Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors

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yanisha Senior Member • Posts: 2,519
Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors
2

Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors

https://www.43rumors.com/sony-now-lists-two-new-four-thirds-sensors/

I don't know if this is really new or if it was known before.

junk1 Senior Member • Posts: 1,499
Re: Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors
2

read comments on that site - they are not new.

JakeJY Senior Member • Posts: 3,301
Re: Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors
6

yanisha wrote:

Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors

https://www.43rumors.com/sony-now-lists-two-new-four-thirds-sensors/

I don't know if this is really new or if it was known before.

Not new. The IMX272 was confirmed to be the chip in the GH5 by Tech Insights last year.

http://www.techinsights.com/reports-and-subscriptions/open-market-reports/Report-Profile/?ReportKey=DEF-1705-804

The IMX299 appears to be the chip used by the GH5S and BMPCC 4K.

So newly listed, but not new chips.

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OP yanisha Senior Member • Posts: 2,519
Re: Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors
1

JakeJY wrote:

yanisha wrote:

Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors

https://www.43rumors.com/sony-now-lists-two-new-four-thirds-sensors/

I don't know if this is really new or if it was known before.

Not new. The IMX272 was confirmed to be the chip in the GH5 by Tech Insights last year.

http://www.techinsights.com/reports-and-subscriptions/open-market-reports/Report-Profile/?ReportKey=DEF-1705-804

The IMX299 appears to be the chip used by the GH5S and BMPCC 4K.

So newly listed, but not new chips.

Just clickbait, I guess.  The person who runs the site must know this already.

OP yanisha Senior Member • Posts: 2,519
Re: Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors

yanisha wrote:

Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors

https://www.43rumors.com/sony-now-lists-two-new-four-thirds-sensors/

I don't know if this is really new or if it was known before.

Another thread on these 2 sensors:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61804766

I didn't notice if anyone there said these are not new though.

OP yanisha Senior Member • Posts: 2,519
dpreview also says new sensor

dpreview also says they are new sensors:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/2500386213/new-sony-sensor-specs-resemble-those-found-in-fujifilm-x-t3-panasonic-gh5s-others

The IMX299 is a bit harder to hit on the head, but based on it being 11-megapixls, having 4.63 micron pixels, and a 60 frames per second readout, it's almost certainly the sensor found inside the Panasonic GH5S.

Last but not least is the IMX272. This 20-megapixel Four Thirds-type sensor has 3.3 micron pixels and a maximum readout of 60 frames per second. We don't have any reason to believe this is currently in any camera, but it seems like an incredibly capable sensor that could show up in a very high-performing Four Thirds camera in the future.

It looks like dpreview also disagrees with posters on this forum who say that the 20mp is an old sensor.

JakeJY Senior Member • Posts: 3,301
Re: dpreview also says new sensor
2

yanisha wrote:

dpreview also says they are new sensors:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/2500386213/new-sony-sensor-specs-resemble-those-found-in-fujifilm-x-t3-panasonic-gh5s-others

The IMX299 is a bit harder to hit on the head, but based on it being 11-megapixls, having 4.63 micron pixels, and a 60 frames per second readout, it's almost certainly the sensor found inside the Panasonic GH5S.

Last but not least is the IMX272. This 20-megapixel Four Thirds-type sensor has 3.3 micron pixels and a maximum readout of 60 frames per second. We don't have any reason to believe this is currently in any camera, but it seems like an incredibly capable sensor that could show up in a very high-performing Four Thirds camera in the future.

It looks like dpreview also disagrees with posters on this forum who say that the 20mp is an old sensor.

Someone in the comments already pointed out the same link I gave. The IMX272 is certain to be the sensor in the GH5 given Tech Insights (formerly Chipworks) disassembled and identified the sensor as the IMX272 last year. DP Review may just be unaware of that report and needs to correct their article, but this fact is indisputable.

http://www.techinsights.com/reports-and-subscriptions/open-market-reports/Report-Profile/?ReportKey=DEF-1705-804

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SHood Veteran Member • Posts: 5,218
DPREVIEW has updated and corrected article

yanisha wrote:

dpreview also says they are new sensors:

https://www.dpreview.com/news/2500386213/new-sony-sensor-specs-resemble-those-found-in-fujifilm-x-t3-panasonic-gh5s-others

The IMX299 is a bit harder to hit on the head, but based on it being 11-megapixls, having 4.63 micron pixels, and a 60 frames per second readout, it's almost certainly the sensor found inside the Panasonic GH5S.

Last but not least is the IMX272. This 20-megapixel Four Thirds-type sensor has 3.3 micron pixels and a maximum readout of 60 frames per second. We don't have any reason to believe this is currently in any camera, but it seems like an incredibly capable sensor that could show up in a very high-performing Four Thirds camera in the future.

It looks like dpreview also disagrees with posters on this forum who say that the 20mp is an old sensor.

-- hide signature --

Last but not least is the IMX272. This 20-megapixel Four Thirds-type sensor has 3.3 micron pixels and a maximum readout of 60 frames per second. This has been confirmed by TechInsights to be sensor inside the Panasonic GH5.

Update: This article was updated to fix incorrect information regarding the IMX272 sensor

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junk1 Senior Member • Posts: 1,499
Re: DPREVIEW has updated and corrected article
1

Not to mention the claim was TWO new sensors and the other sensor mentioned has been around for a while too.

PS:  It is WAY overdue for m43 to have BSI sensors!!!  Smaller sensors benefit the most for Pete's sake.

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 61,779
Re: Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors
4

yanisha wrote:

Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors

https://www.43rumors.com/sony-now-lists-two-new-four-thirds-sensors/

I don't know if this is really new or if it was known before.

Sony has some other interesting Four Thirds sensors. You're just looking at the wrong ones, look over in their industrial sensor lineup, you'll find the IMX367 and IMX387, 4.3" sensors with 20 and 17MP. Both have global shutter, IMX367 can go at 28FPS full read-out 12 bit, IMX387 at 40FPS.

The main significance is that Sony now sees four thirds as a commodity sensor size for industrial and machine vision, which bodes well for continued availability of commodity sensors.

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Ride easy, William.
Bob

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 61,779
Re: DPREVIEW has updated and corrected article
1

junk1 wrote:

Not to mention the claim was TWO new sensors and the other sensor mentioned has been around for a while too.

PS: It is WAY overdue for m43 to have BSI sensors!!! Smaller sensors benefit the most for Pete's sake.

I'm not sure that BSI gives a great advantage for Four Thirds. For the FF sensors it's not really increasing pixel performance so much, the main reason for it is to give high frame rates with 14 bit readout by having four ADCs per column. Due to the smaller pixels, Four Thirds sensors don't really need 14-bit readout. !2-bit goes four times as fast the way Sony's ADCs work, so 2 ADCs per column is just fine.

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Ride easy, William.
Bob

OP yanisha Senior Member • Posts: 2,519
Is there a reason not to use those sensors?

bobn2 wrote:

yanisha wrote:

Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors

https://www.43rumors.com/sony-now-lists-two-new-four-thirds-sensors/

I don't know if this is really new or if it was known before.

Sony has some other interesting Four Thirds sensors. You're just looking at the wrong ones, look over in their industrial sensor lineup, you'll find the IMX367 and IMX387, 4.3" sensors with 20 and 17MP. Both have global shutter, IMX367 can go at 28FPS full read-out 12 bit, IMX387 at 40FPS.

The main significance is that Sony now sees four thirds as a commodity sensor size for industrial and machine vision, which bodes well for continued availability of commodity sensors.

Do you know if there is a reason that Olympus and Panasonic do not use those sensors?  Are they no good for m4/3 cameras?

OP yanisha Senior Member • Posts: 2,519
14-bit readout

bobn2 wrote:

I'm not sure that BSI gives a great advantage for Four Thirds. For the FF sensors it's not really increasing pixel performance so much, the main reason for it is to give high frame rates with 14 bit readout by having four ADCs per column. Due to the smaller pixels, Four Thirds sensors don't really need 14-bit readout. !2-bit goes four times as fast the way Sony's ADCs work, so 2 ADCs per column is just fine.

Are you saying that 14-bit readout would have no IQ advantage for 4/3 sensors?

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 61,779
Re: 14-bit readout
3

yanisha wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

I'm not sure that BSI gives a great advantage for Four Thirds. For the FF sensors it's not really increasing pixel performance so much, the main reason for it is to give high frame rates with 14 bit readout by having four ADCs per column. Due to the smaller pixels, Four Thirds sensors don't really need 14-bit readout. !2-bit goes four times as fast the way Sony's ADCs work, so 2 ADCs per column is just fine.

Are you saying that 14-bit readout would have no IQ advantage for 4/3 sensors?

Taking, for example, the E-M1 II. It has a base ISO saturation capacity of 16,000 photoelectrons per pixel and a base ISO read noise of 3.6 photoelectrons equivalent. That gives a dynamic range of 4444 or 12.1 stops. That's using the absolute full range, exposing for 100 ISO and very marginally is too much for a 12 bit ADC. Exposed for the nominal base of 200 ISO (half the exposure) that's 11 stops and 12 bits is just fine.

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 61,779
Re: Is there a reason not to use those sensors?
2

yanisha wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

yanisha wrote:

Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors

https://www.43rumors.com/sony-now-lists-two-new-four-thirds-sensors/

I don't know if this is really new or if it was known before.

Sony has some other interesting Four Thirds sensors. You're just looking at the wrong ones, look over in their industrial sensor lineup, you'll find the IMX367 and IMX387, 4.3" sensors with 20 and 17MP. Both have global shutter, IMX367 can go at 28FPS full read-out 12 bit, IMX387 at 40FPS.

The main significance is that Sony now sees four thirds as a commodity sensor size for industrial and machine vision, which bodes well for continued availability of commodity sensors.

Do you know if there is a reason that Olympus and Panasonic do not use those sensors? Are they no good for m4/3 cameras?

The extra circuitry for the global shutter results in slightly less efficiency and some other issues - for instance, the recommended minimum f-number is f/2.8. For still photography, not having the global shutter is probably a better optimisation.

Global shutter is of importance in computer vision and industrial applications, where you really don't want 'Jello' effects with moving targets.

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Ride easy, William.
Bob

junk1 Senior Member • Posts: 1,499
Re: 14-bit readout

Faster readout would help electronic shutter which currently takes 1/25th of a second to read, causing the "jello effect".  Unless something fundamentally changes, I think global shutter will "require" BSI, do you agree?

JakeJY Senior Member • Posts: 3,301
Re: Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors

bobn2 wrote:

yanisha wrote:

Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors

https://www.43rumors.com/sony-now-lists-two-new-four-thirds-sensors/

I don't know if this is really new or if it was known before.

Sony has some other interesting Four Thirds sensors. You're just looking at the wrong ones, look over in their industrial sensor lineup, you'll find the IMX367 and IMX387, 4.3" sensors with 20 and 17MP. Both have global shutter, IMX367 can go at 28FPS full read-out 12 bit, IMX387 at 40FPS.

The main significance is that Sony now sees four thirds as a commodity sensor size for industrial and machine vision, which bodes well for continued availability of commodity sensors.

From what I can find, those appear to be square sensors: 15.2mm x 15.3mm. Not as useful for MFT purposes.

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bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 61,779
Re: Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors
1

JakeJY wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

yanisha wrote:

Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors

https://www.43rumors.com/sony-now-lists-two-new-four-thirds-sensors/

I don't know if this is really new or if it was known before.

Sony has some other interesting Four Thirds sensors. You're just looking at the wrong ones, look over in their industrial sensor lineup, you'll find the IMX367 and IMX387, 4.3" sensors with 20 and 17MP. Both have global shutter, IMX367 can go at 28FPS full read-out 12 bit, IMX387 at 40FPS.

The main significance is that Sony now sees four thirds as a commodity sensor size for industrial and machine vision, which bodes well for continued availability of commodity sensors.

From what I can find, those appear to be square sensors: 15.2mm x 15.3mm. Not as useful for MFT purposes.

One is, the other is 16:9. But sure, they're industrial sensors. You're not understanding the significance. Why is Sony making sensors for industrial use with a 21.6mm image diagonal? Simple reason, people who design systems using them have a ready source of lenses from the mFT system. So, whilst those aren't sensors for general photographic use (they have other characteristics as well as aspect ratio which make them not so suitable) they signify a measure of confidence in the system, a least as a supplier of lenses.

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Ride easy, William.
Bob

bobn2
bobn2 Forum Pro • Posts: 61,779
Re: 14-bit readout
1

junk1 wrote:

Faster readout would help electronic shutter which currently takes 1/25th of a second to read, causing the "jello effect". Unless something fundamentally changes, I think global shutter will "require" BSI, do you agree?

Sony clearly doesn't, because these sensors have global shutter and are not BSI. Global shutter is not a matter of reducing readout times (though these are quite fast) - it is a matter of putting an extra transistor each pixel so that the integration time can be made to start and stop at the same time in every pixel.

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Ride easy, William.
Bob

JakeJY Senior Member • Posts: 3,301
Re: Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors

bobn2 wrote:

JakeJY wrote:

bobn2 wrote:

yanisha wrote:

Sony has 2 new 4/3 sensors

https://www.43rumors.com/sony-now-lists-two-new-four-thirds-sensors/

I don't know if this is really new or if it was known before.

Sony has some other interesting Four Thirds sensors. You're just looking at the wrong ones, look over in their industrial sensor lineup, you'll find the IMX367 and IMX387, 4.3" sensors with 20 and 17MP. Both have global shutter, IMX367 can go at 28FPS full read-out 12 bit, IMX387 at 40FPS.

The main significance is that Sony now sees four thirds as a commodity sensor size for industrial and machine vision, which bodes well for continued availability of commodity sensors.

From what I can find, those appear to be square sensors: 15.2mm x 15.3mm. Not as useful for MFT purposes.

One is, the other is 16:9. But sure, they're industrial sensors. You're not understanding the significance. Why is Sony making sensors for industrial use with a 21.6mm image diagonal? Simple reason, people who design systems using them have a ready source of lenses from the mFT system. So, whilst those aren't sensors for general photographic use (they have other characteristics as well as aspect ratio which make them not so suitable) they signify a measure of confidence in the system, a least as a supplier of lenses.

Ok, fair point.

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