Where are the Olympus cameras?....

Donald B wrote:

syberman7 wrote:

James Stirling wrote:

Base ISO DR the biggest weakness of m43 due to the shadow noise , size of sensor we cannot change and thus that difference is unavoidable. However it is greatly compounded by that damn 200 base ISO . Dpreview does not have DR test for the E-M5 1 but the mark two and other cameras use the same sensor. Think about it a base ISO shooter like myself can get as clean a shadow push on a Sony 1" sensor camera that sensor is roughly half the area of a m43 sensor,

Ouch. Wow that D500 APSC looks fantastic. Olympus should at least be able to get close to that with M43.

that's because it uses raw processing in camera.

Don

Don, there is no system with more fiddled with RAW files than m43

MEDISN wrote:

James Stirling wrote:

Okapi001 wrote:

cpt kent wrote:

2016 - Three (that’s better) - E-M1ii, Pen F, E-PL8

They are too good;-) Even after 2 years, E-M1 II is still one of the most feature-rich camera, regardless of system. It's hard to beat 80 mpix hi-res, 60 frames/sec ...

Yep that is why Olympus camera division makes so much money , oh wait....

Neither does The Boring Company's "Not-A-FlameThrower" but they sure are fun.

I had to Google that as I did not get the reference What the hell were they thinking

The 80mpix thing gives at best 50mp of detail it is no better than the results from multiple high MP FF cameras

You say that like it's a bad thing! I can get 50MP OOC from a $1000 pocket cam. Remind me how much those "high MP FF" camera's cost?

I can do the same by stitching images from any camera the old way with the same limitations it just tales a bit longer in post

, with the serious limitations of having to be bolted to a tripod

Here we go again. This simply isn't the case. The camera must be stationary, that is all.

Look at any of the vegetation in the image I am sorry but that is not sharp

Camera balanced on a wet log

Camera leaning against a water bottle

I very rarely travel with a tripod and when I do it's a 120g UltraPod.

I think looking at the pictures a heavier tripod may be useful It is not just about getting bigger files they need to be sharp . When you look at the little things that move like vegetation blowing in the wind the flags in the monument image , the weird look to the moving smoke and water

and only useful on an absolutely static subject.

Or not...

This is no doubt handy within its shooting niche and I am hoping for an evolution of it going forward. You can of course get higher resolution the old fashioned way on any camera stuck on a tripod. It just takes a bit longer in post

Why bother when a $1000 pocket camera can generate a 50MP JPG and upload right from your phone? No need to purchase additional software and camp out at your computer.

The point is if I want big files by taking and stitching 8 images I can do it with any camera . My phone sucks I think it would choke on a 50mp file

We need a genuine jump in image quality not features/gimmicks whatever you non- Luddites want to call them :-).

How much of a jump? To what end? Those "gimmicks" (high-res, live-composite, focus stacking, live bulb, time-lapse, Pro-Capture) accounted for 22% of my 4- and 5- star photos last year. Should I go back and delete those??

Most of those are gimmicks as far as I am concerned . I want a lower base ISO, cleaner shadows and a few more MP that I do not need to use a tripod for

Despite the ever amusing claims to the contrary that every Olympus camera since the E-M5 mk1 is a stop better it is abject nonsense { you are probably one of these optimistic chaps } If you added up all the claimed "stops better" in the forum we would have the best image quality in the world

Where was this said? Since you love DxO so much, there was a 13% improvement in sensor score from the EM5 - EM1mkII, yet only a 5% improvement in sensor score from the A7R to A7RIII. How can that be??

Those numbers are nonsense as can be very clearly seen looking at RAW files where the rubber hits the road.

Here is the 2012 E-M5 vs the current 20mp E-M1II

Base ISO E-M5 up-sized to match E-MI II , that is a Feb 2012 model vs the best we currently have available , I fail to see years of advances in image quality . If you want features/ gimmicks happy days

3200 ISO I would not even shoot this high with m43, the E-M1II at the same output size is not even a stop better . I do not really care if ISO's above this are marginally less terrible than the other because they are all terrible

Same lack of progress we see in FF high-MP and DR cams over the same 5 year time period.

They don't need it they already have all the things missing from m43 files . That is my point . I already have two 42mp FF bodies, and a 36mp FF body with clean shadows and the rest . It is debatable how much more FF needs regarding image quality advances. m43 could do with a few . As the Sony 1" sensors are getting more of the latest sensor tech before m43 I can see the gap closing .

The data looks like m43 has lost some market share. If the system gets much smaller the cost of developing new sensors in a size and ratio that no one else uses certainly no volume markets ,will increase per unit cost. When Sony makes an APS sensor it is used in their own cameras, in Nikon and Fuji and Pentax cameras . Same story with FF sensors, their 1" sensors are now used by Sony, Panasonic & Canon.

Base ISO DR the biggest weakness of m43 due to the shadow noise , size of sensor we cannot change and thus that difference is unavoidable. However it is greatly compounded by that damn 200 base ISO . Dpreview does not have DR test for the E-M5 1 but the mark two and other cameras use the same sensor. Think about it a base ISO shooter like myself can get as clean a shadow push on a Sony 1" sensor camera that sensor is roughly half the area of a m43 sensor,

And now you've sacrificed shutter speed. Match the shutter speeds of the D500 and Rx100 to the Olympus and watch what happens. But realistically, who is lifting shadows 5 EV? Why not expose for the shadows then?

It is only extreme on m43 because the results are terrible , in any of the Sony sensor APS or FF cameras the results are clean . For landscape shooting I am always shooting at base ISO I can get fine speeds at 64 or 100ISO I do not need to shoot at 200ISO . When your DR is limited you can either expose for shadows and impact the highlights or vice versa

Those PDR tests really have little bearing on actual results , the fact that he uses the stated ISO by the manufacturer making zero attempt to compare like to like makes me doubt them as a comparison tool

Take a look at DPreviews controlled RAW DR test at their respective base ISO, do you think that the E-M1 II is a stop better than the RX100 mk5 at their best settings ?

Yep we have now had 6 and half years with tiny real world advances in image quality , by the time the wonder camera comes along they will have had over 7 yrs to give us a meaningful upgrade. Which with regards to image quality I would argue they have not give us since Feb 2012, but man those features

This is true across all formats. There haven't been any meaningful IQ improvements in sensors since the 36MP Sony's hit in 2012.

The 36MP sensor arrived in the D800 in 2012 , Sony started using it in 2013

Honest question, Jim. Have you ever used Live Composite, Live Bulb, Pro-Capture, High-Res, or Focus Stacking?

I have been able to do focus stacking for decades :-), I can stitch images together from any camera and given the average age of the forum members I suspect that most will have been doing the same.

Live composite and live bulb are probably useful especially for some niche subjects , handy for low light stuff in a system with noise problems . I do not have a camera with pro-capture though I have tried the similar Panasonic 4k burst mode . There are numerous test sites posting hundreds of RAW files to see samples of pixel shift or anything else you want to look at.

Like everyone else in the forum I have spent a good few quid on m43 and stuck with it since 2009 . I firmly believe that we do not need more features/gimmicks , unless there is some magical way to accelerate the pixel shift mode by a significant margin in which case I will east humble pie and jump on the camera Failing that is it really outrageous to want cleaner base ISO with a few more MP ? As far as photography goes I am indeed a Luddite and for me personally I am not making a joke when I call most of the features gimmicks .

We have some superb lenses , great IBIS for video , my super camera which I am sure Olympus are busily developing right this minute Will come with a lower true base ISO and higher MP count , I do not care about how many FPS or pro-capture or most of the rest of the features unless they can do something clever with the pixel shift mode

I know I come a cross as a whinger but I honestly do not see my wants as outrageous . Hopefully the next wonder camera will answer all my wants

Donald B wrote:

James Stirling wrote:

Donald B wrote:

syberman7 wrote:

James Stirling wrote:

Base ISO DR the biggest weakness of m43 due to the shadow noise , size of sensor we cannot change and thus that difference is unavoidable. However it is greatly compounded by that damn 200 base ISO . Dpreview does not have DR test for the E-M5 1 but the mark two and other cameras use the same sensor. Think about it a base ISO shooter like myself can get as clean a shadow push on a Sony 1" sensor camera that sensor is roughly half the area of a m43 sensor,

Ouch. Wow that D500 APSC looks fantastic. Olympus should at least be able to get close to that with M43.

that's because it uses raw processing in camera.

Don

Don, there is no system with more fiddled with RAW files than m43

Nikon

Don

No one , it is what it is though Here is one Optical gurus opinion on it

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61232284

He is not very happy about what they do with software and lenses either

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61232419

The reason is of course down to a larger sensor which we cannot avoid , and that accursed 200 base ISO which could very easily be changed. please Olympus or Panasonic

Tuonov2 wrote:

Brick_Shooter_Pro wrote:

Tuonov2 wrote:

cpt kent wrote:

2018 - One new camera this year - E-PL9

2017 - One last year - E-M10iii

2016 - Three (that’s better) - E-M1ii, Pen F, E-PL8

2015 - Three - most notably, that’s the last E-M5 model...

(source: DPR product timeline)

I’m not saying they need to introduce something every 6 months, but the last couple of years have been a bit baron.

I only looked because I’m wondering, WHERE IS THE E-m5iii ???

I've never understood the need for constant iteration. The capabilities and reliability of present day camera gear is fantastic, if you can't find a current model to suit your needs there's something wrong.

that's right... it is the user's fault. I buy a new car every ten years. There is no need for the manufacturer to improve their offerings during that decade.

I didn't say there was no need for improvement, I said there's no need for constant iteration. Would it not be better for a real significant improvements every 4 or five years than slight improvements every year or two?

It means development dollars can be focused on real noticeable advancements rather than wasting them on iterative updates just to keep the 'I need a new model now' crowd happy.

Meanwhile Olympus in 2018 are releasing a 16mp sensor camera . When the first 20mp model came out in 2015

MEDISN wrote:

James Stirling wrote:

MEDISN wrote:

James Stirling wrote:

Okapi001 wrote:

cpt kent wrote:

2016 - Three (that’s better) - E-M1ii, Pen F, E-PL8

They are too good;-) Even after 2 years, E-M1 II is still one of the most feature-rich camera, regardless of system. It's hard to beat 80 mpix hi-res, 60 frames/sec ...

Yep that is why Olympus camera division makes so much money , oh wait....

Neither does The Boring Company's "Not-A-FlameThrower" but they sure are fun.

I had to Google that as I did not get the reference What the hell were they thinking

The 80mpix thing gives at best 50mp of detail it is no better than the results from multiple high MP FF cameras

You say that like it's a bad thing! I can get 50MP OOC from a $1000 pocket cam. Remind me how much those "high MP FF" camera's cost?

I can do the same by stitching images from any camera the old way with the same limitations it just tales a bit longer in post

How much time does that take away from actual shooting? How much does that software cost? Does stitching images increase DR? Does it eliminate moire?

Yes it does eliminate moire, and increase DR

https://photography.tutsplus.com/tutorials/how-to-create-high-dynamic-range-and-panoramic-images-in-adobe-lightroom--cms-23982

, with the serious limitations of having to be bolted to a tripod

Here we go again. This simply isn't the case. The camera must be stationary, that is all.

Look at any of the vegetation in the image I am sorry but that is not sharp

It was shot with a 9-18. Not exactly a sharp lens.

Well get the big guns out

Camera balanced on a wet log

Camera leaning against a water bottle

I very rarely travel with a tripod and when I do it's a 120g UltraPod.

I think looking at the pictures a heavier tripod may be useful It is not just about getting bigger files they need to be sharp .

You’re looking at a compressed 8-bit JPG with minimal sharpening in Lightroom. If I wanted sharp, I would toss it to Ps and unsharp mask with excellent results.

When you look at the little things that move like vegetation blowing in the wind the flags in the monument image , the weird look to the moving smoke and water

At long exposures ANY movement is going to get blurred. Nothing to do with high-res.

The pixel shift mode needs multiple times longer exposure than one shot from a high res shot and is therefore impacted by motion much more than single shots

and only useful on an absolutely static subject.

Or not...

This is no doubt handy within its shooting niche and I am hoping for an evolution of it going forward. You can of course get higher resolution the old fashioned way on any camera stuck on a tripod. It just takes a bit longer in post

Why bother when a $1000 pocket camera can generate a 50MP JPG and upload right from your phone? No need to purchase additional software and camp out at your computer.

The point is if I want big files by taking and stitching 8 images I can do it with any camera . My phone sucks I think it would choke on a 50mp file

And I can stitch 8 high-res images together, now what? 😆

Man that would be cool too see and involve a wee bit computer time

We need a genuine jump in image quality not features/gimmicks whatever you non- Luddites want to call them :-).

How much of a jump? To what end? Those "gimmicks" (high-res, live-composite, focus stacking, live bulb, time-lapse, Pro-Capture) accounted for 22% of my 4- and 5- star photos last year. Should I go back and delete those??

Most of those are gimmicks as far as I am concerned . I want a lower base ISO, cleaner shadows and a few more MP that I do not need to use a tripod for

Lucky for the rest of us, we’re not constrained by your preferences 😝

Just you wait the photo gods are listing to all my pleas , its a coming

Despite the ever amusing claims to the contrary that every Olympus camera since the E-M5 mk1 is a stop better it is abject nonsense { you are probably one of these optimistic chaps } If you added up all the claimed "stops better" in the forum we would have the best image quality in the world

Where was this said? Since you love DxO so much, there was a 13% improvement in sensor score from the EM5 - EM1mkII, yet only a 5% improvement in sensor score from the A7R to A7RIII. How can that be??

Those numbers are nonsense as can be very clearly seen looking at RAW files where the rubber hits the road.

They’re DxO numbers. You love DxO! Subjective assessment aside, I see no meaningful difference in any of the high MP FF sensors since 2012.

Here is the 2012 E-M5 vs the current 20mp E-M1II

Base ISO E-M5 up-sized to match E-MI II , that is a Feb 2012 model vs the best we currently have available , I fail to see years of advances in image quality . If you want features/ gimmicks happy days

3200 ISO I would not even shoot this high with m43, the E-M1II at the same output size is not even a stop better . I do not really care if ISO's above this are marginally less terrible than the other because they are all terrible

Same lack of progress we see in FF high-MP and DR cams over the same 5 year time period.

They don't need it they already have all the things missing from m43 files . That is my point . I already have two 42mp FF bodies, and a 36mp FF body with clean shadows and the rest . It is debatable how much more FF needs regarding image quality advances. m43 could do with a few .

Sounds rather arbitrary. Who decides what is good enough for which format?

The guy parting with the cash to buy it

As the Sony 1" sensors are getting more of the latest sensor tech before m43 I can see the gap closing .

Which 1” sensor has 10ms readout and the dynamic range of the EM1mkII from 2016?

At their respective base ISO you can see that the Sony 1" sensor is pretty similar to the E-M1II

The data looks like m43 has lost some market share

And? Nikon and Sony both experienced larger sales declines than Olympus did last year. Canon is flat.

If the system gets much smaller the cost of developing new sensors in a size and ratio that no one else uses certainly no volume markets ,will increase per unit cost. When Sony makes an APS sensor it is used in their own cameras, in Nikon and Fuji and Pentax cameras . Same story with FF sensors, their 1" sensors are now used by Sony, Panasonic & Canon.

Base ISO DR the biggest weakness of m43 due to the shadow noise , size of sensor we cannot change and thus that difference is unavoidable. However it is greatly compounded by that damn 200 base ISO . Dpreview does not have DR test for the E-M5 1 but the mark two and other cameras use the same sensor. Think about it a base ISO shooter like myself can get as clean a shadow push on a Sony 1" sensor camera that sensor is roughly half the area of a m43 sensor,

And now you've sacrificed shutter speed. Match the shutter speeds of the D500 and Rx100 to the Olympus and watch what happens. But realistically, who is lifting shadows 5 EV? Why not expose for the shadows then?

It is only extreme on m43 because the results are terrible , in any of the Sony sensor APS or FF cameras the results are clean . For landscape shooting I am always shooting at base ISO I can get fine speeds at 64 or 100ISO I do not need to shoot at 200ISO . When your DR is limited you can either expose for shadows and impact the highlights or vice versa

Which is why, if the scene requires, I expose for the shadows - a common approach. +1EV clean shadows with little to no impact on highlights on Olympus files. i.e. ISO 100.

Those PDR tests really have little bearing on actual results , the fact that he uses the stated ISO by the manufacturer making zero attempt to compare like to like makes me doubt them as a comparison tool

If you don’t like the results, dismiss the test! The curve might be shifted left but the values measured remain.

Take a look at DPreviews controlled RAW DR test at their respective base ISO, do you think that the E-M1 II is a stop better than the RX100 mk5 at their best settings ?

When I download RAW and open in ACR, yes. Especially as ISO increases.

As the ISO increases I agree with you but my ISO rarely increases

Yep we have now had 6 and half years with tiny real world advances in image quality , by the time the wonder camera comes along they will have had over 7 yrs to give us a meaningful upgrade. Which with regards to image quality I would argue they have not give us since Feb 2012, but man those features

This is true across all formats. There haven't been any meaningful IQ improvements in sensors since the 36MP Sony's hit in 2012.

The 36MP sensor arrived in the D800 in 2012 , Sony started using it in 2013

And was still a Sony sensor. Same old song and dance.

Honest question, Jim. Have you ever used Live Composite, Live Bulb, Pro-Capture, High-Res, or Focus Stacking?

I have been able to do focus stacking for decades :-), I can stitch images together from any camera and given the average age of the forum members I suspect that most will have been doing the same.

So I have to be at a computer, purchase additional software. How long does this take? What is that time worth to me? A cheap Olympus can do it in a few seconds and share instantly. Simple.

We have been shooting digital for many years I suspect there are few of us without computers or software . It is part of the fun for me just like developing and printing was part of the film experience. Without the toxic chemicals and you can do it in the light with a nice cup of tea

Live composite and live bulb are probably useful especially for some niche subjects , handy for low light stuff in a system with noise problems . I do not have a camera with pro-capture though I have tried the similar Panasonic 4k burst mode . There are numerous test sites posting hundreds of RAW files to see samples of pixel shift or anything else you want to look at.

Living vicariously through others? 🤣 So you have ZERO first-hand experience with these features yet refer to them as gimmicks. Okay Jim!

I am a Luddite , I have similar chats in the Sony forum where some assure me it is nigh on impossible to take a portrait without using eye-AF Though I am going to try this out of curiosity

Like everyone else in the forum I have spent a good few quid on m43 and stuck with it since 2009 . I firmly believe that we do not need more features/gimmicks ,

You’re not the only user!

Every m43 camera since the start has had a good feature set which has expanded in every generation . In fact if features were the gold standard of cameras , I honestly think the likes of the E-M1II and G9 would be very hard to trump in any system at any price.

unless there is some magical way to accelerate the pixel shift mode by a significant margin in which case I will east humble pie and jump on the camera Failing that is it really outrageous to want cleaner base ISO with a few more MP ? As far as photography goes I am indeed a Luddite and for me personally I am not making a joke when I call most of the features gimmicks .

You seem to have little photography interest outside of base ISO, high MP, heavy tripod landscape. Correct me if I’m wrong, I’ve never seen you share any of your work. If that is your primary interest, I’m not sure mFT was ever a good choice for you. That certainly wouldn’t be a reason for me to choose mFT.

I get this often , I post images regularly in the forums I post in the themed threads now and again . I post my landscape shots in more photography orientated forums which DPreview isn't . The problem is keeping up with my banned ID's I also do a fair bit of 4k video shooting which Panasonic in particular does very well. If I am at a party photographing my idiot mates doing some daft stuff when drunk { ah the joys of being a boring teetotaller }. I am not going to be using a large camera lens and tripod.

A wee fun snap I posted in the weekly photo thread last week , when my side of the bed was stolen by a handsome chap. I recently posted a batch of test shots on the Sony forum . For some reason I have a lot of trouble uploading to DPreview galleries

If that pixel shift mode can be accelerated notably by some Olympus voodoo .m43 could turn out to be the perfect landscape kit. High image quality , a great selection of lenses , in a small form factor ideal for hiking about the countryside

We have some superb lenses , great IBIS for video , my super camera which I am sure Olympus are busily developing right this minute Will come with a lower true base ISO and higher MP count , I do not care about how many FPS or pro-capture or most of the rest of the features unless they can do something clever with the pixel shift mode

Yet, I’ve come to employ on those “gimmicks” rather frequently. Adding a lower base ISO would be a bonus but I still want innovations that cater to my photographic interests.

I know I come a cross as a whinger but I honestly do not see my wants as outrageous . Hopefully the next wonder camera will answer all my wants

Lower base ISO is not too much to ask. But just because you don’t use in camera tools doesn’t mean the rest of us can’t 😜

Oh I am not saying do not put the gimmicks/features in just show those of us who do not need them some love. If they want to throw in a 100fps mode with the lower base ISO higher MP sensor I will not complain. My moaning is not about all the features per se but the lack of what matters to me . Yes I am being selfish , yes I am moaning and yes I am a PITA

MEDISN wrote:

James Stirling wrote:

MEDISN wrote:

James Stirling wrote:

Okapi001 wrote:

cpt kent wrote:

2016 - Three (that’s better) - E-M1ii, Pen F, E-PL8

They are too good;-) Even after 2 years, E-M1 II is still one of the most feature-rich camera, regardless of system. It's hard to beat 80 mpix hi-res, 60 frames/sec ...

Yep that is why Olympus camera division makes so much money , oh wait....

Neither does The Boring Company's "Not-A-FlameThrower" but they sure are fun.

I had to Google that as I did not get the reference What the hell were they thinking

The 80mpix thing gives at best 50mp of detail it is no better than the results from multiple high MP FF cameras

You say that like it's a bad thing! I can get 50MP OOC from a $1000 pocket cam. Remind me how much those "high MP FF" camera's cost?

I can do the same by stitching images from any camera the old way with the same limitations it just tales a bit longer in post

How much time does that take away from actual shooting? How much does that software cost? Does stitching images increase DR? Does it eliminate moire?

, with the serious limitations of having to be bolted to a tripod

Here we go again. This simply isn't the case. The camera must be stationary, that is all.

Look at any of the vegetation in the image I am sorry but that is not sharp

It was shot with a 9-18. Not exactly a sharp lens.

Camera balanced on a wet log

Camera leaning against a water bottle

I very rarely travel with a tripod and when I do it's a 120g UltraPod.

I think looking at the pictures a heavier tripod may be useful It is not just about getting bigger files they need to be sharp .

You’re looking at a compressed 8-bit JPG with minimal sharpening in Lightroom. If I wanted sharp, I would toss it to Ps and unsharp mask with excellent results.

When you look at the little things that move like vegetation blowing in the wind the flags in the monument image , the weird look to the moving smoke and water

At long exposures ANY movement is going to get blurred. Nothing to do with high-res.

and only useful on an absolutely static subject.

Or not...

This is no doubt handy within its shooting niche and I am hoping for an evolution of it going forward. You can of course get higher resolution the old fashioned way on any camera stuck on a tripod. It just takes a bit longer in post

Why bother when a $1000 pocket camera can generate a 50MP JPG and upload right from your phone? No need to purchase additional software and camp out at your computer.

The point is if I want big files by taking and stitching 8 images I can do it with any camera . My phone sucks I think it would choke on a 50mp file

And I can stitch 8 high-res images together, now what? 😆

We need a genuine jump in image quality not features/gimmicks whatever you non- Luddites want to call them :-).

How much of a jump? To what end? Those "gimmicks" (high-res, live-composite, focus stacking, live bulb, time-lapse, Pro-Capture) accounted for 22% of my 4- and 5- star photos last year. Should I go back and delete those??

Most of those are gimmicks as far as I am concerned . I want a lower base ISO, cleaner shadows and a few more MP that I do not need to use a tripod for

Lucky for the rest of us, we’re not constrained by your preferences 😝

Despite the ever amusing claims to the contrary that every Olympus camera since the E-M5 mk1 is a stop better it is abject nonsense { you are probably one of these optimistic chaps } If you added up all the claimed "stops better" in the forum we would have the best image quality in the world

Where was this said? Since you love DxO so much, there was a 13% improvement in sensor score from the EM5 - EM1mkII, yet only a 5% improvement in sensor score from the A7R to A7RIII. How can that be??

Those numbers are nonsense as can be very clearly seen looking at RAW files where the rubber hits the road.

They’re DxO numbers. You love DxO! Subjective assessment aside, I see no meaningful difference in any of the high MP FF sensors since 2012.

Here is the 2012 E-M5 vs the current 20mp E-M1II

Base ISO E-M5 up-sized to match E-MI II , that is a Feb 2012 model vs the best we currently have available , I fail to see years of advances in image quality . If you want features/ gimmicks happy days

3200 ISO I would not even shoot this high with m43, the E-M1II at the same output size is not even a stop better . I do not really care if ISO's above this are marginally less terrible than the other because they are all terrible

Same lack of progress we see in FF high-MP and DR cams over the same 5 year time period.

They don't need it they already have all the things missing from m43 files . That is my point . I already have two 42mp FF bodies, and a 36mp FF body with clean shadows and the rest . It is debatable how much more FF needs regarding image quality advances. m43 could do with a few .

Sounds rather arbitrary. Who decides what is good enough for which format?

As the Sony 1" sensors are getting more of the latest sensor tech before m43 I can see the gap closing .

Which 1” sensor has 10ms readout and the dynamic range of the EM1mkII from 2016?

The data looks like m43 has lost some market share

And? Nikon and Sony both experienced larger sales declines than Olympus did last year. Canon is flat.

If the system gets much smaller the cost of developing new sensors in a size and ratio that no one else uses certainly no volume markets ,will increase per unit cost. When Sony makes an APS sensor it is used in their own cameras, in Nikon and Fuji and Pentax cameras . Same story with FF sensors, their 1" sensors are now used by Sony, Panasonic & Canon.

Base ISO DR the biggest weakness of m43 due to the shadow noise , size of sensor we cannot change and thus that difference is unavoidable. However it is greatly compounded by that damn 200 base ISO . Dpreview does not have DR test for the E-M5 1 but the mark two and other cameras use the same sensor. Think about it a base ISO shooter like myself can get as clean a shadow push on a Sony 1" sensor camera that sensor is roughly half the area of a m43 sensor,

And now you've sacrificed shutter speed. Match the shutter speeds of the D500 and Rx100 to the Olympus and watch what happens. But realistically, who is lifting shadows 5 EV? Why not expose for the shadows then?

It is only extreme on m43 because the results are terrible , in any of the Sony sensor APS or FF cameras the results are clean . For landscape shooting I am always shooting at base ISO I can get fine speeds at 64 or 100ISO I do not need to shoot at 200ISO . When your DR is limited you can either expose for shadows and impact the highlights or vice versa

Which is why, if the scene requires, I expose for the shadows - a common approach. +1EV clean shadows with little to no impact on highlights on Olympus files. i.e. ISO 100.

Those PDR tests really have little bearing on actual results , the fact that he uses the stated ISO by the manufacturer making zero attempt to compare like to like makes me doubt them as a comparison tool

If you don’t like the results, dismiss the test! The curve might be shifted left but the values measured remain.

Take a look at DPreviews controlled RAW DR test at their respective base ISO, do you think that the E-M1 II is a stop better than the RX100 mk5 at their best settings ?

When I download RAW and open in ACR, yes. Especially as ISO increases.

Yep we have now had 6 and half years with tiny real world advances in image quality , by the time the wonder camera comes along they will have had over 7 yrs to give us a meaningful upgrade. Which with regards to image quality I would argue they have not give us since Feb 2012, but man those features

This is true across all formats. There haven't been any meaningful IQ improvements in sensors since the 36MP Sony's hit in 2012.

The 36MP sensor arrived in the D800 in 2012 , Sony started using it in 2013

And was still a Sony sensor. Same old song and dance.

Honest question, Jim. Have you ever used Live Composite, Live Bulb, Pro-Capture, High-Res, or Focus Stacking?

I have been able to do focus stacking for decades :-), I can stitch images together from any camera and given the average age of the forum members I suspect that most will have been doing the same.

So I have to be at a computer, purchase additional software. How long does this take? What is that time worth to me? A cheap Olympus can do it in a few seconds and share instantly. Simple.

Live composite and live bulb are probably useful especially for some niche subjects , handy for low light stuff in a system with noise problems . I do not have a camera with pro-capture though I have tried the similar Panasonic 4k burst mode . There are numerous test sites posting hundreds of RAW files to see samples of pixel shift or anything else you want to look at.

Living vicariously through others? 🤣 So you have ZERO first-hand experience with these features yet refer to them as gimmicks. Okay Jim!

Like everyone else in the forum I have spent a good few quid on m43 and stuck with it since 2009 . I firmly believe that we do not need more features/gimmicks ,

You’re not the only user!

unless there is some magical way to accelerate the pixel shift mode by a significant margin in which case I will east humble pie and jump on the camera Failing that is it really outrageous to want cleaner base ISO with a few more MP ? As far as photography goes I am indeed a Luddite and for me personally I am not making a joke when I call most of the features gimmicks .

You seem to have little photography interest outside of base ISO, high MP, heavy tripod landscape. Correct me if I’m wrong, I’ve never seen you share any of your work. If that is your primary interest, I’m not sure mFT was ever a good choice for you. That certainly wouldn’t be a reason for me to choose mFT.

We have some superb lenses , great IBIS for video , my super camera which I am sure Olympus are busily developing right this minute Will come with a lower true base ISO and higher MP count , I do not care about how many FPS or pro-capture or most of the rest of the features unless they can do something clever with the pixel shift mode

Yet, I’ve come to employ on those “gimmicks” rather frequently. Adding a lower base ISO would be a bonus but I still want innovations that cater to my photographic interests.

I know I come a cross as a whinger but I honestly do not see my wants as outrageous . Hopefully the next wonder camera will answer all my wants

Lower base ISO is not too much to ask. But just because you don’t use in camera tools doesn’t mean the rest of us can’t 😜

I am married to the most beautiful woman in all the universe.

She loves me so much she tends our garden.

I sneak out at midnight, to take pictures of her garden.

Six seconds

My Olympus camera, doesn't need a tripod.

SpinOne wrote:

petreluk wrote:

SpinOne wrote:

cpt kent wrote:

2018 - One new camera this year - E-PL9

2017 - One last year - E-M10iii

2016 - Three (that’s better) - E-M1ii, Pen F, E-PL8

2015 - Three - most notably, that’s the last E-M5 model...

(source: DPR product timeline)

I’m not saying they need to introduce something every 6 months, but the last couple of years have been a bit baron.

I only looked because I’m wondering, WHERE IS THE E-m5iii ???

It will probably be out some time in 2019.

Digital cameras are mature, and Olympus is doing pretty well with the E-M1 ii and Pen-F. The E-M5 iii probably won't add much, except a few meaningless MP on the sensor, and better AF. Meaning, there is almost nothing you will be able to do with the E-M5 iii that you can't do right now with an E-M1 Mk i.

The days of revolutionary M43 hardware are pretty much over. So it goes.

Where I live both the E-M1 Mark II and the Pen F now a bit look overpriced for what you get. The competition has caught up, particularly things like the G9. In the meantime the midrange E-M5 Mark II is showing its age and could really do with a sensor bump and PDAF focusing. There’s plenty of scope for a refresh so far as I can see. I’d expect Oly to come out with a strong contender or two before long because otherwise they will start losing customers.

The G9 is $500 more than the E-M1 ii, and $400 more than the Pen-F. The G9 is also designed more for large lenses. I'm not sure they are direct competitors.

I don't see the E-M5 Mk ii "showing its age." The AF is not as good as it should be, but that's been true since the day it came out. Otherwise, it seems like it has more features than a Nikon Z. Again, other than AF, I just don't see any radical changes coming for an E-M5 iii.

The G9 and EM1 II are direct competitors for anyone in M43. They are the flagship cameras of the range. And where I live, Panny so far have been the more aggressive with tasty discounts/sales (though time limited as they always are).

”The AF is not as good as it should be” (EM1.2) is a lost sale right there, at this level in the market and now that we are rushing towards 2019. Market standards are very, very high these days as they should be if customers are being asked to part with $$$.

In the same way, offering 2012-era 16 mpx and no pdaf on a midrange item (EM5.2) is a lost sale by now too. It’s just not competitive. Fuji, Canon or whoever will happily take the biz instead.

It’s not a question of expecting radical change from any new model, usually a once-a-decade event, otherwise fantasy and hype. However, all the camera companies are in business to sell new product - or they go out of business. It”s up to Olympus not us to produce good new cameras with good reasons to upgrade or buy them from scratch. Otherwise, yes, Oly will start to lose sales as people drift away. That’s not a good road to start down. The risk is being left with a shrinking band of die-hard users and only few new ones coming in. After that you end up like poor Pentax. No thanks.

I’d guess that Oly will square this either by jumping to FF or by staying on M43 with a view to exiting the biz over the next few years. There’s no future in offering uncompetitive products at fancy prices.

James Stirling wrote:

. . . 3200 ISO I would not even shoot this high with m43, the E-M1II at the same output size is not even a stop better . I do not really care if ISO's above this are marginally less terrible than the other because they are all terrible . . .

MY APS-C and FF cameras do a little better at ISO 3200 than my E-M1 II, but would you describe these as terrible ?

Peter

Tommi K1 wrote:

E-M1 top model
E-M5 second best, with some prototype features that goes to E-M1
E-M10 entry level

Now, if you release lower model with new sensors and all that higher model doesn't have, you kill higher model.
If they release slightly upgraded lower model and after that a new generation in higher model, you kill sales of lower model. If you announce new tech to early in, you kill other sales as many starts to wait upgrades...

Let's say Olympus is going to release a global shutter 28Mpix sensor next with OSPDAF, 120 fps sequence speed, 1/64000 shutter speed, 2 stops better noise etc...

What is the model it should come out?

Okay, how about slightly better sensor (global shutter) but more new other features like previous pro-capture, live composite etc....

What model?

If E-M5 comes out now today with all better that E-M1 is, what does E-M1 sell for, for next 2 years? The grip alone?

Olympus is already doing E-M5 IV and E-M1 IV, wait to release them in next 4-5 years.

Easier if you would release something every year, but not if you have three tiers in same system that all competes with each others...

Unfortunately, Olympus is also competing against other companies that are happy to take sales away.

Common advice to people looking to acquire camera equipment is to focus on the glass. Olympus seems to be taking that advice.

petreluk wrote:

SpinOne wrote:

petreluk wrote:

SpinOne wrote:

cpt kent wrote:

2018 - One new camera this year - E-PL9

2017 - One last year - E-M10iii

2016 - Three (that’s better) - E-M1ii, Pen F, E-PL8

2015 - Three - most notably, that’s the last E-M5 model...

(source: DPR product timeline)

I’m not saying they need to introduce something every 6 months, but the last couple of years have been a bit baron.

I only looked because I’m wondering, WHERE IS THE E-m5iii ???

It will probably be out some time in 2019.

Digital cameras are mature, and Olympus is doing pretty well with the E-M1 ii and Pen-F. The E-M5 iii probably won't add much, except a few meaningless MP on the sensor, and better AF. Meaning, there is almost nothing you will be able to do with the E-M5 iii that you can't do right now with an E-M1 Mk i.

The days of revolutionary M43 hardware are pretty much over. So it goes.

Where I live both the E-M1 Mark II and the Pen F now a bit look overpriced for what you get. The competition has caught up, particularly things like the G9. In the meantime the midrange E-M5 Mark II is showing its age and could really do with a sensor bump and PDAF focusing. There’s plenty of scope for a refresh so far as I can see. I’d expect Oly to come out with a strong contender or two before long because otherwise they will start losing customers.

The G9 is $500 more than the E-M1 ii, and $400 more than the Pen-F. The G9 is also designed more for large lenses. I'm not sure they are direct competitors.

I don't see the E-M5 Mk ii "showing its age." The AF is not as good as it should be, but that's been true since the day it came out. Otherwise, it seems like it has more features than a Nikon Z. Again, other than AF, I just don't see any radical changes coming for an E-M5 iii.

The G9 and EM1 II are direct competitors for anyone in M43. They are the flagship cameras of the range. And where I live, Panny so far have been the more aggressive with tasty discounts/sales (though time limited as they always are).

”The AF is not as good as it should be” (EM1.2) is a lost sale right there, at this level in the market and now that we are rushing towards 2019. Market standards are very, very high these days as they should be if customers are being asked to part with $$$.

In the same way, offering 2012-era 16 mpx and no pdaf on a midrange item (EM5.2) is a lost sale by now too. It’s just not competitive. Fuji, Canon or whoever will happily take the biz instead.

It’s not a question of expecting radical change from any new model, usually a once-a-decade event, otherwise fantasy and hype. However, all the camera companies are in business to sell new product - or they go out of business. It”s up to Olympus not us to produce good new cameras with good reasons to upgrade or buy them from scratch. Otherwise, yes, Oly will start to lose sales as people drift away. That’s not a good road to start down. The risk is being left with a shrinking band of die-hard users and only few new ones coming in. After that you end up like poor Pentax. No thanks.

I’d guess that Oly will square this either by jumping to FF or by staying on M43 with a view to exiting the biz over the next few years. There’s no future in offering uncompetitive products at fancy prices.

Absolutely spot on!

When I got my E-M1.1 (still using it) in 2013, the competition in the mirrorless world was completely different. Fuji had some decent cameras out, but no IBIS, and their funky X-Trans files didn't work (and still don't work) with my software of choice (DxO). Panasonic didn't have IBIS. Sony had just entered the fray with what I'd politely call decidedly first-gen products (A7/A7R) - and they too lacked IBIS. The E-M1 was the most rugged and responsive camera in its price class, it came with one of the greatest standard zooms money could buy, it had best-in-class stabilization and was just plain awesome. Now, though? Everyone else has caught up! I still like M43, but honestly, I'm pretty excited to see Panasonic's announcement on Tuesday. Olympus haven't offered up anything remotely exciting since 2013 and they have to get their ducks in a row NOW. Everything that distinguished them back then can now be had from other manufacturers as well, with better IQ, DR and noise performance to boot!

Perceptual Megapixels. A good sensor with a poor lens = bad results.

https://petapixel.com/2012/12/17/perceptual-megapixel-mtf-charts-boiled-down-to-a-single-number/

rsmithgi wrote:

Common advice to people looking to acquire camera equipment is to focus on the glass. Olympus seems to be taking that advice.