New PEN F Mini

How many would buy a new (hypothetical) PEN F Mini if it would be similar as the current PEN F but in size of a E-PM2? Offer the dual dials, front knob, integrated small EVF, tilting LCD, 2 Fn buttons and maybe, a small Mode dial?

Actually more like a Nikon 1 V3 combined with a cancelled DL.

Or maybe no integrated EVF like GM5 had, but more like what Nikon planned for their cancelled DL line?

So if you wanted to use a eye level viewfinder (a tilting one!) you would attach it to it, like VF2 or VF4 from Olympus. You could get a three VF1 kind optical ones for a 17mm, 25mm and 45mm fixed focal length lenses too for street photography.

The body would be tiny and use the E-M10 battery, use MicroSD dual slots,

But point being make it very small, E-PM2/GM5/Nikon 1 J1 size with good big dials, art knob and so on.

An add on viewfinder is OK for occasional use, but for more extensive use you really want the viewfinder built in. My GX1 is compact without the viewfinder fitted, but otherwise there is the annoyance of adding/removing it or the awkward shape for packing purposes if you leave it fitted.

Tommi K1 wrote:

How many would buy a new (hypothetical) PEN F Mini if it would be similar as the current PEN F but in size of a E-PM2? Offer the dual dials, front knob, integrated small EVF, tilting LCD, 2 Fn buttons and maybe, a small Mode dial?

Actually more like a Nikon 1 V3 combined with a cancelled DL.

I would, but only if they could make it waterproof for snorkling, like Nikon AW1, even if without viewfinder.

How many would buy a new (hypothetical) PEN F Mini if it would be similar as the current PEN F but in size of a E-PM2? Offer the dual dials, front knob, integrated small EVF, tilting LCD, 2 Fn buttons and maybe, a small Mode dial?

[....]

But point being make it very small, E-PM2/GM5/Nikon 1 J1 size with good big dials, art knob and so on.

So, basically an LX100 II with interchangeable lens and flip screen?  The LX100 II has the size and controls right.

Size comparison: LX100 II vs PEN-F.  Source: https://camerasize.com/compact/#793,654,ha,f

It seems like a truly small mFT camera with EVF and good controls is something that would be possible if Olympus or Panasonic wanted to try one.  I don't consider the PEN-F or GX9 to be small.  They are compact, but not tiny like the PM-series, GM-series, or GF/GX###-series.  To me, it seems like there is room for a tiny "enthusiast" camera.

For example:

Combine a GM5 (good controls) with a GX850 (flipscreen), then add in the modern Panasonic processing engine (4K, better color profiles, etc) and a better EVF and you basically have a LX100 II with flip screen and interchangeable lens.

I think it can be done and I would welcome PEN-F mini or new GM-ish camera with flipscreen.

I'm waiting since Oct 17, 2013 for a GM1 Mark II, GM5 Mark II or Pen-F Mini.

For obvious reasons microfourthirds should offer such a camera.

mft would be the perfect platform for a premium street-, travel- and hiking-camera.

But unfortunately this is not gonna happen as long as the Panasonic & Olympus managers stick to their odd strategy: small = entry level .

joerg bergmann wrote:

I'm waiting since Oct 17, 2013 for a GM1 Mark II, GM5 Mark II or Pen-F Mini.

For obvious reasons microfourthirds should offer such a camera.

mft would be the perfect platform for a premium street-, travel- and hiking-camera.

But unfortunately this is not gonna happen as long as the Panasonic & Olympus managers stick to their odd strategy: small = entry level .

You mean the odd strategy of eliminating lines that don't sell well, and don't make a profit ?

For whatever reason, the enthusiasm of DPR forums for the models you mention (and the GF1) haven't translated into commercial success.

jdu_sg wrote:

joerg bergmann wrote:

I'm waiting since Oct 17, 2013 for a GM1 Mark II, GM5 Mark II or Pen-F Mini.

For obvious reasons microfourthirds should offer such a camera.

mft would be the perfect platform for a premium street-, travel- and hiking-camera.

But unfortunately this is not gonna happen as long as the Panasonic & Olympus managers stick to their odd strategy: small = entry level .

You mean the odd strategy of eliminating lines that don't sell well, and don't make a profit ?

For whatever reason, the enthusiasm of DPR forums for the models you mention (and the GF1) haven't translated into commercial success.

The GM line didn't sell well because they asked premium prices but omitted premium features. That doesn't work. Easy to understand.

You're right about the lines which don't sell well. As many others did, I bought our PM2 at a huge discount, due to its lackluster sales in the market. My wife loves that little camera, despite its shortcomings (no dials and a finicky rear controller), but apparently few others did.

By the way, when I bought a Pen F, I thought she'd like that, too. Nope.

joerg bergmann wrote:

jdu_sg wrote:

joerg bergmann wrote:

I'm waiting since Oct 17, 2013 for a GM1 Mark II, GM5 Mark II or Pen-F Mini.

For obvious reasons microfourthirds should offer such a camera.

mft would be the perfect platform for a premium street-, travel- and hiking-camera.

But unfortunately this is not gonna happen as long as the Panasonic & Olympus managers stick to their odd strategy: small = entry level .

You mean the odd strategy of eliminating lines that don't sell well, and don't make a profit ?

For whatever reason, the enthusiasm of DPR forums for the models you mention (and the GF1) haven't translated into commercial success.

The GM line didn't sell well because they asked premium prices but omitted premium features. That doesn't work. Easy to understand.

Thanks for demonstrating the problem. Even though those are the models that you list as desirable because they are not "entry level", you balk at the price and justify that by saying they are not premium (which seems like a contradiction).

"Premium" is a personal assesment, but really you are saying "not worth the cost". Enough people made that assesment of those models (not just the GM line) that they are not sellable.

And you imply, without justification, that Panasonic based their pricing on something other than production costs. More features = More cost.

joerg bergmann wrote:

The GM line didn't sell well because they asked premium prices but omitted premium features. That doesn't work. Easy to understand.

And it's hard to understand that it's not possible to pack premium features in a miniature body for anything less than a premium price?

You should "thank" your fellow photographers who are not buying small premium cameras, not blame Olympus or Panasonic for not making them.

jdu_sg wrote:

joerg bergmann wrote:

jdu_sg wrote:

joerg bergmann wrote:

I'm waiting since Oct 17, 2013 for a GM1 Mark II, GM5 Mark II or Pen-F Mini.

For obvious reasons microfourthirds should offer such a camera.

mft would be the perfect platform for a premium street-, travel- and hiking-camera.

But unfortunately this is not gonna happen as long as the Panasonic & Olympus managers stick to their odd strategy: small = entry level .

You mean the odd strategy of eliminating lines that don't sell well, and don't make a profit ?

For whatever reason, the enthusiasm of DPR forums for the models you mention (and the GF1) haven't translated into commercial success.

The GM line didn't sell well because they asked premium prices but omitted premium features. That doesn't work. Easy to understand.

Thanks for demonstrating the problem. Even though those are the models that you list as desirable because they are not "entry level", you balk at the price and justify that by saying they are not premium (which seems like a contradiction).

"Premium" is a personal assesment, but really you are saying "not worth the cost". Enough people made that assesment of those models (not just the GM line) that they are not sellable.

And you imply, without justification, that Panasonic based their pricing on something other than production costs. More features = More cost.

Not sure what you mean by "balk at the price". I don't have any problem with the premium price, i have a problem with the flaws of the GM. I never said they are not worth the cost. I even bought one. You completely misunterstood me.

Panasonic never gave the GM line a chance to get rid of its initial flaws (i.e. the fixed screen and the crappy rear dial). That's what prevented GM cameras from being successful.

Imagine they would offer the G9 with a fixed screen, awkward dials and a tiny evf. Would it sell well?

Okapi001 wrote:

joerg bergmann wrote:

The GM line didn't sell well because they asked premium prices but omitted premium features. That doesn't work. Easy to understand.

And it's hard to understand that it's not possible to pack premium features in a miniature body for anything less than a premium price?

Nonsense. Panasonic and Olympus have already proven that it is possible. Just look at the superb controls of the LX100. The PEN-F viewfinder and controls are brilliant, too and could be easily packed into a smaller body. Both companies just have missed to put these pieces together into a small premium ILC.

You should "thank" your fellow photographers who are not buying small premium cameras, not blame Olympus or Panasonic for not making them.

You are a funny guy. I like you.

With the demise of GM series, I would take almost anything and probably accept the limitations and compromises.

Few notes:

• Must have a hot-shoe, otherwise it's not a serious camera (don't care about built-in flash)
• Should be bundled with FL-LM3 flash - I used it with GM5, it was an amazing combo
• The problem with external EVF is that it will take up the hot-shoe - so I'd rather have integrated EVF. Also, external EVFs tend to be super ugly and big (although Leica made it fit their camera, so maybe Olympus could as well). But an external EVF would not necessarily be a deal breaker for me.
• EVF positioned in the corner - this works much better with tiny cameras and allows for AF touch-pad control. Again, something that works amazingly well on GM5 and makes it ergonomically superior to something like E-M10.

We can dream, can't we?

Funny how you used 2 images of Nikons in your post.

A Pen-F Mini.... if it looked like the camera in the 2nd image you posted, then NO, I would NEVER buy a Pen-F Mini. It would be as much a gigantic ugly piece of junk as the one you posted.

But how Mini do people want now? Geez.

Yes.  If it is the size of a Sony RX100.