RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS

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elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,650
RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS
2

new capabilities, new owners, lets talk focus for STILLS here, (video in separate thread).

New Sensor with many small PD (phase detect) pixel groups, combines with CD (contrast detect) AF Sensor and processor brains
different models have different options and/or different names for similar options)

I'll start an outline

I suggest we first fix the outline with whatever I omitted
Then after outline fixed, clarify each option

METHODS

AF-S
AF-C
AF Face Detect
AF-Eye Detect
AF-Tracking (you 1st assign a subject to track)
MF (you do it all with front ring)
DMF (AF as normal at half press) then, optionally refine distance Manually with front ring)

FOCUS AREAS SIZES, and, ability to MOVE some area anywhere in the frame

Full Frame
note: PD pixel groups on sensor located on most but not entire full frame
Center Area Size, always centered
Cluster of Pixel Groups, Moveable, similar in size to center or expanded spot.
Spot, Moveable, spot size choices
Spot, Expandable (af system expands the spot if it thinks needed

I think you need to use AF-C for the AF system to use the PD pixel clusters.

EXPOSURE AREA SIZES (similar and inter-active with Focus Area Sizes)

SHOOTING MODES

Single Shot
Continuous Shooting (use AF-C) (Camera may automatically switch to AF-C from AF-S, not sure)
Continuous for Stills (avoid shutter press shake, avoid blinking eyes, ...)
Continuous for Motion, BIF (bird in flight, the ultimate need)
Individual Focus and Individual Exposure, for EACH shot using Continuous Shooting
Speed Continuous, 1st shot sets both focus and exposure, the fastest, (subject can move sideways, keep front to back distance)
Speed choices, 24 or 10, or 3 FPS (frames per second) continuous shooting.
Bracketing
Bracketing with Self-Timer
Self-Timer

thanks ahead of time for contributions from others

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Elliott

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 41,841
Re: RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS
2

After trying all the modes I've found that Lock on Expand Flexible Spot works best for me. I use it 95% of the time with the only exception being close up photography with a busy scene, bees in a flowering bush for example, where DMF or MF works best.

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Tom
Look at the picture, not the pixels

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,650
Re: RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS

tbcass wrote:

After trying all the modes I've found that Lock on Expand Flexible Spot works best for me. I use it 95% of the time with the only exception being close up photography with a busy scene, bees in a flowering bush for example, where DMF or MF works best.

Thanks Tom. I never used that method,

is one a focus method and the other an focus area size choice?

Would you please give us a bit more about this, how to find/setup choices in menu, what Expand Spot is compared to selecting spot size s,m,l ... Does camera expand the spot for you if it thinks needed?

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Elliott

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 41,841
Re: RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS

elliottnewcomb wrote:

tbcass wrote:

After trying all the modes I've found that Lock on Expand Flexible Spot works best for me. I use it 95% of the time with the only exception being close up photography with a busy scene, bees in a flowering bush for example, where DMF or MF works best.

Thanks Tom. I never used that method,

is one a focus method and the other an focus area size choice?

Would you please give us a bit more about this, how to find/setup choices in menu, what Expand Spot is compared to selecting spot size s,m,l ... Does camera expand the spot for you if it thinks needed?

It's a focus mode I use with my RX10iv with it's PDAF points. I don't think it's available on the cameras you have.

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Tom
Look at the picture, not the pixels

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,650
Re: RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS
1

RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS

rx100m6 Sony Help Guide, Page 69.

Gary Friedman video about a99 focus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CZEb40atbo&feature=youtu.be

..............................

new capabilities, new owners, lets talk focus for STILLS here, (video in separate thread).
different models have different options and/or different names for similar options

PDCD AF SYSTEM
New Sensor with many small PD pixel groups (phase detect), combines with CD (contrast detect) and processor brains.
PD pixel groups on sensor located on most but not entire full frame. Option to show the PD area on LCD/EVF exists

SOMEONE CLARIFY: I think you need to use AF-C Focus Method for the AF system to use the PD pixel clusters.

AF System finds VERTICAL EDGES best.

You can or may need to help AF system find your subject.
Tell it WHERE, and HOW to look.

FOCUS IS DISTANCE, NOTHING MORE.
YOUR SUBJECTS DISTANCE?
STATIONARY or MOVING SUBJECT?

METHODS TO LOCATE YOUR SUBJECT: You can pick various area sizes and area locations, more below

METHODS TO GET THE CORRECT DISTANCE (using your chosen area size and area location)

AF-S (single)
half-press seeks/locks and holds focus distance once: shoot, re-frame and shoot; wait until subject ready
(breeze dies down, bird turns it's head, baby opens it's eyes, burps a smile)

AF-C (continuous)
half-press starts repeated/CONTINUOUSLY UPDATED seek of focus distance, in your focus area.
Not tracking, best for front to back movement, not for sideways movement.
you must keep your focus box on your subject (panning). Finish whenever.

AF-A (camera determines if/when to switch to AF-C from AF-S vice-versa automatically)

AF Face Detect. Using Wide Area, camera preferentially seeks the closest object, unless you use Face Detection, then a face is the 1st preference.
In other area sizes, center, zone, it seeks faces within those areas also.

AF-Eye Detect, like face detect except eyes automatically sought.

AF-Tracking (you 1st assign a subject to track), then it tracks/follows that subject as it/you/both move, it is simply an automatically moving spot (once you assign it to something). Focus distance is not set until the shot is taken. Various names/methods different models.

DMF (AF as normal at half press) then, optionally refine distance Manually with front ring. (faster than MF)

MF (you do it all with front ring)
MF manual focus system helps by using focus magnification and focus peaking.
Magnification: activate focus magnification, set no time limit of magnification.
Peaking: (shows colored lines on vertical edges of items in focus)(you pick peaking color, you pick peaking strength)
I use Yellow, Low with my rx100's, RED, medium with my RX1r
Note: Peaking is to be used while magnified, ignore it when you return to normal framing view, just confirm framing.
Note: When magnified, press center button, which has automatically become a magnification toggle.
It further magnifies, double the initial magnification. press again, toggles back to initial magnification)

MF: turn front ring, magnification happens, and peaking happens. turn the front ring in/out,
watch both your subject, and the peaking, it will show you exactly where focus distance is, you refine with front ring.
wait, while magnified, see subject magnified, refine if needed, shoot when ready.
half-press takes you out of magnication, back to normal framing view, focus distance is held, peaking is a mess, just confirm framing.
Turn camera off, back on, if left in MF, focus distance is where you left it.
i.e. tripod or steady hand aperture variations of a subject: A mode, set MF once, shoot, change a, shoot, no need to re-focus.
i.e. bob and weave with a subject: focused on a bee, it moves to a nearby flower. don't turn front ring,
just lean/step in/out with the bee, see the peaking lose/catch the bee, shoot. same with a singer at a mic, etc.

DMF: Half-Press sets focus like AF-S.
Option 1: finish the shot, no manual refinement
Option 2: refine focus distance using MF front ring. You need to keep the half press while rotating the ring, wait, refine, shoot.
Note: next shot starts in AF-S again, shoot or refine it.
DMF faster or easier than MF because you start with instant AF-S, then only a small rotation of the focus ring needed IF desired.
MF requires much more ring rotation. MF can hold a refined distance for next shot, DMF cannot.

FOCUS AREAS SIZES, and, ability to MOVE a focus area anywhere in the frame

Full Frame (multi or wide)(wide prefers closer object, or, if on, face detection becomes preference)
Green box(s) appear at half press, shows what it picked, you confirm it found your subject, or release, aim again, half press again.
note: PD pixel groups on sensor located on most but not entire full frame
Center Area Size, always centered
ZONE. Cluster of Pixel Groups, Moveable.
Spot, Moveable, spot size choices: Small, Medium, Large.
Expandable Spot, Movable (starts spot size, af system expands to area around the spot (if it doesn't find something in the spot)

LOCK-ON AF. Tracking by any other name, Only possible if AF-C focus method is chosen.
what's new? works with any area size and any area location
older system, Center Lock-On, always started with you aiming the center focus box at your subject.
step 1: you tell the camera what to track (assign a subject).
step 2. camera follows that subject as you/subject/both move: sideways/in/out/roll on the ground, whatever
IOW, an automatically moving spot, using AF-C the whole time, updating both location and distance until you shoot.

EXPOSURE AREA SIZES (are similar and inter-active with Focus Area Sizes). You help the auto exposure system know what you want by controlling what and where the metering looks/sees.

SHOOTING MODES

Single Shot
Continuous Shooting (use AF-C) (Camera may automatically switch to AF-C from AF-S for you, not sure, best to select AF-C)
Continuous for Stills (avoid shutter press shake, avoid blinking eyes, ...)
Continuous for Motion, BIF (bird in flight, the ultimate need)
Individual Focus and Individual Exposure, for EACH shot using Continuous Shooting
Speed Continuous, 1st shot sets both focus and exposure, the fastest, (subject can move sideways, must keep front to back distance)
Speed choices, 24 or 10, or 3 FPS (frames per second) continuous shooting.
Bracketing
Bracketing with Self-Timer
Self-Timer

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Elliott

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 41,841
Re: RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS

tbcass wrote:

After trying all the modes I've found that Lock on Expand Flexible Spot works best for me. I use it 95% of the time with the only exception being close up photography with a busy scene, bees in a flowering bush for example, where DMF or MF works best.

Let me expand on that. Expand flexible spot with subject tracking.

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Tom
Look at the picture, not the pixels

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,650
Re: RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS

So, is this right?

1. Focus type: AF-C (needed to use Lock On method)

2. Focus Area: Expand Flexible Spot. starts centered, can move anywhere

3. Use Lock-On AF method.

At half press it starts tracking anything that was in the expanded spot. It follows that if it moves. It uses AF-C continuous focus distance in the moving box area while tracking, you finish the shot when desired.

Correct?

What I am not clear on, is how you start Lock-On Tracking after choosing AF-C and Expand Flexible Spot Area?

do you need to assign a button for Lock-On Tracking, then press it to start it?

Is it a one shot at a time use, or, once engaged, it stays Lock-On for subsequent shots?

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Elliott

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hwvlover
hwvlover Senior Member • Posts: 3,776
Re: RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS
1

elliottnewcomb wrote:

So, is this right?

1. Focus type: AF-C (needed to use Lock On method)

2. Focus Area: Expand Flexible Spot. starts centered, can move anywhere

3. Use Lock-On AF method.

At half press it starts tracking anything that was in the expanded spot. It follows that if it moves. It uses AF-C continuous focus distance in the moving box area while tracking, you finish the shot when desired.

Correct?

What I am not clear on, is how you start Lock-On Tracking after choosing AF-C and Expand Flexible Spot Area?

do you need to assign a button for Lock-On Tracking, then press it to start it?

Is it a one shot at a time use, or, once engaged, it stays Lock-On for subsequent shots?

On the M4 there is a setting in Focus Area called Lock-on AF.....this can be set to various sizes...Wide, Centre, Flexible Spot, S, M and L and Expand Flexible Spot.

At half press (or press if BBF)  it locks on.

Regards,
David
***************************************
Growing old is inevitable; growing up, however, is optional.
And I have opted out.

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,650
Re: RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS

hwvlover wrote:

elliottnewcomb wrote:

So, is this right?

1. Focus type: AF-C (needed to use Lock On method)

2. Focus Area: Expand Flexible Spot. starts centered, can move anywhere

3. Use Lock-On AF method.

At half press it starts tracking anything that was in the expanded spot. It follows that if it moves. It uses AF-C continuous focus distance in the moving box area while tracking, you finish the shot when desired.

Correct?

What I am not clear on, is how you start Lock-On Tracking after choosing AF-C and Expand Flexible Spot Area?

do you need to assign a button for Lock-On Tracking, then press it to start it?

Is it a one shot at a time use, or, once engaged, it stays Lock-On for subsequent shots?

On the M4 there is a setting in Focus Area called Lock-on AF.....this can be set to various sizes...Wide, Centre, Flexible Spot, S, M and L and Expand Flexible Spot.

At half press (or press if BBF) it locks on.

Regards,
David
***************************************
Growing old is inevitable; growing up, however, is optional.
And I have opted out.

Thanks, now I understand what Sony has done.

In with Focus Area Sizes, they have placed a Focus Method (Lock-ON), and, within that Lock-On Method, you have many area choices (same as other area choices you pick separately). And then they have made a new method (turn control wheel) to change the size of the flexible spot.

from pg 69 sony's help guide (my emphasis)

"Lock-on AF :
When the shutter button is pressed and held halfway down, the product tracks the subject within the selected autofocus area. This setting is available only when the focus mode is set to [Continuous AF]. Point the cursor at [Lock-on AF] on the [Focus Area] setting screen, and then select the desired area to start tracking using the left/right sides of the control wheel. You can also move the tracking start area to the desired point by designating the area as a zone, flexible spot or expand flexible spot. On the Flexible Spot shooting screen, you can change the size of the focusing frame by turning the
control wheel."

...........................................

Note: by doing this, they changed the default of the rear center button to EYE AF (previously Center Lock-On).

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 41,841
Re: RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS
1

elliottnewcomb wrote:

So, is this right?

1. Focus type: AF-C (needed to use Lock On method)

2. Focus Area: Expand Flexible Spot. starts centered, can move anywhere

3. Use Lock-On AF method.

At half press it starts tracking anything that was in the expanded spot. It follows that if it moves. It uses AF-C continuous focus distance in the moving box area while tracking, you finish the shot when desired.

Correct?

What I am not clear on, is how you start Lock-On Tracking after choosing AF-C and Expand Flexible Spot Area?

do you need to assign a button for Lock-On Tracking, then press it to start it?

Is it a one shot at a time use, or, once engaged, it stays Lock-On for subsequent shots?

I activate it by half press of the shutter button but you can assign it to another button. Nothing more needs to be done. I aim at the target with the very center focal point and half press the shutter. The camera identifies the target and expands the focal area to several points on the target. While keeping the shutter button half pressed the camera will then follow that target anywhere around the screen area other than the very edges. The way the camera follows the target around the screen is nothing short of miraculous to me and it seldom fails. It's also great for focus and recompose because if the target is stationary and you move the camera the focus points stay on target.

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Tom
Look at the picture, not the pixels

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 41,841
Re: RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS

I uses the smallest possible initial spot because it's the most accurate and once locked on it expands to cover a larger portion of the target.

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Tom
Look at the picture, not the pixels

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,650
Re: RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS

Could someone explain use of Eye AF? thanks

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Elliott

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hwvlover
hwvlover Senior Member • Posts: 3,776
Re: RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS
1

elliottnewcomb wrote:

Could someone explain use of Eye AF? thanks

This might help.  I don't have any link to this chap by the way, I just find his videos helpful.
Regards,
David
***************************************
Growing old is inevitable; growing up, however, is optional.
And I have opted out.

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 41,841
Re: RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS

elliottnewcomb wrote:

Could someone explain use of Eye AF? thanks

For people photography it is generally accepted that one or both eyes should be in focus. Eye AF insures that the camera will focus on the eyes.

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Tom
Look at the picture, not the pixels

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,650
Re: RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS

Thanks, he is good, does he have a home page somewhere?

It seems you have to press and hold the rear center button (whatever button you have set for Eye-AF), keep  holding it and press the shutter button. It leaves Eye AF when you release the button, correct?

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Elliott

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 41,841
Re: RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS

elliottnewcomb wrote:

Thanks, he is good, does he have a home page somewhere?

It seems you have to press and hold the rear center button (whatever button you have set for Eye-AF), keep holding it and press the shutter button. It leaves Eye AF when you release the button, correct?

If you have to hold a button for Eye AF while pushing the shutter button limits it's convenience IMO. I would rather it be push on, push off.

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Tom
Look at the picture, not the pixels

 tbcass's gear list:tbcass's gear list
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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,650
Re: RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS

tbcass wrote:

elliottnewcomb wrote:

Thanks, he is good, does he have a home page somewhere?

It seems you have to press and hold the rear center button (whatever button you have set for Eye-AF), keep holding it and press the shutter button. It leaves Eye AF when you release the button, correct?

If you have to hold a button for Eye AF while pushing the shutter button limits it's convenience IMO. I would rather it be push on, push off.

I much prefer Toggle rather than Hold. In the video, he demonstrates EYE-AF, and it seems he needs to hold the button.

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Elliott

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tbcass
tbcass Forum Pro • Posts: 41,841
Re: RX10's and rx100's, Focus System's, STILLS

elliottnewcomb wrote:

tbcass wrote:

elliottnewcomb wrote:

Thanks, he is good, does he have a home page somewhere?

It seems you have to press and hold the rear center button (whatever button you have set for Eye-AF), keep holding it and press the shutter button. It leaves Eye AF when you release the button, correct?

If you have to hold a button for Eye AF while pushing the shutter button limits it's convenience IMO. I would rather it be push on, push off.

I much prefer Toggle rather than Hold. In the video, he demonstrates EYE-AF, and it seems he needs to hold the button.

Too bad. That's why I don't use back button focus. I much prefer half press of the shutter. I have never used Eye AF. I wonder if it can be engaged with half press of shutter.

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Tom
Look at the picture, not the pixels

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