Some thoughts about EOS M, EOS R and Fuji

Bhotoz wrote:

nnowak wrote:

Bhotoz wrote:

I'm also interested in X-T3, mainly for shooting birds, sports, kids + portraits with 100-400 and 50-140 lenses. I'm thinking if I would change my 7d2 + long EF-lenses to that Fuji kit. But I'm not sure / convinced yet, if it's worth all the money, and if X-T3's AF if good enough for BIF. (Maybe 16-55mm f2.8 might be good option for shooting events too. Could it also replace my FF? Would I miss FF?) I'm also a little worried, that I should buy & learn new software (Capture One) for photo editing, Lightroom is said not to be good for Fuji's RAW-files.

Capture one is still a bit better, but Lightroom has come a long way and is much better with Fuji files than in the past. Plenty of people use Lightroom with Fuji cameras and are perfectly happy. Regarding Capture One, they recently released a free "lite" version specifically for Fuji users.

I have Lightroom 5.? 😁

Plenty of people are already successfully shooting BIF with the older X-T2 and X-H1. The X-T3 should have no problem.

I've heard some say X-T3 is better or as good as 7d2 / D500 for BIF, some say it's not. I should try and see myself.

Comparisons are scarce, but I have heard the X-T3 is second to the D500.  If it matters, Nokishita was reporting that a 7D III is likely coming in just a few months.

I'm also interested in R (to replace my 5d3) for low light shooting, events, portraits, landscape... But I'm not sure / convinced yet, if it's worth all the money. When R's price drops, then maybe? Sad those 3 fps, I propably couldn't use that for low light sports anymore... But could X-T3 replace both my 7d2 and 5d3? Or what is Canon doing in the near future...? That's what I'm also thinking in my head... 🤔

I have also M50, 11-22mm, 18-150mm, 22mm, 28mm and have ordered 32mm. Whatever new system I'm buying, I wouldn't / couldn't dump this M-kit. Such a great, small and light kit for the price.

You should try renting an X-T2 or X-T3 plus the 50-140mm f2.8 lens and give it a try. There is a good chance you could replace all three of your Canon cameras with a single Fuji body. I wouldn't guarantee that the X-T3 is fully up to the level of a 5D III, but it may be close enough for you. The X-T2 was clearly better than my 5D II.

Yes, I'd love to rent, but unfortunately it's not possible. Nobody rents here... Here are also not many Fuji sellers in the nearhood. 😑

No, I don't want to have only one body. I'm not fan of changing lenses. When I'm out, I have 7d2 for birds / wildlife and M50 + Ef-m lenses for landscape and macro. (Sometimes, but not very often, I also have 5d3 + 70-200 2.8 if I think I need more "light power".) I think I could replace my two dslrs with one capable mirrorless "do it all" body, but not my M50-kit. I'm pretty happy with this small, light and cheap kit for landscape and macro shooting for now. Those comparable Fuji lenses would also cost a lot more and would be bigger and heavier too I think.

One thing I have missed many years, and I remember we have discussed about it some time ago: I'd like to have faster normal zoom for shooting family events. I still have only primes in normal fl for my 5d3 (using mainly 35 IS), zoom would be nice for versatility. I once tried EF 24-105 (original), but didn't like and sold it. So, RF 24-105 vs XF 16-55? RF has IS, XF has not. IS is not necessary for shooting people in that range, but if shooting something static in low light, IS is great. But would I like it (RF)? Don't know yet... I've heard only good things about 16-55 image quality wise. Wish it has IS. (Or maybe X-T4 has IBIS?) Yes, there is also XF 18-55 but..

It is pretty safe to assume that in less than 12 months Fuji will be launching a X-H2 that combines all of the X-T3 goodness with IBIS.  As Fuji gains more experience with IBIS, it will likely end up in most of the range, but that could take a couple years.  The X-T4 would be a safe bet for IBIS.  Fuji also has a 16-80mm f4.0 IS on the roadmap for 2019.  Probably not the best for indoor family events, but great for everything else.  Personally, I am holding off on the X-T3 in the hopes I can get a deal on a bunde with the upcoming 16-80mm lens.

The EOS R would be great for the indoor family stuff and could easily replace your 5D III, but is not really up to the task of replacing your 7DII.  If you crop to APS-C, you are down to about 11MP.  As you mentioned, burst speed is pretty poor too.  The rumored "pro" R might better fit your needs, but it will certainly be more expensive than a 5DIV.  Size may go up too.

The X-T3 is the opposite.  It can easily replace your 7D II, but less so with the 5D III.  Some of the Fuji primes could mitigate the difference though.  The X-T3 with the 23mm f1.4 would get you very close to your 5D III and 35mm f2.0 IS

If  you had to choose between the 7D II and 5D III, which would you pick?  The answer to that will likely point you to X-T3 or EOS R.

Pepege wrote:

Hi,

I've just read the review of the impressive Fuji X-T3 here on dpreview. Since I am a Canon shooter from day one, I usually don't look around that much. I try to focus on my technique, not gear. Well, kind of...

But the recent offerings made me think: I will almost for sure upgrade to an EOS R system to replace my 80D at some time in future. I will be able to use some of my EF lenses with the adapter and will buy into some new RF lenses - and sell my EF-S lenses.

Today, when I want to travel light I usually take my M5 with me. I never use adapted lenses because of weight and usability (large lens vs. small body). I much prefer my 80D if weight/size is no problem, which usually isn't.

Now, when I see these great reviews about Fuji X-T3 I wonder if I should think about ditching the M5 altogether. The Fuji is similar in size but offers way better video and FPS. And I love all those fast lenses Fuji offers. I suspect that we won't get near with Canon M-lenses, the M 32mm f/1.4 being the only exception.

Since EOS M and EOS R have incompatible mounts, there are diminishing benefits owning an M instead of another brand, like Fuji. So why not switch to Fuji?

Have you ever used the X-T3 or other Fuji cameras? What did you like/dislike in comparison to the M5 or other EOS M cameras?

Thanks!

I've an M3 and I am thinking about upgrading to the M5 or M6. I'm not really considering other cameras, good as some are, because my M3 produces great results, the 5 and 6 are better and I can use them with the same lenses I use on my DSLRs. I too will likely buy into the R system at some point, because existing lenses, and the M can remain a companion/alternate camera. At some point, that might become inconvenient. Don't see that being the case at least until Canon release an ultra wide R lens.

davev8 wrote:

fstopx2 wrote:

Fuji makes nice stuff. The size is reasonable if you dont want a DSLR. Their controls are more similar to older cameras. The primary reason I am staying in the M's is I am already invested in it. I dont want to buy a whole other system and start from scratch.

I have two M bodies and three M lenses plus the EF/EFS adapter. I got two of the M lenses, the original M body and the EF/EFS adapter on the original fire sale. If I told you what I paid for them your would be shocked. And it was all new.

I got the M3 body/EVF and 11-22mm for CHEAP. I have about $1200 invested in everything I just mentioned above. No joke.

Did I mention that I am CHEAP .

Cameras are electronic consumable items that depreciate the second you buy them. I dont want to pay top $$ for anything. With Fuji you pay, with Canon not so much. You just have to be smart shopper and strike while the iron is hot.

yes i an a cheap skate too.. i have M1, M2 and M5 11-22, 22f2 18-55 , 15-45 two gen ef to m adaptors a kipon tilt and shift M42 to M adaptor the little M flash spear gen canon batteries all for around £1000 GBP .....it do take a lot of browsing around the bay and waiting.....i only just get the M5 its as new with the 15-45 +adaptor and spear canon bat for £520 i see the 15-45 go for 100+ and the adapter for 80 secondhand and new batteries are 50 new ....so the M5 body could stand me at £290..i will keep the adaptor may sell the 15-45

Nothing wrong with being cheap. It saves you a ton of money.

I am getting ready to sell off most of my DSLR stuff. I am going to consolidate down to one system - the M and call it day.

If Canon kills off the M, so what. It will continue to work for years. If they kill off the M and dont make a small RF I will just take my business elsewhere. Not a big deal.

007peter wrote:

Pepege wrote: Since EOS M and EOS R have incompatible mounts, there are diminishing benefits owning an M instead of another brand, like Fuji. So why not switch to Fuji?

EXACTLY! Your post prove my point exactly. Without an EOS-R upgrade path to tied you to Canon, people are likely to upgrade out of Canon → Fuji X-T3 or Sony A7-III

There are some hard truth people don't like to admit:

1. Canon pulled a Dicx moved on us, destroying much appeal of EOS-M as a backup system to FF canon

I’d wager that the majority of M buyers do not do so as a backup.

lilBuddha wrote:

007peter wrote:

Pepege wrote: Since EOS M and EOS R have incompatible mounts, there are diminishing benefits owning an M instead of another brand, like Fuji. So why not switch to Fuji?

EXACTLY! Your post prove my point exactly. Without an EOS-R upgrade path to tied you to Canon, people are likely to upgrade out of Canon → Fuji X-T3 or Sony A7-III

There are some hard truth people don't like to admit:

1. Canon pulled a Dicx moved on us, destroying much appeal of EOS-M as a backup system to FF canon

I’d wager that the majority of M buyers do not do so as a backup.

I never bought the M's as a backup as I don't have full frame. I bought it because it was small and had the same sensor as the DSLR. Granted its more sluggish than the DSLR but the picture quality is the same.

The M/M3 never worked well with EF/EFS lenses and I had the native lenses. The native lenses are very tiny compared to EF/EFS.

I realized pretty much immediately that the whole compatibility with EF/EFS is somewhat overblown. Yes it is compatible but who wants to stick a gigantic lens on a small camera?

Even now I would only consider some of the primes to put on the camera because most are not that big but the big zooms? No thanks. Even my EFS 15-85 looks stupid on the camera.

I can't see the RF lenses even for crop sensors being as tiny as whats on the M.

I think people are underestimating the desire of people for small cameras. Its not just the fact that they are mirrorless. The overall size is a big driver because most people don't want to carry a DSLR sized camera.

I think its two or three market segments:

RF - full frame - full size bodies and lenses.

RF - APSC - smaller than full size bodies and lenses

M - APSC - tiny bodies and lenses.

There really is no reason that Canon couldnt have three lines. They love to do market segmentation anyway. Ever notice how they add/delete features to produce new models.   People keep saying about its wasting resources to do this - this is a big multinational company - they can easily have multiple teams.

IMO as long as the M sells they will continue to make it.

fstopx2 wrote:

The M/M3 never worked well with EF/EFS lenses and I had the native lenses. The native lenses are very tiny compared to EF/EFS.

I realized pretty much immediately that the whole compatibility with EF/EFS is somewhat overblown. Yes it is compatible but who wants to stick a gigantic lens on a small camera?

Even now I would only consider some of the primes to put on the camera because most are not that big but the big zooms? No thanks. Even my EFS 15-85 looks stupid on the camera.

Lol, I sometimes use my 70-200 2.8 with my M3. Yes, it looks funny and doesn't seem to spin the lens as fast as a DSLR. but it works.

I can't see the RF lenses even for crop sensors being as tiny as whats on the M.

They could not be. The mount alone would make the camera bigger.

I think people are underestimating the desire of people for small cameras. Its not just the fact that they are mirrorless. The overall size is a big driver because most people don't want to carry a DSLR sized camera.

That is the main reason I bought a compact mirrorless. I chose the M because it also uses my current lenses. Most of the time, however, I use the native lenses. If I used telephoto more, I'd buy a longer native lens.

I think its two or three market segments:

RF - full frame - full size bodies and lenses.

RF - APSC - smaller than full size bodies and lenses

M - APSC - tiny bodies and lenses.

There really is no reason that Canon couldnt have three lines. They love to do market segmentation anyway. Ever notice how they add/delete features to produce new models. People keep saying about its wasting resources to do this - this is a big multinational company - they can easily have multiple teams.

IMO as long as the M sells they will continue to make it.

I think that is a reasonable interpretation.

007peter wrote:

Pepege wrote: Since EOS M and EOS R have incompatible mounts, there are diminishing benefits owning an M instead of another brand, like Fuji. So why not switch to Fuji?

EXACTLY! Your post prove my point exactly. Without an EOS-R upgrade path to tied you to Canon, people are likely to upgrade out of Canon → Fuji X-T3 or Sony A7-III

So those who buy Fuji  X-T3 have an upgrade path to what ?

There are some hard truth people don't like to admit:

1. Canon pulled a Dicx moved on us, destroying much appeal of EOS-M as a backup system to FF canon

2. Canon has effectively NEUTERED EOS-M as a system

3. EF-m lens cannot be used on EOS-R, which limits how much people are willing to spend on a lens that is limited to just 1 system

4. Making it worse is that the cheaper EF-S lens can be use on EOS-R. In fact, Canon EF-S 10-18mm STM is highly sought after by many (R) users to compensate for(R) nasty 1.7x crop in 4K shooting.

In a round about way, FF EOS(R) is actually driving the sale of APS-C EF-S 10-18mm STM. in a round about way, Canon is telling us Canon Rebel DSLR is the true canon portable system, not EOS-M.

nnowak wrote:

Bhotoz wrote:

nnowak wrote:

Bhotoz wrote:

I'm also interested in X-T3, mainly for shooting birds, sports, kids + portraits with 100-400 and 50-140 lenses. I'm thinking if I would change my 7d2 + long EF-lenses to that Fuji kit. But I'm not sure / convinced yet, if it's worth all the money, and if X-T3's AF if good enough for BIF. (Maybe 16-55mm f2.8 might be good option for shooting events too. Could it also replace my FF? Would I miss FF?) I'm also a little worried, that I should buy & learn new software (Capture One) for photo editing, Lightroom is said not to be good for Fuji's RAW-files.

Capture one is still a bit better, but Lightroom has come a long way and is much better with Fuji files than in the past. Plenty of people use Lightroom with Fuji cameras and are perfectly happy. Regarding Capture One, they recently released a free "lite" version specifically for Fuji users.

I have Lightroom 5.? 😁

Plenty of people are already successfully shooting BIF with the older X-T2 and X-H1. The X-T3 should have no problem.

I've heard some say X-T3 is better or as good as 7d2 / D500 for BIF, some say it's not. I should try and see myself.

Comparisons are scarce, but I have heard the X-T3 is second to the D500. If it matters, Nokishita was reporting that a 7D III is likely coming in just a few months.

I have been thought about 7d3 also, but not sure about that anymore... Will Canon take big enough step forward in sensor? I think it will be the current 24mp sensor. Yes, it's better than 7d2's sensor, but...

I'm also interested in R (to replace my 5d3) for low light shooting, events, portraits, landscape... But I'm not sure / convinced yet, if it's worth all the money. When R's price drops, then maybe? Sad those 3 fps, I propably couldn't use that for low light sports anymore... But could X-T3 replace both my 7d2 and 5d3? Or what is Canon doing in the near future...? That's what I'm also thinking in my head... 🤔

I have also M50, 11-22mm, 18-150mm, 22mm, 28mm and have ordered 32mm. Whatever new system I'm buying, I wouldn't / couldn't dump this M-kit. Such a great, small and light kit for the price.

You should try renting an X-T2 or X-T3 plus the 50-140mm f2.8 lens and give it a try. There is a good chance you could replace all three of your Canon cameras with a single Fuji body. I wouldn't guarantee that the X-T3 is fully up to the level of a 5D III, but it may be close enough for you. The X-T2 was clearly better than my 5D II.

Yes, I'd love to rent, but unfortunately it's not possible. Nobody rents here... Here are also not many Fuji sellers in the nearhood. 😑

No, I don't want to have only one body. I'm not fan of changing lenses. When I'm out, I have 7d2 for birds / wildlife and M50 + Ef-m lenses for landscape and macro. (Sometimes, but not very often, I also have 5d3 + 70-200 2.8 if I think I need more "light power".) I think I could replace my two dslrs with one capable mirrorless "do it all" body, but not my M50-kit. I'm pretty happy with this small, light and cheap kit for landscape and macro shooting for now. Those comparable Fuji lenses would also cost a lot more and would be bigger and heavier too I think.

One thing I have missed many years, and I remember we have discussed about it some time ago: I'd like to have faster normal zoom for shooting family events. I still have only primes in normal fl for my 5d3 (using mainly 35 IS), zoom would be nice for versatility. I once tried EF 24-105 (original), but didn't like and sold it. So, RF 24-105 vs XF 16-55? RF has IS, XF has not. IS is not necessary for shooting people in that range, but if shooting something static in low light, IS is great. But would I like it (RF)? Don't know yet... I've heard only good things about 16-55 image quality wise. Wish it has IS. (Or maybe X-T4 has IBIS?) Yes, there is also XF 18-55 but..

It is pretty safe to assume that in less than 12 months Fuji will be launching a X-H2 that combines all of the X-T3 goodness with IBIS. As Fuji gains more experience with IBIS, it will likely end up in most of the range, but that could take a couple years. The X-T4 would be a safe bet for IBIS. Fuji also has a 16-80mm f4.0 IS on the roadmap for 2019. Probably not the best for indoor family events, but great for everything else. Personally, I am holding off on the X-T3 in the hopes I can get a deal on a bunde with the upcoming 16-80mm lens.

I have already 18-150mm, so f2.8 zoom (or maybe f4 zoom in FF) would serve me better.

The EOS R would be great for the indoor family stuff and could easily replace your 5D III, but is not really up to the task of replacing your 7DII. If you crop to APS-C, you are down to about 11MP. As you mentioned, burst speed is pretty poor too. The rumored "pro" R might better fit your needs, but it will certainly be more expensive than a 5DIV. Size may go up too.

The X-T3 is the opposite. It can easily replace your 7D II, but less so with the 5D III. Some of the Fuji primes could mitigate the difference though. The X-T3 with the 23mm f1.4 would get you very close to your 5D III and 35mm f2.0 IS

Certainly, but I would prefer zoom for versatility.

If you had to choose between the 7D II and 5D III, which would you pick? The answer to that will likely point you to X-T3 or EOS R.

Yeah. I added couple of years ago 7d2, because I had to crop too much from 5d3 files when shooting birds. But I'm not very happy to shoot at ISO 6400 (which happens quite often) with 7d2.

If I now should pick only one camera between 5d3 and 7d2, I would pick 5d3, although I'm using 7d2 almost every day (and I'm not using 5d3 everyday). 😀 I'm using 7d2 only with my teles for birds & wildlife. For other shooting (except landscapes and macro -> M50) I always grab my 5d3. I'm shooting also sports with 5d3+70-200 ii, if I don't have to crop too much. I trust more 5d3's AF, and prefer it's iq over 7d2.

My original plan was to upgrade 5d3 to 5d4. Now that I've been shooting with M50, I'd like to have EVF and eye AF (for shooting kids / portraits) in FF... No need for mfa would be great too. At the moment 5d4 and R body cost about the same. Unfortunately 5d4 is not mirrorless and R is not good for sports. Yes, the "pro model" R would propably be better for me. But the coming price...? 🙄

X-T3 seems to be a little better in high ISO than 7d2, but apparently not a huge difference. I should play with Fuji files first. If I like them, I might jump to X-T3 + XF 100-400mm if I find a good deal. I have EF 400mm 5.6L, which is good for BIF, but not so great to shoot static birds in lower light. Because it lacks IS, I still have to use quite high shutter speed. And mfd (3,5m) is not good for close-ups, such as butterflies. I have also Sigma 100-400mm, bought it because it's small and light and cheap and more versatility. It's ok in bright light for static shots, but AF struggles in lower light, BIF and distant subjects. IS is not very effective either. So I'm pretty sure X-T3 + XF 100-400mm would beat 7d2 + Sigma 100-400mm easily. But maybe 7d2 + 400mm 5.6L wins that Fuji-combo in BIF...? I really would like to try that Fuji-combo before I sell my 400L and regret afterwards. I'd really love to have capable 100-400. I don't like to choose "either BIF-lens or static-lens". (I can shoot BIF with Sigma, IS off, but focus is unreliable, much more oof shots compared to 400L.) I didn't want to buy EF 100-400mm ii, because of price and weight. 400L feels so much better in hands and balanced with body when shooting BIF...

Sorry OT... Hope Canon makes great mirrorless aps-c action camera + a little smaller and lighter than current 100-400mm lens for it! 😀