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Canon EOS M6 and M3 - Electronical and Mechanical Shutter Syncronization Problem

Started Sep 16, 2018 | Discussions
Praefos
Praefos Regular Member • Posts: 234
Canon EOS M6 and M3 - Electronical and Mechanical Shutter Syncronization Problem

Hello Together,

For about one to two month now I discovered a problem with my Canon EOS M6. This Problem only occurs with manual lenses, as far as I can tell. I was even able to confirm this Problem with my M3, so please don't tell me, that my mechanical shutter is worn out and I should send in my cameras.

Preconditions:

- Canon EOS M3 and M6 (wasn't able to check it with other EOS M models)

- Manual Lens! --> In my case a Samyang 35 T1.3

- High Shutter Speeds --> starting around 1/500 up to 1/4000

Observed problem:

Darkening of the image from the top edge until the middle of the image. It is more prominent with 1/4000 and fades away with slower shutter speeds. Links for images are at the bottom!

It's indifferent to ISO, aperture and manual lenses. When you're shooting with a normal camera orientation (landscape mode) this darkening will not be as prominent. It even acts as soft graded ND Filter (it's maybe even a feature???). It's better observable in portrait mode.

Thesis:

The mechanical and the electrical shutter are not in sync, while a full manual lens or even no lens is attached. This means, that the electrical shutter is faster than the mechanical shutter, thus the darkening starts at the top edge. The mechanical shutter rolls from the top edge to the bottom edge of the sensor. Usually the image is upside down at the sensor, therefore the darkening starts instead of the bottom from the top.

My question:

Can anyone confirm this my problem? For a better understand please find attached some images:

Images:

I hope those images below clarify my point. I'm just wondering, if you're experiencing the same behavior.

Images of a fountain with various orientations (only M6 - as RAW):

[1]: http://praefos.de/IMG_4568.CR2
[2]: http://praefos.de/IMG_4569.CR2
[3]: http://praefos.de/IMG_4572.CR2
[4]: http://praefos.de/IMG_4574.CR2

Images from different Cameras:

Canon M3:

with a Canon EF-M 22mm with in-camera corrections turned on: http://praefos.de/M3_EF-M_Canon_22mm_Corrections_F2.8_1-4000-ISO100.JPG
with a Canon EF-M 22mm with in-camera corrections turned off: http://praefos.de/M3_EF-M_Canon_22mm_NoCorrections_F2.8_1-4000-ISO100.JPG
with a Samyang EF-M 21mm with no corrections: http://praefos.de/M3_EF-M_Samyang_21mm_NoCorrections_F2.8_1-4000-ISO100.JPG

Canon M6:

with an Canon EF-M 22mm with in-camera corrections turned on: http://praefos.de/M6_EF-M_Canon_22mm_Corrections_F2.8_1-4000-ISO100.JPG
with an Canon EF-M 22mm with in-camera corrections turned on: http://praefos.de/M6_EF-M_Canon_22mm_NoCorrections_F2.8_1-4000-ISO100.JPG
with an Samyang EF-M 21mm with no corrections: http://praefos.de/M6_EF-M_Samyang_21mm_NoCorrections_F2.8_1-4000-ISO100.JPG

Here's an Zip archive with some comparison shots at different shutter speeds: http://praefos.de/Canon_Issue.zip

 Praefos's gear list:Praefos's gear list
Canon EOS M3 Canon EOS M6 Canon EOS M6 II Canon EOS R5 Canon EF 135mm F2L USM +24 more
Canon EOS M3 Canon EOS M6
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trungtran Senior Member • Posts: 1,747
Re: Canon EOS M6 and M3 - Electronical and Mechanical Shutter Syncronization Problem
1

Maybe i'm blind, but i can't tell from looking at those images. Can you show some other samples.

I have both those cameras so maybe i try it myself tomorrow when there is light.

 trungtran's gear list:trungtran's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M10 Sony a7 II Canon EOS M6
Adielle
Adielle Senior Member • Posts: 1,754
Definitely a severe problem.

Definitely with the Samyang lens, there is a really severe problem at 1/4000, which decreases with longer exposure as you said. Nothing at all with the 22mm f2 lens.

Have you checked that it's the same with other lenses? Because maybe it's some specific weird incompatibility.

Praefos
OP Praefos Regular Member • Posts: 234
Re: Canon EOS M6 and M3 - Electronical and Mechanical Shutter Syncronization Problem

Previously I posted links to CR2 Raws. Here are the links to those images as JPG versions straight out of camera:

http://praefos.de/IMG_4568.JPG

http://praefos.de/IMG_4569.JPG

http://praefos.de/IMG_4572.JPG

http://praefos.de/IMG_4574.JPG

I hope this helps!

 Praefos's gear list:Praefos's gear list
Canon EOS M3 Canon EOS M6 Canon EOS M6 II Canon EOS R5 Canon EF 135mm F2L USM +24 more
Praefos
OP Praefos Regular Member • Posts: 234
Re: Definitely a severe problem.

I was even able to get this issue with no lens attached at all! Here's a photo with no lens attached to my Canon EOS M6 at 1/4000 and ISO 6400:

http://praefos.de/M6-No_Lens._1-4000-ISO6400.JPG

I saw some PK-EF adapters online, which are equipped with an AF-Confirm chip. My question is: Will this issue persit, if you use an EF-EF-M Adapter with an AF-Confirm chip?

Previously I posted links to CR2 Raws. Here are the links to the JPG versions straight out of camera:

http://praefos.de/IMG_4568.JPG

http://praefos.de/IMG_4569.JPG

http://praefos.de/IMG_4572.JPG

http://praefos.de/IMG_4574.JPG

Because I'm going to Photokina in Cologne, I'll try the Canon EOS R myself. It might have the same issue as well. Therefore, I'll bring Samyang 135mm for EF in order to verify my thesis as well.

 Praefos's gear list:Praefos's gear list
Canon EOS M3 Canon EOS M6 Canon EOS M6 II Canon EOS R5 Canon EF 135mm F2L USM +24 more
Praefos
OP Praefos Regular Member • Posts: 234
Re: Definitely a severe problem.

I just wanted to clarify my observation:

It doesn't have anything to do with a Samyang lens. Those Samyang lenses are really great. I have a Soligor and also a 7Artisans 35mm lens. I could pull some more pictures from those, but it wouldn't change anything, because those lenses are fully manual, don't have any electronics and are only passing the light to the sensor.

Even the image in the view finder looks greats, just before I take a shoot. Also images taken with Canon lenses are looking totally normal. So the electronic and mechanical shutter are working fine. The problem is also not restricted to one camera model, because it occurs with the Canon EOS M3.

The problem solely leis by Canon and points to one source, the firmware. In my opinion its a synchronization problem between the electrical and mechanical shutter. It should even be fixable and quite cheap. Everyone could benefit from this fix.

I'm guessing this problem persists in the whole Canon EOS M Series and might be in the new Canon EOS R Series as well.

 Praefos's gear list:Praefos's gear list
Canon EOS M3 Canon EOS M6 Canon EOS M6 II Canon EOS R5 Canon EF 135mm F2L USM +24 more
Helen
Helen Veteran Member • Posts: 7,606
Re: Definitely a severe problem.
2

Praefos wrote:

I just wanted to clarify my observation:

It doesn't have anything to do with a Samyang lens. Those Samyang lenses are really great. I have a Soligor and also a 7Artisans 35mm lens. I could pull some more pictures from those, but it wouldn't change anything, because those lenses are fully manual, don't have any electronics and are only passing the light to the sensor.

Even the image in the view finder looks greats, just before I take a shoot. Also images taken with Canon lenses are looking totally normal. So the electronic and mechanical shutter are working fine. The problem is also not restricted to one camera model, because it occurs with the Canon EOS M3.

The problem solely leis by Canon and points to one source, the firmware. In my opinion its a synchronization problem between the electrical and mechanical shutter. It should even be fixable and quite cheap. Everyone could benefit from this fix.

I'm guessing this problem persists in the whole Canon EOS M Series and might be in the new Canon EOS R Series as well.

Well, I do suspect it is connected with the electronic first curtain shutter (EFCS) function as you suggest.  Canon EOS M Series cameras always operate in EFCS mode and this is known to be vulnerable - in other brands too - to this type of shading at higher shutter speeds, usually with non-native lenses and particularly at larger apertures too.  Sony for example recommend switching to full mechanical shutter with such lenses, but that's not an option available with EOS M system cameras.  Interestingly, Panasonic and Fuji models with EFCS have the top shutter speed limited to 1/2000 in EFCS mode, and Olympus swap automatically to full mechanical at speeds faster than 1/320.

Praefos
OP Praefos Regular Member • Posts: 234
Re: Definitely a severe problem.

I think so too, but it only depends on two things:

- Shutter Speed (above 1/2000) and

- a lens, which has no electronic connections (or even no lens).

I was also able to recreate this with my Samyang 35mm with f8, ISO 25600 and 1/4000 of a second.

 Praefos's gear list:Praefos's gear list
Canon EOS M3 Canon EOS M6 Canon EOS M6 II Canon EOS R5 Canon EF 135mm F2L USM +24 more
Praefos
OP Praefos Regular Member • Posts: 234
Re: Canon EOS M6 and M3 - Electronical and Mechanical Shutter Syncronization Problem

Hallo everyone,

I attended the Photokina 2018 and tested my theory with the new EOS R. Unfortunatley, it has the same Problems with this curtain beginning at a shutter speed of 1/2000.

Therefore, my conclusion is, that every mirror less camera (Canon EOS M, M2, M3, M5, M6, M10, M50 and M100 as well as the EOS R) has this issue with manual lenses.

My guess is, that this issue is also carrying on to the DSLR cameras as well.

 Praefos's gear list:Praefos's gear list
Canon EOS M3 Canon EOS M6 Canon EOS M6 II Canon EOS R5 Canon EF 135mm F2L USM +24 more
Praefos
OP Praefos Regular Member • Posts: 234
Re: Canon EOS M6 and M3 - Electronical and Mechanical Shutter Syncronization Problem

After a vacation and sorting through my photos I discovered this phenomena with pictures taken with the Viltrox EF-EOS M2 adapter. Here is a shot:

Shot with a Canon M6 + Viltrox EF-EOS M2 adapter + EF 100mm F/2.8 IS L

By using this adapter the Canon M6 loses the precise shutter synchronization and produces this dark curtain again with a shutter speed of 1/4000.

Here is a similar photo with the EF-M 32mm at F/1.4 with 1/4000 without any sign of this dark curtaining.

Shot with a Canon M6 + EF-M 32mm F/1.4

As you can see, there is no problem with the camera synchronization in general or my mechanical shutter, but it might occur with third party lenses and for sure for manual lenses, as shown above.

 Praefos's gear list:Praefos's gear list
Canon EOS M3 Canon EOS M6 Canon EOS M6 II Canon EOS R5 Canon EF 135mm F2L USM +24 more
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