Some mirrorless options for Pentax

Started Aug 25, 2018 | Discussions
flektogon
flektogon Veteran Member • Posts: 3,958
Re: Some mirrorless options for Pentax

Barry Pearson wrote:

For reasons I've identified above, it would necessarily be significantly larger than a K-S1. (How successful was the K-S1? It was below my radar).

But I don't know what the minimum size would be. I know you are not the only person who would like a smaller FF camera!

One SD card? Smaller battery? Fewer dedicated dials and screens? Given that it would still be expensive because it was an FF camera, would it sell without such features? I suspect FF cameras raise expectations, and those imply imply size and weight.

The K-S1 is one beautiful and perfect camera. It was not very well accepted, because it was different! And people generally do not like anything was it "different", whether cameras, or other people. So, for sure there are many shooters like me, who would happily acquire a FF DSLR camera, if it wasn't such a monster. So, if I decide to get one, and if Pentax meantime doesn't come with a smaller model, I will abandon the Pentax brand without a wink of eye. And there are many like me. And what would I do with my Pentax lenses? For sure there will be adapters to use them on every other camera brand.

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Regards,
Peter

agukha Regular Member • Posts: 218
Re: Some mirrorless options for Pentax

Why a ML would be needed ?

The Z6/Z7 are only marginally smaller than a KP :

http://j.mp/2NnwRfu

Fogel70
Fogel70 Senior Member • Posts: 1,302
Re: Some mirrorless options for Pentax
1

flektogon wrote:

I don't think that it would be wise for Pentax to come with a new mount. If an average Pentax user like myself (who likes the Pentax brand, but is not crazy in love with Pentax) wants to switch to a MILC, well, there are dozens of options already available from Sony, Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic, Canon and now even from Nikon. But Pentax in my opinion could improve their DSLR cameras to be smaller (if not lighter as well), closer to how the MILC look like. Especially the FF DSLR cameras should be smaller. Here I do not understand why for example the K-1 has to be such a monster. Why such a FF DSLR can't be like the K-3 for example? The K-3 "chamber" should be already large enough to accommodate the FF-sized sensor and mirror (if not, here Pentax should concentrate their effort), so I really I do not see any reason why the Pentax FF DSLR cameras can't be smaller. They don't need to have articulated LCD panels, I wouldn't mind if they didn't have any rear LCD at all. I think this is the way most suitable for Pentax.

The reason for Ricoh to release a mirrorless sytem should be for them to reach for the mirrorless market. For this they would need a fully optimized mirrorless system, that other users are looking for.

If they release a K-mount mirrorless camera it mainly would compete with K-mount DSLR sales, which Ricoh do not gain much on. So this will happen if/when mirrorless can fully replace DSLR. K-01 was an experiment that did not go well; so it will probably take time before they try this again.

The Q went much better as fully optimized mirrorless system, and it was quite successful for a time, but small sensor cameras do not have much place when smartphones are totally dominating the small sensor market.

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Barry Pearson
OP Barry Pearson Veteran Member • Posts: 8,723
Re: Some mirrorless options for Pentax

johnami wrote:

flektogon wrote:

I don't think that it would be wise for Pentax to come with a new mount. If an average Pentax user like myself (who likes the Pentax brand, but is not crazy in love with Pentax) wants to switch to a MILC, well, there are dozens of options already available from Sony, Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic, Canon and now even from Nikon. But Pentax in my opinion could improve their DSLR cameras to be smaller (if not lighter as well), closer to how the MILC look like. Especially the FF DSLR cameras should be smaller. Here I do not understand why for example the K-1 has to be such a monster. Why such a FF DSLR can't be like the K-3 for example? The K-3 "chamber" should be already large enough to accommodate the FF-sized sensor and mirror (if not, here Pentax should concentrate their effort), so I really I do not see any reason why the Pentax FF DSLR cameras can't be smaller. They don't need to have articulated LCD panels, I wouldn't mind if they didn't have any back LCD at all, as I do not use the LV mode. I think this is the way most suitable for Pentax.

I have to agree with you. Small is beautiful. Pentax had the technical skills to produce the smallest SLRs on the market (along with Olympus) when film was king.

Today's DSLRs are very different boxes, Electronic and complex. The new K 1 2 has a more complex mother board than the K1. All this stuff takes space.

Perhaps the next generation FF will be lighter, smaller and simpler. I would certainly welcome that.

If small is required, why use FF?

It is possible to shoot with an APS-C camera, crop, print at A3+, and put this in front of a judge with success. (I've done so with a Pentax K-5iiS).

If what is required is to enter a digital image competition, or upload to a web gallery, the same applies, probably more so.

FF is not some target sensor size that has to be aspired to. It is simply one of a whole range of possibilities that can be selected according to requirements.

The bigger the sensor, the greater the size, weight, and price, of the camera, inevitably. Larger raw files. Probably slower burst rates and buffer capacity. Perhaps the need for bigger batteries.

That applies to lenses as well as cameras. They tend to scale up rapidly with sensor size. And the bigger the sensor, typically the smaller the zoom-ratio on average. The larger the filters. (Etc).

Someone who is prepared to buy into all of that is likely to have expectations that won't be satisfied with a reduced-feature camera.

(I'm speaking as someone with m4/3, Q-mount, APS-C, and FF, equipment).

To take the mirrorless road with a new mount just to have a smaller body would be

an error IMO.

I want mirrorless, perhaps in just one APS-C or FF camera, because of the benefits I would have from not having to view via a mirror!

I sometimes spend hours on end shooting (hand-held) with a K-1ii plus battery grip plus D FA 150-450mm lens. As long as the combination is not much more than 3 kikograms, I'm not particularly concerned about the size and weight. (I need the exercise!)

My Lumix LX100 is my "carry everywhere" camera. And even a small camera like that can deliver surprisingly good photos.

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TacticDesigns
TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,297
To play the devil's advocate . . . time for another FF dSLR?

To play the devil's advocate . . .

Pentax only has 1 FF dSLR camera.

What if another model was introduced?

Has most of the people that are going to get the Pentax K-1 (II) already gotten their camera?

If so, time to open up the gates for the rest of us who think the Pentax K-1 is just way too much camera for what they want to do with it?

I just want a FF sensor to toss my old manual focus lenses on so I can use them at their original focal length.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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johnami
johnami Senior Member • Posts: 1,109
Re: To play the devil's advocate . . . time for another FF dSLR?
1

TacticDesigns wrote:

To play the devil's advocate . . .

Pentax only has 1 FF dSLR camera.

What if another model was introduced?

Has most of the people that are going to get the Pentax K-1 (II) already gotten their camera?

If so, time to open up the gates for the rest of us who think the Pentax K-1 is just way too much camera for what they want to do with it?

I just want a FF sensor to toss my old manual focus lenses on so I can use them at their original focal length.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

Wouldn't that be good........that would be a revolution....

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Fogel70
Fogel70 Senior Member • Posts: 1,302
Re: To play the devil's advocate . . . time for another FF dSLR?
1

TacticDesigns wrote:

To play the devil's advocate . . .

Pentax only has 1 FF dSLR camera.

What if another model was introduced?

Has most of the people that are going to get the Pentax K-1 (II) already gotten their camera?

If so, time to open up the gates for the rest of us who think the Pentax K-1 is just way too much camera for what they want to do with it?

I just want a FF sensor to toss my old manual focus lenses on so I can use them at their original focal length.

Why not just buy something like a used Sony A7 for $400-500 and $10 adapter?

Ricoh develop cameras to be used with their current lenses. There is no profit for them in develop a cheap camera to be used with lenses sold by a different company 30-40 years ago.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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flektogon
flektogon Veteran Member • Posts: 3,958
Re: Some mirrorless options for Pentax

Barry Pearson wrote:

johnami wrote:

flektogon wrote:

I don't think that it would be wise for Pentax to come with a new mount. If an average Pentax user like myself (who likes the Pentax brand, but is not crazy in love with Pentax) wants to switch to a MILC, well, there are dozens of options already available from Sony, Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic, Canon and now even from Nikon. But Pentax in my opinion could improve their DSLR cameras to be smaller (if not lighter as well), closer to how the MILC look like. Especially the FF DSLR cameras should be smaller. Here I do not understand why for example the K-1 has to be such a monster. Why such a FF DSLR can't be like the K-3 for example? The K-3 "chamber" should be already large enough to accommodate the FF-sized sensor and mirror (if not, here Pentax should concentrate their effort), so I really I do not see any reason why the Pentax FF DSLR cameras can't be smaller. They don't need to have articulated LCD panels, I wouldn't mind if they didn't have any back LCD at all, as I do not use the LV mode. I think this is the way most suitable for Pentax.

I have to agree with you. Small is beautiful. Pentax had the technical skills to produce the smallest SLRs on the market (along with Olympus) when film was king.

Today's DSLRs are very different boxes, Electronic and complex. The new K 1 2 has a more complex mother board than the K1. All this stuff takes space.

Perhaps the next generation FF will be lighter, smaller and simpler. I would certainly welcome that.

If small is required, why use FF?

It is possible to shoot with an APS-C camera, crop, print at A3+, and put this in front of a judge with success. (I've done so with a Pentax K-5iiS).

If what is required is to enter a digital image competition, or upload to a web gallery, the same applies, probably more so.

FF is not some target sensor size that has to be aspired to. It is simply one of a whole range of possibilities that can be selected according to requirements.

The bigger the sensor, the greater the size, weight, and price, of the camera, inevitably. Larger raw files. Probably slower burst rates and buffer capacity. Perhaps the need for bigger batteries.

That applies to lenses as well as cameras. They tend to scale up rapidly with sensor size. And the bigger the sensor, typically the smaller the zoom-ratio on average. The larger the filters. (Etc).

Someone who is prepared to buy into all of that is likely to have expectations that won't be satisfied with a reduced-feature camera.

(I'm speaking as someone with m4/3, Q-mount, APS-C, and FF, equipment).

To take the mirrorless road with a new mount just to have a smaller body would be

an error IMO.

I want mirrorless, perhaps in just one APS-C or FF camera, because of the benefits I would have from not having to view via a mirror!

I sometimes spend hours on end shooting (hand-held) with a K-1ii plus battery grip plus D FA 150-450mm lens. As long as the combination is not much more than 3 kikograms, I'm not particularly concerned about the size and weight. (I need the exercise!)

My Lumix LX100 is my "carry everywhere" camera. And even a small camera like that can deliver surprisingly good photos.

OK., the simplest answer why I would like to have a FF Pentax camera is, that for example my Pentax-A 35-105 lens would be really 35 to 105mm zoom lens, not something like 52-156mm lens. The IQ of my APS-C camera is more than adequate. So, a smaller, cheaper, though only 24Mp FF Pentax DSLR camera is everything what I want.

TacticDesigns
TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,297
Re: To play the devil's advocate . . . time for another FF dSLR?
1

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

To play the devil's advocate . . .

Pentax only has 1 FF dSLR camera.

What if another model was introduced?

Has most of the people that are going to get the Pentax K-1 (II) already gotten their camera?

If so, time to open up the gates for the rest of us who think the Pentax K-1 is just way too much camera for what they want to do with it?

I just want a FF sensor to toss my old manual focus lenses on so I can use them at their original focal length.

Why not just buy something like a used Sony A7 for $400-500 and $10 adapter?

+1

That thought has crossed my mind!

Ricoh develop cameras to be used with their current lenses. There is no profit for them in develop a cheap camera to be used with lenses sold by a different company 30-40 years ago.

I have to admit . . . I know what I'd like to see and do not consider whether it makes sense or not. LOL.

Not really my task, unless they are hiring!

I guess I look at the Pentax K-1 and think . . . ok, great camera!

But how big is the target market?

People with existing lenses would make up a lot of the people buying the Pentax K-1.

And to an lesser extent there will be people buying into the system.

The Pentax K-1 has been on the market for two years.

https://www.dpreview.com/products/pentax/slrs/pentax_k1

Not a long time.

Once most of the people who plan to get a Pentax K-1 (II) have gotten theirs . . . what next?

Keep bring out a new K-1 for users to upgrade to the new model?

Maybe at that point in time it would make sense to open up to net to invite more people into the family.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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Alex Sarbu Forum Pro • Posts: 10,253
Re: Some mirrorless options for Pentax
1

Barry Pearson wrote:

Fogel70 wrote:

.... With rear lens element protruding into the lens mount you will need free space around the protruding part to avoid damaging lens or camera attaching and removing the lens.

I wonder how different that would be from the D FA* 50mm f/1.4?

It may not be apparent below, but the peak of the curve of the rear element is nearly at the same plane as the rear end of its enclosing tube.

The rear element is very exposed!

Maybe like this:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59614336?image=0

The prototype lens which used this concept, presented with the K-01's announcement.

Alex

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Fogel70
Fogel70 Senior Member • Posts: 1,302
Re: To play the devil's advocate . . . time for another FF dSLR?
1

TacticDesigns wrote:

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

To play the devil's advocate . . .

Pentax only has 1 FF dSLR camera.

What if another model was introduced?

Has most of the people that are going to get the Pentax K-1 (II) already gotten their camera?

If so, time to open up the gates for the rest of us who think the Pentax K-1 is just way too much camera for what they want to do with it?

I just want a FF sensor to toss my old manual focus lenses on so I can use them at their original focal length.

Why not just buy something like a used Sony A7 for $400-500 and $10 adapter?

+1

That thought has crossed my mind!

Ricoh develop cameras to be used with their current lenses. There is no profit for them in develop a cheap camera to be used with lenses sold by a different company 30-40 years ago.

I have to admit . . . I know what I'd like to see and do not consider whether it makes sense or not. LOL.

Not really my task, unless they are hiring!

I guess I look at the Pentax K-1 and think . . . ok, great camera!

But how big is the target market?

People with existing lenses would make up a lot of the people buying the Pentax K-1.

Yes, that was the main purpose with K-1. A camera designed for existing users.

But the plan was also that once they sola them a K-1, many users would realize that they need new lenses. That is one of the reason why Ricoh used 36MP sensor and pixelshift which few old lenses are capable of.

So lots of new lenses has been sold to new users of K-1.

And to an lesser extent there will be people buying into the system.

The Pentax K-1 has been on the market for two years.

https://www.dpreview.com/products/pentax/slrs/pentax_k1

Not a long time.

Once most of the people who plan to get a Pentax K-1 (II) have gotten theirs . . . what next?

They will continue developing new lenses to be sold to K-1 users. The business has always been about selling cameras so more lenses can be sold.

Keep bring out a new K-1 for users to upgrade to the new model?

Maybe at that point in time it would make sense to open up to net to invite more people into the family.

Lower end stuff may come in the future, but right now the whole camera industry seems to be about selling higher end stuff as it is where most profits are. Most of the lower end has very little profit or have been completely killed by smartphones.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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TacticDesigns
TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,297
Re: To play the devil's advocate . . . time for another FF dSLR?

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

..

Why not just buy something like a used Sony A7 for $400-500 and $10 adapter?

+1

That thought has crossed my mind!

Ricoh develop cameras to be used with their current lenses. There is no profit for them in develop a cheap camera to be used with lenses sold by a different company 30-40 years ago.

I have to admit . . . I know what I'd like to see and do not consider whether it makes sense or not. LOL.

Not really my task, unless they are hiring!

I guess I look at the Pentax K-1 and think . . . ok, great camera!

But how big is the target market?

People with existing lenses would make up a lot of the people buying the Pentax K-1.

Yes, that was the main purpose with K-1. A camera designed for existing users.

But the plan was also that once they sola them a K-1, many users would realize that they need new lenses. That is one of the reason why Ricoh used 36MP sensor and pixelshift which few old lenses are capable of.

So lots of new lenses has been sold to new users of K-1.

+1

Absolutely!

And to an lesser extent there will be people buying into the system.

The Pentax K-1 has been on the market for two years.

https://www.dpreview.com/products/pentax/slrs/pentax_k1

Not a long time.

Once most of the people who plan to get a Pentax K-1 (II) have gotten theirs . . . what next?

They will continue developing new lenses to be sold to K-1 users. The business has always been about selling cameras so more lenses can be sold.

But what if that market is a fixed size or . . . maybe getting less? (As users start using their phones?)

Keep bring out a new K-1 for users to upgrade to the new model?

Maybe at that point in time it would make sense to open up to net to invite more people into the family.

Lower end stuff may come in the future, but right now the whole camera industry seems to be about selling higher end stuff as it is where most profits are. Most of the lower end has very little profit or have been completely killed by smartphones.

That does seem to be the push.

Maybe that is kinda short term thinking?

Where do the new users come from?

What if there was a digital successor to the Pentax K1000?

I guess one way to look at it was that the K1000 was the entry-level camera.

But . . . it inherited a lot from the Spotmatic series, which in its day was a high end camera!

So . . . maybe just do a trickle down process again.

When the Pentax K-1 III comes out, let some of the Pentax K-1 features trickle down into a more entry-level body for new users to try out the Pentax eco-system?

But a FF sensor.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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Fogel70
Fogel70 Senior Member • Posts: 1,302
Re: Some mirrorless options for Pentax

flektogon wrote:

Barry Pearson wrote:

johnami wrote:

flektogon wrote:

I don't think that it would be wise for Pentax to come with a new mount. If an average Pentax user like myself (who likes the Pentax brand, but is not crazy in love with Pentax) wants to switch to a MILC, well, there are dozens of options already available from Sony, Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic, Canon and now even from Nikon. But Pentax in my opinion could improve their DSLR cameras to be smaller (if not lighter as well), closer to how the MILC look like. Especially the FF DSLR cameras should be smaller. Here I do not understand why for example the K-1 has to be such a monster. Why such a FF DSLR can't be like the K-3 for example? The K-3 "chamber" should be already large enough to accommodate the FF-sized sensor and mirror (if not, here Pentax should concentrate their effort), so I really I do not see any reason why the Pentax FF DSLR cameras can't be smaller. They don't need to have articulated LCD panels, I wouldn't mind if they didn't have any back LCD at all, as I do not use the LV mode. I think this is the way most suitable for Pentax.

I have to agree with you. Small is beautiful. Pentax had the technical skills to produce the smallest SLRs on the market (along with Olympus) when film was king.

Today's DSLRs are very different boxes, Electronic and complex. The new K 1 2 has a more complex mother board than the K1. All this stuff takes space.

Perhaps the next generation FF will be lighter, smaller and simpler. I would certainly welcome that.

If small is required, why use FF?

It is possible to shoot with an APS-C camera, crop, print at A3+, and put this in front of a judge with success. (I've done so with a Pentax K-5iiS).

If what is required is to enter a digital image competition, or upload to a web gallery, the same applies, probably more so.

FF is not some target sensor size that has to be aspired to. It is simply one of a whole range of possibilities that can be selected according to requirements.

The bigger the sensor, the greater the size, weight, and price, of the camera, inevitably. Larger raw files. Probably slower burst rates and buffer capacity. Perhaps the need for bigger batteries.

That applies to lenses as well as cameras. They tend to scale up rapidly with sensor size. And the bigger the sensor, typically the smaller the zoom-ratio on average. The larger the filters. (Etc).

Someone who is prepared to buy into all of that is likely to have expectations that won't be satisfied with a reduced-feature camera.

(I'm speaking as someone with m4/3, Q-mount, APS-C, and FF, equipment).

To take the mirrorless road with a new mount just to have a smaller body would be

an error IMO.

I want mirrorless, perhaps in just one APS-C or FF camera, because of the benefits I would have from not having to view via a mirror!

I sometimes spend hours on end shooting (hand-held) with a K-1ii plus battery grip plus D FA 150-450mm lens. As long as the combination is not much more than 3 kikograms, I'm not particularly concerned about the size and weight. (I need the exercise!)

My Lumix LX100 is my "carry everywhere" camera. And even a small camera like that can deliver surprisingly good photos.

OK., the simplest answer why I would like to have a FF Pentax camera is, that for example my Pentax-A 35-105 lens would be really 35 to 105mm zoom lens, not something like 52-156mm lens. The IQ of my APS-C camera is more than adequate. So, a smaller, cheaper, though only 24Mp FF Pentax DSLR camera is everything what I want.

The cheapest and smallest solution for this is probably a mirrorless short flange APS-C camera used with a Pentx K-mount lens turbo adapter. This adapter will convert the lens to APS-C lens with focal lenght of 17-75 mm and make the aperture one stop faster.

Here you can read a little more about it.

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2014/07/31/lens-turbo-ii-review-by-henrik-kristensen/

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Barry Pearson
OP Barry Pearson Veteran Member • Posts: 8,723
Re: To play the devil's advocate . . . time for another FF dSLR?

TacticDesigns wrote:

To play the devil's advocate . . .

Pentax only has 1 FF dSLR camera.

What if another model was introduced?

Has most of the people that are going to get the Pentax K-1 (II) already gotten their camera?

If so, time to open up the gates for the rest of us who think the Pentax K-1 is just way too much camera for what they want to do with it?

I just want a FF sensor to toss my old manual focus lenses on so I can use them at their original focal length.

What do you want to achieve?

Could you get equivalent or better photos using modern APS-C equipment?

If so, does it make sense for Ricoh/Pentax to expend lots of development resource to help you do something you didn't need to do?

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Barry Pearson
OP Barry Pearson Veteran Member • Posts: 8,723
Re: Some mirrorless options for Pentax
1

flektogon wrote:

Barry Pearson wrote:

johnami wrote:

flektogon wrote:

I don't think that it would be wise for Pentax to come with a new mount. If an average Pentax user like myself (who likes the Pentax brand, but is not crazy in love with Pentax) wants to switch to a MILC, well, there are dozens of options already available from Sony, Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic, Canon and now even from Nikon. But Pentax in my opinion could improve their DSLR cameras to be smaller (if not lighter as well), closer to how the MILC look like. Especially the FF DSLR cameras should be smaller. Here I do not understand why for example the K-1 has to be such a monster. Why such a FF DSLR can't be like the K-3 for example? The K-3 "chamber" should be already large enough to accommodate the FF-sized sensor and mirror (if not, here Pentax should concentrate their effort), so I really I do not see any reason why the Pentax FF DSLR cameras can't be smaller. They don't need to have articulated LCD panels, I wouldn't mind if they didn't have any back LCD at all, as I do not use the LV mode. I think this is the way most suitable for Pentax.

I have to agree with you. Small is beautiful. Pentax had the technical skills to produce the smallest SLRs on the market (along with Olympus) when film was king.

Today's DSLRs are very different boxes, Electronic and complex. The new K 1 2 has a more complex mother board than the K1. All this stuff takes space.

Perhaps the next generation FF will be lighter, smaller and simpler. I would certainly welcome that.

If small is required, why use FF?

It is possible to shoot with an APS-C camera, crop, print at A3+, and put this in front of a judge with success. (I've done so with a Pentax K-5iiS).

If what is required is to enter a digital image competition, or upload to a web gallery, the same applies, probably more so.

FF is not some target sensor size that has to be aspired to. It is simply one of a whole range of possibilities that can be selected according to requirements.

The bigger the sensor, the greater the size, weight, and price, of the camera, inevitably. Larger raw files. Probably slower burst rates and buffer capacity. Perhaps the need for bigger batteries.

That applies to lenses as well as cameras. They tend to scale up rapidly with sensor size. And the bigger the sensor, typically the smaller the zoom-ratio on average. The larger the filters. (Etc).

Someone who is prepared to buy into all of that is likely to have expectations that won't be satisfied with a reduced-feature camera.

(I'm speaking as someone with m4/3, Q-mount, APS-C, and FF, equipment).

To take the mirrorless road with a new mount just to have a smaller body would be

an error IMO.

I want mirrorless, perhaps in just one APS-C or FF camera, because of the benefits I would have from not having to view via a mirror!

I sometimes spend hours on end shooting (hand-held) with a K-1ii plus battery grip plus D FA 150-450mm lens. As long as the combination is not much more than 3 kikograms, I'm not particularly concerned about the size and weight. (I need the exercise!)

My Lumix LX100 is my "carry everywhere" camera. And even a small camera like that can deliver surprisingly good photos.

OK., the simplest answer why I would like to have a FF Pentax camera is, that for example my Pentax-A 35-105 lens would be really 35 to 105mm zoom lens, not something like 52-156mm lens. The IQ of my APS-C camera is more than adequate. So, a smaller, cheaper, though only 24Mp FF Pentax DSLR camera is everything what I want.

So you want Ricoh/Pentax to expend significant development resources to release a cheap (low margin) camera so that you can use old lenses that bring in no new revenues to Ricoh/Pentax?

Could you make a plausible business case to Ricoh/Pentax management about why that would be a good return on investment?

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Fogel70
Fogel70 Senior Member • Posts: 1,302
Re: To play the devil's advocate . . . time for another FF dSLR?
1

TacticDesigns wrote:

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

..

Why not just buy something like a used Sony A7 for $400-500 and $10 adapter?

+1

That thought has crossed my mind!

Ricoh develop cameras to be used with their current lenses. There is no profit for them in develop a cheap camera to be used with lenses sold by a different company 30-40 years ago.

I have to admit . . . I know what I'd like to see and do not consider whether it makes sense or not. LOL.

Not really my task, unless they are hiring!

I guess I look at the Pentax K-1 and think . . . ok, great camera!

But how big is the target market?

People with existing lenses would make up a lot of the people buying the Pentax K-1.

Yes, that was the main purpose with K-1. A camera designed for existing users.

But the plan was also that once they sola them a K-1, many users would realize that they need new lenses. That is one of the reason why Ricoh used 36MP sensor and pixelshift which few old lenses are capable of.

So lots of new lenses has been sold to new users of K-1.

+1

Absolutely!

And to an lesser extent there will be people buying into the system.

The Pentax K-1 has been on the market for two years.

https://www.dpreview.com/products/pentax/slrs/pentax_k1

Not a long time.

Once most of the people who plan to get a Pentax K-1 (II) have gotten theirs . . . what next?

They will continue developing new lenses to be sold to K-1 users. The business has always been about selling cameras so more lenses can be sold.

But what if that market is a fixed size or . . . maybe getting less? (As users start using their phones?)

Keep bring out a new K-1 for users to upgrade to the new model?

Maybe at that point in time it would make sense to open up to net to invite more people into the family.

Lower end stuff may come in the future, but right now the whole camera industry seems to be about selling higher end stuff as it is where most profits are. Most of the lower end has very little profit or have been completely killed by smartphones.

That does seem to be the push.

Maybe that is kinda short term thinking?

Where do the new users come from?

What if there was a digital successor to the Pentax K1000?

Every Pentax DSLR has in some way been a successor to K1000. But camerass today are much cheaper than they where 40 years ago. When K1000 was released it did cost $300 with a 55/2 kit lens, which is over $1300 in todays value.

So it is about the same price range as for KP with 18-135mm kit lens.

I guess one way to look at it was that the K1000 was the entry-level camera.

But . . . it inherited a lot from the Spotmatic series, which in its day was a high end camera!

So . . . maybe just do a trickle down process again.

This happens all the time, basically on every new released camera.

When the Pentax K-1 III comes out, let some of the Pentax K-1 features trickle down into a more entry-level body for new users to try out the Pentax eco-system?

But a FF sensor.

Before a budget FF DSLR will come, alot more budget FF lenses has to be released. Before that happen, Pentax low budget will belong to APS-C.

Pentax K1 II is already among the cheaper FF cameras on the market. It is mainly older FF cameras released many years ago that are sold cheaper.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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Barry Pearson
OP Barry Pearson Veteran Member • Posts: 8,723
Re: To play the devil's advocate . . . time for another FF dSLR?

TacticDesigns wrote:

.... So . . . maybe just do a trickle down process again.

When the Pentax K-1 III comes out, let some of the Pentax K-1 features trickle down into a more entry-level body for new users to try out the Pentax eco-system?

But a FF sensor.

The camera isn't the key user cost-driver. The lenses are.

(There is no point in people appealing to Ricoh/Pentax to enable them to exploit their legacy / 2nd-hand / 3rd-party lens. There is no financial benefit to Ricoh/Pentax in doing that! Ricoh/Pentax want/need people to buy new lenses from them).

Achieving the following graphic cost more than many people would be willing to spend.

I believe an aim for Ricoh/Pentax should be to enable people to obtain a comprehensive range of new Pentax FF lenses without being discouraged by the current prices of parts of the range.

For example, I suspect that few people need, or are will to pay for, (or carry around), the D FA 15-30mm f/2.8. Perhaps a cheaper alternative is needed. (Etc).

There are some hints about that in the roadmap.

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TacticDesigns
TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,297
Re: To play the devil's advocate . . . time for another FF dSLR?

Barry Pearson wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

To play the devil's advocate . . .

Pentax only has 1 FF dSLR camera.

What if another model was introduced?

Has most of the people that are going to get the Pentax K-1 (II) already gotten their camera?

If so, time to open up the gates for the rest of us who think the Pentax K-1 is just way too much camera for what they want to do with it?

I just want a FF sensor to toss my old manual focus lenses on so I can use them at their original focal length.

What do you want to achieve?

To use the old manual focus Pentax lenses my dad gave me at their original intended angle of view.

The thing is, growing up, my dad always had a Pentax SLR camera.

Originally the Pentax SV. And then the Pentax ME Super and Super Program.

The thing is, I always thought I'd have one of his cameras with me taking pictures of my kids.

My dad did give me the Pentax ME Super and Super Program, but neither of them work anymore.

But he also gave me a Pentax K100d and all the old manual focus lenses.

But . . . the last Pentax film camera I used was the Pentax K1000. My sister's.

I still remember the last time I ran a roll of film through it.

It was such a simple and fun camera.

I guess, in some ways, even though I have lots of dSLR cameras, I still want to see if I can get back to something like that.

Could you get equivalent or better photos using modern APS-C equipment?

No.

That is what I have been doing.

But I don't have a manual focus lens wider than 28mm.

And I was wanting to play around with zone focusing with that 28mm.

Nikon and Canon have introduced lower end FF cameras. (I know. I have one.)

As time goes on, the cost of FF may come down.

If there is a Pentax FF camera (dSLR or mirrorless) that drops into a price I can justify . . . I would be interested in it.

If so, does it make sense for Ricoh/Pentax to expend lots of development resource to help you do something you didn't need to do?

No one needs to take pictures.

Life would go on without cameras.

But people want to take pictures.

But besides that . . . I look at camera series and think . . . what is the entry point to a system?

Is it APS-C? Is it a lower cost FF?

For me . . . I've had Pentax, Canon and Nikon dSLR cameras. In fact, at one time I had all three systems at the same time. LOL.

But when deciding to upgrade my Pentax K100d, I seemed trapped between upgrading to a camera that was way over what I wanted (and wanted to spend), or below my current camera in some respects.

As for Nikon. I had the D7000. (Still have it.)

But I was looking at FF. Not that I could really afford it. But it seemed the next step beyond the f/2.8 zooms I had to shoot my daughters at indoor sports.

Before Canon brought out their Canon 6D and Nikon brought out the Nikon D600, it seemed like something that would not happen for me.

But when Canon and Nikon brought out their lower end FF cameras, it at least became a possibility for me.

An entry way into their FF system.

So now, I have a Nikon D750.

But I also still have my dad's old manual focus lenses I'd like to start using again.

And . . . the memory of how fun it was to shoot that old Pentax K1000.

Oh, yeah . . . and the idea of getting three generations shooting on my dad's old Pentax lenses.

My dad shot with them. I did for a time. And my oldest daughter just finished a photography course at school last year where she used one of our Pentax ist DS cameras, and besides the kit lens, she used one of the old Pentax manual focus lenses. A Pentax-A 50mm f/2 lens that was my dad's.

So . . . starting to go on a third generation with these lenses.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

-- hide signature --
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flektogon
flektogon Veteran Member • Posts: 3,958
Re: Some mirrorless options for Pentax
1

Barry Pearson wrote:

flektogon wrote:

OK., the simplest answer why I would like to have a FF Pentax camera is, that for example my Pentax-A 35-105 lens would be really 35 to 105mm zoom lens, not something like 52-156mm lens. The IQ of my APS-C camera is more than adequate. So, a smaller, cheaper, though only 24Mp FF Pentax DSLR camera is everything what I want.

So you want Ricoh/Pentax to expend significant development resources to release a cheap (low margin) camera so that you can use old lenses that bring in no new revenues to Ricoh/Pentax?

Could you make a plausible business case to Ricoh/Pentax management about why that would be a good return on investment?

Well I, just like you, have expressed my opinion about which way Pentax could go. So, they could try to enter the MILC (with a new lens mount) business, but in my opinion thy don't have any such resources. They could continue with the current DSLR cameras design, and here I suggested something what not only I would be interested in. But very likely they'll select the third option: not to do anything

TacticDesigns
TacticDesigns Veteran Member • Posts: 6,297
Re: To play the devil's advocate . . . time for another FF dSLR?

Fogel70 wrote:

TacticDesigns wrote:

...

Keep bring out a new K-1 for users to upgrade to the new model?

Maybe at that point in time it would make sense to open up to net to invite more people into the family.

Lower end stuff may come in the future, but right now the whole camera industry seems to be about selling higher end stuff as it is where most profits are. Most of the lower end has very little profit or have been completely killed by smartphones.

That does seem to be the push.

Maybe that is kinda short term thinking?

Where do the new users come from?

What if there was a digital successor to the Pentax K1000?

Every Pentax DSLR has in some way been a successor to K1000. But camerass today are much cheaper than they where 40 years ago. When K1000 was released it did cost $300 with a 55/2 kit lens, which is over $1300 in todays value.

So it is about the same price range as for KP with 18-135mm kit lens.

I guess one way to look at it was that the K1000 was the entry-level camera.

But . . . it inherited a lot from the Spotmatic series, which in its day was a high end camera!

So . . . maybe just do a trickle down process again.

This happens all the time, basically on every new released camera.

When the Pentax K-1 III comes out, let some of the Pentax K-1 features trickle down into a more entry-level body for new users to try out the Pentax eco-system?

But a FF sensor.

Before a budget FF DSLR will come, alot more budget FF lenses has to be released. Before that happen, Pentax low budget will belong to APS-C.

I already have a Pentax APS-C dSLR. I don't need another one.

Actually . . . I currently have 3 Pentax APS-C dSLR cameras.

Two Nikon APS-C dSLR cameras.

And a Nikon FF dSLR camera.

I'm not interested in another APS-C dSLR.

I think I'm saturated with APS-C dSLR cameras. LOL.

Pentax K1 II is already among the cheaper FF cameras on the market. It is mainly older FF cameras released many years ago that are sold cheaper.

But too rich for my blood.

It wouldn't be my main camera.

And the Pentax K-1 is such a nice camera, it is complete overkill for what I would want to do with it! LOL.

Take care & Happy Shooting!

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