DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroom vs CaptureOne

Started Sep 29, 2018 | Discussions
Zeee Forum Pro • Posts: 18,892
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroom vs CaptureOne

Digital Nigel wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Editing on the road. I travel with a laptop and when I get home I merge the travel catalogue to the master one on the iMac. DXO has no catalogue so I would just move my files from potable ED to the powered one where all my files are stored. When I open DXO on the iMac will my edits be retained?

Yes, all the edits are stored in the DOP sidecar files (one for each RAW file you've edited). If you copy those along with the original RAW files to the iMac folder, PhotoLab will see and use them.

Thanks for the info. If I use it when I travel I'll turn them back on.

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Digital Nigel Veteran Member • Posts: 8,874
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroom vs CaptureOne

Zeee wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Editing on the road. I travel with a laptop and when I get home I merge the travel catalogue to the master one on the iMac. DXO has no catalogue so I would just move my files from potable ED to the powered one where all my files are stored. When I open DXO on the iMac will my edits be retained?

Yes, all the edits are stored in the DOP sidecar files (one for each RAW file you've edited). If you copy those along with the original RAW files to the iMac folder, PhotoLab will see and use them.

Thanks for the info. If I use it when I travel I'll turn them back on.

I must admit that I wasn't aware it was even possible to turn them off. Without them, where would DxO store the edit instructions?

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Zeee Forum Pro • Posts: 18,892
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroom vs CaptureOne

Digital Nigel wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Editing on the road. I travel with a laptop and when I get home I merge the travel catalogue to the master one on the iMac. DXO has no catalogue so I would just move my files from potable ED to the powered one where all my files are stored. When I open DXO on the iMac will my edits be retained?

Yes, all the edits are stored in the DOP sidecar files (one for each RAW file you've edited). If you copy those along with the original RAW files to the iMac folder, PhotoLab will see and use them.

Thanks for the info. If I use it when I travel I'll turn them back on.

I must admit that I wasn't aware it was even possible to turn them off. Without them, where would DxO store the edit instructions?

It is for exporting and importing. I just edited an image, shut down and restarted DXO and the edits were retained. I looked through the Mac libraries and I cannot see where it is being saved.

 Zeee's gear list:Zeee's gear list
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Zeee Forum Pro • Posts: 18,892
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroom vs CaptureOne

Zeee wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Editing on the road. I travel with a laptop and when I get home I merge the travel catalogue to the master one on the iMac. DXO has no catalogue so I would just move my files from potable ED to the powered one where all my files are stored. When I open DXO on the iMac will my edits be retained?

Yes, all the edits are stored in the DOP sidecar files (one for each RAW file you've edited). If you copy those along with the original RAW files to the iMac folder, PhotoLab will see and use them.

Thanks for the info. If I use it when I travel I'll turn them back on.

I must admit that I wasn't aware it was even possible to turn them off. Without them, where would DxO store the edit instructions?

It is for exporting and importing. I just edited an image, shut down and restarted DXO and the edits were retained. I looked through the Mac libraries and I cannot see where it is being saved.

Not beside my RAW files.

 Zeee's gear list:Zeee's gear list
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bsas
OP bsas Contributing Member • Posts: 618
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroom vs CaptureOne

Zeee wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Editing on the road. I travel with a laptop and when I get home I merge the travel catalogue to the master one on the iMac. DXO has no catalogue so I would just move my files from potable ED to the powered one where all my files are stored. When I open DXO on the iMac will my edits be retained?

Yes, all the edits are stored in the DOP sidecar files (one for each RAW file you've edited). If you copy those along with the original RAW files to the iMac folder, PhotoLab will see and use them.

Thanks for the info. If I use it when I travel I'll turn them back on.

I must admit that I wasn't aware it was even possible to turn them off. Without them, where would DxO store the edit instructions?

It is for exporting and importing. I just edited an image, shut down and restarted DXO and the edits were retained. I looked through the Mac libraries and I cannot see where it is being saved.

Not beside my RAW files.

DxO also has a local database. Probably it is saving there, but I am almost sure that the sidecar files take precedence (like it also does on LR).

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Zeee Forum Pro • Posts: 18,892
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroom vs CaptureOne

bsas wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Editing on the road. I travel with a laptop and when I get home I merge the travel catalogue to the master one on the iMac. DXO has no catalogue so I would just move my files from potable ED to the powered one where all my files are stored. When I open DXO on the iMac will my edits be retained?

Yes, all the edits are stored in the DOP sidecar files (one for each RAW file you've edited). If you copy those along with the original RAW files to the iMac folder, PhotoLab will see and use them.

Thanks for the info. If I use it when I travel I'll turn them back on.

I must admit that I wasn't aware it was even possible to turn them off. Without them, where would DxO store the edit instructions?

It is for exporting and importing. I just edited an image, shut down and restarted DXO and the edits were retained. I looked through the Mac libraries and I cannot see where it is being saved.

Not beside my RAW files.

DxO also has a local database. Probably it is saving there, but I am almost sure that the sidecar files take precedence (like it also does on LR).

I'm fine with a local data base as king as I don't see it. I have no sidecars on LR. Can't remember where I set that up.

 Zeee's gear list:Zeee's gear list
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Zeee Forum Pro • Posts: 18,892
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroom vs CaptureOne

Zeee wrote:

bsas wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Editing on the road. I travel with a laptop and when I get home I merge the travel catalogue to the master one on the iMac. DXO has no catalogue so I would just move my files from potable ED to the powered one where all my files are stored. When I open DXO on the iMac will my edits be retained?

Yes, all the edits are stored in the DOP sidecar files (one for each RAW file you've edited). If you copy those along with the original RAW files to the iMac folder, PhotoLab will see and use them.

Thanks for the info. If I use it when I travel I'll turn them back on.

I must admit that I wasn't aware it was even possible to turn them off. Without them, where would DxO store the edit instructions?

It is for exporting and importing. I just edited an image, shut down and restarted DXO and the edits were retained. I looked through the Mac libraries and I cannot see where it is being saved.

Not beside my RAW files.

DxO also has a local database. Probably it is saving there, but I am almost sure that the sidecar files take precedence (like it also does on LR).

I'm fine with a local data base as king as I don't see it. I have no sidecars on LR. Can't remember where I set that up.

This is the closest I could find.

 Zeee's gear list:Zeee's gear list
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phil from seattle
phil from seattle Senior Member • Posts: 3,229
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroom vs CaptureOne
2

bsas wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Editing on the road. I travel with a laptop and when I get home I merge the travel catalogue to the master one on the iMac. DXO has no catalogue so I would just move my files from potable ED to the powered one where all my files are stored. When I open DXO on the iMac will my edits be retained?

Yes, all the edits are stored in the DOP sidecar files (one for each RAW file you've edited). If you copy those along with the original RAW files to the iMac folder, PhotoLab will see and use them.

Thanks for the info. If I use it when I travel I'll turn them back on.

I must admit that I wasn't aware it was even possible to turn them off. Without them, where would DxO store the edit instructions?

It is for exporting and importing. I just edited an image, shut down and restarted DXO and the edits were retained. I looked through the Mac libraries and I cannot see where it is being saved.

Not beside my RAW files.

DxO also has a local database. Probably it is saving there, but I am almost sure that the sidecar files take precedence (like it also does on LR).

Local DB can be found at the bottom of the edit/preferences panel. On PCs it's in C:\Users\user_name\AppData\Roaming\DxO\DxO PhotoLab 1\Database

I tried a little test.

  1. Modified a .jpg file in PL. Saw that it created the sidecar.
  2. Exited PL.
  3. Deleted the sidecar file.
  4. Opened PL, opened the file I edited and the edits were still there.

So, they seem to be using both side-car and global database.

Then tested to see if the side-car takes precedence.

  1. Opened the file. Made a change to it. exited PL
  2. Renamed sidecar file (changed extension).
  3. Started PL, opened same file, Noted change I made in 1) was still there.
  4. Made another change to the file. Exited PL
  5. Deleted sidecar file from 4) and renamed side-car from 2) back to correct name.
  6. Started PL and opened the file. Changes from 4) were still there. Sidecar does not take precedence. Not liking this at all. what's the point of the sidecar then? (yes, I know, export)

Additionally, changing the sidecar settings via text editor doesn't get seen either. But if I do file/sidecars/import then PL picks up the changes. Behavior is the same for raw files as well.

In edit/preferences, I have checked "load sidecar automatically". Not sure what's going on here. Maybe I don't understand PL as well as I thought or there's a bug in sidecar handling.

Digital Nigel Veteran Member • Posts: 8,874
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroom vs CaptureOne

phil from seattle wrote:

bsas wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

Zeee wrote:

Editing on the road. I travel with a laptop and when I get home I merge the travel catalogue to the master one on the iMac. DXO has no catalogue so I would just move my files from potable ED to the powered one where all my files are stored. When I open DXO on the iMac will my edits be retained?

Yes, all the edits are stored in the DOP sidecar files (one for each RAW file you've edited). If you copy those along with the original RAW files to the iMac folder, PhotoLab will see and use them.

Thanks for the info. If I use it when I travel I'll turn them back on.

I must admit that I wasn't aware it was even possible to turn them off. Without them, where would DxO store the edit instructions?

It is for exporting and importing. I just edited an image, shut down and restarted DXO and the edits were retained. I looked through the Mac libraries and I cannot see where it is being saved.

Not beside my RAW files.

DxO also has a local database. Probably it is saving there, but I am almost sure that the sidecar files take precedence (like it also does on LR).

Local DB can be found at the bottom of the edit/preferences panel. On PCs it's in C:\Users\user_name\AppData\Roaming\DxO\DxO PhotoLab 1\Database

I tried a little test.

  1. Modified a .jpg file in PL. Saw that it created the sidecar.
  2. Exited PL.
  3. Deleted the sidecar file.
  4. Opened PL, opened the file I edited and the edits were still there.

So, they seem to be using both side-car and global database.

Then tested to see if the side-car takes precedence.

  1. Opened the file. Made a change to it. exited PL
  2. Renamed sidecar file (changed extension).
  3. Started PL, opened same file, Noted change I made in 1) was still there.
  4. Made another change to the file. Exited PL
  5. Deleted sidecar file from 4) and renamed side-car from 2) back to correct name.
  6. Started PL and opened the file. Changes from 4) were still there. Sidecar does not take precedence. Not liking this at all. what's the point of the sidecar then? (yes, I know, export)

Additionally, changing the sidecar settings via text editor doesn't get seen either. But if I do file/sidecars/import then PL picks up the changes. Behavior is the same for raw files as well.

In edit/preferences, I have checked "load sidecar automatically". Not sure what's going on here. Maybe I don't understand PL as well as I thought or there's a bug in sidecar handling.

That's interesting. I'd always assumed that all the edit information was just stored in the DOP files. However, I'd not through the following behaviour:

When I first open a new folder in PhotoLab, it seems to invisibly apply all the settings from the current default preset to all the images in the folder, but no DOP files are created unless I open and edit images. So these settings must be stored in the database.

If I then change some settings in the default preset, these will be applied to any new folders I open, but not to unopened images in previously opened folders. If I subsequently open one of those images for the first time, I'll see it has the edits from the previous default preset, not the current one. I can, of course, manually apply the current preset.

So, obviously, those initial edit settings must have been stored in the database, despite there being no DOP files. If I subsequently edit any of the images, a DOP file will be created for it. I hadn't thought about it, but the database is presumably also updated.

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phil from seattle
phil from seattle Senior Member • Posts: 3,229
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroom vs CaptureOne
1

OK, a little bit more on this. I renamed the database file and started PL. Went to a directory where I have about 2600 image files, some of which I had previously edited and exported to JPG. PL shows check marks on the images I edited and exported but doesn't show the edits in the thumbnail. When I click on the thumbnail, it reads the .dop file, applies the edits and updates the thumbnail. So if the database doesn't mark a file as edited and there is a .dop, PL picks up the .dop and applies it. That's what the automatically apply sidecar setting is about.

I think this makes sense. I'd guess that the centralized DB is to speed up processing a large directory of image files. It got about twice as slow in handling big directories when they went from OP to PL. I have a note to myself to spend some time figuring out how to speed that up.

tokumeino Senior Member • Posts: 2,409
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroom vs CaptureOne

I don't know if DPR;s gallery is to blame but the most important difference to my eyes between your pictures 1 and 2, is the way the blurred background is rendered. And you don't need to zoom to see the difference. I strongly prefer the LR version.

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tokumeino Senior Member • Posts: 2,409
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroo vs CaptureOne

Digital Nigel wrote:

[...]

Volume deformation is a consequence of the wide angle. It's not a lens fault, and is different to lens distortion. Consequently, no lens is free of volume deformation.

Thus, the Laowa wide angle lenses have exactly the same wide angle volume deformation as other lenses.

The volume deformation is very apparent in these Ken Rockwell sample images:
https://kenrockwell.com/tech/laowa/12mm.htm

He could have easily fixed it if he had been using DxO Viewpoint.

I fully agree about the principle, and I also agree that Viewpoint is super nice. Since geometry is immediately visible, I also think that it is much more important than Prime or such. I just cannot understand how people can be so picky about microscopic and invisible details, and not care about obvious things even visible at 320x200 !!

When it comes to gemoetry control, I would say that DXO-VP > C1P >> LR, with the opensource solution Darktable roughly like C1P. Whe you own a mirrorles or a compact camera with integrated profiles, LR forbids you to disable the profile and take advantage of the whole sensor surface !!

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Zeee Forum Pro • Posts: 18,892
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroo vs CaptureOne

tokumeino wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

[...]

Volume deformation is a consequence of the wide angle. It's not a lens fault, and is different to lens distortion. Consequently, no lens is free of volume deformation.

Thus, the Laowa wide angle lenses have exactly the same wide angle volume deformation as other lenses.

The volume deformation is very apparent in these Ken Rockwell sample images:
https://kenrockwell.com/tech/laowa/12mm.htm

He could have easily fixed it if he had been using DxO Viewpoint.

I fully agree about the principle, and I also agree that Viewpoint is super nice. Since geometry is immediately visible, I also think that it is much more important than Prime or such. I just cannot understand how people can be so picky about microscopic and invisible details, and not care about obvious things even visible at 320x200 !!

That is why I'm so torn between the 2. Sure Prime is good but I was doing some other tests last night. Almost a minute and thirty seconds to export a DXO file and about 7 seconds  for LR. If need to add a little more sharpening the LR export I can open it in PS and apply PK sharpener. DXO has been helpful as I was able to set up DeHaze to match ClearView.

When I post on other forums that are more for image posting I know I'll never get this response. "Good thing you used DXO instead of LR". People don't know the difference unless you tell them. There is more to photography than NR. Things like composition, etc, etc. Bansky sold a pile of krap for 1.4 million the other day.

I wouldn't have and issue getting rid of LR but I have a website via Portfolio. No DAM with DXO which I could live with but at least a stack showing me what edits I did.

When it comes to gemoetry control, I would say that DXO-VP > C1P >> LR, with the opensource solution Darktable roughly like C1P. Whe you own a mirrorles or a compact camera with integrated profiles, LR forbids you to disable the profile and take advantage of the whole sensor surface !!

 Zeee's gear list:Zeee's gear list
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Zeee Forum Pro • Posts: 18,892
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroo vs CaptureOne

Zeee wrote:

tokumeino wrote:

Digital Nigel wrote:

[...]

Volume deformation is a consequence of the wide angle. It's not a lens fault, and is different to lens distortion. Consequently, no lens is free of volume deformation.

Thus, the Laowa wide angle lenses have exactly the same wide angle volume deformation as other lenses.

The volume deformation is very apparent in these Ken Rockwell sample images:
https://kenrockwell.com/tech/laowa/12mm.htm

He could have easily fixed it if he had been using DxO Viewpoint.

I fully agree about the principle, and I also agree that Viewpoint is super nice. Since geometry is immediately visible, I also think that it is much more important than Prime or such. I just cannot understand how people can be so picky about microscopic and invisible details, and not care about obvious things even visible at 320x200 !!

That is why I'm so torn between the 2. Sure Prime is good but I was doing some other tests last night. Almost a minute and thirty seconds to export a DXO file and about 7 seconds for LR. If need to add a little more sharpening the LR export I can open it in PS and apply PK sharpener. DXO has been helpful as I was able to set up DeHaze to match ClearView.

When I post on other forums that are more for image posting I know I'll never get this response. "Good thing you used DXO instead of LR". People don't know the difference unless you tell them. There is more to photography than NR. Things like composition, etc, etc. Bansky sold a pile of krap for 1.4 million the other day.

I wouldn't have and issue getting rid of LR but I have a website via Portfolio. No DAM with DXO which I could live with but at least a stack showing me what edits I did.

I had to step out. I know I would never edit event photography using DXO. I did an engagement shoot about 3 weeks ago. After a break you go back and look at some images you spot something else. With a history stack it is so easy to tweak.

If I did a lot of architectural work I'd have a serious look at Viewpoint. It looked pretty good from the brief things I have seen.

I stopped doing event photography and that last shoot was a favour. The couple loved them. Like I said I could live without a DAM. If I dropped the plan I could sill export all my previous years of edits. Adobe hasn't done anything to tick me off yet so I'll continue to work with both.

When it comes to gemoetry control, I would say that DXO-VP > C1P >> LR, with the opensource solution Darktable roughly like C1P. Whe you own a mirrorles or a compact camera with integrated profiles, LR forbids you to disable the profile and take advantage of the whole sensor surface !!

 Zeee's gear list:Zeee's gear list
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Zeee Forum Pro • Posts: 18,892
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroom vs CaptureOne

phil from seattle wrote:

OK, a little bit more on this. I renamed the database file and started PL. Went to a directory where I have about 2600 image files, some of which I had previously edited and exported to JPG. PL shows check marks on the images I edited and exported but doesn't show the edits in the thumbnail. When I click on the thumbnail, it reads the .dop file, applies the edits and updates the thumbnail. So if the database doesn't mark a file as edited and there is a .dop, PL picks up the .dop and applies it. That's what the automatically apply sidecar setting is about.

I think this makes sense. I'd guess that the centralized DB is to speed up processing a large directory of image files. It got about twice as slow in handling big directories when they went from OP to PL. I have a note to myself to spend some time figuring out how to speed that up.

Thanks for the info. I have the Preferences XMP boxes unchecked in both the Process and Advanced dialogue boxes. When I shut down and restart my DXO the edits are still there. I do like that.

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phil from seattle
phil from seattle Senior Member • Posts: 3,229
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroo vs CaptureOne
3

Zeee wrote:

I had to step out. I know I would never edit event photography using DXO. I did an engagement shoot about 3 weeks ago. After a break you go back and look at some images you spot something else. With a history stack it is so easy to tweak.

One of the reasons I like DxO is that I don't need to deal with the complexity of layers. A few tweaks here and there and you're done.  Though, the lack of layers means that things like you want aren't available and more sophisticated techniques are out of reach.

It looks to me to be a classic trade off - simple and fast vs sophisticated and slow(er). Since the vast majority of my editing is simple, DxO works well for me.

By the way, I think (though am not 100% sure) that DxO operations are order invariant. I.E., you get the same result no matter what order you apply them in.

CAcreeks
CAcreeks Forum Pro • Posts: 13,701
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroom vs CaptureOne

Returning to the original topic...

When I see comparisons on the Fuji X forum, Capture One always produces the best looking colors. PhotoLab isn't in the running because DxO does not support X-Trans, or Fuji cameras at all, if I'm not mistaken.

Back when I still had Windows 7, I tried DxO PhotoLab "prime" noise reduction on some small sensor (1" Sony) Raw files, and was blown away by high ISO results. It may be possible to equal these results with other methods, but with DxO Prime, all I had to do was wait a while.

Capture One hasn't been mentioned in any recent posts to this thread...

Zeee Forum Pro • Posts: 18,892
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroo vs CaptureOne

phil from seattle wrote:

Zeee wrote:

I had to step out. I know I would never edit event photography using DXO. I did an engagement shoot about 3 weeks ago. After a break you go back and look at some images you spot something else. With a history stack it is so easy to tweak.

One of the reasons I like DxO is that I don't need to deal with the complexity of layers. A few tweaks here and there and you're done. Though, the lack of layers means that things like you want aren't available and more sophisticated techniques are out of reach.

It looks to me to be a classic trade off - simple and fast vs sophisticated and slow(er). Since the vast majority of my editing is simple, DxO works well for me.

I doubt I'll ever say say DXO is more sophisticated. Since LR added Sensei, after import I can export a completely edited file in about under seconds, if I want to. You can match ClearView using Dehaze. I just did one and it took 23 seconds to have a files on the desktop.

I 'll have admit it took a while (evolution over time) to get to that in bits and pieces. One thing I didn't like about DXO when I first tried it about 10 years ago is how it took over. I had my own workflow with PS and preferred to do most edits myself. DXO has it's strengths and weaknesses compared to LR but I think the major factor is LR is missing an AI NR option. I got Topaz AI Clear which is good but slow and locks everything up while doing it's thing. I only use other NR about 10% of the time.

By the way, I think (though am not 100% sure) that DxO operations are order invariant. I.E., you get the same result no matter what order you apply them in.

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Digital Nigel Veteran Member • Posts: 8,874
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroo vs CaptureOne

phil from seattle wrote:

Zeee wrote:

I had to step out. I know I would never edit event photography using DXO. I did an engagement shoot about 3 weeks ago. After a break you go back and look at some images you spot something else. With a history stack it is so easy to tweak.

One of the reasons I like DxO is that I don't need to deal with the complexity of layers. A few tweaks here and there and you're done. Though, the lack of layers means that things like you want aren't available and more sophisticated techniques are out of reach.

It looks to me to be a classic trade off - simple and fast vs sophisticated and slow(er). Since the vast majority of my editing is simple, DxO works well for me.

By the way, I think (though am not 100% sure) that DxO operations are order invariant. I.E., you get the same result no matter what order you apply them in.

That's correct, though it makes sense to adjust exposure before smart lighting, etc.

I now have a fast enough machine that the extra time taken for PRIME is insignificant, so I've changed my default preset to make PRIME my normal default. It makes editing even quicker, as I have so little I need to change from the default in most images. Including straightening and cropping, it's under a minute editing time per image, and they process in under half a minute, even with PRIME.

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phil from seattle
phil from seattle Senior Member • Posts: 3,229
Re: DxO PhotoLab vs Lightroo vs CaptureOne

Digital Nigel wrote:

phil from seattle wrote:

One of the reasons I like DxO is that I don't need to deal with the complexity of layers. A few tweaks here and there and you're done. Though, the lack of layers means that things like you want aren't available and more sophisticated techniques are out of reach.

It looks to me to be a classic trade off - simple and fast vs sophisticated and slow(er). Since the vast majority of my editing is simple, DxO works well for me.

By the way, I think (though am not 100% sure) that DxO operations are order invariant. I.E., you get the same result no matter what order you apply them in.

That's correct, though it makes sense to adjust exposure before smart lighting, etc.

I now have a fast enough machine that the extra time taken for PRIME is insignificant, so I've changed my default preset to make PRIME my normal default. It makes editing even quicker, as I have so little I need to change from the default in most images. Including straightening and cropping, it's under a minute editing time per image, and they process in under half a minute, even with PRIME.

Yeah, there are clearly things you should do first.  Lighting and WB spring to mind. Also, all global before local. And, since it happens at export, NR happens last.

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