Would we pay more for a tiny M4/3 body?

Tom Caldwell wrote:

There are a few zillion people that agree that a mobile phone is the ideal pocketable camera.

Your reasons are well considered. If I only needed a camera that I could pocket then I too would be using a mobile phone these days.

I come from using several dslr bodies each with a lens and usually on a tripod - it is the other end of the scale that says I can put three GM5 “cameras” into a single Ona leather bag.

Many pro-wedding photographers still sling two dslr cameras from their neck or body. Many working pro-shooters in the new business are similarly equipped.

The industry would die laughing if pros switched to two GM5 cameras in a small bag. A GM5 camera slung from each hip - never!

Yeah, well, the GM5 would never be a candidate for me for professional work if only due to ergonomics and the tiny EVF. Three GX7s, though, worked great for me until I upgraded to two GX8s and a GX85.

Meanwhile my jourmalist daughter achieved a front page image with her mobile phone when her photojournalist associate did not turn up on time with his dslr kit to get the shot. Great shot incidentally. So if a mobile phone can ace a dslr kit then why not a couple of GM5 cameras - it would be easier and a Nocticron 42.5/1.2 actually sits well on a GM5 even if it is in no way pocketable.

Of course we simply could not have people dying of laughter all over the place

I don't care if they're laughing as long as I'm cashing checks. Been there done that with the two big DSLRs thing.

Diane B wrote:

I have a GM1, did not go for the GM5 because I had had that little auxiliary EVF for the GF1 years before and hated it. I have had a number of bodies from the first G1 but though I have a GX85 I think my favorite is the GX8 which I recently bought used. Its also as large as I will go in m4/3 (I came from FF Canon).

Totally agree. The G9 holds no appeal for me.

The GX85 is my favorite size

I like it, but the GX8's much larger EVF is well worth the extra heft.

and I really prefer the RF body style (though I really did like my EM5) but a good EVF is important to me so I find the GX8 (rather than the GX9) my choice. Consequently I know I would not buy a smaller body.

The high end MFT cameras are more expensive or equal too as all of the aps-c cameras (Fuji H1,D500,7Dmkii,). And equal to most full frame (6D mkii, Sony A7 mkiii, Pentax, D610,D750,). How much higher can the system go

joerg bergmann wrote:

Do not try to apply the ergonomics guidelines of DSLR cameras for small cameras. They are different. A small camera - unlike a DSLR - is held in the palm of the left hand. The right hand is only used to operate the camera, not to carry it. That's why you don't need a bulky grip for small ILC cameras. The ergonomics argumentation, which is repeatedly put forward here in the forum against small cameras, ignores this important difference. If someone criticizes the lack of an "ergonomic" grip in a GM, I immediately know that he has never seriously worked with a small camera.

That might be true for primes, especially for small primes, but if you have a zoom lens on the GM, the left hand goes to operate the zoom, so the right hand needs to have some grip too. Both hands are used for the grip not at the same time, but still both hands need to be able to hold the camera securely enough to let the other hand to operate the controls.

schlafmuetze wrote:

joerg bergmann wrote:

Do not try to apply the ergonomics guidelines of DSLR cameras for small cameras. They are different. A small camera - unlike a DSLR - is held in the palm of the left hand. The right hand is only used to operate the camera, not to carry it. That's why you don't need a bulky grip for small ILC cameras. The ergonomics argumentation, which is repeatedly put forward here in the forum against small cameras, ignores this important difference. If someone criticizes the lack of an "ergonomic" grip in a GM, I immediately know that he has never seriously worked with a small camera.

That might be true for primes, especially for small primes, but if you have a zoom lens on the GM, the left hand goes to operate the zoom, so the right hand needs to have some grip too. Both hands are used for the grip not at the same time, but still both hands need to be able to hold the camera securely enough to let the other hand to operate the controls.

You might be right when it comes to very large zoom lenses (I don't know, I've never used a large telezoom on my GM1 or GF7).

However, normal mft zoom lenses can be operated with the thumb and index finger of the left hand.

schlafmuetze wrote:

joerg bergmann wrote:

Do not try to apply the ergonomics guidelines of DSLR cameras for small cameras. They are different. A small camera - unlike a DSLR - is held in the palm of the left hand. The right hand is only used to operate the camera, not to carry it. That's why you don't need a bulky grip for small ILC cameras. The ergonomics argumentation, which is repeatedly put forward here in the forum against small cameras, ignores this important difference. If someone criticizes the lack of an "ergonomic" grip in a GM, I immediately know that he has never seriously worked with a small camera.

That might be true for primes, especially for small primes, but if you have a zoom lens on the GM, the left hand goes to operate the zoom, so the right hand needs to have some grip too. Both hands are used for the grip not at the same time, but still both hands need to be able to hold the camera securely enough to let the other hand to operate the controls.

This is true. I do also worry much about the weight or large lenses. It is quite a long lever arm. The mount flange has of course no problem with this, it is the same as on larger cameras. But the front the front magnesium shell that the mount attaches too is quite thin, with not much stiffening structures inside. There is quite some flex in it, not that you can see anything bend, but some permanent deformation cannot be excluded if holding only the camera without supporting the lens, and this could affect optical alignment.

There are a number of nice and useful grips available for both GM1 and GM5. Some to glue on, some of L-type. I like the L-bracket type with a screw-on baseplate best. Because they can quickly be removed when only using small lenses. I have the Sunwayphoto and can recommend it. Panasonic makes a nice one one too, was initially quite costly but can now be found discounted.

Sunwayphoto PPL-GM L-grip with tripod mount removed. The bottom plate is just 5mm thick. Can be unscrewed single handed with the thumb.

Your dream is here

Abbazz wrote:

s_grins wrote:

Your dream is here

Yeah, I have tried the Yi M1 and it does indeed tick quite a few boxes. I don't care for the poor AF but unfortunately, it's substantially bigger than the GM1/5 and doesn't have a viewfinder. But I might buy one now that the price has dropped to less than $300.

Cheers!

Abbazz

volume GM1 : 0.165L = 100%, weight 274g

volume GX850: 0.229L = 139%, weight 336g

volume Yi-M1: 0.248L = 150%, weight 281g

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.

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volume G9: 1.223L = 741%, weight 658g (just to compare to a very large camera)

cba_melbourne wrote:

schlafmuetze wrote:

joerg bergmann wrote:

Do not try to apply the ergonomics guidelines of DSLR cameras for small cameras. They are different. A small camera - unlike a DSLR - is held in the palm of the left hand. The right hand is only used to operate the camera, not to carry it. That's why you don't need a bulky grip for small ILC cameras. The ergonomics argumentation, which is repeatedly put forward here in the forum against small cameras, ignores this important difference. If someone criticizes the lack of an "ergonomic" grip in a GM, I immediately know that he has never seriously worked with a small camera.

That might be true for primes, especially for small primes, but if you have a zoom lens on the GM, the left hand goes to operate the zoom, so the right hand needs to have some grip too. Both hands are used for the grip not at the same time, but still both hands need to be able to hold the camera securely enough to let the other hand to operate the controls.

This is true. I do also worry much about the weight or large lenses. It is quite a long lever arm. The mount flange has of course no problem with this, it is the same as on larger cameras. But the front the front magnesium shell that the mount attaches too is quite thin, with not much stiffening structures inside. There is quite some flex in it, not that you can see anything bend, but some permanent deformation cannot be excluded if holding only the camera without supporting the lens, and this could affect optical alignment.

There are a number of nice and useful grips available for both GM1 and GM5. Some to glue on, some of L-type. I like the L-bracket type with a screw-on baseplate best. Because they can quickly be removed when only using small lenses. I have the Sunwayphoto and can recommend it. Panasonic makes a nice one one too, was initially quite costly but can now be found discounted.

Sunwayphoto PPL-GM L-grip with tripod mount removed. The bottom plate is just 5mm thick. Can be unscrewed single handed with the thumb.

I'd use a Flipbac grip instead. I have one on my LF1. $10.

G9 is a big camera? Smaller than GH5 and GH5s.

How about comparing it to Nikon Z7:

675 g (1.49 lb / 23.81 oz) without battery (heavier than the G9 with battery)

Dimensions 134 x 101 x 68 mm (5.28 x 3.98 x 2.68″)

You gave volume in liters:

13.4cm * 10.1cm * 6.8cm = 920.312 cc. Since there are 1000 cc per liter, it 0.92 liters (body only). You came up with 1.2L for the G9:

G9 dimensions: 137 x 97 x 92 mm, do 13.7 * 0.97 * 9.2cm = 1.2L OK, but you KNOW that the G9's depth is because of the large hand grip; the G9 is not a box that you compute volume as W * H * D. If the Z7 is only 68mm deep one thing we know for sure is it does not have a really great grip, like the G9.

JosephScha wrote:

G9 is a big camera? Smaller than GH5 and GH5s.

How about comparing it to Nikon Z7:

675 g (1.49 lb / 23.81 oz) without battery (heavier than the G9 with battery)

Dimensions 134 x 101 x 68 mm (5.28 x 3.98 x 2.68″)

You gave volume in liters:

13.4cm * 10.1cm * 6.8cm = 920.312 cc. Since there are 1000 cc per liter, it 0.92 liters (body only). You came up with 1.2L for the G9:

G9 dimensions: 137 x 97 x 92 mm, do 13.7 * 0.97 * 9.2cm = 1.2L OK, but you KNOW that the G9's depth is because of the large hand grip; the G9 is not a box that you compute volume as W * H * D. If the Z7 is only 68mm deep one thing we know for sure is it does not have a really great grip, like the G9.

Yes, I calculated just the enclosed volume (enclosed in the largest outside dimensions). Knowing full well the real volume enclosed by the camera body is always smaller, since it is not shoe boxes but irregular shapes. But to be fair I did it the same way for all cameras, so the volume proportions should be comparable.

Also, keep in mind that highly irregular shapes do not help stowing the camera away. In an average photo bag, you still need the room of the outside dimensions "shoe box". You cannot stuff too much in between, else removing the camera becomes a hassle.

I have always been comparing camera sizes by volume. I feel it is more intuitive. Where I live, a coke can is 0.33L.

A Pen-F is 0.333L = one coke can. That gave me a good feel for size long before I went to the shop. The Pen-F is 434g, so it is also heavier than the coke can which is 360g.

The GM1 is 0.165L = very accurately one half of a coke can.

The E-M5mk2 is 1.06L = one 1L milk pack or 6 GM1's. The biggest I ever want to put up with.

It gives me a good comparison, if I know the G9 is 4 coke cans or 4 pen-F's or 8 GM1's. Too big for me, no matter how good.

Others may prefer to compare to a beer can, or a 1L milk pack. In any case, such common everyday objects tell me something about size right away, subconsciously and without thinking, unlike the dimensions.

schlafmuetze wrote:

joerg bergmann wrote:

Do not try to apply the ergonomics guidelines of DSLR cameras for small cameras. They are different. A small camera - unlike a DSLR - is held in the palm of the left hand. The right hand is only used to operate the camera, not to carry it. That's why you don't need a bulky grip for small ILC cameras. The ergonomics argumentation, which is repeatedly put forward here in the forum against small cameras, ignores this important difference. If someone criticizes the lack of an "ergonomic" grip in a GM, I immediately know that he has never seriously worked with a small camera.

That might be true for primes, especially for small primes, but if you have a zoom lens on the GM, the left hand goes to operate the zoom, so the right hand needs to have some grip too. Both hands are used for the grip not at the same time, but still both hands need to be able to hold the camera securely enough to let the other hand to operate the controls.

Franiec grip makes using the larger M43 zooms such as the Panny 100-300 much, much easier as well as making it possible to one-hand the GM5 when used with smaller lenses.