600PF??

Started 8 months ago | Discussions
Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 17,782
Re: 600PF??

Rob Blight wrote:

500PF has a front filter thread diameter of 95mm, not 77mm.

Sorry - my mistake.

This means a 600mm f5.6 needs a 107 mm minimum front element and a lens diameter in excess of 112 mm.

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Leonard Shepherd
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DerKeyser Regular Member • Posts: 444
Re: 600PF??
1

To be perfectly honest, I don’t think we will ever see a 600PF for F-Mount.

It would be the perfect “lure” to get birders and action shooters to join the Mirrorless revolution. So my guess is, that with the success of 500PF Nikon will leave F-mount alone and after a Z9 or whatever it’s called is introduced, the 600PF will be released for Z-mount.

That way those that really want it will have to join the Z revolution and the beginning of pro’s on Z can commence Once a pro Z9 is released there will be a huge demand for native tele lenses as well. Why make another hallmark lens for the obsolete F-Mount and face even more delays for Z lens demand?

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Rob Blight
Rob Blight Forum Member • Posts: 62
Re: 600PF??
1

DerKeyser wrote:

To be perfectly honest, I don’t think we will ever see a 600PF for F-Mount.

It would be the perfect “lure” to get birders and action shooters to join the Mirrorless revolution. So my guess is, that with the success of 500PF Nikon will leave F-mount alone and after a Z9 or whatever it’s called is introduced, the 600PF will be released for Z-mount.

That way those that really want it will have to join the Z revolution and the beginning of pro’s on Z can commence Once a pro Z9 is released there will be a huge demand for native tele lenses as well. Why make another hallmark lens for the obsolete F-Mount and face even more delays for Z lens demand?

You could also argue the opposite - they will make it F-mount to assure they keep selling DSLRs. Nikon are arguably at the top in terms of highly regarded DSLRs (D850, D500 etc) and I would think they want to keep milking that rather than switching purely over to mirrorless (which is now a far more competitive market).

What's the longest native mirrorless lens? Sony 400/2.8? I think there must be a reason we aren't seeing a lot of superteles for mirrorless and it might be because the AF systems still aren't quite there yet.

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chambeshi Senior Member • Posts: 2,094
Re: 600PF??

Rob Blight wrote:

DerKeyser wrote:

To be perfectly honest, I don’t think we will ever see a 600PF for F-Mount.

It would be the perfect “lure” to get birders and action shooters to join the Mirrorless revolution. So my guess is, that with the success of 500PF Nikon will leave F-mount alone and after a Z9 or whatever it’s called is introduced, the 600PF will be released for Z-mount.

Good point

That way those that really want it will have to join the Z revolution and the beginning of pro’s on Z can commence Once a pro Z9 is released there will be a huge demand for native tele lenses as well. Why make another hallmark lens for the obsolete F-Mount and face even more delays for Z lens demand?

Stand to be corrected but the FTZ (or an equivalent tube of requisite robustness) is the only principal design difference that turns a SLR telephoto into the Z-MILC version

You could also argue the opposite - they will make it F-mount to assure they keep selling DSLRs. Nikon are arguably at the top in terms of highly regarded DSLRs (D850, D500 etc) and I would think they want to keep milking that rather than switching purely over to mirrorless (which is now a far more competitive market).

Yes. makes sense

What's the longest native mirrorless lens? Sony 400/2.8? I think there must be a reason we aren't seeing a lot of superteles for mirrorless and it might be because the AF systems still aren't quite there yet.

Both explanations have merit wrt whether the DSLR - MILC as the imaging instrument. It's about selling more cameras, albeit the higher profit margin in the telephoto optic sold to as many photographers as possible.

OTH the legacy of the SLR leading into DSLRs not the main reason why the telephotos that matter are all for DSLR mounts? The origins of the fast 300s etc began in the 1960s (notably Tokyo Olympics, search the Nikon 1001 Nights series of essays), and lead to major breakthroughs in AF and lens elements of Extra-Low dispersion and fluorite glass, which in the case of Nikon took a leap forward thanks to "Genius" Sato , an optical maestro of note.

Sigma? They've built for the market, which is Canon and Nikon SLR cameras mostly.

Sony? A very recent player for whom DSLRs are the externality, but with the resources for serious R&D to catch up to CaNikon. Hence their 400 f2.8

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lickity split
lickity split Veteran Member • Posts: 5,450
Re: 600PF??
1

topcat5 wrote:

Nikon has no intention of releasing a 600 PF in the foreseeable future.

And you know this how , and please don’t tell me a fortune cookie told you

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xGumbyx Regular Member • Posts: 362
Re: 600PF??
1

Leonard Shepherd wrote:

xGumbyx wrote:

Nikon can't even keep up with 500pf orders due to, as rumour has it, the pf element itself being very difficult to manufacture due to its size (compared to the 300pf).

antonoat postage just before you "As for those who are continually bashing Nikon for the availability for the 500 I wish you would give it a rest"

I say plus 1 - and in addition you seem not to be quoting truth.

The 500 PF is likely to be about double the price of the 500 PF at some time in the future when street discounts are available on both lenses.

Information shows Nikon has supplied 38,774 300 PF's in 39 months - an average of 994 a month.

Nikon has supplied around 6,550 copies of the 500 PF in 9 months - an average of 727 a month.

Unless you expect Nikon to produce more D850 bodies than D750 bodies with their similar 50% price differential you cannot find 1% evidence the rumour you quote is true, and at least 99% evidence if you look it is not true.

One possibility is that in another 9 months order backlogs for the 500 PF will be short; as happened with the 300 PF in the UK after about 18 months of production.

On the 500pf the pf element looks almost as large as the outside element.

So?

The same is true of the 300 PF

As both lenses have a 77mm front filter size each PF element has a similar diameter based on Nikon literature. The diameter difference looks less than 3mm based on the drawings at www.nikon.imaging.com

If this would be the same case for a 600pf good luck that Nikon could deliver in any type of reliable capacity.

Nikon hasdelivered reliable supplies of both the 300 and 500 PF

That aside will there be a 600 PF?

My guess is - unlikely - because

a/ the TC-14e III fills the gap quite well between 300 and 500mm

b/ sales of a 600 PF would compete quite directly with the 500 PF, likely reducing the volume of sales to perhaps less than 500 month. This implies a longer production run-in time to recoup development costs.

c/ to keep a 600 PF compact and lightweight it needs a larger front element than the 500 PF - maybe 95 mm combined with f6.3.

I am not saying "never" to a 600 PF as, although f6.3 and a 1.4 x does not AF with 24x36 DSLR's, f11 combinations AF reasonably well on my Z7.

d/ as Nikon has the 600 PF patent a competitor wanting to introduce a 600 PF would have the dilemma of the cost of working around the patent or paying Nikon a licence fee.

I'm curious exactly when speaking the truth became "bashing"? The issue with keeping up with orders is the manufacturing of the pf element.  The basis for talking about the pf element size vs the front lens size was to point out that for a 600mm 5.6 the size of the front element will be larger thus the pf element will also be larger which means making the pf element will be that much harder as well.

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Leonard Shepherd
Leonard Shepherd Forum Pro • Posts: 17,782
Re: 600PF??
1

xGumbyx wrote:

I'm curious exactly when speaking the truth became "bashing"?

But are you right - if not your comments lack credibility.

The issue with keeping up with orders is the manufacturing of the pf element.

How do you know?

Ignoring the business logic of producing one less unit than demand means more profit as there is no need for discounting, and producing one more than demand leads to discounting and less profit; if it costs $500,000 to set up a second PF element production line to shift what is likely to be a few months backlog and the "profit" gain is only $250,000, this is not sound business sense.

You and I do not know what the economics of a second production line are.

We do know Nikon are producing the 500 PF at a rate of at around 80% of the 300 PF - with the 300 selling (UK prices) at close to the cost of a D750 or D500 and the 500 selling at three times the price.

If you look at D750 and D850 units sold in USA, the photosynthesis site as guidance clarifies the lower price unit sells in much greater volume.

A few might moan and groan but many might say, as with the first 15 months of D850 sales, "Hey this Nikon stuff must be good".

In the background several posters are reporting how they successfully got a 500 PF in a few relatively short weeks.

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Leonard Shepherd
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Bill Ferris
Bill Ferris Veteran Member • Posts: 4,366
Re: 600PF??
1

Leonard Shepherd wrote:

xGumbyx wrote:

I'm curious exactly when speaking the truth became "bashing"?

But are you right - if not your comments lack credibility.

The issue with keeping up with orders is the manufacturing of the pf element.

How do you know?

I would guess the source for the statement that there manufacturing of the PF element is time-consuming and creating a bottleneck in the manufacture of the lens is this "Nikon Rumors" article: https://www.google.com/amp/s/nikonrumors.com/2019/01/29/where-is-the-nikon-af-s-nikkor-500mm-f-5-6e-pf-ed-vr-lens.aspx/amp/

While it is a rumors site, the owner has developed reliable inside sources and I would give a story like this at least  some credibility.

So, not a carved-in-stone fact but more than idle speculation.

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xGumbyx Regular Member • Posts: 362
Re: 600PF??

The first place I read about the pf element being the bottleneck was indeed NR but at some point I also read an interview with a Nikon Sr employee where he talked about the difficulties with the larger of elements. Of course, I can't track down that interview now to prove it so you'll just have to take my word for it, or don't it's your choice.

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OP Paddler213 Contributing Member • Posts: 685
Re: 600PF??

kayaker353 wrote:

If a 600PF is announced, I will pre-order instantly and ask questions later. I have the 80 to 400 and don't think 500 mm offers enough gain. 600 would offer a 50% increase in image size, while a 500mm offers 25%. The practical questions regarding a 600PF would be answered while waiting in queue. I hope they move on this soon, or announce that they are cancelling their earlier announcement that they are developing such a lens. It was pre-announced before the 500PF.

The 500mm will not only deliver a larger image, but the IQ should be much better, too. Especially at the long end, where the 80-400mm is weakest. I think the 500PF will be the sweet spot for an all around tele lens. If I didn't already have the 500/4FL, I'd buy the PF version. My buddy is picking his up today.

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