K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras

Started Sep 6, 2018 | Discussions
DougOB
DougOB Senior Member • Posts: 1,107
Re: K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras

Barry Pearson wrote:

DougOB wrote:

.... Pentax already has developed lenses that were not compatible with older cameras, e.g., FAJ lenses, DA lenses on older bodies with no aperture control or many (most?) DA lenses on FF bodies, PLM lenses, etc. When the K-01 was released there was discussion of a lens under development where the optics would stick back into the (non-)mirror box...

The discussion here is about old lenses on new bodies, not new lenses on old bodies.

I was reacting specifically to your comment that Pentax should not release new mirrorless mount lenses that are not compatible with DSLR (old or new) bodies.

One thing they could do (and I am sure many will disagree with me) is not do mirrorless FF, but do mirrorless APS where they could emphasize the compact aspect, and have a clear separation between their FF and APS lines. Maybe the K-3ii replacement will be mirrorless

At the moment, Pentax appears to be concentrating mainly on FF. I agree with that decision. The market appears to be moving towards larger sensors, especially towards FF.

Any new-mount needs to be suitable for FF sensors. Otherwise all the development effort would be leading towards a dead-end.

But I've wondered whether the new APS-C flagship should be Pentax's first new-mount mirrorless camera. After all, that is an early hole that Pentax has to fill. Then FF cameras would follow.

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Barry Pearson
OP Barry Pearson Veteran Member • Posts: 8,723
Speculation: a combined adapter and teleconverter
1

Since this thread is partly about hypothetical Pentax developments, I'll add another idea. I suspect this has already been posed by someone else, but I can't spot it at the moment.

Pentax needs to release an adapter at the same time as a new-mount mirrorless camera. And the main adapter needs to be fully functional, but without glass.

Consider an extra item: a new-mount combined adapter and teleconverter.

That wouldn't be any use as a teleconverter for new-mount lenses. But I don't believe Pentax should bother developing the sort of new-mount lenses for which teleconverters are applicable. Teleconverters tend to most useful for longer lenses. And those should be K-mount lenses, suitable for SLRs as well as new-mount cameras.

A combined adapter and FF teleconverter might be about 25mm front to back, whereas a separate FF teleconverter attached to an adapter might total 45mm front to back. The combined item would be lighter and cheaper.

Just a thought!

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asahi man Contributing Member • Posts: 988
Re: K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras
1

New Pentax Mount???

What is it for? ?

That's funny 

K is the key

Best regards

Mark Ransom
Mark Ransom Veteran Member • Posts: 5,745
Re: K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras
1

DougOB wrote:

Barry Pearson wrote:

The discussion here is about old lenses on new bodies, not new lenses on old bodies.

I was reacting specifically to your comment that Pentax should not release new mirrorless mount lenses that are not compatible with DSLR (old or new) bodies.

All the cases where Pentax made new lenses that weren't compatible with old bodies were cases where they didn't make any more of the old cameras. Our hope is that they still intend to make DSLRs even if they do a mirrorless.

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DS21 Senior Member • Posts: 2,416
Re: K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras
2

asahi man wrote:

New Pentax Mount???

What is it for? ?

That's funny

K is the key

Best regards

Keep going at this rate of product releases, and pretty soon there will be like:

"What K-mount?  What is that?  Who uses that???  Pentax still makes cameras?"

To be fair, I hear it more and more even now, and that's funny, isn't it?

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Barry Pearson
OP Barry Pearson Veteran Member • Posts: 8,723
Re: K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras

DougOB wrote:

Barry Pearson wrote:

DougOB wrote:

.... Pentax already has developed lenses that were not compatible with older cameras, e.g., FAJ lenses, DA lenses on older bodies with no aperture control or many (most?) DA lenses on FF bodies, PLM lenses, etc. When the K-01 was released there was discussion of a lens under development where the optics would stick back into the (non-)mirror box...

The discussion here is about old lenses on new bodies, not new lenses on old bodies.

I was reacting specifically to your comment that Pentax should not release new mirrorless mount lenses that are not compatible with DSLR (old or new) bodies.

Did I say that? I don't think so!

I've certainly said they shouldn't do so unless there are specific benefits from doing so. Such as better image quality from wide-angle lenses, or perhaps a lightweight option for a walkabout Pentax new-mount mirrorless camera and a mid-range zoom:

My new-mount mirrorless walk-around system

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DougOB
DougOB Senior Member • Posts: 1,107
Re: K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras

Barry Pearson wrote:

DougOB wrote:

Barry Pearson wrote:

DougOB wrote:

.... Pentax already has developed lenses that were not compatible with older cameras, e.g., FAJ lenses, DA lenses on older bodies with no aperture control or many (most?) DA lenses on FF bodies, PLM lenses, etc. When the K-01 was released there was discussion of a lens under development where the optics would stick back into the (non-)mirror box...

The discussion here is about old lenses on new bodies, not new lenses on old bodies.

I was reacting specifically to your comment that Pentax should not release new mirrorless mount lenses that are not compatible with DSLR (old or new) bodies.

Did I say that? I don't think so!

I've certainly said they shouldn't do so unless there are specific benefits from doing so. Such as better image quality from wide-angle lenses, or perhaps a lightweight option for a walkabout Pentax new-mount mirrorless camera and a mid-range zoom:

My new-mount mirrorless walk-around system

My apologies, it was my (mis-)interpretation of "I have said elsewhere that if Pentax develops a new mount, they should only develop new lenses for it if there is a clear benefit in doing so. If a new lens can equally work with K-mount SLRs or the new mount, it should be developed as a K-mount lenses."

For me the lightweight (and slightly smaller size) option you just mentioned justifies a number of new lenses.  If I stubbornly stick to APS (hey, I'm allowed ;-)) then what is the point of a DA40 Ltd "pancake" lens if you need to add an adapter!

Doug

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 10,163
Re: K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras

Roland Karlsson wrote:

DougOB wrote:

Pentax already has developed lenses that were not compatible with older cameras,

Ah - but what we are talking about is forward compatibility for Pentax lenses, i.e. that a camera shall be able to use (almost) all older lenses.

Or backward compatibility if we take the camera as a reference.

Forward compatibility for cameras has never been a plan for Pentax, and it is almost impossible to achieve.

Not impossible. It only means no performance tweaks (unchanged protocols), no electronic aperture control, no in-lens AF motors, aperture rings on all lenses - depending on how far do you want to go. It only means making FA lenses instead of D FA*s.

Basically, it only means Pentax stays in the stone age

(And I guess I just proved your point)

Alex

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 10,163
Re: K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras

Barry Pearson wrote:

But I've wondered whether the new APS-C flagship should be Pentax's first new-mount mirrorless camera. After all, that is an early hole that Pentax has to fill. Then FF cameras would follow.

That's a too big responsibility to be given to a mirrorless, and too much of a risk. It's not actually solving the issue of the "missing" K-3's replacement - it introduces a new one, that is having your user base migrating to a new platform.

I understand why you want a mirrorless; however, I'd say most of us / their user base still prefer DSLRs.

So they'd have to introduce mirrorless without ignoring/phasing out DSLRs.

Alex

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Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,279
Re: K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Roland Karlsson wrote:

DougOB wrote:

Pentax already has developed lenses that were not compatible with older cameras,

Ah - but what we are talking about is forward compatibility for Pentax lenses, i.e. that a camera shall be able to use (almost) all older lenses.

Or backward compatibility if we take the camera as a reference.

Ah ... but it is much easier to plan for forward compatibility Sort of. And I like to talk about forward compatibility because it is a harder thing to get right just with intuition. You need to think.

Forward compatibility for cameras has never been a plan for Pentax, and it is almost impossible to achieve.

Not impossible. It only means no performance tweaks (unchanged protocols), no electronic aperture control, no in-lens AF motors, aperture rings on all lenses - depending on how far do you want to go. It only means making FA lenses instead of D FA*s.

Basically, it only means Pentax stays in the stone age

(And I guess I just proved your point)

ha ha ... you just had to try to shoot down my argument

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/Roland
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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 10,163
Re: K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras
1

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Roland Karlsson wrote:

DougOB wrote:

Pentax already has developed lenses that were not compatible with older cameras,

Ah - but what we are talking about is forward compatibility for Pentax lenses, i.e. that a camera shall be able to use (almost) all older lenses.

Or backward compatibility if we take the camera as a reference.

Ah ... but it is much easier to plan for forward compatibility Sort of. And I like to talk about forward compatibility because it is a harder thing to get right just with intuition. You need to think.

I'm not sure I get this. Are you talking about building the lenses so they'll be usable with future cameras? (as opposed to building cameras so they'll be usable with older lenses).

I don't expect any other evolution of the K-mount, after KAF4.

Forward compatibility for cameras has never been a plan for Pentax, and it is almost impossible to achieve.

Not impossible. It only means no performance tweaks (unchanged protocols), no electronic aperture control, no in-lens AF motors, aperture rings on all lenses - depending on how far do you want to go. It only means making FA lenses instead of D FA*s.

Basically, it only means Pentax stays in the stone age

(And I guess I just proved your point)

ha ha ... you just had to try to shoot down my argument

Wait, what? Wasn't I agreeing with, and reinforcing your point?

Alex

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Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,279
Re: K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras

Alex Sarbu wrote:

I'm not sure I get this. Are you talking about building the lenses so they'll be usable with future cameras? (as opposed to building cameras so they'll be usable with older lenses).

It is not really important, but there are two ways of thinking.

1. Short sighted - you plan what lenses and cameras to do in the nearest span and then you plan for eventual backward compatibility for coming products. In this case you plan for how to make cameras so they are backward compatible with existing lenses, or not.

2. Long term - you plan your long term strategy and then you plan how to do the lenses now so they are going to be forward compatible with any kind of coming cameras you can imagine.

So, you do backward compatibility short term plans and forward compatibility long term plans.

I don't expect any other evolution of the K-mount, after KAF4.

It is to early to have an opinion on that yet IMHO.

Not impossible. It only means no performance tweaks (unchanged protocols), no electronic aperture control, no in-lens AF motors, aperture rings on all lenses - depending on how far do you want to go. It only means making FA lenses instead of D FA*s.

Basically, it only means Pentax stays in the stone age

(And I guess I just proved your point)

ha ha ... you just had to try to shoot down my argument

Wait, what? Wasn't I agreeing with, and reinforcing your point?

Yes, you failed

BTW - don't take that too serious. It was a try at joking.

BTW BTW - I am sitting up late to wait for the Swedish election results - so I am a bit more whimsical than usual.

It does not look good so far. As expected our foreign-unfriendly party gets nearly 20%. Bad news and bad times.

-- hide signature --

/Roland
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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 10,163
Re: K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

I'm not sure I get this. Are you talking about building the lenses so they'll be usable with future cameras? (as opposed to building cameras so they'll be usable with older lenses).

It is not really important, but there are two ways of thinking.

1. Short sighted - you plan what lenses and cameras to do in the nearest span and then you plan for eventual backward compatibility for coming products. In this case you plan for how to make cameras so they are backward compatible with existing lenses, or not.

2. Long term - you plan your long term strategy and then you plan how to do the lenses now so they are going to be forward compatible with any kind of coming cameras you can imagine.

So, you do backward compatibility short term plans and forward compatibility long term plans.

Thanks.

I'm thinking backward compatibility as a 'must' rather than short sighted, but it does indeed becomes short sighted if it's not accompanied by forward compatibility planning.

Fortunately, Pentax builds their lenses for the future.

I don't expect any other evolution of the K-mount, after KAF4.

It is to early to have an opinion on that yet IMHO.

Maybe. But I don't see what more would be needed - talking about general features, not details (e.g. in-lens motor instead of - say - dual PLM motors).

Not impossible. It only means no performance tweaks (unchanged protocols), no electronic aperture control, no in-lens AF motors, aperture rings on all lenses - depending on how far do you want to go. It only means making FA lenses instead of D FA*s.

Basically, it only means Pentax stays in the stone age

(And I guess I just proved your point)

ha ha ... you just had to try to shoot down my argument

Wait, what? Wasn't I agreeing with, and reinforcing your point?

Yes, you failed

BTW - don't take that too serious. It was a try at joking.

BTW BTW - I am sitting up late to wait for the Swedish election results - so I am a bit more whimsical than usual.

It does not look good so far. As expected our foreign-unfriendly party gets nearly 20%. Bad news and bad times.

Oh... at least you don't have our politicians - if not stopped, we'll be heading towards something worse than the communism.

Alex

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Roland Karlsson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,279
Re: K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Roland Karlsson wrote:

BTW BTW - I am sitting up late to wait for the Swedish election results - so I am a bit more whimsical than usual.

It does not look good so far. As expected our foreign-unfriendly party gets nearly 20%. Bad news and bad times.

Oh... at least you don't have our politicians - if not stopped, we'll be heading towards something worse than the communism.

Maybe. But, SD (Sverigedemokraterna) has Fascist and Nazi roots. And in the southern parts of Sweden they in many places have more than 50%, and overall they get nearly 20%. People do not understand. They vote for SD for two reasons - fear of all refugee immigrants and because of politician contempt. And it is almost countryside only. In big cities they do only get 5% or so. And it is nearly 100% big cities that gets the refugees. It is so strange. Fear for something that do not really hit them is more important than the reality. Immigrant problems are found in suburbs to big cities, not in the countryside.

And apart from being a scary party, they also make the left and right blocks too small. So neither can form a majority government. Which complicates things a lot.

There will be a hard time forming a new government.

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Mark Ransom
Mark Ransom Veteran Member • Posts: 5,745
Re: K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Not impossible. It only means no performance tweaks (unchanged protocols), no electronic aperture control, no in-lens AF motors, aperture rings on all lenses - depending on how far do you want to go. It only means making FA lenses instead of D FA*s.

Basically, it only means Pentax stays in the stone age

(And I guess I just proved your point)

ha ha ... you just had to try to shoot down my argument

Wait, what? Wasn't I agreeing with, and reinforcing your point?

I guess you, like me, have a blindness for emoticons. Even without it I thought it was obvious he was just kidding.

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Barry Pearson
OP Barry Pearson Veteran Member • Posts: 8,723
Re: K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras

asahi man wrote:

New Pentax Mount???

What is it for? ?

That's funny

K is the key

I have a large investment in K-mount equipment .

I have no interest in interchangeable-lens cameras that can't use my K-mount lenses.

A (hypothetical) new-mount camera with a good K-mount adapter attached is equivalent to a K-mount camera.

I deliberately called this thread "K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras" to emphasise this.

I want to gather relevant facts, analyse the consequences, and record them as a resource that I and others could use in future. I've bookmarked this thread for that purpose.

The new Canon and Nikon cameras will accelerate the change in climate and market for mirrorless interchangeable lens cameras. Their own emphasis on their adapters is significant.

I want Ricoh management to continue their decision to develop K-mount equipment. A K-mount adapter for any (hypothetical) new-mount camera would be part of that development.

Decisions in Ricoh made last year may need to be re-visited as a result of the above acceleration. The way Ricoh management think about K-mount development next year may be different from how they thought about it last year.

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 10,163
Re: K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras

Mark Ransom wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Not impossible. It only means no performance tweaks (unchanged protocols), no electronic aperture control, no in-lens AF motors, aperture rings on all lenses - depending on how far do you want to go. It only means making FA lenses instead of D FA*s.

Basically, it only means Pentax stays in the stone age

(And I guess I just proved your point)

ha ha ... you just had to try to shoot down my argument

Wait, what? Wasn't I agreeing with, and reinforcing your point?

I guess you, like me, have a blindness for emoticons. Even without it I thought it was obvious he was just kidding.

Much is lost in the written communication.

Alex

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Heritage Cameras
Heritage Cameras Senior Member • Posts: 1,236
Re: Speculation: a combined adapter and teleconverter

Barry Pearson wrote:

Consider an extra item: a new-mount combined adapter and teleconverter.

That wouldn't be any use as a teleconverter for new-mount lenses. But I don't believe Pentax should bother developing the sort of new-mount lenses for which teleconverters are applicable. Teleconverters tend to most useful for longer lenses. And those should be K-mount lenses, suitable for SLRs as well as new-mount cameras.

A combined adapter and FF teleconverter might be about 25mm front to back, whereas a separate FF teleconverter attached to an adapter might total 45mm front to back. The combined item would be lighter and cheaper.

A tele converter could also allow APS-C lenses to cover full frame...

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Dave, HCL

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Barry Pearson
OP Barry Pearson Veteran Member • Posts: 8,723
Re: K-mount adapters for Pentax new-mount cameras

Alex Sarbu wrote:

.... Fortunately, Pentax builds their lenses for the future.

Although we sometimes disagree with one-another, that statement is something I fully agree with!

My main desire in this whole topic is that new Pentax cameras will support my large investment in high quality K-mount lenses. Both the ones I have now, and those I will buy in future.

And my secondary desire is that Pentax continues to develop and release K-mount lenses, wherever the K-mount is a sensible choice. Whatever (hypothetical) new-mount cameras are released, I hope that the lenses on the current roadmap are released with K-mount.

Otherwise, lots of Pentax users will be alienated. I too have an investment in K-mount SLRs, of course!

(Although I can see that there is an argument that the "Large Aperture Wide-Angle Single-Focus" star-lens might have better image quality on a short-registration camera).

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Barry Pearson
OP Barry Pearson Veteran Member • Posts: 8,723
Re: Speculation: a combined adapter and teleconverter

Heritage Cameras wrote:

Barry Pearson wrote:

Consider an extra item: a new-mount combined adapter and teleconverter.

That wouldn't be any use as a teleconverter for new-mount lenses. But I don't believe Pentax should bother developing the sort of new-mount lenses for which teleconverters are applicable. Teleconverters tend to most useful for longer lenses. And those should be K-mount lenses, suitable for SLRs as well as new-mount cameras.

A combined adapter and FF teleconverter might be about 25mm front to back, whereas a separate FF teleconverter attached to an adapter might total 45mm front to back. The combined item would be lighter and cheaper.

A tele converter could also allow APS-C lenses to cover full frame...

Yes. Good point!

My experience with the current Pentax DA 1.4x Rear Converter is that it is typically more than an "ASP-C teleconverter", but less than an "FF teleconverter".

It typically does enable my APS-C lenses to cover more of an FF frame, but often not all of it. A true FF teleconverter should do a much better job.

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