Considering Quattro H concerned about SA lenses

dazzleships wrote:

I guess I misstated my concern: Sigma is making no more SA cameras. I spend $2-3k on SA lenses they will be worth nothing compared to their Nikon, Canon, Sony counterparts in 3-5 years. Like M42, which were all but worthless until mirrorless cameras came out. Sigma wants $200+ to convert SA to another mount. I am not buying into an already obsolete system. I really want an QH but will hold onto my DP Merrills and see where FF Foveon goes.

Agreed. SA mount lens take a beating on the used market. I say that having purchased and sold a number of them this year. Hard to sell and they sell for considerably less than the same lens in a Canon or Nikon mount. 30% to 50% less and in far smaller numbers.

Shawn

Shawn67 wrote:

dazzleships wrote:

I guess I misstated my concern: Sigma is making no more SA cameras. I spend $2-3k on SA lenses they will be worth nothing compared to their Nikon, Canon, Sony counterparts in 3-5 years. Like M42, which were all but worthless until mirrorless cameras came out. Sigma wants $200+ to convert SA to another mount. I am not buying into an already obsolete system. I really want an QH but will hold onto my DP Merrills and see where FF Foveon goes.

Agreed. SA mount lens take a beating on the used market. I say that having purchased and sold a number of them this year. Hard to sell and they sell for considerably less than the same lens in a Canon or Nikon mount. 30% to 50% less and in far smaller numbers.

Shawn

Very true.

I have "tried" to sell my Sigma SA mount lenses to many of the online retailers that purchase used gear.

NONE - not one - wanted the Sigma SA mount.

I thought - I had a possible trade for another Sigma (Canon EF) mount equivalent lens - to offer - EVERY store was then interested.

I was sort of thinking - if owning the Sigma SA mount lenses are "more possibly valuable for the rarity and availability (or lack-thereof) - it certainly is NOT reflected in the USE marketplace prices.

Have a nice day / evening -

Ed

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dazzleships wrote:

I guess I misstated my concern: Sigma is making no more SA cameras. I spend $2-3k on SA lenses they will be worth nothing compared to their Nikon, Canon, Sony counterparts in 3-5 years. Like M42, which were all but worthless until mirrorless cameras came out. Sigma wants $200+ to convert SA to another mount. I am not buying into an already obsolete system. I really want an QH but will hold onto my DP Merrills and see where FF Foveon goes.

Canon lenses are obsolete 10 years or less from the release of the new version. Imagine how the owners of a 600mm f/4 II at around $12,000.00 feel with the availability of the version 3 of that lens was announced.

Or, the 70-200 f/2.8 VII to the VIII, which seems to be nothing more than a different paint color and some coatings.

The Canon EF 500mm f/4 and the EF 400mm f/2.8 have gone "obsolete", and values plummeted.

Sigma lens support is also finite. I am not aware of anything specified in writing though.

The old 70mm macro is not serviceable, and I would assume that any lenses from that period are also not serviceable.

How long will Sigma service something like the current version of the 105mm macro that is also on sale?

How long will Sigma service the Global Vision lenses?

As I understand it, the SD1M is "obsolete". The only version on the Sigma site is refurbished, not new.

I wouldn't be surprised if the dp Merrill cameras are "obsolete". How about the SD15?

Can't get anything fixed at Nikon because everything has "impact damage"

Sigma is no less obsolete than the others.

eBay is probably the best place to sell SA mount lenses.

Even here, a Sigma camera forum, is limited compared to eBay.

danski0224 wrote:

eBay is probably the best place to sell SA mount lenses.

Even here, a Sigma camera forum, is limited compared to eBay.

Sales are limited on ebay too. In recent history 10 Sigma SA mount ART lenses actually sold. Canon and Nikon lens mount ARTs sold about 9x more each and 15x more Sony mount ART lenses. And they sold for higher prices too.

Shawn

danski0224 wrote:

dazzleships wrote:

I guess I misstated my concern: Sigma is making no more SA cameras. I spend $2-3k on SA lenses they will be worth nothing compared to their Nikon, Canon, Sony counterparts in 3-5 years. Like M42, which were all but worthless until mirrorless cameras came out. Sigma wants $200+ to convert SA to another mount. I am not buying into an already obsolete system. I really want an QH but will hold onto my DP Merrills and see where FF Foveon goes.

Canon lenses are obsolete 10 years or less from the release of the new version. Imagine how the owners of a 600mm f/4 II at around $12,000.00 feel with the availability of the version 3 of that lens was announced.

Or, the 70-200 f/2.8 VII to the VIII, which seems to be nothing more than a different paint color and some coatings.

The Canon EF 500mm f/4 and the EF 400mm f/2.8 have gone "obsolete", and values plummeted.

Sigma lens support is also finite. I am not aware of anything specified in writing though.

The old 70mm macro is not serviceable, and I would assume that any lenses from that period are also not serviceable.

How long will Sigma service something like the current version of the 105mm macro that is also on sale?

How long will Sigma service the Global Vision lenses?

As I understand it, the SD1M is "obsolete". The only version on the Sigma site is refurbished, not new.

I wouldn't be surprised if the dp Merrill cameras are "obsolete". How about the SD15?

Can't get anything fixed at Nikon because everything has "impact damage"

Sigma is no less obsolete than the others.

It is the mount that is obsolete. In all of those Canon lenses you will be able to purchase upgraded native mount cameras. That isn't ending. Canon and Nikon have not said they are discontinuing EF or F mount cameras. There is still an active market for those cameras and Nikon and Canon are going to keep moving in those lines. There will continue to be purchasers of new DSLR bodies and they will need native mount lenses. That keeps the used market moving.

Sigma SA mount has always been a fringe mount. There is a very small market for them and there will be no future cameras developed using that mount. That means no future purchasers of SA mount camera looking for lenses.

Yes, they can be adapted to other mounts (L and FE). But at a size/weight disadvantage compared to native mount and potentially with other restrictions as well. If you already have them you can use them elsewhere. That is nice.

But those without SA mount lenses that are users of L mount cameras or Sony cameras aren't exactly going to be flocking to purchase SA mount lenses (which tend to be ridiculously large) and then make them even bigger (and more expensive) by adding an adapter.

A person with a Nikon or Canon DSLR that is exploring L (or FE) would be more likely to try one of those mount Sigma lenses with an adapter. And there are orders of magnitudes more cameras already out there that can use them as is.

Shawn

Shawn67 wrote:

Sales are limited on ebay too. In recent history 10 Sigma SA mount ART lenses actually sold. Canon and Nikon lens mount ARTs sold about 9x more each and 15x more Sony mount ART lenses. And they sold for higher prices too.

Shawn

But how many of each brand are listed?

I watch Sigma SA lenses on eBay. You are correct that there aren't many listed, and of those that are listed, there is one seller with several NOS very old lenses that is trying to get almost as new prices for them. Those lenses have been listed for over a year.

Then there are a bunch of 30mm kit lenses from the sdQ. Probably mostly from the same people trying to offload them.

It takes a while for something special to pop up. Even a SA mount 1.4x teleconverter for less than new is infrequent.

I won't count them, but I would guess that there are easily 10x-15x more Sigma lenses in any of the other mainstream mounts (Canon, Sony, Nikon) than Sigma SA lenses.

Scottelly wrote:

danski0224 wrote:

dazzleships wrote:

I guess I misstated my concern: Sigma is making no more SA cameras. I spend $2-3k on SA lenses they will be worth nothing compared to their Nikon, Canon, Sony counterparts in 3-5 years. Like M42, which were all but worthless until mirrorless cameras came out. Sigma wants $200+ to convert SA to another mount. I am not buying into an already obsolete system. I really want an QH but will hold onto my DP Merrills and see where FF Foveon goes.

Canon lenses are obsolete 10 years or less from the release of the new version. Imagine how the owners of a 600mm f/4 II at around $12,000.00 feel with the availability of the version 3 of that lens was announced.

I see. On eBay it does look like you can save a few thousand dollars by getting the slightly older model. Of course we're talking about premium products here. Get a used Rolls Royce or boat, and you'll save a lot of money too. The newest models, when sold brand new, are almost always much more expensive than used ones, and the used ones that are older models are a lot less than the used ones that are the latest model. That's just the way the World works.

These were just used as an example for becoming "obsolete", and in Canon-land, not serviceable from the manufacturer.

Or, the 70-200 f/2.8 VII to the VIII, which seems to be nothing more than a different paint color and some coatings.

There are often slight changes internally too. Sometimes they change a lens or a motor. I think it's very rare that they make a new model with just different paint and some different coatings on the lenses. Even so, that can have a slight difference in image quality. Take the difference between a Canon 5 D Mk II and the 5 D Mk III. Not much difference, right? I mean one is 21 MP and the newer model is 22 MP. That'd make you think there's like almost no difference. I think there's a lot more to it than that though. There are differences between more than just the sensor resolution though. The shooting buffer is bigger, the auto-focus is different in the newer model (more AF points), the newer model shoots faster, the ISO setting goes higher, the video capability has been improved (it goes up to 60 fps and includes a 24p mode for cinematic purposes), etc. etc. The newer models of lenses often have a variety of improvements too (i.e. improved image stabilization, faster auto-focus, etc.).

I hate these long re-quotes...

LensRentals did a teardown of the 70-200 III, and found no differences.

The Canon EF 500mm f/4 and the EF 400mm f/2.8 have gone "obsolete", and values plummeted.

Sigma lens support is also finite. I am not aware of anything specified in writing though.

The old 70mm macro is not serviceable, and I would assume that any lenses from that period are also not serviceable.

When you say serviceable, I am guessing you mean that Sigma will not repair them. What about third-party lens repair shops? Don't you think they might fix them?

If the third party shops can get the parts. If the third party shops have the equipment to bring the lenses back to spec. With the more common varieties of lenses, it may be less expensive to source another working copy than to attempt to fix the broken one.

How long will Sigma service something like the current version of the 105mm macro that is also on sale?

They will keep servicing them for at least as long as the warranty has not expired, and the warranty of Sigma lenses now is 4 years. "All brand new Sigma Products purchased from a USA authorized Sigma dealers are covered for 4yr USA warranty against defects in manufacturing and workmanship only (Cine lenses come with only 1yr warranty)." - https://www.sigmaphoto.com/service-support/warranty-registration

Now I guess it's possible that they might tell you as a policy that the lens was abused or got moisture in it, so it is not covered under warranty . . . no matter what is wrong with it. I doubt Sigma wants to do that to their customers though. That would hurt their reputation pretty badly. I haven't tried to get a lens repaired, because frankly a used lens would cost less than a repair, unless it is a very expensive lens, like a big Art lens or a long telephoto lens (i.e. 500mm f4 OS Sport). At this point I haven't had a lens like that, and even if I did, it would probably not have any problems. Those lenses seem to last well.

That said, I have a friend who had a Bigma (Sigma 50-500). It was the model made before they made the OS model. He had a problem with it. It broke (literally part of it broke, and the lens came apart into two pieces). He sent it in to be fixed, and it was returned in a few days, repaired, and working properly. I don't know who he sent it to, but that just shows how older lenses CAN be repaired, even if the repairs have to be made by someone other than Sigma.

Yes, of course they can be repaired- if the parts are available. There are a couple of desirable older Canon lenses that are no longer repairable because spare parts do not exist any longer unless the parts are cannibalized from another broken lens. 200mm f/1.8, 50mm f/1.0, 300mm f/2.8 USM (not IS). Yes, those aren't cheap lenses, but these specific ones (and a few others) cannot be fixed any longer. The manufacturers do not make a huge supply of spare parts, and the spares may not become available to outside sources. I would assume that there isn't a huge stockpile of Canon IS assemblies, for example. It is reasonable to assume that Sigma doesn't have an unlimited supply either.

Because Sigma is privately held and has an enthusiast  attitude, there might be a better chance for longer term serviceability compared to a company like Canon.

As I understand it, Nikon has clamped down pretty hard on service parts availability for third party shops.

I read that Fuji destroyed extra parts for some of the S-Pro cameras not too long ago and didn't sell them. I don't have a link, but I had an S-Pro 3 at one point and read about it then.

danski0224 wrote:

Shawn67 wrote:

Sales are limited on ebay too. In recent history 10 Sigma SA mount ART lenses actually sold. Canon and Nikon lens mount ARTs sold about 9x more each and 15x more Sony mount ART lenses. And they sold for higher prices too.

Shawn

But how many of each brand are listed?

I watch Sigma SA lenses on eBay. You are correct that there aren't many listed, and of those that are listed, there is one seller with several NOS very old lenses that is trying to get almost as new prices for them. Those lenses have been listed for over a year.

Then there are a bunch of 30mm kit lenses from the sdQ. Probably mostly from the same people trying to offload them.

It takes a while for something special to pop up. Even a SA mount 1.4x teleconverter for less than new is infrequent.

I won't count them, but I would guess that there are easily 10x-15x more Sigma lenses in any of the other mainstream mounts (Canon, Sony, Nikon) than Sigma SA lenses.

I am only talking about ART lenses, so that isn't including really old lenses in any mount.

There are 4x as many ART lenses in Canon or Nikon mount currently compared to Sigma SA mount Art lenses. And 10X as many Sony mount ART lenses currently listed.

4x more listings (Canon or Nikon) but 9x more actually sold. Or 10x more listed for Sony and 15x more sold.

Shawn

Scottelly wrote:

It could be that the used market for SA-mount lenses stays hot, as it appears to be now. Every time I have looked for SA-mount lenses on eBay recently, I can barely find any. The situation is the same at KEH.com and the used departments at B&H and Adorama.

Did you miss this post pointing out that none of the resellers would accept SA mount lenses?

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62132426

If the market was hot that wouldn't be occurring. It is happening because the SA mount market is dead.

Shawn

Shawn67 wrote:

Scottelly wrote:

It could be that the used market for SA-mount lenses stays hot, as it appears to be now. Every time I have looked for SA-mount lenses on eBay recently, I can barely find any. The situation is the same at KEH.com and the used departments at B&H and Adorama.

Did you miss this post pointing out that none of the resellers would accept SA mount lenses?

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/62132426

If the market was hot that wouldn't be occurring. It is happening because the SA mount market is dead.

Shawn

Yes Shawn - this is so true - you almost "can't give the Sigma SA mount lenses - "away" - not to the online retailers / of the names we surely most here know of the highly (been in the business-of-buying-reselling-used-gear for many years).

But, I would like to sell to raise SOME funds in return for my Sigma SA mount lenses.. 

Hard to say - some think - (I am guessing) - that ONCE this "L Mount adapter to mount Sigma SA mount lenses) onto the "L mount" camera body / (or bodies) - what will then be the "outcome of the Sigma SA mount lenses?

Will that become MORE valuable?

Ed

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