SL2 would become ideal platforms for adapted M lenses. (Especially, perhaps, with the dread wider-than-35mm lenses.)

Thoughts?

Press Release excerpt:

Unprecedented picture quality and high descriptive performance LUMIX S1R

The LUMIX S1R incorporates a new 47.3-megapixel CMOS sensor without LPF (Low Pass Filter) to realize high resolution and descriptive performance. This sensor adopts an aspherical lens for the on-chip micro lens to enhance light condensation. Together with the optimum design to concentrate more incoming light onto the photodiode, it achieves both high resolution and highly efficient light condensation performance. This results in the realization of the industry’s highest level of 47.3-megapixel resolution* in the full-frame mirrorless cameras at high S/N ratio and maximum ISO 25600 high sensitivity. The large amount of digital signals is processed by the new high-speed, high-performance image processor Venus Engine to render images with breathtaking description in both photo and video.

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deepiReview Regular Member • Posts: 434
Re: M Lens Performance & Aspherical Micro-lenses Lumix S1R +SL2
2

M lenses work best on M cameras and this is not going to change.

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Strangefinder
OP Strangefinder Regular Member • Posts: 387
Re: M Lens Performance & Aspherical Micro-lenses Lumix S1R +SL2
1

deepiReview wrote:

M lenses work best on M cameras and this is not going to change.

True, though I'm referring to adapting M lenses in this instance.  I'd love an M10-D or M10-M to accompany my M6 at some stage, yet you've got to admit that they do lack bang-for-your-buck   (Currently a big factor for me.)

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deepiReview Regular Member • Posts: 434
Re: M Lens Performance & Aspherical Micro-lenses Lumix S1R +SL2

Strangefinder wrote:

deepiReview wrote:

M lenses work best on M cameras and this is not going to change.

True, though I'm referring to adapting M lenses in this instance. I'd love an M10-D or M10-M to accompany my M6 at some stage, yet you've got to admit that they do lack bang-for-your-buck (Currently a big factor for me.)

And that was my point - don't hold your breath adapting M lenses to L mount and expecting same reults as M. If price is a consideration, then a used M240 offers pretty solid bang-for-your-buck today assuming you are "invested" in M lenses.

On the other hand, "value for money" is subjective. A lot of M10 owners will say it offers a good bang for their buck and nothing wrong with that statement.

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Strangefinder
OP Strangefinder Regular Member • Posts: 387
Re: M Lens Performance & Aspherical Micro-lenses Lumix S1R +SL2

deepiReview wrote:

Strangefinder wrote:

deepiReview wrote:

M lenses work best on M cameras and this is not going to change.

True, though I'm referring to adapting M lenses in this instance. I'd love an M10-D or M10-M to accompany my M6 at some stage, yet you've got to admit that they do lack bang-for-your-buck (Currently a big factor for me.)

And that was my point - don't hold your breath adapting M lenses to L mount and expecting same reults as M. If price is a consideration, then a used M240 offers pretty solid bang-for-your-buck today assuming you are "invested" in M lenses.

On the other hand, "value for money" is subjective. A lot of M10 owners will say it offers a good bang for their buck and nothing wrong with that statement.

I'm not looking for acquisition advice.  I bought a Leica from a dealer a few years ago and they backed out, which put me off.  I'll only buy an M within certain parameters, and I've taken a different path now.

This micro-lens innovation may come to the M series and L series next.  Perhaps it's of no consequence to M rendition, or perhaps it is.

Early days.

Let me know if you see anything related.

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deepiReview Regular Member • Posts: 434
Re: M Lens Performance & Aspherical Micro-lenses Lumix S1R +SL2

Strangefinder wrote:

deepiReview wrote:

Strangefinder wrote:

deepiReview wrote:

M lenses work best on M cameras and this is not going to change.

True, though I'm referring to adapting M lenses in this instance. I'd love an M10-D or M10-M to accompany my M6 at some stage, yet you've got to admit that they do lack bang-for-your-buck (Currently a big factor for me.)

And that was my point - don't hold your breath adapting M lenses to L mount and expecting same reults as M. If price is a consideration, then a used M240 offers pretty solid bang-for-your-buck today assuming you are "invested" in M lenses.

On the other hand, "value for money" is subjective. A lot of M10 owners will say it offers a good bang for their buck and nothing wrong with that statement.

I'm not looking for acquisition advice. I bought a Leica from a dealer a few years ago and they backed out, which put me off. I'll only buy an M within certain parameters, and I've taken a different path now.

This micro-lens innovation may come to the M series and L series next. Perhaps it's of no consequence to M rendition, or perhaps it is.

Early days.

Let me know if you see anything related.

Excellent.

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JDLaing50 Senior Member • Posts: 1,713
Re: M Lens Performance & Aspherical Micro-lenses Lumix S1R +SL2
1

Strangefinder wrote:

deepiReview wrote:

Strangefinder wrote:

deepiReview wrote:

M lenses work best on M cameras and this is not going to change.

True, though I'm referring to adapting M lenses in this instance. I'd love an M10-D or M10-M to accompany my M6 at some stage, yet you've got to admit that they do lack bang-for-your-buck (Currently a big factor for me.)

And that was my point - don't hold your breath adapting M lenses to L mount and expecting same reults as M. If price is a consideration, then a used M240 offers pretty solid bang-for-your-buck today assuming you are "invested" in M lenses.

On the other hand, "value for money" is subjective. A lot of M10 owners will say it offers a good bang for their buck and nothing wrong with that statement.

I'm not looking for acquisition advice. I bought a Leica from a dealer a few years ago and they backed out, which put me off. I'll only buy an M within certain parameters, and I've taken a different path now.

This micro-lens innovation may come to the M series and L series next. Perhaps it's of no consequence to M rendition, or perhaps it is.

Early days.

Let me know if you see anything related.

Micro lenses have been on an M camera for a while now. It’s not a new innovation.

 JDLaing50's gear list:JDLaing50's gear list
Sony RX1R II Leica M-P (Typ 240) Voigtlander 50mm F1.5 Nokton +2 more
Charles2
Charles2 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,010
Re: M Lens Performance & Aspherical Micro-lenses Lumix S1R +SL2
2

deepiReview wrote:

M lenses work best on M cameras and this is not going to change.

The second assertion is unprovable, and the first one is already debatable. Some will find that an M lens works better on a Leica SL today than on an M9 and even an M240.

And when you get to focal lengths outside the comfort zone of the rangefinder mechanism, that is another reason to find that an M lens works better on a Leica SL today.

deepiReview Regular Member • Posts: 434
Re: M Lens Performance & Aspherical Micro-lenses Lumix S1R +SL2

Charles2 wrote:

deepiReview wrote:

M lenses work best on M cameras and this is not going to change.

The second assertion is unprovable, and the first one is already debatable. Some will find that an M lens works better on a Leica SL today than on an M9 and even an M240.

And when you get to focal lengths outside the comfort zone of the rangefinder mechanism, that is another reason to find that an M lens works better on a Leica SL today.

What does the assertion "work better" mean? Better results on SL than M240 or M10?

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Charles2
Charles2 Veteran Member • Posts: 6,010
Re: M Lens Performance & Aspherical Micro-lenses Lumix S1R +SL2

deepiReview wrote:

Charles2 wrote:

,,,Some will find that an M lens works better on a Leica SL today than on an M9 and even an M240.

What does the assertion "work better" mean? Better results on SL than M240 or M10?

Yes, some will find exactly that. See, for example,
www. l-camera-forum .com/topic/276074-sl-m-lens-vs-m-m-lens/

Strangefinder
OP Strangefinder Regular Member • Posts: 387
Re: M Lens Performance & Aspherical Micro-lenses Lumix S1R +SL2

JDLaing50 wrote:

Strangefinder wrote:

I'm not looking for acquisition advice. I bought a Leica from a dealer a few years ago and they backed out, which put me off. I'll only buy an M within certain parameters, and I've taken a different path now.

This micro-lens innovation may come to the M series and L series next. Perhaps it's of no consequence to M rendition, or perhaps it is.

Early days.

Let me know if you see anything related.

Micro lenses have been on an M camera for a while now. It’s not a new innovation.

The S1R's Aspherical micro lenses are a micro lens innovation.

I'm not suggesting that micro lenses themselves are an innovation - I understand that Leica has utilised them since the M8, perhaps earlier.

However, the S1R and SL's successor may have an even more effective form.  And we all know that Leica loves ASPH   #speculation #LeicaLovesASPH

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(unknown member) Contributing Member • Posts: 504
Aspherical and offset micro-lenses
3

Because single-lens reflex cameras needed clearance for the reflex mirror, lens designers were constrained when it came to wide angle lenses. Hence nearly every SLR wide-angle lens used a retrofocus, or "inverted telephoto", design. Rangefinder cameras such as the Leica M had no such constraints and could use much more symmetrical designs for their wide angle lenses, with the rear element very close to the image plane. In the days of film, this meant that Leica's wide angle lenses were significantly better than those offered by Nikon, Canon, Pentax, etc.

With the advent of digital cameras, things were not so clear cut. Whereas film was simply a very thin recording medium, a digital sensor was a thick structure which interacted with the lens to play a significant part in the optical system. In particular, rays striking the corners of the sensor at large angles of incidence tended to cause vignetting and colour shifts. To counter this, Leica developed a system of offset micro-lenses to allow the sensor to perform correctly with its existing lens designs.

Aspherical micro-lenses are a different thing - it just means that the shape of the lens is optimised a little away from a simple sphere. I haven't seen any reference that says this is to accomodate legacy lenses. More likely it would be to improve quantum efficiency of the sensor.

deepiReview Regular Member • Posts: 434
Re: M Lens Performance & Aspherical Micro-lenses Lumix S1R +SL2

Charles2 wrote:

deepiReview wrote:

Charles2 wrote:

,,,Some will find that an M lens works better on a Leica SL today than on an M9 and even an M240.

What does the assertion "work better" mean? Better results on SL than M240 or M10?

Yes, some will find exactly that. See, for example,
www. l-camera-forum .com/topic/276074-sl-m-lens-vs-m-m-lens/

And some won't - same forum has threads where "some" people find M on M better than M on SL or anything else.

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Strangefinder
OP Strangefinder Regular Member • Posts: 387
Re: Aspherical and offset micro-lenses

John Kot wrote:

Because single-lens reflex cameras needed clearance for the reflex mirror, lens designers were constrained when it came to wide angle lenses. Hence nearly every SLR wide-angle lens used a retrofocus, or "inverted telephoto", design. Rangefinder cameras such as the Leica M had no such constraints and could use much more symmetrical designs for their wide angle lenses, with the rear element very close to the image plane. In the days of film, this meant that Leica's wide angle lenses were significantly better than those offered by Nikon, Canon, Pentax, etc.

With the advent of digital cameras, things were not so clear cut. Whereas film was simply a very thin recording medium, a digital sensor was a thick structure which interacted with the lens to play a significant part in the optical system. In particular, rays striking the corners of the sensor at large angles of incidence tended to cause vignetting and colour shifts. To counter this, Leica developed a system of offset micro-lenses to allow the sensor to perform correctly with its existing lens designs.

Great overview, thanks

Aspherical micro-lenses are a different thing - it just means that the shape of the lens is optimised a little away from a simple sphere. I haven't seen any reference that says this is to accomodate legacy lenses. More likely it would be to improve quantum efficiency of the sensor.

Yes, I'm speculating, and requesting viewpoints and the tracking of information as it becomes available.

It's possible that the ASPH micro lenses can do both (your remark sounds similar to their description), or that they serve some other function.  I would not expect Panasonic to specify any M lens performance advantages in their material, especially if the new SL were to be making that point.

It piqued my interest because it potentially intersects with Leica's technical interest in optimising M lens performance

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samhain Senior Member • Posts: 1,449
Re: M Lens Performance & Aspherical Micro-lenses Lumix S1R +SL2
2

I believe it was Thorsten Overgaard who stated that one of the reasons M lenses work so much better on Leica cameras vs others is due to the glass thickness that covers the sensor.

Going from memory, I believe he said Leica uses 0.8mm thick glass, while others like Fuji or Sony use 2mm thick glass.

I don’t know how true that is and how much that has to do with it, but if I was considering buying an S1/S1R and planning to use M lenses on it, I’d reach out to Panasonic and ask them about the sensor glass thickness.

Robgo2 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,104
Re: M Lens Performance & Aspherical Micro-lenses Lumix S1R +SL2
1

deepiReview wrote:

M lenses work best on M cameras and this is not going to change.

There are plenty of people who own both a Leica digital M and an SL who report comparable performance of M lenses on both cameras.

Rob

Clint Dunn Senior Member • Posts: 1,574
Doubtful
2

Charles2 wrote:

deepiReview wrote:

M lenses work best on M cameras and this is not going to change.

The second assertion is unprovable, and the first one is already debatable. Some will find that an M lens works better on a Leica SL today than on an M9 and even an M240.

This is wrong, period. I own an SL and while it is great, and for me preferable to a M240/M10 rangefinder it does NOT perform as well with M glass as an M camera. There are countless examples posted online, 2 mins of Google will show you. The SL DOES perform better with M glass then Sony bodies, but not as good as using an M body.

Personally, I would be more then happy if the S1R performs as well as the current SL with M glass...that would be a win in my books. That said, I don't expect that the S1R will play any better with M glass then a Sony, or Fuji or others where you end up with mushy corners, colour casts etc.

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Leica SL (Typ 601) Carl Zeiss C Sonnar T* 1,5/50 ZM Voigtlander 15mm F4.5 Super Wide Heliar Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 1,4/35 ZM Leica SL 24-90mm F2.8-4 +2 more
deepiReview Regular Member • Posts: 434
Re: M Lens Performance & Aspherical Micro-lenses Lumix S1R +SL2

Robgo2 wrote:

deepiReview wrote:

M lenses work best on M cameras and this is not going to change.

There are plenty of people who own both a Leica digital M and an SL who report comparable performance of M lenses on both cameras.

Rob

See post above.

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Robgo2 Veteran Member • Posts: 5,104
Re: M Lens Performance & Aspherical Micro-lenses Lumix S1R +SL2

deepiReview wrote:

Robgo2 wrote:

deepiReview wrote:

M lenses work best on M cameras and this is not going to change.

There are plenty of people who own both a Leica digital M and an SL who report comparable performance of M lenses on both cameras.

Rob

See post above.

Well, not everyone agrees that there is a significant difference in performance. Here is a thread that I started on the subject at the Leica Camera Forum. You can read the responses from experienced Leica users.

Leica Forum-M lenses on M and SL cameras

Rob

deepiReview Regular Member • Posts: 434
Re: M Lens Performance & Aspherical Micro-lenses Lumix S1R +SL2

Robgo2 wrote:

deepiReview wrote:

Robgo2 wrote:

deepiReview wrote:

M lenses work best on M cameras and this is not going to change.

There are plenty of people who own both a Leica digital M and an SL who report comparable performance of M lenses on both cameras.

Rob

See post above.

Well, not everyone agrees that there is a significant difference in performance. Here is a thread that I started on the subject at the Leica Camera Forum. You can read the responses from experienced Leica users.

Leica Forum-M lenses on M and SL cameras

Rob

My post was about the best system for M lenses. Reading forum threads on what others "think" is not relevant compared to first-hand experience.

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