rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only

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elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,641
rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only
4

I am showing Jpeg Shooters what the camera can effortlessly do. This is not the place to discuss RAW or external PP, just see what it does, just so you know, done.

As usual, driving, saw opportunity, forgot to check settings, so it was in Expanded Spot Focus Area, centered, and Spot metering area, centered (thus dark, oh well).

Handheld, S mode: 1/800th gave iso 125, so I used it

Uncroppped, shadows lifted, that's it

Extra Jpeg Zooms increase as you lower Image Size to either 10mp or 5mp.

.......................................................

At full 20mp, you get 24-200 OZ, and progressive CIZ 201-400mm (no SZ at 20mp)

24mm OZ

200mm OZ

400mm CIZ max

..........................................

At 10mp Image Size, you get 24-200 OZ; SZ 280mm; progressive CIZ 281-560mm

10mp 24mm OZ

10mp 200mm OZ

10mp SZ 1.4x 280mm

10mp CIZ max 560

...............................................

At 5mp image size you get 24-200 OZ; SZ 2.0x 400mm; progressive CIZ 401-800mm

5mp 24 OZ

5mp 200mm OZ

5mp, SZ 2.0x 400mm

5mp CIZ max 800mm

Like I said, that is a heck of a lot of effortless zoom in your pocket!

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Elliott

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edform
edform Veteran Member • Posts: 6,183
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only

Some pretty tasty clapboard as well.

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Ed Form

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,641
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only

They are a lot to maintain. They go thru stages of restoration, and decline. this one is in great shape now. It's a shame I didn't expose it properly, the shadows that time of day are what caught my eye and made me hit the brakes. Then, oh yeah, good opportunity for a series of zoom examples. spot metering, IDIOT!

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Elliott

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Livemusic Regular Member • Posts: 157
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only

Nice shots, you can see even the cracks on the wood in the last ciz picture, amazing. CiZ isn't that bad and when shooting jpg easier.

When shooting on 5mp doesn't the dynamic range also getless? I thought smaller sensors means smaller dynamic range. And a 5mp is almost as big as 1/2.3 sensor that has a lesser DR then the 1inch.

tcirillo Regular Member • Posts: 189
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only

elliott, nice examples to illustrate point, thanks.

could you spare me/us digging through 600pgs and remind how to invoke zoom? I think on mine it's assigned to C button when in that mode...is that typical?  i'd like to be able to 'grab it' when needed

tnx

tcirillo Regular Member • Posts: 189
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only

is this it? am i doing it right?

Smart Telecon.
Smart Teleconverter magnifies and trims the center of the image, then records it.
Related Topic Custom Key (still image/movie/playback)
4-737-296-11(1) Copyright 2018 Sony Corporation
MENU → (Camera Settings2) → [ Custom Key] → assign the [Smart Telecon.] function to the desired key.
1
Magnify an image by pressing the key to which you have assigned [Smart Telecon.]. The settings change each time you press the key.

OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,641
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only

NO!

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Elliott

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,641
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only

Just kidding, haven't hadd coffee yet,

Actually, I already wrote about ST Smart Teleconverter in one of my too many threads. Perhaps someone with a memory can find it for us.

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Elliott

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 41,735
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only
1

Effortless? You had to push the shutter button didn't you?

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Tom

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,641
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only

Livemusic wrote:

Nice shots, you can see even the cracks on the wood in the last ciz picture, amazing. CiZ isn't that bad and when shooting jpg easier.

When shooting on 5mp doesn't the dynamic range also getless? I thought smaller sensors means smaller dynamic range. And a 5mp is almost as big as 1/2.3 sensor that has a lesser DR then the 1inch.

You can use your eyes to read, or, to see.

Joking aside, I'm not putting you off, I really can't answer. I wouldn't know a dynamic range if one was sitting in my lap.

I suggest you find a subject that has the need for dynamic range, and take 20mp, 10mp, 5 mp at 24mm, 200mm, and also a series of zoom shots yourself as I did. It helps to know what the human eye can see when viewing results. It helps to see what is and what isn't there if you know what you are looking for.

Then, share your findings with us please.

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Elliott

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,641
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only

tbcass wrote:

Effortless? You had to push the shutter button didn't you?

that was the 2nd step. 1st, I had to forget to check the camera's settings. I guess step 1 does count as effortless.

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Elliott

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,641
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only

Mathematically, scientifically, it may have to do with the individual size of the pixels involved.

The 1" sensor's 20mp pixels are ________________

a 1/2.3" sensor with a high marketing count of 20mp, the pixels size _______are much smaller

my oly 1/1.7", (bigger than 1/2.3") has only 12mp, those pixels are ___________________ 
I think Oly has been praised for not following the numbers game with that sensor.

SO, using only 5mp of the rx100's larger 1" sensor, it's larger pixels may still give sufficient dynamic range.

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Elliott

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,641
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only
1

found it, copy and paste from prior thread (CIZ is shown here)

.....................................................

"1st let me clarify the 3 different types of Zooms: OZ, SZ, CIZ.

OZ = optical zoom.

CIZ and SZ are technically different 'extended zooms', JPEGS only. They are progressive, they begin at the end of optical: after the lens stops physically moving (listen/watch zoom scale), they are digital trickery.

............................................

CIZ Clear Image Zoom (not shown here) is two stages: in-camera sensor crop, combined with in-camera up-scaling, back to the original Image size being used. At 20mp you get up to double the reach: m6 CIZ 20mp gives 201-400mm (max 2x at 20mp). At smaller image sizes, 10mp or 5mp, you get even more CIZ.

CIZ is OPTIONALLY ENGAGED, by you in the menu. CIZ has twice the reach of SZ

...........................

SZ Smart Zoom, shown here, is an optical sensor crop, in camera, with no other in-camera processing, no up-scaling like CIZ does.

SZ is AUTOMATICALLY ENGAGED when you use 10mp or 5mp.

SZ is available on all prior rx100's, and RX10's. Early models called it EOZ extended optical zoom, a better name IMO.

Smart Zoom is only available when you drop down in image size, none at 20mp; up to 1.4x using 10mp; up to 2.0x using 5mp.

new rx100m6 therefore gets SZ 201-280mm using 10mp; SZ 201-400mm using 5mp.

Other models: m1 ending 100mm gets 101-140 using 10mp; or 101-200mm using 5mp

m3,4,5 optical end 70mm get 71-128; 71-140mm

.....................................

Now the answer about SZ/Smart Telecon:

You can get Smart Zoom in two optional methods.

method 1. Image Size: also allows CIZ, (how I am using it now).

method 2. Smart Telecon. You get Smart Zoom only, (CIZ is blocked out).

.................................

method 1. SZ with option to use CIZ also. (you must change the Jpeg Image Size yourself)

a. you engage CIZ. menu, zoom options, turn clear image zoom on. At 20mp, no SZ exists, so you go from end of OZ 200mm directly into CIZ 201-400mm.

b. change Image Size to 10mp (several methods). Now SZ 1.4x is automatically engaged, and CIZ is now double that: 2.8x. SZ occurs progressively, between end of optical and beginning of CIZ. OZ to 200mm; SZ 201 to 280mm; CIZ 281-560mm.

c. change image size to 5mp (several methods). Now SZ (still automatically engaged) becomes 2.0x, and CIZ doubles that to 4.0x. OZ to 200mm; SZ to 201-400mm; CIZ 401-800mm

d. you need to remember to change image size back to 20mp.

how ot change image size options: in main menu; in your Fn menu; assign image size to a custom key, (I am using the C button on my 3 Sony's). It is NOT A TOGGLE. You open it, then rocker to 20/10/5 remember to go back to 20.

.....................................

method 2. SZ ONLY. Assign Smart Telecon to a Custom Key (button or rocker). (C button perhaps) It IS A TOGGLE.

i.e. normally shooting 20mp:

1st press 1.4x (camera changes to 10mp image size for you)

2nd press 2.0x (camera changes to 5mp image size for you)

3rd press, back to OZ (camera changes to 20mp image size for you)

.................................................

In all cases, zoom scales and icons appear on the LCD and EVF. In all cases, because they are progressive, you can leave them on and not use them, or, keep zooming when desired.

Using these, you need to have the habit of checking your settings each time you pick your camera up to use it.

Image Size? AF mode? AF area? Metering Area?; Exposure compensation? ....

I still need to get better at that.

.........................................

Oh Yeah, Jpeg Compression is independent of OZ, SZ, CIZ, so if using Jpeg Extra Fine, everything will be extra fine, including RAW + Jpeg.

................................

Focus, Metering, are easier to see when zoomed in with SZ or CIZ, and easier to see something happen, waiting to take the final shutter press. If you can see it better, the AF and Exposure systems can see it better.

Wide Area for both focus and metering is automatically engaged for both SZ and CIZ. That is another way to tell when you have left optical (using spot or center area) when the focus bracket changes to full screen. Zoom back out, bingo, focus box changes back to what you were using, and where you had it.

Manual Focus magnifies the area even further for you to see, time the shot as well as refine focus."

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Elliott

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Rob Steinle Regular Member • Posts: 339
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only

elliottnewcomb wrote:

found it, copy and paste from prior thread (CIZ is shown here)

.....................................................

"1st let me clarify the 3 different types of Zooms: OZ, SZ, CIZ.

OZ = optical zoom.

CIZ and SZ are technically different 'extended zooms', JPEGS only. They are progressive, they begin at the end of optical: after the lens stops physically moving (listen/watch zoom scale), they are digital trickery.

............................................

CIZ Clear Image Zoom (not shown here) is two stages: in-camera sensor crop, combined with in-camera up-scaling, back to the original Image size being used. At 20mp you get up to double the reach: m6 CIZ 20mp gives 201-400mm (max 2x at 20mp). At smaller image sizes, 10mp or 5mp, you get even more CIZ.

CIZ is OPTIONALLY ENGAGED, by you in the menu. CIZ has twice the reach of SZ

...........................

SZ Smart Zoom, shown here, is an optical sensor crop, in camera, with no other in-camera processing, no up-scaling like CIZ does.

SZ is AUTOMATICALLY ENGAGED when you use 10mp or 5mp.

SZ is available on all prior rx100's, and RX10's. Early models called it EOZ extended optical zoom, a better name IMO.

Smart Zoom is only available when you drop down in image size, none at 20mp; up to 1.4x using 10mp; up to 2.0x using 5mp.

new rx100m6 therefore gets SZ 201-280mm using 10mp; SZ 201-400mm using 5mp.

Other models: m1 ending 100mm gets 101-140 using 10mp; or 101-200mm using 5mp

m3,4,5 optical end 70mm get 71-128; 71-140mm

.....................................

Now the answer about SZ/Smart Telecon:

You can get Smart Zoom in two optional methods.

method 1. Image Size: also allows CIZ, (how I am using it now).

method 2. Smart Telecon. You get Smart Zoom only, (CIZ is blocked out).

.................................

method 1. SZ with option to use CIZ also. (you must change the Jpeg Image Size yourself)

a. you engage CIZ. menu, zoom options, turn clear image zoom on. At 20mp, no SZ exists, so you go from end of OZ 200mm directly into CIZ 201-400mm.

b. change Image Size to 10mp (several methods). Now SZ 1.4x is automatically engaged, and CIZ is now double that: 2.8x. SZ occurs progressively, between end of optical and beginning of CIZ. OZ to 200mm; SZ 201 to 280mm; CIZ 281-560mm.

c. change image size to 5mp (several methods). Now SZ (still automatically engaged) becomes 2.0x, and CIZ doubles that to 4.0x. OZ to 200mm; SZ to 201-400mm; CIZ 401-800mm

d. you need to remember to change image size back to 20mp.

how ot change image size options: in main menu; in your Fn menu; assign image size to a custom key, (I am using the C button on my 3 Sony's). It is NOT A TOGGLE. You open it, then rocker to 20/10/5 remember to go back to 20.

.....................................

method 2. SZ ONLY. Assign Smart Telecon to a Custom Key (button or rocker). (C button perhaps) It IS A TOGGLE.

i.e. normally shooting 20mp:

1st press 1.4x (camera changes to 10mp image size for you)

2nd press 2.0x (camera changes to 5mp image size for you)

3rd press, back to OZ (camera changes to 20mp image size for you)

.................................................

In all cases, zoom scales and icons appear on the LCD and EVF. In all cases, because they are progressive, you can leave them on and not use them, or, keep zooming when desired.

Using these, you need to have the habit of checking your settings each time you pick your camera up to use it.

Image Size? AF mode? AF area? Metering Area?; Exposure compensation? ....

I still need to get better at that.

.........................................

Oh Yeah, Jpeg Compression is independent of OZ, SZ, CIZ, so if using Jpeg Extra Fine, everything will be extra fine, including RAW + Jpeg.

................................

Focus, Metering, are easier to see when zoomed in with SZ or CIZ, and easier to see something happen, waiting to take the final shutter press. If you can see it better, the AF and Exposure systems can see it better.

Wide Area for both focus and metering is automatically engaged for both SZ and CIZ. That is another way to tell when you have left optical (using spot or center area) when the focus bracket changes to full screen. Zoom back out, bingo, focus box changes back to what you were using, and where you had it.

Manual Focus magnifies the area even further for you to see, time the shot as well as refine focus."

Elliott,

Many thanks, you did it again..!  You took the nature of the unknowable, and explained it to the rest of us in understandable terms.  Really glad you gave the M6 a second chance.  You can bet this one is bookmarked.

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~ Rob - aka.. RD ~ Robert David -or- Really Dumb ~ Depends on the day...

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,641
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only

Well, I am glad many get some help from some of my threads,

but, I have to stop now, go away and take some photos.

Whenever a new model hits, it takes over the forum, and I have been a big part of that.

I would encourage everyone to scan back thru several pages of threads, see what others have been showing, because threads get blown off page one much too quickly.

so, to anyone else who says something nice, thanks, but I am going to try and not respond.

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Elliott

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 41,735
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only

Livemusic wrote:

When shooting on 5mp doesn't the dynamic range also getless?

It shouldn't. Since 5mp is a crop of the full sensor it should have the DR of the full sensor. Think of it this way. If you take a photo with a 20mp 1" sensor, download it to your computer and then crop it to 5mp it has no effect on the dynamic range.

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Tom

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Livemusic Regular Member • Posts: 157
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only

That makes sense, thnx for explaining.

OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,641
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only
2

I took and posted these for all to see, and keep my promise to show CIZ as well as SZ.

I never studied them myself until just now, viewing 'original' from this thread.

My conclusions (for this m6 model only):

1. Sony's implementation of these extra zooms keeps improving incrementally to my eye. It is done by alogarithms, perhaps these are what progressively improve. Perhaps they are 3rd party, used by Sony. Perhaps processor capabilities, tweaks, enable use of more intensive alogarithms, who knows.

I could see that the RX10m3 extra zooms were better than prior RX10m1,2 (to my eye). I have not seen any SZ or CIZ from RX10m4, probably because 600mm is sufficient, and most RX10m4 owners are RAW shooters, Jpeg extra zooms not available. I think my rx100m3 CIZ is better than my rx100m1, and better than my RX1r. rx100m6 is better than my m3.

2. CIZ upscaling artifacts are not readily apparent at small sizes, but are visible when viewed large (compared to SZ of similar zoom power), and the artifacts are more apparent at lower image sizes when using 'more' CIZ.

3. I prefer using SZ at lower image sizes to using CIZ. I will stick with 20mp OZ 24-200mm; 10mp OZ and SZ to 201-280mm; 5mp OZ and SZ 201-400mm. that puts 24-400mm in my pants pocket, and everything past 200mm is still f4.5.

4. Viewing the OZ 24mm and OZ 200mm photos, 20mp; 10mp; 5mp: there is no readily apparent visual penalty using lower pixel count at my viewing/printing size: max 11" high. Certainly if viewed/printed large, or heavily cropped, you would want a higher pixel count.

5. The rx100m6's ability for shallow focus/blurred backgrounds/bokeh quality, are maintained and extended using SZ. Not apparent here, but easily seen in my butterfly photos in the SZ thread.

6. Resize: I always post original resolution, which this site does _____ to? It has been suggested that resizing actually looks better. If so, perhaps CIZ artifacts when downsized will be less or more apparent, I don't know.

I am interested in other's opinions, knowledge from these, and/or their own sample photos.

So, it's CIZ OFF for now.

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Elliott

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 41,735
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only

elliottnewcomb wrote:

6. Resize: I always post original resolution, which this site does _____ to? It has been suggested that resizing actually looks better. If so, perhaps CIZ artifacts when downsized will be less or more apparent, I don't know.

Why shoot CIZ and then downsize?

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Tom

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,641
Re: rx100m6: OZ; SZ; CIZ. it's a lot of zoom in your pocket, Jpeg Only

tbcass wrote:

elliottnewcomb wrote:

6. Resize: I always post original resolution, which this site does _____ to? It has been suggested that resizing actually looks better. If so, perhaps CIZ artifacts when downsized will be less or more apparent, I don't know.

Why shoot CIZ and then downsize?

You misunderstand me. Many downsize, Bill says they actually look better in post windows, so I was informing everyone that mine are orig rez when they view them, especially if they view original.

CIZ might be acceptable to people who know the max size they will be viewed. And, if downsizing to show in a post window is better, then artifacts of CIZ may be less apparent. Has nothing to do with viewing at home.

And, I am not sure what if anything happens during upload to the site.

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Elliott

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