Latest news about FF sigma sensor - continued

Started Dec 12, 2018 | Discussions
Rudi Senior Member • Posts: 1,904
Latest news about FF sigma sensor - continued
1

#FDecker
> Once again.... It seems to be a patent about a higher speed processing pipeline for the existing Foveon 3-layer sensor, NOT a new sensor. <

... and what is talked about here ?

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-sigma-foveon-sensor-patent-discloses-dual-pixel-design/

"Sigma officially confirmed they will announce a new Full Frame L-mount camera in 2019. The current Foveon tech is really outdated and superslow. A newly published Sigma patent discloses a way to make the sensor readout much faster Instead of the classic three layer sensor Sigma is working on a dual layer layout. Every pixels has a green layer The second layer has an alterning pattern of red and blue sensible pixels.

It wouldn’t be a TRUE Foveon sensor anymore but it would help Sigma to overcome the speed issues"

They clearly talk about a DUAL LAYER sensor, also here :

http://thenewcamera.com/dual-layer-foveon-sensor-patent-by-sigma/

Rudi.

LaMeule Regular Member • Posts: 384
Re: Latest news about FF sigma sensor - continued
1

Rudi wrote:

#FDecker
> Once again.... It seems to be a patent about a higher speed processing pipeline for the existing Foveon 3-layer sensor, NOT a new sensor. <

... and what is talked about here ?

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-sigma-foveon-sensor-patent-discloses-dual-pixel-design/

"Sigma officially confirmed they will announce a new Full Frame L-mount camera in 2019. The current Foveon tech is really outdated and superslow. A newly published Sigma patent discloses a way to make the sensor readout much faster Instead of the classic three layer sensor Sigma is working on a dual layer layout. Every pixels has a green layer The second layer has an alterning pattern of red and blue sensible pixels.

It wouldn’t be a TRUE Foveon sensor anymore but it would help Sigma to overcome the speed issues"

They clearly talk about a DUAL LAYER sensor, also here :

http://thenewcamera.com/dual-layer-foveon-sensor-patent-by-sigma/

Rudi.

Here too:

https://www.l-rumors.com/this-patent-might-shows-the-future-foveon-full-frame-dual-layer-tech/

cheers

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xpatUSA
xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 20,394
Re: Latest news about FF sigma sensor - continued
4

Rudi wrote:

#FDecker
> Once again.... It seems to be a patent about a higher speed processing pipeline for the existing Foveon 3-layer sensor, NOT a new sensor. <

... and what is talked about here ?

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-sigma-foveon-sensor-patent-discloses-dual-pixel-design/

"Sigma officially confirmed they will announce a new Full Frame L-mount camera in 2019. The current Foveon tech is really outdated and superslow. A newly published Sigma patent discloses a way to make the sensor readout much faster Instead of the classic three layer sensor Sigma is working on a dual layer layout. Every pixels has a green layer The second layer has an alterning pattern of red and blue sensible pixels.

It wouldn’t be a TRUE Foveon sensor anymore but it would help Sigma to overcome the speed issues"

They clearly talk about a DUAL LAYER sensor, also here :

http://thenewcamera.com/dual-layer-foveon-sensor-patent-by-sigma/

Rudi.

Quoting or linking to third-party opinions and misinterpretations of 'the diagram' is pure hearsay, sorry Rudi. Only a link to where Foveon/Sigma calls it a 'dual-layer' sensor would be credible.

It remains impossible to create "an [alternating] pattern of red and blue sensible pixels" in a single layer in the silicon.

Proof:

http://kronometric.org/phot/sensor/fov/CIC10_Lyon_Hubel_FINAL.pdf

Page 3 refers ...

-- hide signature --

Ted

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OP Rudi Senior Member • Posts: 1,904
Re: Latest news about FF sigma sensor - continued

xpatUSA wrote:

Rudi wrote:

#FDecker
> Once again.... It seems to be a patent about a higher speed processing pipeline for the existing Foveon 3-layer sensor, NOT a new sensor. <

... and what is talked about here ?

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-sigma-foveon-sensor-patent-discloses-dual-pixel-design/

"Sigma officially confirmed they will announce a new Full Frame L-mount camera in 2019. The current Foveon tech is really outdated and superslow. A newly published Sigma patent discloses a way to make the sensor readout much faster Instead of the classic three layer sensor Sigma is working on a dual layer layout. Every pixels has a green layer The second layer has an alterning pattern of red and blue sensible pixels.

It wouldn’t be a TRUE Foveon sensor anymore but it would help Sigma to overcome the speed issues"

They clearly talk about a DUAL LAYER sensor, also here :

http://thenewcamera.com/dual-layer-foveon-sensor-patent-by-sigma/

Rudi.

Quoting or linking to third-party opinions and misinterpretations of 'the diagram' is pure hearsay, sorry Rudi. Only a link to where Foveon/Sigma calls it a 'dual-layer' sensor would be credible.

Agreed !

It remains impossible to create "an [alternating] pattern of red and blue sensible pixels" in a single layer in the silicon.

Proof:

http://kronometric.org/phot/sensor/fov/CIC10_Lyon_Hubel_FINAL.pdf

Page 3 refers ...

That´s why they come up with an alternating dual layer design (BG GR BG) 

Rudi.

FDecker Senior Member • Posts: 2,245
Here you go....
7

Rudi wrote:

#FDecker
> Once again.... It seems to be a patent about a higher speed processing pipeline for the existing Foveon 3-layer sensor, NOT a new sensor. <

... and what is talked about here ?

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-sigma-foveon-sensor-patent-discloses-dual-pixel-design/

"Sigma officially confirmed they will announce a new Full Frame L-mount camera in 2019. The current Foveon tech is really outdated and superslow. A newly published Sigma patent discloses a way to make the sensor readout much faster Instead of the classic three layer sensor Sigma is working on a dual layer layout. Every pixels has a green layer The second layer has an alterning pattern of red and blue sensible pixels.

It wouldn’t be a TRUE Foveon sensor anymore but it would help Sigma to overcome the speed issues"

They clearly talk about a DUAL LAYER sensor, also here :

http://thenewcamera.com/dual-layer-foveon-sensor-patent-by-sigma/

Rudi.

I still accept that I may have misinterpreted the patent. But to me it seems as if the authors of the web sites you mentioned didn't read the patent. I assume you didn't do as well, right?

Here is the first claim (go to the Japanese patent web page and get the English translated text):

"[Claim 1]
In an image signal processing method which processes a picture signal of a lamination type which a photoelectric conversion layer of three or more layers detected using a lamination type solid state image pickup device laminated on the upper part of a substrate to 1 pixel,
A picture signal reading section which reads a two-layer picture signal for every pixel of the aforementioned lamination type solid state image pickup device...." (my accentuation of text in bold)

And it goes on like this. They read two layers of a Foveon sensor, accept a degradation in color resolution and gain speed in the processing pipeline.

Hornbrille
Hornbrille Regular Member • Posts: 371
Re: Latest news about FF sigma sensor - continued

IMHO the patent describes both - a new sensor and the signal processing for it. It doesn't make sense to suggest a new sensor concept without showing how a proper image is derived from it.

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FDecker Senior Member • Posts: 2,245
Re: Latest news about FF sigma sensor - continued
1

Hornbrille wrote:

IMHO the patent describes both - a new sensor and the signal processing for it. It doesn't make sense to suggest a new sensor concept without showing how a proper image is derived from it.

Does your opinion come from reading the patent?

Ceistinne Senior Member • Posts: 2,790
Re: Latest news about FF sigma sensor - continued
2

To all concerned. This conversation could go  on forever. The patent as seen is a real thing.  What the sensor will be like in reality is pure conjecture. There may be no new sensor and no one knows what sensor will be used in the in development Full Frame camera. I might be a completely new one like this rumoured one or a Q type one,  maybe a modified version of the current Q.

We will know only when the camera is announced, probably at CP + in February.

S

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Hornbrille
Hornbrille Regular Member • Posts: 371
Re: Latest news about FF sigma sensor - continued

FDecker wrote:

Hornbrille wrote:

IMHO the patent describes both - a new sensor and the signal processing for it. It doesn't make sense to suggest a new sensor concept without showing how a proper image is derived from it.

Does your opinion come from reading the patent?

Yes, but it's just an opinion. The processing seems to suggest a matching sensor but there is no proper description for such a sensor in the patent.

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Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 16,508
Re: Latest news about FF sigma sensor - continued

xpatUSA wrote:

Rudi wrote:

#FDecker
> Once again.... It seems to be a patent about a higher speed processing pipeline for the existing Foveon 3-layer sensor, NOT a new sensor. <

... and what is talked about here ?

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-sigma-foveon-sensor-patent-discloses-dual-pixel-design/

"Sigma officially confirmed they will announce a new Full Frame L-mount camera in 2019. The current Foveon tech is really outdated and superslow. A newly published Sigma patent discloses a way to make the sensor readout much faster Instead of the classic three layer sensor Sigma is working on a dual layer layout. Every pixels has a green layer The second layer has an alterning pattern of red and blue sensible pixels.

It wouldn’t be a TRUE Foveon sensor anymore but it would help Sigma to overcome the speed issues"

They clearly talk about a DUAL LAYER sensor, also here :

http://thenewcamera.com/dual-layer-foveon-sensor-patent-by-sigma/

Rudi.

Quoting or linking to third-party opinions and misinterpretations of 'the diagram' is pure hearsay, sorry Rudi. Only a link to where Foveon/Sigma calls it a 'dual-layer' sensor would be credible.

It remains impossible to create "an [alternating] pattern of red and blue sensible pixels" in a single layer in the silicon.

Proof:

http://kronometric.org/phot/sensor/fov/CIC10_Lyon_Hubel_FINAL.pdf

Page 3 refers ...

I agree Ted. If the sensor really does only capture data from two layers at each pixel location, that does not mean it is a two layer sensor.

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Scott Barton Kennelly
http://www.bigprintphotos.com

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Scottelly
Scottelly Forum Pro • Posts: 16,508
Re: Latest news about FF sigma sensor - continued
1

Ceistinne wrote:

To all concerned. This conversation could go on forever. The patent as seen is a real thing. What the sensor will be like in reality is pure conjecture. There may be no new sensor and no one knows what sensor will be used in the in development Full Frame camera. I might be a completely new one like this rumoured one or a Q type one, maybe a modified version of the current Q.

We will know only when the camera is announced, probably at CP + in February.

S

I am still very intrigued.

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http://www.bigprintphotos.com

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Ceistinne Senior Member • Posts: 2,790
Re: Latest news about FF sigma sensor - continued
1

Scottelly wrote:

Ceistinne wrote:

To all concerned. This conversation could go on forever. The patent as seen is a real thing. What the sensor will be like in reality is pure conjecture. There may be no new sensor and no one knows what sensor will be used in the in development Full Frame camera. I might be a completely new one like this rumoured one or a Q type one, maybe a modified version of the current Q.

We will know only when the camera is announced, probably at CP + in February.

S

I am still very intrigued.

Scott,

So am I, but I see no point in useless conjecture. What we might think will be and what will be, we just have to wait and see.

S

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Kim Yee Contributing Member • Posts: 513
Re: Latest news about FF sigma sensor - continued

No matter, I am still pretty happy that there will be a short flange proper mirrorless camera.

My RGB back for tech cam is ever so slightly closer to reality, albeit a slightly dented one (2 layer).

Happy days ahead.

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joe173 Contributing Member • Posts: 500
Re: Latest news about FF sigma sensor - continued
1

Ceistinne wrote:

Scottelly wrote:

Ceistinne wrote:

To all concerned. This conversation could go on forever. The patent as seen is a real thing. What the sensor will be like in reality is pure conjecture. There may be no new sensor and no one knows what sensor will be used in the in development Full Frame camera. I might be a completely new one like this rumoured one or a Q type one, maybe a modified version of the current Q.

We will know only when the camera is announced, probably at CP + in February.

S

I am still very intrigued.

Scott,

So am I, but I see no point in useless conjecture. What we might think will be and what will be, we just have to wait and see.

S

Exactly. There might be more than one sensor used in the same camera, just different version of the same model. Why not. It's being done. To get all worked up based not even on vaporware, a piece of paper, is asinine. Pure bullocks. Put the cart before the horse. My guess. It's the same sensor as the Q, only with larger pixel size and somewhat better tolerances and quality control, better noise profile, ISO and color management, etc.

I.B. Regular Member • Posts: 442
Re: Latest news about FF sigma sensor - continued
2

Double layer array as shown in the patent

In a multi layer foveon like sensor it is not possible that there are chromatically sensitive green pixels "G" on the top surface (as shown on the left in the drawing) on the other hand, data can also be partially taken from single layers / pixels of a classic foveon sensor, so I think the patent does not describes a new sensor but the procedure to get a high speed movie to be used only for a faster and more realistic EVF in the next FF camera.... for this purpose, even if the result was a pseudo Bayer image configuration, I think it would not matter.

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Greetings from Italy.
Italo B.

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bizi clop
bizi clop Contributing Member • Posts: 549
Re: Latest news about FF sigma sensor - continued

I tried out a very primitive reconstruction from full-res green and halved-vertical-resolution red and blue channels. The image is not mine, but I forgot who made it, I hope he forgives me. First image is the original (I worked with a reduced resolution image by 4x4 binning), second is the attempted reconstruction. Of course a properly developed method would give much better results I think:

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OP Rudi Senior Member • Posts: 1,904
Re: Here you go....
1

FDecker wrote:

Rudi wrote:

#FDecker
> Once again.... It seems to be a patent about a higher speed processing pipeline for the existing Foveon 3-layer sensor, NOT a new sensor. <

... and what is talked about here ?

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-sigma-foveon-sensor-patent-discloses-dual-pixel-design/

"Sigma officially confirmed they will announce a new Full Frame L-mount camera in 2019. The current Foveon tech is really outdated and superslow. A newly published Sigma patent discloses a way to make the sensor readout much faster Instead of the classic three layer sensor Sigma is working on a dual layer layout. Every pixels has a green layer The second layer has an alterning pattern of red and blue sensible pixels.

It wouldn’t be a TRUE Foveon sensor anymore but it would help Sigma to overcome the speed issues"

They clearly talk about a DUAL LAYER sensor, also here :

http://thenewcamera.com/dual-layer-foveon-sensor-patent-by-sigma/

Rudi.

I still accept that I may have misinterpreted the patent. But to me it seems as if the authors of the web sites you mentioned didn't read the patent. I assume you didn't do as well, right?

Here is the first claim (go to the Japanese patent web page and get the English translated text):

"[Claim 1]
In an image signal processing method which processes a picture signal of a lamination type which a photoelectric conversion layer of three or more layers detected using a lamination type solid state image pickup device laminated on the upper part of a substrate to 1 pixel,
A picture signal reading section which reads a two-layer picture signal for every pixel of the aforementioned lamination type solid state image pickup device...." (my accentuation of text in bold)

And it goes on like this. They read two layers of a Foveon sensor, accept a degradation in color resolution and gain speed in the processing pipeline.

You´re right so far, but wouldn´t that end up in a lot of mathematical rounding errors which lead to a lot more guesswork like in a Bayer sensor, while giving up the Foveon direct image principles ?

Rudi.

xpatUSA
xpatUSA Forum Pro • Posts: 20,394
Re: Here you go....

Rudi wrote:

FDecker wrote:

Rudi wrote:

#FDecker
> Once again.... It seems to be a patent about a higher speed processing pipeline for the existing Foveon 3-layer sensor, NOT a new sensor. <

... and what is talked about here ?

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-sigma-foveon-sensor-patent-discloses-dual-pixel-design/

"Sigma officially confirmed they will announce a new Full Frame L-mount camera in 2019. The current Foveon tech is really outdated and superslow. A newly published Sigma patent discloses a way to make the sensor readout much faster Instead of the classic three layer sensor Sigma is working on a dual layer layout. Every pixels has a green layer The second layer has an alterning pattern of red and blue sensible pixels.

It wouldn’t be a TRUE Foveon sensor anymore but it would help Sigma to overcome the speed issues"

They clearly talk about a DUAL LAYER sensor, also here :

http://thenewcamera.com/dual-layer-foveon-sensor-patent-by-sigma/

Rudi.

I still accept that I may have misinterpreted the patent. But to me it seems as if the authors of the web sites you mentioned didn't read the patent. I assume you didn't do as well, right?

Here is the first claim (go to the Japanese patent web page and get the English translated text):

"[Claim 1]
In an image signal processing method which processes a picture signal of a lamination type which a photoelectric conversion layer of three or more layers detected using a lamination type solid state image pickup device laminated on the upper part of a substrate to 1 pixel,
A picture signal reading section which reads a two-layer picture signal for every pixel of the aforementioned lamination type solid state image pickup device...." (my accentuation of text in bold)

And it goes on like this. They read two layers of a Foveon sensor, accept a degradation in color resolution and gain speed in the processing pipeline.

You´re right so far, but wouldn´t that end up in a lot of mathematical rounding errors

Why? Please explain how ...

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Ted

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FDecker Senior Member • Posts: 2,245
Re: Here you go....

Rudi wrote:

FDecker wrote:

Rudi wrote:

#FDecker
> Once again.... It seems to be a patent about a higher speed processing pipeline for the existing Foveon 3-layer sensor, NOT a new sensor. <

... and what is talked about here ?

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-sigma-foveon-sensor-patent-discloses-dual-pixel-design/

"Sigma officially confirmed they will announce a new Full Frame L-mount camera in 2019. The current Foveon tech is really outdated and superslow. A newly published Sigma patent discloses a way to make the sensor readout much faster Instead of the classic three layer sensor Sigma is working on a dual layer layout. Every pixels has a green layer The second layer has an alterning pattern of red and blue sensible pixels.

It wouldn’t be a TRUE Foveon sensor anymore but it would help Sigma to overcome the speed issues"

They clearly talk about a DUAL LAYER sensor, also here :

http://thenewcamera.com/dual-layer-foveon-sensor-patent-by-sigma/

Rudi.

I still accept that I may have misinterpreted the patent. But to me it seems as if the authors of the web sites you mentioned didn't read the patent. I assume you didn't do as well, right?

Here is the first claim (go to the Japanese patent web page and get the English translated text):

"[Claim 1]
In an image signal processing method which processes a picture signal of a lamination type which a photoelectric conversion layer of three or more layers detected using a lamination type solid state image pickup device laminated on the upper part of a substrate to 1 pixel,
A picture signal reading section which reads a two-layer picture signal for every pixel of the aforementioned lamination type solid state image pickup device...." (my accentuation of text in bold)

And it goes on like this. They read two layers of a Foveon sensor, accept a degradation in color resolution and gain speed in the processing pipeline.

You´re right so far, but wouldn´t that end up in a lot of mathematical rounding errors which lead to a lot more guesswork like in a Bayer sensor, while giving up the Foveon direct image principles ?

Rudi.

I wouldn‘t call it mathematical rounding errors, but yes, reducing the amount of color information leads to more guesswork. Somewhere between Foveon and Bayer.

OP Rudi Senior Member • Posts: 1,904
Re: Here you go....
1

xpatUSA wrote:

Rudi wrote:

FDecker wrote:

Rudi wrote:

#FDecker
> Once again.... It seems to be a patent about a higher speed processing pipeline for the existing Foveon 3-layer sensor, NOT a new sensor. <

... and what is talked about here ?

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/new-sigma-foveon-sensor-patent-discloses-dual-pixel-design/

"Sigma officially confirmed they will announce a new Full Frame L-mount camera in 2019. The current Foveon tech is really outdated and superslow. A newly published Sigma patent discloses a way to make the sensor readout much faster Instead of the classic three layer sensor Sigma is working on a dual layer layout. Every pixels has a green layer The second layer has an alterning pattern of red and blue sensible pixels.

It wouldn’t be a TRUE Foveon sensor anymore but it would help Sigma to overcome the speed issues"

They clearly talk about a DUAL LAYER sensor, also here :

http://thenewcamera.com/dual-layer-foveon-sensor-patent-by-sigma/

Rudi.

I still accept that I may have misinterpreted the patent. But to me it seems as if the authors of the web sites you mentioned didn't read the patent. I assume you didn't do as well, right?

Here is the first claim (go to the Japanese patent web page and get the English translated text):

"[Claim 1]
In an image signal processing method which processes a picture signal of a lamination type which a photoelectric conversion layer of three or more layers detected using a lamination type solid state image pickup device laminated on the upper part of a substrate to 1 pixel,
A picture signal reading section which reads a two-layer picture signal for every pixel of the aforementioned lamination type solid state image pickup device...." (my accentuation of text in bold)

And it goes on like this. They read two layers of a Foveon sensor, accept a degradation in color resolution and gain speed in the processing pipeline.

You´re right so far, but wouldn´t that end up in a lot of mathematical rounding errors

Why? Please explain how ...

" What is claimed is:

1. An image signal processing method for processing a stacked type image signal detected by using a stacked solid state image pickup device in which three or more photoelectric conversion layers are laminated on a substrate.

An image signal reading section that reads two layers of image signals for each pixel of the stacked solid state image pickup element.

An image signal estimating unit that estimates an image signal of a layer of a difference between image signals of three or more layers detected by a photoelectric conversion layer stacked on the pixel and two readout image signals read out by the image signal reading unit.

And the estimated image signal estimated by the image signal estimating unit is estimated using the readout image signal of the two layers read out by the image signal reading unit, wherein the two-layer image signal read out by the image signal reading unit has a combination of two or more sets of the photoelectric conversion layers.

2. The method according to claim 1,

The multilayer solid-state imaging device according to claim 1, wherein the stacked solid-state imaging device comprises three layers of photoelectric conversion layers, and colors detected by the respective photoelectric conversion layers are red (R), green (G), and blue (B) and said image signal processing method.

3. The method according to claim 2,

The image signal according to claim 1 or claim 2, wherein the image signal of one layer among the read-out image signals of the two layers read out to the image signal reading unit is a green (G) image signal processing method.

4. The method according to claim 3,

Wherein the estimated image signal comprises:
Out of the two readout image signals read out from the peripheral pixels of the pixel to the image signal readout unit,

The image signal processing method according to claim 1, wherein the estimated image signal is estimated using an image signal having the same color as the estimated image signal from the peripheral pixels of the relevant pixel.

5. The method according to claim 1, Wherein the estimated image signal comprises:

An image signal of the same color as one of the readout image signals of the two layers read out by the image signal reading section from the pixel and between the estimated image signal and an image signal of the same color.

A color difference of two layers of image signals is calculated for each pixel, by adding the average value of the color difference to the image signal of the same color as one of the readout image signals of the two layers read from the pixel.

The image signal estimating unit may include:

The image signal processing according to any one of claims 1 to 3, wherein the image signal processing unit estimates an image signal which is detected by the photoelectric conversion layer stacked on the pixel but has not been read by the image signal reading unit Method.

6. The method according to claim 1,

Wherein the estimated image signal comprises:
From the peripheral pixels of the relevant pixel

An image signal of the same color as one of the readout image signals of the two layers read out by the image signal reading section from the pixel and between the estimated image signal and an image signal of the same color

A color ratio of two layers of image signals is calculated for each pixel, by integrating the average value of the color ratios in one of the readout image signals of the two layers read out from the pixel,

The image signal estimating unit may include:

The image signal processing according to any one of claims 1 to 3, wherein the image signal processing unit estimates an image signal which is detected by the photoelectric conversion layer stacked on the pixel but has not been read by the image signal reading unit Method.

7. The method according to claim 6,

An image pickup apparatus comprising the image signal processing method according to any one of claims 1 to 6.

8. The method according to claim 7,

What is claimed is:

1. An image signal processing apparatus for processing a stacked type image signal detected by using a stacked solid state image pickup device in which three or more photoelectric conversion layers are laminated on a substrate.

An image signal reading section that reads two layers of image signals for each pixel of the stacked solid state image pickup element.

An image signal rearrangement unit for rearranging the image signal into a Bayer type image signal of the read-out two-layer image signal read out by the image signal reading unit.

And wherein two or more sets of the image signals of the two layers read out by the image signal reading section are combined."

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Japanese Unexamined Patent Application Publication No. 2018-195961 (P2018-195961A)

Doesn´t sound like a "FOVEON Direct Image Sensor" anymore...

Rudi.

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