Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality

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Tommi K1 Senior Member • Posts: 6,695
Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality
3

A yesterday I read that someone likes a joystick on the E-M1X because it makes it easier to select the AF point than constantly using D-pad, and the touch screen was not good enough for them.

There was couple replies as well, like one that how it is so easy on joystick to move AF point to left or right with Canon by using its big wheel on rear.

But how many here knows and has taken in use the Olympus offered two dials to move AF point left/right and up/down, without loosing the grip, moving fingers away from the dual-dials and shutter release button?

How many is using even the features that two dials allows user to select and adjust/change without loosing the grip, moving the thumb and index finger away from shooting moment or from the dials?

Most, but not all adjustments that user does with two dials.

Want to move AF point quickly to left or right? You use front dial.

Want to move AF point quickly to up or down? You use rear dial.

The AF point rotates, meaning if you go past the last AF point, the selection will jump to opposite side, so going from far right to 1-2 points at left requires just 2-3 clicks to the right, as the one between offers full matrix focusing.

Auf Reisen Contributing Member • Posts: 545
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality

This could be a game changer for me. I love the dual dial system and use it extensively for quickly changing shutter speed, aperture, ISO, and WB.

Is there any way to set up the EM 10 II so that at the press of a function button, I can move the focus point around with the disks?

 Auf Reisen's gear list:Auf Reisen's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M10 II Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 45mm F1.8 Olympus M.Zuiko ED 75-300mm 1:4.8-6.7 II Samyang 12mm F2 NCS CS +1 more
OP Tommi K1 Senior Member • Posts: 6,695
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality
4

Auf Reisen wrote:

This could be a game changer for me. I love the dual dial system and use it extensively for quickly changing shutter speed, aperture, ISO, and WB.

Is there any way to set up the EM 10 II so that at the press of a function button, I can move the focus point around with the disks?

Yes. All the OM-D and E-P cameras should be able to do that. You set wanted Fn button (like a either front button in the E-M1, or a Fn1 on E-M10 II as example) to a AF selection.

Pressing the Fn button (no need to hold down) the dual dials operation changes to a AF move operation and half-pressing shutter release button will confirm the position.

Open Menu > Custom > B > Button Function > Fn1. And then set a [---] symbol there for it. There is as well a [---]HP function what does two things by pressing it. One press moves the AF point to Home Point, second press returns it to any previous position you moved it yourself. This way you can example set the home point to be in a center, and then move the AF point around and at fast situation press that Fn button and AF point moves to center, and pressing second time returns it back to previous position.

This allows you example set a HP for one edge of the frame, and then move AF point to other side of frame, and use that Fn button to switch between those quickly.

This modes as well allows you to set two different AF modes, you can have example 9-point at the center as the HP, and then select a own single small to be somewhere else. Pressing Fn button would then switch not just position but the size of the AF too. (Notice, switching to HP point and then moving it around, means it becomes your own selection point, instead being kept as HP point).

The Fn buttons location is the major differential with the OM-D models. The two Fn buttons on E-M1 is what makes a huge difference in operations because you can press them without moving either finger at all from dual-dials. That is where user would need to place the most time critical actions, be it then a AF point mover.

What Olympus has missed is to utilize the 2x2 leveler in deeper way, allowing all Fn buttons to become a B-versions. Meaning going from 1 to 2 would allow to have two different Fn functions on one button.

Auf Reisen Contributing Member • Posts: 545
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality

Wow. Thank you so much for that detailed explanation. This will seriously change how I use my camera for the better.

 Auf Reisen's gear list:Auf Reisen's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M10 II Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 45mm F1.8 Olympus M.Zuiko ED 75-300mm 1:4.8-6.7 II Samyang 12mm F2 NCS CS +1 more
vallecano Contributing Member • Posts: 673
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality

QUOTE:

Open Menu > Custom > B > Button Function > Fn1. And then set a [---] symbol there for it. There is as well a [---]HP function what does two things by pressing it. One press moves the AF point to Home Point, second press returns it to any previous position you moved it yourself. This way you can example set the home point to be in a center, and then move the AF point around and at fast situation press that Fn button and AF point moves to center, and pressing second time returns it back to previous position.

UNQUOTE

I tried setting Fn1 to [---]HP function with my M10 and AF point does not move. Only moves with Fn1 set to [---]. I'm doing something wrong but don't know what.

Any suggestion?

Earl

 vallecano's gear list:vallecano's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M10 Olympus 12-40mm F2.8 +1 more
Donald B
Donald B Forum Pro • Posts: 12,219
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality

actually you don't have to do anything in the fn buttons just press the left arrow and your set to go press ok and returns to centre.

Don

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Olympus EM5, EM5mk2 my toys.
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Donald B
Donald B Forum Pro • Posts: 12,219
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality

Donald B wrote:

actually you don't have to do anything in the fn buttons just press the left arrow and your set to go press ok and returns to centre.

Don

a ball would be better

Don

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Olympus EM5, EM5mk2 my toys.
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9412035244
past toys. k100d, k10d,k7,fz5,fz150,500uz,canon G9, Olympus xz1

Auf Reisen Contributing Member • Posts: 545
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality
1

Donald B wrote:

actually you don't have to do anything in the fn buttons just press the left arrow and your set to go press ok and returns to centre.

Don

Let me elaborate on this point: pushing the D-pad in any direction (not just left) will activate the AF point selection mode. While in there, the dual control dials shift the AF point as well. Pressing ok (or half-pressing the shutter) confirms the point and you exit AF point selection mode.

The advantage of assigning AF point selection to a different button is that one doesn't have to move one's thumb to the D-pad and then up again to control the back dial.

 Auf Reisen's gear list:Auf Reisen's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M10 II Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 45mm F1.8 Olympus M.Zuiko ED 75-300mm 1:4.8-6.7 II Samyang 12mm F2 NCS CS +1 more
Donald B
Donald B Forum Pro • Posts: 12,219
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality

Auf Reisen wrote:

Donald B wrote:

actually you don't have to do anything in the fn buttons just press the left arrow and your set to go press ok and returns to centre.

Don

Let me elaborate on this point: pushing the D-pad in any direction (not just left) will activate the AF point selection mode. While in there, the dual control dials shift the AF point as well. Pressing ok (or half-pressing the shutter) confirms the point and you exit AF point selection mode.

The advantage of assigning AF point selection to a different button is that one doesn't have to move one's thumb to the D-pad and then up again to control the back dial.

In the studio I don't hold the camera My bad. I don't even put my eye to the viewfinder but a 22in monitor 1m away

Don

-- hide signature --

Olympus EM5, EM5mk2 my toys.
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/9412035244
past toys. k100d, k10d,k7,fz5,fz150,500uz,canon G9, Olympus xz1

Doom Scythe Regular Member • Posts: 141
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality

Tommi K1 wrote:

Auf Reisen wrote:

This could be a game changer for me. I love the dual dial system and use it extensively for quickly changing shutter speed, aperture, ISO, and WB.

Is there any way to set up the EM 10 II so that at the press of a function button, I can move the focus point around with the disks?

Yes. All the OM-D and E-P cameras should be able to do that. You set wanted Fn button (like a either front button in the E-M1, or a Fn1 on E-M10 II as example) to a AF selection.

Pressing the Fn button (no need to hold down) the dual dials operation changes to a AF move operation and half-pressing shutter release button will confirm the position.

Open Menu > Custom > B > Button Function > Fn1. And then set a [---] symbol there for it. There is as well a [---]HP function what does two things by pressing it. One press moves the AF point to Home Point, second press returns it to any previous position you moved it yourself. This way you can example set the home point to be in a center, and then move the AF point around and at fast situation press that Fn button and AF point moves to center, and pressing second time returns it back to previous position.

This allows you example set a HP for one edge of the frame, and then move AF point to other side of frame, and use that Fn button to switch between those quickly.

This modes as well allows you to set two different AF modes, you can have example 9-point at the center as the HP, and then select a own single small to be somewhere else. Pressing Fn button would then switch not just position but the size of the AF too. (Notice, switching to HP point and then moving it around, means it becomes your own selection point, instead being kept as HP point).

The Fn buttons location is the major differential with the OM-D models. The two Fn buttons on E-M1 is what makes a huge difference in operations because you can press them without moving either finger at all from dual-dials. That is where user would need to place the most time critical actions, be it then a AF point mover.

What Olympus has missed is to utilize the 2x2 leveler in deeper way, allowing all Fn buttons to become a B-versions. Meaning going from 1 to 2 would allow to have two different Fn functions on one button.

Learned something new again. Tbis is the part I like about the forums here. On this topic, what is wrong with using the touch screen? I shoot with the LCD most of the time, and touching it seems way faster to me.

 Doom Scythe's gear list:Doom Scythe's gear list
Olympus E-PL7 Olympus E-M5 II Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm F4.0-5.6 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 45mm F1.8 +3 more
vallecano Contributing Member • Posts: 673
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality

I had a little time last night and figured it out, so thanks to all for your advice. This forum can be a big help to most of us.

Earl

 vallecano's gear list:vallecano's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M10 Olympus 12-40mm F2.8 +1 more
OP Tommi K1 Senior Member • Posts: 6,695
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality

vallecano wrote:

I tried setting Fn1 to [---]HP function with my M10 and AF point does not move. Only moves with Fn1 set to [---]. I'm doing something wrong but don't know what.

Any suggestion?

You need to use [---] if you want to start AF point move function. [---]HP function only switch between your custom set AF point position/mode and the stored AF point location.

Example, if you want at any given point quickly get a AF point to center of the screen and in a NORMAL size (not the small or 3x3 grid or full frame), then you can store that center point and mode (normal size) as a HOME POINT. At any given time you press [---]HP button, the AF point will then move to center of the screen and it is set as normal size, regardless where your AF point was moved or what size it was.

After you press [---]HP and it moves to saved position, you can move it again with any ways to a new location (example press [---] and move it, or use D-pad etc) but that is now your new custom position, and if you repress [---]HP then, it will move back to saved position.

You need to separately save the [---]HP point and mode if you want to recall it later.

OP Tommi K1 Senior Member • Posts: 6,695
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality

Donald B wrote:

actually you don't have to do anything in the fn buttons just press the left arrow and your set to go press ok and returns to centre.

Don

The point is that you do not need to move your fingers far from the dual-dials, loosen the grip or anything that D-pad, touch screen, joystick etc would require. That is why the Olympus dual-dial function is superior to any AF joystick because you can quickly move AF point and accurately to different points without losing change to press a trigger even. No need to do multiple pushes or pulls as it is the same dials that goes easily with fingers.

You can even do a tricks like Press [---]HP to set the AF point to center, then press [---] to move AF point four points to right, two points up and that even without looking at the camera at all. You don't even need to remember where your AF point is as you recalled it to center. If you remember where your AF point was, you can move it as well without looking camera at all, just let it hang in your hand arm straight down. This is easy way to example to do quick composition in the time you raise camera on eye by moving AF point from center to right/left edge. And at the time the camera is on your eye, you have already moved AF to wanted edge of the frame.

No D-pad pressing, no touch screen, no joystick etc.

This functionality is the core feature that makes huge difference between E-M1 and other OM-D models, because you have two front Fn buttons, bigger grip and 2x2 leveler. In the E-M1 II they went to wrong direction by turning 2x2 leveler further from the thumb, making it more difficult to switch between 1 and 2 position, and this only because some people are ignorant and wants to use a DSLR style back-button-focus so they want to have one button under thumb to initiate AF, a obsolete method in mirrorless era and E-M1 design.

Then no they have more compromised it with E-M1X by making the front and rear dials smaller, depressed and even further from the fingers. Now you can't rotate the front dial same time as you keep index finger ready to release shutter. You can't do quickly the adjustments as you must move finger away from top of the camera to front of the camera to rotate a small dial in depressed position, just like with Canon and Nikon. Obsolete and terrible design, to pleasure a Canon/Nikon users (and add little extra protection if the camera drops on hard surface that corner first).

OP Tommi K1 Senior Member • Posts: 6,695
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality

Donald B wrote:

Auf Reisen wrote:

Donald B wrote:

actually you don't have to do anything in the fn buttons just press the left arrow and your set to go press ok and returns to centre.

Don

Let me elaborate on this point: pushing the D-pad in any direction (not just left) will activate the AF point selection mode. While in there, the dual control dials shift the AF point as well. Pressing ok (or half-pressing the shutter) confirms the point and you exit AF point selection mode.

The advantage of assigning AF point selection to a different button is that one doesn't have to move one's thumb to the D-pad and then up again to control the back dial.

In the studio I don't hold the camera My bad. I don't even put my eye to the viewfinder but a 22in monitor 1m away

When you have all the time in the world, you don't need a features that are meant for fast situations, for people photographing fast subjects in split moments. That is why there are other features like touch screen AF selection, original D-pad functionality and different AF tracking functions (face, face+eye, subject and object) that minimize requirement to choose AF point or point camera at different positions.

Each feature has different purposes and reasons.

Vahur Krouverk Contributing Member • Posts: 536
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality

Tommi K1 wrote:

Then no they have more compromised it with E-M1X by making the front and rear dials smaller, depressed and even further from the fingers. Now you can't rotate the front dial same time as you keep index finger ready to release shutter. You can't do quickly the adjustments as you must move finger away from top of the camera to front of the camera to rotate a small dial in depressed position, just like with Canon and Nikon. Obsolete and terrible design, to pleasure a Canon/Nikon users (and add little extra protection if the camera drops on hard surface that corner first).

Eh? What? This is better actually: in case of Nikon you are supposed to rotate front dial with middle finger, so you can dial it without removing index finger from shutter release. So it's other way actually: Olympus has current cameras compromized and if leaked pictures are correct then it's fixed in E-M1X.

OP Tommi K1 Senior Member • Posts: 6,695
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality

Vahur Krouverk wrote:

Tommi K1 wrote:

Then no they have more compromised it with E-M1X by making the front and rear dials smaller, depressed and even further from the fingers. Now you can't rotate the front dial same time as you keep index finger ready to release shutter. You can't do quickly the adjustments as you must move finger away from top of the camera to front of the camera to rotate a small dial in depressed position, just like with Canon and Nikon. Obsolete and terrible design, to pleasure a Canon/Nikon users (and add little extra protection if the camera drops on hard surface that corner first).

Eh? What? This is better actually: in case of Nikon you are supposed to rotate front dial with middle finger, so you can dial it without removing index finger from shutter release.

Your middle finger is not accurate, it is not even strong (your strongest finger is little finger) and to do a good movement, you loosen grip with it. And it is designed to be used with a index finger, the middle finger is responsible to hold the camera angle by supporting whole grip:

That is the designed and natural grip .

So it's other way actually: Olympus has current cameras compromized and if leaked pictures are correct then it's fixed in E-M1X.

LOL....

Vahur Krouverk Contributing Member • Posts: 536
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality

Tommi K1 wrote:

Vahur Krouverk wrote:

Tommi K1 wrote:

Then no they have more compromised it with E-M1X by making the front and rear dials smaller, depressed and even further from the fingers. Now you can't rotate the front dial same time as you keep index finger ready to release shutter. You can't do quickly the adjustments as you must move finger away from top of the camera to front of the camera to rotate a small dial in depressed position, just like with Canon and Nikon. Obsolete and terrible design, to pleasure a Canon/Nikon users (and add little extra protection if the camera drops on hard surface that corner first).

Eh? What? This is better actually: in case of Nikon you are supposed to rotate front dial with middle finger, so you can dial it without removing index finger from shutter release.

Your middle finger is not accurate

I don't think that much accuracy is needed for dial turning and it's matter of practice if this is indeed problem.

it is not even strong

For what this strength is needed?

(your strongest finger is little finger)

I would have thought that thumb or middle are strongest, any source for this claim?

and to do a good movement, you loosen grip with it. And it is designed to be used with a index finger, the middle finger is responsible to hold the camera angle by supporting whole grip:

That is the designed and natural grip .

If holding camera only by right hand as in this image then it's probably only way. But when supporting camera/lens from below with left hand not much grip is needed from right hand and fingers are free to handle dials or buttons.

Articles about f5 and f100 (where current Nikon grip design was introduced by Giugiaro) suggest using middle finger for sub command dial. Not very many people know this or use camera this way but if performance is needed then camera with such design is not limiting you.

OP Tommi K1 Senior Member • Posts: 6,695
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality

Vahur Krouverk wrote:

Tommi K1 wrote:

Vahur Krouverk wrote:

Tommi K1 wrote:

Then no they have more compromised it with E-M1X by making the front and rear dials smaller, depressed and even further from the fingers. Now you can't rotate the front dial same time as you keep index finger ready to release shutter. You can't do quickly the adjustments as you must move finger away from top of the camera to front of the camera to rotate a small dial in depressed position, just like with Canon and Nikon. Obsolete and terrible design, to pleasure a Canon/Nikon users (and add little extra protection if the camera drops on hard surface that corner first).

Eh? What? This is better actually: in case of Nikon you are supposed to rotate front dial with middle finger, so you can dial it without removing index finger from shutter release.

Your middle finger is not accurate

I don't think that much accuracy is needed for dial turning and it's matter of practice if this is indeed problem.

It does require lots of accuracy. Just like half-press of the shutter release button.

it is not even strong

For what this strength is needed?

To hold the camera weight, to avoid roll axis rotation when pressing shutter. It is a weak finger and needed for just working together, unlike thumb, index finger and little finger that creates the strongest grip and most accurate grabbing.

(your strongest finger is little finger)

I would have thought that thumb or middle are strongest, any source for this claim?

Yes. Study little human physiology. If you want to get quickly to the point, try to hang without using a little finger. You don't have a strenght to hold on nor muscles to swing.

and to do a good movement, you loosen grip with it. And it is designed to be used with a index finger, the middle finger is responsible to hold the camera angle by supporting whole grip:

That is the designed and natural grip .

If holding camera only by right hand as in this image then it's probably only way. But when supporting camera/lens from below with left hand not much grip is needed from right hand and fingers are free to handle dials or buttons.

No, it is for two hand operations, even more critical on one hand operation but two hand operation is same case, it is for index finger use, not for a middle finger.

Articles about f5 and f100 (where current Nikon grip design was introduced by Giugiaro) suggest using middle finger for sub command dial. Not very many people know this or use camera this way but if performance is needed then camera with such design is not limiting you.

It is a terrible idea and design, why people don't do that. When you move a middle finger top of the dial, you loosen your grip, twist your wrist more upward and you will weaken your index finger for accidental shutter press, incapable well control half-press and stress little finger, and same time weaken the ring finger.

The dial angle is as well only made for the index finger, not for the middle finger. If you want to operate it with a middle finger, it would need to be tilted sideways so that it follows the finger angle to it.

Vahur Krouverk Contributing Member • Posts: 536
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality

Tommi K1 wrote:

Vahur Krouverk wrote:

Articles about f5 and f100 (where current Nikon grip design was introduced by Giugiaro) suggest using middle finger for sub command dial. Not very many people know this or use camera this way but if performance is needed then camera with such design is not limiting you.

It is a terrible idea and design, why people don't do that. When you move a middle finger top of the dial, you loosen your grip, twist your wrist more upward and you will weaken your index finger for accidental shutter press, incapable well control half-press and stress little finger, and same time weaken the ring finger.

The dial angle is as well only made for the index finger, not for the middle finger. If you want to operate it with a middle finger, it would need to be tilted sideways so that it follows the finger angle to it.

Nikon's sub command dial is tilted, since D3.

OP Tommi K1 Senior Member • Posts: 6,695
Re: Olympus OM-D dual-dial functionality

Vahur Krouverk wrote:

Tommi K1 wrote:

Vahur Krouverk wrote:

Articles about f5 and f100 (where current Nikon grip design was introduced by Giugiaro) suggest using middle finger for sub command dial. Not very many people know this or use camera this way but if performance is needed then camera with such design is not limiting you.

It is a terrible idea and design, why people don't do that. When you move a middle finger top of the dial, you loosen your grip, twist your wrist more upward and you will weaken your index finger for accidental shutter press, incapable well control half-press and stress little finger, and same time weaken the ring finger.

The dial angle is as well only made for the index finger, not for the middle finger. If you want to operate it with a middle finger, it would need to be tilted sideways so that it follows the finger angle to it.

Nikon's sub command dial is tilted, since D3.

For index finger.... Not for middle finger.

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