E- vs L- vs RF- vs Z-mount

Started Sep 1, 2018 | Discussions
9ck
9ck Senior Member • Posts: 1,077
E- vs L- vs RF- vs Z-mount
11

A quick sketch of the mirrorless mount  geometry / design from four major players (some based on rumors). How significant is this difference when it comes down to lens design (I guess we all can agree that 4mm in body thickness is irrelevant).

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9ck
OP 9ck Senior Member • Posts: 1,077
Re: E- vs L- vs RF- vs Z-mount

9ck wrote:

A quick sketch of the mirrorless mount geometry / design from four major players (some based on rumors). How significant is this difference when it comes down to lens design (I guess we all can agree that 4mm in body thickness is irrelevant).

Nikon has done something significant with their new Z-mount in comparison to their F-mount, but I have no grasp as to how significant it might be in comparison to other MILCs offerings.  Hope you'd like to debate.

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beatboxa Senior Member • Posts: 6,657
Re: E- vs L- vs RF- vs Z-mount

9ck wrote:

A quick sketch of the mirrorless mount geometry / design from four major players (some based on rumors). How significant is this difference when it comes down to lens design (I guess we all can agree that 4mm in body thickness is irrelevant).

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60695647

JimKasson
JimKasson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,177
Diagonal?
4

9ck wrote:

A quick sketch of the mirrorless mount geometry / design from four major players (some based on rumors). How significant is this difference when it comes down to lens design (I guess we all can agree that 4mm in body thickness is irrelevant).

I like your diagram. Would it be easy for you to do a version with the baseline the diagonal of the format, rather than the width in landscape orientation? I think that's the limiting case.

Jim

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mapgraphs
mapgraphs Senior Member • Posts: 1,401
Re: E- vs L- vs RF- vs Z-mount

9ck wrote:

A quick sketch of the mirrorless mount geometry / design from four major players (some based on rumors). How significant is this difference when it comes down to lens design (I guess we all can agree that 4mm in body thickness is irrelevant).

I wonder if the width of the Z mount might allow for the design of more telecentric lenses... Especially fast wides?

panos_m Senior Member • Posts: 1,551
Re: E- vs L- vs RF- vs Z-mount

9ck wrote:

A quick sketch of the mirrorless mount geometry / design from four major players (some based on rumors). How significant is this difference when it comes down to lens design (I guess we all can agree that 4mm in body thickness is irrelevant).

Nikons' is the most extreme. Good or bad I don't know. But the most important thing is that this is it for all the players! For the future, decades maybe , they will have to work around these specifications.

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Panagiotis

9ck
OP 9ck Senior Member • Posts: 1,077
Re: Diagonal?
8

Hi Jim!
Here you go. I've made the sketch for both width, height and diagonal measurements.

Width = 36mm

Height = 24mm

Diagonal = 43,3mm

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9ck
OP 9ck Senior Member • Posts: 1,077
Re: E- vs L- vs RF- vs Z-mount
1

Thank you beatboxa! I'll have a look at this...

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JimKasson
JimKasson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,177
Re: Diagonal?
5

9ck wrote:

Hi Jim!
Here you go. I've made the sketch for both width, height and diagonal measurements.

Width = 36mm

Height = 24mm

Diagonal = 43,3mm

That's great!

I think that shows the limitations of the E and L mounts. The exit pupil can't get much bigger than the format diagonal unless it's a long way from the sensor.

Jim

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beatboxa Senior Member • Posts: 6,657
Re: Diagonal?
1

JimKasson wrote:

9ck wrote:

Hi Jim!
Here you go. I've made the sketch for both width, height and diagonal measurements.

Width = 36mm

Height = 24mm

Diagonal = 43,3mm

That's great!

I think that shows the limitations of the E and L mounts. The exit pupil can't get much bigger than the format diagonal unless it's a long way from the sensor.

Jim

Just one more item of consideration:  IBIS.

To support IBIS well, the lens should ideally cover an image circle larger than the diagonal of the sensor.

9ck
OP 9ck Senior Member • Posts: 1,077
Re: Diagonal?

How much space for IBIS would you like :-)?

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JimKasson
JimKasson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,177
Re: Diagonal?

beatboxa wrote:

Just one more item of consideration: IBIS.

To support IBIS well, the lens should ideally cover an image circle larger than the diagonal of the sensor.

Good point. Maybe we should look at a 45 mm baseline...

Jim

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nuke12 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,432
Re: E- vs L- vs RF- vs Z-mount

9ck wrote:

A quick sketch of the mirrorless mount geometry / design from four major players (some based on rumors). How significant is this difference when it comes down to lens design (I guess we all can agree that 4mm in body thickness is irrelevant).

I'm not sure that diagram is correct? It's using 46.1 for the Sony and 55 for the Nikon. I believe the Sony is using the throat diameter but the Nikon is using the thread diameter.

I think this might be more correct?

I believe the above diagram comes from here.

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/01/11/nikons-upcoming-mirrorless-camera-rumored-to-have-a-new-z-mount-with-16mm-flange-focal-distance.aspx/

What's right?

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9ck
OP 9ck Senior Member • Posts: 1,077
Re: Diagonal? + 1mm for IBIS
2

With an extra 1mm in both height and width for IBIS the diagonal ends up at 44,7mm.

Diagonal incl. 1mm for IBIS = 44,7mm

PS: I've made a small mistake in the sketch above. Only consequence is that the angel for the RF-mount should be 103.2 degrees. Everything else should be correct as is.

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beatboxa Senior Member • Posts: 6,657
Re: Diagonal?

9ck wrote:

How much space for IBIS would you like :-)?

Good question.  Don't know.  This looks like 25-50% larger:

While I've seen others that appear as low as 5%.

Interestingly, 25% larger = 54mm.

JimKasson
JimKasson Forum Pro • Posts: 28,177
Re: Diagonal?

beatboxa wrote:

9ck wrote:

How much space for IBIS would you like :-)?

Good question. Don't know. This looks like 25-50% larger:

While I've seen others that appear as low as 5%.

Interestingly, 25% larger = 54mm.

The way that I use IBIS, the images that I care about sharpness in the corners are exposed with minimal camera movement. I'm assuming that OSS is doing the heavy lifting with long lenses. But I don't really know the position of the sensor when the shutter goes off.

I expect that there's a greater IBIS range for video since the photographer is moving the camera deliberately while the (electronic) shutter is firing.

Jim

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9ck
OP 9ck Senior Member • Posts: 1,077
Re: E- vs L- vs RF- vs Z-mount
1

nuke12 wrote:

9ck wrote:

A quick sketch of the mirrorless mount geometry / design from four major players (some based on rumors). How significant is this difference when it comes down to lens design (I guess we all can agree that 4mm in body thickness is irrelevant).

I'm not sure that diagram is correct? It's using 46.1 for the Sony and 55 for the Nikon. I believe the Sony is using the throat diameter but the Nikon is using the thread diameter.

I think this might be more correct?

I believe the above diagram comes from here.

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/01/11/nikons-upcoming-mirrorless-camera-rumored-to-have-a-new-z-mount-with-16mm-flange-focal-distance.aspx/

What's right?

My drawing might be off but that rumor is from January and stating an external diameter of the Z-mount to be 49mm. I don't think it's correct.

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Kind regards 9ck

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nuke12 Veteran Member • Posts: 3,432
Re: E- vs L- vs RF- vs Z-mount

9ck wrote:

nuke12 wrote:

9ck wrote:

A quick sketch of the mirrorless mount geometry / design from four major players (some based on rumors). How significant is this difference when it comes down to lens design (I guess we all can agree that 4mm in body thickness is irrelevant).

I'm not sure that diagram is correct? It's using 46.1 for the Sony and 55 for the Nikon. I believe the Sony is using the throat diameter but the Nikon is using the thread diameter.

I think this might be more correct?

I believe the above diagram comes from here.

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/01/11/nikons-upcoming-mirrorless-camera-rumored-to-have-a-new-z-mount-with-16mm-flange-focal-distance.aspx/

What's right?

My drawing might be off but that rumor is from January and stating an external diameter of the Z-mount to be 49mm. I don't think it's correct.

Then there is this diagram. Notice the F mount is 47mm and the Z mount is 55mm which I believe to be the thread diameter.

The throat of the F mount is 44mm and I'm still inclined to believe the Z is 49mm.

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AG_P New Member • Posts: 1
Re: E- vs L- vs RF- vs Z-mount

Z mount seems huge than the others

Xasan Contributing Member • Posts: 917
Re: Diagonal?

JimKasson wrote:

beatboxa wrote:

Just one more item of consideration: IBIS.

To support IBIS well, the lens should ideally cover an image circle larger than the diagonal of the sensor.

Good point. Maybe we should look at a 45 mm baseline...

Jim

Schneider-Kreuznach on Xenon FF-Prime lenses: "elegantly cover the full 45mm image circle".

https://www.schneideroptics.com/xenonff-prime/

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