Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In

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Thoughts R Us
Thoughts R Us Senior Member • Posts: 2,764
Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In
10

Canon and Nikon have effectively boxed Sony in.  By both going with larger and more technologically advanced mounts for mirrorless, they have left Sony the odd man out  with the small mount.  I bet Panasonic's FF mirrorless also features a larger mount. When all is said and done Sony will be left with the most primitive mount.

Canon will have faster lenses and Sony won't be able to compete in that area.  Canon already flexed its muscle by releasing 2 of those faster lenses with the new R.

Also, whenever Sony releases new models, they will be compared with the superior ergonomics of Canon and Nikon.  Unless Sony does a major redesign, they will look and feel worse.

And anyone going into a camera store to handle the Canon and the Sony, will mostly choose the Canon because it feels so much better and offers the superior user experience.

Sanderman Forum Member • Posts: 76
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In
42

Do you just make this stuff up as you go along or do you have a script? Since I got my A73 I'm reluctant to touch my Canons. Superior ergonomics indeed.

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Dexter75 Senior Member • Posts: 1,547
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In
1

Sony really boxed themselves in with the a7iii. People love it when you throw everything but the kitchen sink into a camera for $2k, but what about going forward? What can Sony possibly do with the a7iv to tempt any a7iii users to buy it? Good luck trying to raise the price on it, they are now stuck with that price point and people willy cry unless the iv has the latest and greatest tech. Not to mention they canibalized sales of their higher models. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

somerandomphotog Regular Member • Posts: 241
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In
12

Dexter75 wrote:

Sony really boxed themselves in with the a7iii. People love it when you throw everything but the kitchen sink into a camera for $2k, but what about going forward? What can Sony possibly do with the a7iv to tempt any a7iii users to buy it? Good luck trying to raise the price on it, they are now stuck with that price point and people willy cry unless the iv has the latest and greatest tech. Not to mention they canibalized sales of their higher models. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Better to cannibalize your own sales then have competitors do it for you.

Anyway, Thom Hogan seems to think that mirrorless full frame will trend down in price, maybe even to $1500 IIRC, so what will really get boxed in will be APS-C and smaller cameras which probably can't get sold for more than $1200 or so if lowest-end full frame is at $1500.

Competition is good for all consumers regardless of brand, so you should be cheering Sony on for being a competitor, same as Pany and Nikon (and technically Leica I guess).

Thoughts R Us
OP Thoughts R Us Senior Member • Posts: 2,764
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In
2

Dexter75 wrote:

Sony really boxed themselves in with the a7iii. People love it when you throw everything but the kitchen sink into a camera for $2k, but what about going forward? What can Sony possibly do with the a7iv to tempt any a7iii users to buy it? Good luck trying to raise the price on it, they are now stuck with that price point and people willy cry unless the iv has the latest and greatest tech. Not to mention they canibalized sales of their higher models. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Yes, that is an interesting perspective.  When it came out I thought the same thing: Sony will not be able to sell many cameras above $2K ever again.  They've trained their users to expect that.

Also, they have no real answer to the Canon or Nikon for the rest of the year, in spite of their hype.  Rumors have it they will release a crop sensor camera, but that will not have the same market clout of a FF.  Rumors also have a new A7siii, but that will be much higher priced and video centric.  So for most customers that will not matter.

Barple Regular Member • Posts: 242
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In
22

Larger diameter mount? Yes. Technologically advanced mount? No. There is nothing technologically advanced about the mount besides a bigger hole.

Both Canon and Nikon's mount will allow faster lenses than Sony, but only if that's relevant to you. Not everyone needs or wants bigger, faster glass, especially at the asking prices. Plenty of people are happy to live with the 2.8 holy trinity and don't forget that Nikon lived a very long live with it's "primitive" F mount.

Yes Sony, ergonomics probably aren't as good as Canon or Nikon's, and that's one of the main reasons why I decided to stay away for now. But I realise that I am not everyone and others are willing to sacrifice a bit of ergonomics for more feature set.

To sum up, Canon hasn't boxed anyone in with it's underwhelming ML offering.  We shall see again with their higher end model or their next gen.

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GrapeJam
GrapeJam Senior Member • Posts: 2,534
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In
13

Barple wrote:

Larger diameter mount? Yes. Technologically advanced mount? No. There is nothing technologically advanced about the mount besides a bigger hole.

Both Canon and Nikon's mount will allow faster lenses than Sony, but only if that's relevant to you. Not everyone needs or wants bigger, faster glass, especially at the asking prices. Plenty of people are happy to live with the 2.8 holy trinity and don't forget that Nikon lived a very long live with it's "primitive" F mount.

Yes Sony, ergonomics probably aren't as good as Canon or Nikon's, and that's one of the main reasons why I decided to stay away for now. But I realise that I am not everyone and others are willing to sacrifice a bit of ergonomics for more feature set.

To sum up, Canon hasn't boxed anyone in with it's underwhelming ML offering. We shall see again with their higher end model or their next gen.

Not to mention that there's already plenty of native and adapted f0.95 and f1.2 glasses for Sony so the point about "bigger mount allowing faster glasses" is kinda moot.

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Thoughts R Us
OP Thoughts R Us Senior Member • Posts: 2,764
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In
1

Barple wrote:

Larger diameter mount? Yes. Technologically advanced mount? No. There is nothing technologically advanced about the mount besides a bigger hole.

Both Canon and Nikon's mount will allow faster lenses than Sony, but only if that's relevant to you. Not everyone needs or wants bigger, faster glass, especially at the asking prices. Plenty of people are happy to live with the 2.8 holy trinity and don't forget that Nikon lived a very long live with it's "primitive" F mount.

Yes Sony, ergonomics probably aren't as good as Canon or Nikon's, and that's one of the main reasons why I decided to stay away for now. But I realise that I am not everyone and others are willing to sacrifice a bit of ergonomics for more feature set.

To sum up, Canon hasn't boxed anyone in with it's underwhelming ML offering. We shall see again with their higher end model or their next gen.

There are tech advantages besides a "bigger hole."

Quoting Thom Hogan:

I believe it is driven by what every camera company can now see they need next: faster mount communications, and perhaps additional mount communications. Bandwidth is not something to ever bet against increasing, and it's happening both internally within the cameras (particularly at the sensor to ISP—DIGIC for Canon—but also in the EVF), but also going to be necessary to keep up externally as well. As sensors work faster, so too will the lens response have to work faster to match that in the future.

-- hide signature --

end quote.

Also that "bigger hole" has advantages beyond faster glass...again, quoting Thom:

The short back flange with a wide throat allows for lens designs that are bending light less and allows for optimization of corner performance.

--end quote

Bottom line: Both Canon and Nikon went very intentionally towards their new lens mounts, incorporating the latest tech to make them future proof.  They did not undertake this lightly, but did so for very good reasons.  This is especially true with Canon, who already had a "bigger hole" for their EF lenses.  Ask anyone and they will tell you that lenses and the mount make the system in the long run.  That is how Canon got to number 1 and it is how they will stay number 1, and in the process relegate Sony to a distant third in FF mirrorless.

Thoughts R Us
OP Thoughts R Us Senior Member • Posts: 2,764
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In
3

GrapeJam wrote:

Barple wrote:

Larger diameter mount? Yes. Technologically advanced mount? No. There is nothing technologically advanced about the mount besides a bigger hole.

Both Canon and Nikon's mount will allow faster lenses than Sony, but only if that's relevant to you. Not everyone needs or wants bigger, faster glass, especially at the asking prices. Plenty of people are happy to live with the 2.8 holy trinity and don't forget that Nikon lived a very long live with it's "primitive" F mount.

Yes Sony, ergonomics probably aren't as good as Canon or Nikon's, and that's one of the main reasons why I decided to stay away for now. But I realise that I am not everyone and others are willing to sacrifice a bit of ergonomics for more feature set.

To sum up, Canon hasn't boxed anyone in with it's underwhelming ML offering. We shall see again with their higher end model or their next gen.

Not to mention that there's already plenty of native and adapted f0.95 and f1.2 glasses for Sony so the point about "bigger mount allowing faster glasses" is kinda moot.

There are no native Sony f0.95 or f1.2 glass; I wonder why?  Any third party lenses for Sony are not that great in quality and some, if not all, are manual focus only.

Sony is boxed in with now the most primitive lens mount in FF mirrorless.  Nice job Sony!

GrapeJam
GrapeJam Senior Member • Posts: 2,534
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In
12

Thoughts R Us wrote:

Barple wrote:

Larger diameter mount? Yes. Technologically advanced mount? No. There is nothing technologically advanced about the mount besides a bigger hole.

Both Canon and Nikon's mount will allow faster lenses than Sony, but only if that's relevant to you. Not everyone needs or wants bigger, faster glass, especially at the asking prices. Plenty of people are happy to live with the 2.8 holy trinity and don't forget that Nikon lived a very long live with it's "primitive" F mount.

Yes Sony, ergonomics probably aren't as good as Canon or Nikon's, and that's one of the main reasons why I decided to stay away for now. But I realise that I am not everyone and others are willing to sacrifice a bit of ergonomics for more feature set.

To sum up, Canon hasn't boxed anyone in with it's underwhelming ML offering. We shall see again with their higher end model or their next gen.

There are tech advantages besides a "bigger hole."

Quoting Thom Hogan:

I believe it is driven by what every camera company can now see they need next: faster mount communications, and perhaps additional mount communications. Bandwidth is not something to ever bet against increasing, and it's happening both internally within the cameras (particularly at the sensor to ISP—DIGIC for Canon—but also in the EVF), but also going to be necessary to keep up externally as well. As sensors work faster, so too will the lens response have to work faster to match that in the future.

Who cares about corner performance on a super fast lens that is used for portrait? You're gonna use it to shoot brickwall?

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GrapeJam
GrapeJam Senior Member • Posts: 2,534
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In
4

Thoughts R Us wrote:

There are no native Sony f0.95 or f1.2 glass; I wonder why? Any third party lenses for Sony are not that great in quality and some, if not all, are manual focus only.

Sony is boxed in with now the most primitive lens mount in FF mirrorless. Nice job Sony!

Because up until now there're holes in Sony lenses line up that need more urgent filling? And what do you define quality? Sharpness? The new RF 50mm f1.2 has very nervous bokeh while the bokeh on fast lenses are buttery smooth.

And let's see how many 50mm f1.2 and 28/70 f2 (which Sony has a patent for) will sell that price

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OP Thoughts R Us Senior Member • Posts: 2,764
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In

GrapeJam wrote:

Thoughts R Us wrote:

There are no native Sony f0.95 or f1.2 glass; I wonder why? Any third party lenses for Sony are not that great in quality and some, if not all, are manual focus only.

Sony is boxed in with now the most primitive lens mount in FF mirrorless. Nice job Sony!

Because up until now there're holes in Sony lenses line up that need more urgent filling?

I'l grant you there are holes in Sony's lens lineup but is not the reason why they don't have this faster glass.  A company like Sony almost for sure would have come out with some faster glass if they could have, if only to establish the brand and make a statement.  They will never release an f1.2, much less an f0.95, for their FE mount, because they know the optical performance would be severely compromised.

As time goes by the smaller lens mount will prove to be a very weak link in the Sony system.  If they decide to stick around they will have to bite the bullet and do exactly what Canon and Nikon just did: invent a new, larger, more modern lens mount.  But I don't know that they will ever get there, because with Canon and Nikon, and soon Panasonic, playing in the same FF mirrorless sand boxy, they may not have the market share to justify that.  Plus, Sony itself seems headed more towards services, content, and games.

GrapeJam
GrapeJam Senior Member • Posts: 2,534
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In
2

Thoughts R Us wrote:

GrapeJam wrote:

Thoughts R Us wrote:

There are no native Sony f0.95 or f1.2 glass; I wonder why? Any third party lenses for Sony are not that great in quality and some, if not all, are manual focus only.

Sony is boxed in with now the most primitive lens mount in FF mirrorless. Nice job Sony!

Because up until now there're holes in Sony lenses line up that need more urgent filling?

I'l grant you there are holes in Sony's lens lineup but is not the reason why they don't have this faster glass. A company like Sony almost for sure would have come out with some faster glass if they could have, if only to establish the brand and make a statement. They will never release an f1.2, much less an f0.95, for their FE mount, because they know the optical performance would be severely compromised.

In what way does this lens have "severely compromised optical performance?"

https://www.dpreview.com/news/7846008912/meyer-optik-unveils-nocturnus-lll-50mm-f0-95-with-new-mechanics-and-leica-m-mount

https://info.meyer-optik-goerlitz.com/nocturnus50_dslr_presale

And why does Sony feel the need to release exotic lenses early when there's already plenty of 3rd party offerings, while there're still holes in the common lens line up that needs filling?

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OP Thoughts R Us Senior Member • Posts: 2,764
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In

GrapeJam wrote:

Thoughts R Us wrote:

GrapeJam wrote:

Thoughts R Us wrote:

There are no native Sony f0.95 or f1.2 glass; I wonder why? Any third party lenses for Sony are not that great in quality and some, if not all, are manual focus only.

Sony is boxed in with now the most primitive lens mount in FF mirrorless. Nice job Sony!

Because up until now there're holes in Sony lenses line up that need more urgent filling?

I'l grant you there are holes in Sony's lens lineup but is not the reason why they don't have this faster glass. A company like Sony almost for sure would have come out with some faster glass if they could have, if only to establish the brand and make a statement. They will never release an f1.2, much less an f0.95, for their FE mount, because they know the optical performance would be severely compromised.

In what way does this lens have "severely compromised optical performance?"

https://www.dpreview.com/news/7846008912/meyer-optik-unveils-nocturnus-lll-50mm-f0-95-with-new-mechanics-and-leica-m-mount

https://info.meyer-optik-goerlitz.com/nocturnus50_dslr_presale

And why does Sony feel the need to release exotic lenses early when there's already plenty of 3rd party offerings, while there're still holes in the common lens line up that needs filling?

Manual Focus only...

Sony usually likes to make a splash for marketing purposes. If they could come out with a statement lens with faster aperture, they would.

The fact is that Canon has already bested Sony in the one area where it matters most: lens mount. Just like they won the sir and dslr wars with their EOS mount with EF lenses.

GrapeJam
GrapeJam Senior Member • Posts: 2,534
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In
3

Thoughts R Us wrote:

GrapeJam wrote:

Manual Focus only...

Sony usually likes to make a splash for marketing purposes. If they could come out with a statement lens with faster aperture, they would.

Tell me which f0.95 lens that has autofocus?

Even Nikon's upcoming 58mm f0.95 costing 6k and is still manual focus only. And the Z mount has an even bigger throat diameter and shorter flange distance than the R mount.

You can keep repeating rivel from other Sony haters, but real world evidences say otherwise

The facts are:

  1. f0.95 is completely possible on Sony bodies with outstanding optical performance.
  2. Adapted Canon f1.2 lenses work even better on Sony bodies than Canon bodies, with full stabilisation and continous eye AF ;). And thus, no reason to believe that AF f1.2 lenses are impossible on Sony bodies.
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OP Thoughts R Us Senior Member • Posts: 2,764
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In

GrapeJam wrote:

Thoughts R Us wrote:

GrapeJam wrote:

Manual Focus only...

Sony usually likes to make a splash for marketing purposes. If they could come out with a statement lens with faster aperture, they would.

Tell me which f0.95 lens that has autofocus?

Even Nikon's upcoming 58mm f0.95 costing 6k and is still manual focus only. And the Z mount has an even bigger throat diameter and shorter flange distance than the R mount.

I'm not talking about Nikon here but Canon, and Canon's f1.2 primes along with that f2 28-70 zoom.  They are all AF.   Who knows what surprises Canon has up their sleeve in the future with their lenses.

You are right that Nikon's f0.95 is going to be MF; we don't know the price point but 6K wouldn't surprise me, since I'm sure it will be an optical masterwork.

But it's getting way off track of my main point to just narrowly focus on the f0.95 lens.

Also, once again, the new Canon mount has more and faster lens communication points.  That will show an advantage in the future.

You know it is grasping at straws to deny that Canon and Nikon have leap frogged Sony with their newer, larger mounts.  I bet Panasonic does as well.  It's the smart move.  It's what Sony would do if they were starting from scratch.

Also, Panasonic knows how to do video really really well.  Heck, their m4/3 GH5s in some ways compares favorably with the Sony FF models.  Their FF model will challenge Sony at the video end, esp. the Sony a7s series.   Another way that Sony is being boxed in.

GrapeJam
GrapeJam Senior Member • Posts: 2,534
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In
4

Thoughts R Us wrote:

Also, once again, the new Canon mount has more and faster lens communication points. That will show an advantage in the future.

You know it is grasping at straws to deny that Canon and Nikon have leap frogged Sony with their newer, larger mounts. I bet Panasonic does as well. It's the smart move. It's what Sony would do if they were starting from scratch.

Nikon has added more communication points throughout the life of the F mount, what stops Sony from doing the same?

And funnily enough, Canon 50mm f0.95 is also....you guess it....manual focus.

And Sony has a patent for 28 70 f2 AF lens btw.

And funnily enough, all reports so far indicate that the EOS R's AF doesn't keep up even with the worst performing latest Sony FF camera, the A7R3, let alone A7III or A9.

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OP Thoughts R Us Senior Member • Posts: 2,764
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In

GrapeJam wrote:

Thoughts R Us wrote:

Also, once again, the new Canon mount has more and faster lens communication points. That will show an advantage in the future.

You know it is grasping at straws to deny that Canon and Nikon have leap frogged Sony with their newer, larger mounts. I bet Panasonic does as well. It's the smart move. It's what Sony would do if they were starting from scratch.

Nikon has added more communication points throughout the life of the F mount, what stops Sony from doing the same?

And funnily enough, Canon 50mm f0.95 is also....you guess it....manual focus.

And Sony has a patent for 28 70 f2 AF lens btw.

And funnily enough, all reports so far indicate that the EOS R's AF doesn't keep up even with the worst performing latest Sony FF camera, the A7R3, let alone A7III or A9.

You can only adapt an older smaller mount so much. Again there are reasons why Canon and Nikon both chose the same strategy.  Sony will be left behind as time goes by.

As for AF performance, it seems that as some get hands on time with the unit, they report better AF performance than some Youtubers.  But we will see.  This is only the first model from Canon.  Others will follow.

Canon plays the long ball game.  They know what they are doing.  They did the same thing when they came out with the EOS mount and EF lenses.  They first released a camera aimed at the middle of the market.  Then they released other models and the rest is history.  History will repeat itself.

GrapeJam
GrapeJam Senior Member • Posts: 2,534
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In
2

Thoughts R Us wrote:

GrapeJam wrote:

Thoughts R Us wrote:

Also, once again, the new Canon mount has more and faster lens communication points. That will show an advantage in the future.

You know it is grasping at straws to deny that Canon and Nikon have leap frogged Sony with their newer, larger mounts. I bet Panasonic does as well. It's the smart move. It's what Sony would do if they were starting from scratch.

Nikon has added more communication points throughout the life of the F mount, what stops Sony from doing the same?

And funnily enough, Canon 50mm f0.95 is also....you guess it....manual focus.

And Sony has a patent for 28 70 f2 AF lens btw.

And funnily enough, all reports so far indicate that the EOS R's AF doesn't keep up even with the worst performing latest Sony FF camera, the A7R3, let alone A7III or A9.

You can only adapt an older smaller mount so much. Again there are reasons why Canon and Nikon both chose the same strategy. Sony will be left behind as time goes by.

Well the funny thing about physics is that it also affect human. Sure, maybe Canon And Nikon can be a 200mm f.05 lens with their mount, but it's gonna be a so gigantic and completely impractical in use and will just be collecting dust in storage. Sure make for good fanboys w@nking material thought.

Hell, even new Canon 50mm f1.2 is already really stupidly big and heavy and you still want a lens that is even more gigantic than that? Ok.

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Alexsfo Senior Member • Posts: 2,117
Re: Canon (and Nikon) Box Sony In
1

Sony E mount was never designed for full frame lenses. Lenses must be designed around it. Sony is not nearly as good at designing lenses. The GM 24-70 and GM 85 are basically dslr lenses retrofitted for E-mount. Sony is a consumer electronic conglomerate not an optical company like Canon or Nikon. When Canon designed RF mount, they were thinking about lenses first and foremost, not the other way around.

It is likely that Sony is not making profit with their Alpha lineup. They may have to find a way to restrict E- mount going forward to prevent third party lenses eating into their sales. Canon has designed by far the most thought out FF mirroless mount and it instantly killed Sony’s dreams of capturing pro market when they saw what kind of lenses Canon is releasing. That’s right, photography is driven by lenses not camera bodies.

Knowing Sony, they won’t be satisfied with being a budget brand; they always strive to be a premium brand. If Sony doesn’t give up on photography, I think there is room for 3 companies to share the market: Canon, Nikon and Sony. This means that all others may start disappearing, especially Pentax, Olympus and even Fuji. I bet Sony would love to sell their sensors to Canon and withdraw from photo market but Canon wants to make their own and they do not sell them to anyone it seems. If I have to guess, I’d say sensor business is far more important to Sony than their camera division.

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