There will be a brief outage for database maintenance in approximately 2 hour(s) 46 minutes

RX100M6, speeding trains

Started Dec 9, 2018 | Discussions
OP Digital Nigel Veteran Member • Posts: 9,490
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains

Digital Shutterbug wrote:

KeepCalm wrote:

... there is no pleasing the molecular scientists looking at the results from the microscopic analysis.

I love it. "Molecular scientists", as applied to the pixel peepers. Good one!!!

Talking of which, I've just been doing some pixel-peeping of other images. I've just bought Gary Friedman's book on the RX100M6, and he provides a link to a pair of well-lit, studio images he shot of the same subject, a teddy bear.

One was taken with the RX100M6, and the other with his A7 with 70-200 f/4 lens. He invites people to compare the images and see if they can guess which was which (he forgot to remove the exif data or change the images sizes, so it's easy to cheat).

He makes the point that if you have to resort to careful, 100% side-by-side comparisons, in a sense the RX100 has won anyway, even if its image isn't actually the better one.  I duly did the test, and agree that the differences are minimal.  In fact, because of the greater DoF with the RX100, more of it is in sharp focus than the A7 image. So, overall, I actually prefer the RX100 image!

I separately did a brick wall test of the RX100M6 and my TZ100. Interestingly, the differences between these two images are much more obvious. At both its 200 and 250mm equiv zooms, the TZ100 images has significantly less resolution than the RX100M6. The RX100M6 is sharper in the centre, and much sharper at the edges. It's what I expected, but it was good to see it confirmed. You didn't have to cheat to spot the soft TZ100 images.

So, the RX100M6 image quality is much closer to that of the full-frame A7 than it is to the supposedly similar TZ100!

 Digital Nigel's gear list:Digital Nigel's gear list
Panasonic FZ1000 Canon PowerShot G7 X Nikon Coolpix P900 Panasonic ZS100 Sony RX10 III +18 more
Digital Shutterbug Veteran Member • Posts: 4,130
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains

Digital Nigel wrote:

Digital Shutterbug wrote:

KeepCalm wrote:

... there is no pleasing the molecular scientists looking at the results from the microscopic analysis.

I love it. "Molecular scientists", as applied to the pixel peepers. Good one!!!

Talking of which, I've just been doing some pixel-peeping of other images. I've just bought Gary Friedman's book on the RX100M6, and he provides a link to a pair of well-lit, studio images he shot of the same subject, a teddy bear.

One was taken with the RX100M6, and the other with his A7 with 70-200 f/4 lens. He invites people to compare the images and see if they can guess which was which (he forgot to remove the exif data or change the images sizes, so it's easy to cheat).

He makes the point that if you have to resort to careful, 100% side-by-side comparisons, in a sense the RX100 has won anyway, even if its image isn't actually the better one. I duly did the test, and agree that the differences are minimal. In fact, because of the greater DoF with the RX100, more of it is in sharp focus than the A7 image. So, overall, I actually prefer the RX100 image!

I separately did a brick wall test of the RX100M6 and my TZ100. Interestingly, the differences between these two images are much more obvious. At both its 200 and 250mm equiv zooms, the TZ100 images has significantly less resolution than the RX100M6. The RX100M6 is sharper in the centre, and much sharper at the edges. It's what I expected, but it was good to see it confirmed. You didn't have to cheat to spot the soft TZ100 images.

So, the RX100M6 image quality is much closer to that of the full-frame A7 than it is to the supposedly similar TZ100!

I’ve not seen this particular test from Gary, but he has done other similar tests in the past. Of course, he does these tests in good lighting, so the smaller sensor cameras are not struggling to provide their best. Most realize that under adverse conditions the smaller sensor will not be at its best. That’s a trade off I’m generally willing to accept. Under these conditions, it is quite surprising how well the RX10 and RX100 series cameras images hold up to much more expensive gear. I think a lot of the credit goes to the superb lenses Sony has used in all of these cameras.

That choice in lenses probably contributes greatly when comparing to other brands of cameras that would otherwise be considered similar due to their size. Sony has put the best components in these smaller cameras, when other manufacturers might have taken a different approach on the small cameras. Obviously, that makes for a premium price, compared to the competitors. It all depends on what you expect, and what you’re willing to spend.

-- hide signature --

Steve

OP Digital Nigel Veteran Member • Posts: 9,490
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains

Digital Shutterbug wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Digital Shutterbug wrote:

KeepCalm wrote:

... there is no pleasing the molecular scientists looking at the results from the microscopic analysis.

I love it. "Molecular scientists", as applied to the pixel peepers. Good one!!!

Talking of which, I've just been doing some pixel-peeping of other images. I've just bought Gary Friedman's book on the RX100M6, and he provides a link to a pair of well-lit, studio images he shot of the same subject, a teddy bear.

One was taken with the RX100M6, and the other with his A7 with 70-200 f/4 lens. He invites people to compare the images and see if they can guess which was which (he forgot to remove the exif data or change the images sizes, so it's easy to cheat).

He makes the point that if you have to resort to careful, 100% side-by-side comparisons, in a sense the RX100 has won anyway, even if its image isn't actually the better one. I duly did the test, and agree that the differences are minimal. In fact, because of the greater DoF with the RX100, more of it is in sharp focus than the A7 image. So, overall, I actually prefer the RX100 image!

I separately did a brick wall test of the RX100M6 and my TZ100. Interestingly, the differences between these two images are much more obvious. At both its 200 and 250mm equiv zooms, the TZ100 images has significantly less resolution than the RX100M6. The RX100M6 is sharper in the centre, and much sharper at the edges. It's what I expected, but it was good to see it confirmed. You didn't have to cheat to spot the soft TZ100 images.

So, the RX100M6 image quality is much closer to that of the full-frame A7 than it is to the supposedly similar TZ100!

I’ve not seen this particular test from Gary, but he has done other similar tests in the past. Of course, he does these tests in good lighting, so the smaller sensor cameras are not struggling to provide their best.

Yes, the lighting is good, and the ISO 125.

Most realize that under adverse conditions the smaller sensor will not be at its best. That’s a trade off I’m generally willing to accept. Under these conditions, it is quite surprising how well the RX10 and RX100 series cameras images hold up to much more expensive gear. I think a lot of the credit goes to the superb lenses Sony has used in all of these cameras.

Yes, that's where the RX cameras stand out. I get better images with my RX10M3 than my A6500, because the lens is better than my E-mount zooms (it's almost the equal of a high quality E-mount prime, which is extraordinary). The A6500 obviously has a superior sensor, but loses out on the lenses.

That choice in lenses probably contributes greatly when comparing to other brands of cameras that would otherwise be considered similar due to their size. Sony has put the best components in these smaller cameras, when other manufacturers might have taken a different approach on the small cameras.

Panasonic certainly cuts corners on its lenses and assembly quality, compared to Sony. I wouldn't have bought the RX100M6 if I was satisfied with the lens on the TZ100 (in other respects, it's a decent camera).

Obviously, that makes for a premium price, compared to the competitors. It all depends on what you expect, and what you’re willing to spend.

Yup. Sony has managed to create a genuine premium 1" sensor category. Panasonic has gone downmarket, Canon seems to have almost lost interest, and Nikon did give up.

 Digital Nigel's gear list:Digital Nigel's gear list
Panasonic FZ1000 Canon PowerShot G7 X Nikon Coolpix P900 Panasonic ZS100 Sony RX10 III +18 more
DUTCH van Atlanta Senior Member • Posts: 1,653
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains

Digital Nigel wrote:

Incidentally, I've extracted the embedded small JPEG from the RAW file. This represents what an OOC JPEG would have looked like:

This is the unedited, small OOC JPEG embedded in the RAW file. Somehow, the camera managed to attain sharp focus on the moving train in near darkness.

Now you can see why I'm so impressed with its focusing abilities.

And no wonder the shadows look noisy when you brighten it up!

My Canon G3X achieved similar results at night shooting a moving push boat on the Mississippi River at ISO 12800. It's really quite amazing what some of these cameras can achieve.

 DUTCH van Atlanta's gear list:DUTCH van Atlanta's gear list
Sony RX10 IV Sony RX100 VI +2 more
(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,265
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains

DUTCH van Atlanta wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Incidentally, I've extracted the embedded small JPEG from the RAW file. This represents what an OOC JPEG would have looked like:

This is the unedited, small OOC JPEG embedded in the RAW file. Somehow, the camera managed to attain sharp focus on the moving train in near darkness.

Now you can see why I'm so impressed with its focusing abilities.

And no wonder the shadows look noisy when you brighten it up!

My Canon G3X achieved something similar at night shooting a push boat on the Mississippi River at ISO 12800. It's really quite amazing what some of the cameras can achieve.

As a G3X owner I have to admit that the tug boat probably is more the sort of subject for the focusing speed than this train but the IQ is very good really for the price and I remember that excellent image being posted.

sludge21017
sludge21017 Senior Member • Posts: 1,955
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains

Digital Nigel wrote:

sludge21017 wrote:

It kind of looks like the trains are parked.

Have you noticed the shutter speeds?

Yes, 1/500 and 1/400?  I don't even see any motion blur at those slow shutter speeds.

OP Digital Nigel Veteran Member • Posts: 9,490
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains

sludge21017 wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

sludge21017 wrote:

It kind of looks like the trains are parked.

Have you noticed the shutter speeds?

Yes, 1/500 and 1/400? I don't even see any motion blur at those slow shutter speeds.

The trains certainly weren't parked. They were running non-stop on the fast (non-platformed) lines through the station. They are 125mph trains, but were running much slower than that as they went through the station. I'd have used a lower shutter speed had I known.

 Digital Nigel's gear list:Digital Nigel's gear list
Panasonic FZ1000 Canon PowerShot G7 X Nikon Coolpix P900 Panasonic ZS100 Sony RX10 III +18 more
DUTCH van Atlanta Senior Member • Posts: 1,653
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains

Digital Nigel wrote:

The trains certainly weren't parked. They were running non-stop on the fast (non-platformed) lines through the station. They are 125mph trains, but were running much slower than that as they went through the station. I'd have used a lower shutter speed had I known.

I liked your original post in this thread.  At times this forum certainly seems to have more than its share of cynics. 

 DUTCH van Atlanta's gear list:DUTCH van Atlanta's gear list
Sony RX10 IV Sony RX100 VI +2 more
sludge21017
sludge21017 Senior Member • Posts: 1,955
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains

DUTCH van Atlanta wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

The trains certainly weren't parked. They were running non-stop on the fast (non-platformed) lines through the station. They are 125mph trains, but were running much slower than that as they went through the station. I'd have used a lower shutter speed had I known.

I liked your original post in this thread. At times this forum certainly seems to have more than its share of cynics.

That is true.

But the subject was "Speeding Trains"... I had hopes for trains really moving fast.

Maybe "125mph trains pulling into station" would've worked better.

That is all.

OP Digital Nigel Veteran Member • Posts: 9,490
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains

sludge21017 wrote:

DUTCH van Atlanta wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

The trains certainly weren't parked. They were running non-stop on the fast (non-platformed) lines through the station. They are 125mph trains, but were running much slower than that as they went through the station. I'd have used a lower shutter speed had I known.

I liked your original post in this thread. At times this forum certainly seems to have more than its share of cynics.

That is true.

But the subject was "Speeding Trains"... I had hopes for trains really moving fast.

Maybe "125mph trains pulling into station" would've worked better.

Here's a few more pics. The first shows the same 10-car train departing from the station:

The same train on its way out

The exif data shows that they the pictures were taken 21 seconds apart. I calculate that the train will have moved about 250m in that time. That's about 43 km/h or about 27mph. So, not really speeding (for a 125mph train), but hardly parked either. It's a lot faster than a running dog or sports (wo)man.

Here's a couple of pictures I took a little earlier, when the light was better (but still poor). Those trains look like they're running a bit faster:

Note the falling rain, in this picture taken a few minutes before sunset

This one is probably going a bit faster

 Digital Nigel's gear list:Digital Nigel's gear list
Panasonic FZ1000 Canon PowerShot G7 X Nikon Coolpix P900 Panasonic ZS100 Sony RX10 III +18 more
Bill Borne
Bill Borne Forum Pro • Posts: 40,808
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains

Have you ever tried panning with trains? Not sure how it would do in low light tho?

-- hide signature --

Bill
"Life's Too Short to Worry about the BS!"
So I Choose my Battles
Click for Wild Man's Photos
Using Rx10 IV at Present

 Bill Borne's gear list:Bill Borne's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-R1 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX400V Sony Cyber-shot DSC-H5 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 Sony RX100 III +4 more
OP Digital Nigel Veteran Member • Posts: 9,490
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains

Bill Borne wrote:

Have you ever tried panning with trains? Not sure how it would do in low light tho?

I was panning in those shots.

And in these:

One problem with these fixed lens cameras is that you can't zoom while also taking pictures, so you can't zoom as the train gets nearer (which would have improved that last shot). My E-mount cameras are better in those circumstances, as you can zoom out as the train comes closer.

 Digital Nigel's gear list:Digital Nigel's gear list
Panasonic FZ1000 Canon PowerShot G7 X Nikon Coolpix P900 Panasonic ZS100 Sony RX10 III +18 more
Bill Borne
Bill Borne Forum Pro • Posts: 40,808
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains

Digital Nigel wrote:

Bill Borne wrote:

Have you ever tried panning with trains? Not sure how it would do in low light tho?

I was panning in these shots. And in these:

One problem with these fixed lens cameras is that you can't zoom while also taking pictures, so you can't zoom as the train gets nearer. My E-mount cameras are better in those circumstances, as you can zoom out as the train comes closer.

To get the sense of motion when panning I think you needed a slower shutter speed?

-- hide signature --

Bill
"Life's Too Short to Worry about the BS!"
So I Choose my Battles
Click for Wild Man's Photos
Using Rx10 IV at Present

 Bill Borne's gear list:Bill Borne's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-R1 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX400V Sony Cyber-shot DSC-H5 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 Sony RX100 III +4 more
OP Digital Nigel Veteran Member • Posts: 9,490
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains
1

Bill Borne wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Bill Borne wrote:

Have you ever tried panning with trains? Not sure how it would do in low light tho?

I was panning in these shots. And in these:

One problem with these fixed lens cameras is that you can't zoom while also taking pictures, so you can't zoom as the train gets nearer. My E-mount cameras are better in those circumstances, as you can zoom out as the train comes closer.

To get the sense of motion when panning I think you needed a slower shutter speed?

Yes, probably, but then people complain that the shots aren't sharp. You can't win. But the I think the smoke from the chimney does a pretty good job of conveying motion.

 Digital Nigel's gear list:Digital Nigel's gear list
Panasonic FZ1000 Canon PowerShot G7 X Nikon Coolpix P900 Panasonic ZS100 Sony RX10 III +18 more
Bill Borne
Bill Borne Forum Pro • Posts: 40,808
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains
1

Digital Nigel wrote:

Bill Borne wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Bill Borne wrote:

Have you ever tried panning with trains? Not sure how it would do in low light tho?

I was panning in these shots. And in these:

One problem with these fixed lens cameras is that you can't zoom while also taking pictures, so you can't zoom as the train gets nearer. My E-mount cameras are better in those circumstances, as you can zoom out as the train comes closer.

To get the sense of motion when panning I think you needed a slower shutter speed?

Yes, probably, but then people complain that the shots aren't sharp. You can't win. But the I think the smoke from the chimney does a pretty good job of conveying motion.

Not perfect bu close enough?

-- hide signature --

Bill
"Life's Too Short to Worry about the BS!"
So I Choose my Battles
Click for Wild Man's Photos
Using Rx10 IV at Present

 Bill Borne's gear list:Bill Borne's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-R1 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX400V Sony Cyber-shot DSC-H5 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 Sony RX100 III +4 more
Horacecoker Senior Member • Posts: 2,670
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains
1

Digital Nigel wrote:

Bill Borne wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Bill Borne wrote:

Have you ever tried panning with trains? Not sure how it would do in low light tho?

I was panning in these shots. And in these:

One problem with these fixed lens cameras is that you can't zoom while also taking pictures, so you can't zoom as the train gets nearer. My E-mount cameras are better in those circumstances, as you can zoom out as the train comes closer.

To get the sense of motion when panning I think you needed a slower shutter speed?

Yes, probably, but then people complain that the shots aren't sharp. You can't win. But the I think the smoke from the chimney does a pretty good job of conveying motion.

That could be caused by wind. Bill's right, good as the shots are they don't convey motion because the background is pin sharp and the wheels are pin sharp. To all intents and purposes the trains could be perfectly stationary.

This is where your chosen colour profile shines.

David

 Horacecoker's gear list:Horacecoker's gear list
Sony RX100 III Sony RX10 IV Sony a7R III Sony a6600 Sony FE 55mm F1.8 +2 more
Horacecoker Senior Member • Posts: 2,670
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains

Bill Borne wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Bill Borne wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Bill Borne wrote:

Have you ever tried panning with trains? Not sure how it would do in low light tho?

I was panning in these shots. And in these:

One problem with these fixed lens cameras is that you can't zoom while also taking pictures, so you can't zoom as the train gets nearer. My E-mount cameras are better in those circumstances, as you can zoom out as the train comes closer.

To get the sense of motion when panning I think you needed a slower shutter speed?

Yes, probably, but then people complain that the shots aren't sharp. You can't win. But the I think the smoke from the chimney does a pretty good job of conveying motion.

Not perfect bu close enough?

For 1/15th of a second that's very good indeed, Bill.

David

 Horacecoker's gear list:Horacecoker's gear list
Sony RX100 III Sony RX10 IV Sony a7R III Sony a6600 Sony FE 55mm F1.8 +2 more
(unknown member) Senior Member • Posts: 2,265
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains

Digital Nigel wrote:

Bill Borne wrote:

Have you ever tried panning with trains? Not sure how it would do in low light tho?

I was panning in those shots.

And in these:

One problem with these fixed lens cameras is that you can't zoom while also taking pictures, so you can't zoom as the train gets nearer (which would have improved that last shot). My E-mount cameras are better in those circumstances, as you can zoom out as the train comes closer.

Probably this train is a lot faster and running to a tighter schedule than most traffic on the run down like everything else UK rail network.

Bill Borne
Bill Borne Forum Pro • Posts: 40,808
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains

Horacecoker wrote:

Bill Borne wrote:

Not perfect bu close enough?

For 1/15th of a second that's very good indeed, Bill.

David

Thanks David Tried to save you the scrolling down so much

-- hide signature --

Bill
"Life's Too Short to Worry about the BS!"
So I Choose my Battles
Click for Wild Man's Photos
Using Rx10 IV at Present

 Bill Borne's gear list:Bill Borne's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-R1 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX400V Sony Cyber-shot DSC-H5 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 Sony RX100 III +4 more
Bill Borne
Bill Borne Forum Pro • Posts: 40,808
Re: RX100M6, speeding trains

Digital Nigel wrote:

Bill Borne wrote:

Have you ever tried panning with trains? Not sure how it would do in low light tho?

I was panning in those shots.

And in these:

I'm curious? What is the white smoke/steam from? The Boiler?

One problem with these fixed lens cameras is that you can't zoom while also taking pictures, so you can't zoom as the train gets nearer (which would have improved that last shot). My E-mount cameras are better in those circumstances, as you can zoom out as the train comes closer.

-- hide signature --

Bill
"Life's Too Short to Worry about the BS!"
So I Choose my Battles
Click for Wild Man's Photos
Using Rx10 IV at Present

 Bill Borne's gear list:Bill Borne's gear list
Sony Cyber-shot DSC-R1 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-HX400V Sony Cyber-shot DSC-H5 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-F828 Sony RX100 III +4 more
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads