3rd party ink/canon pro 2000/4000/6000

Started Jul 8, 2018 | Questions
angelsmoke New Member • Posts: 22
3rd party ink/canon pro 2000/4000/6000

Was wondering who those who use 3rd party ink ,how do you go about tricking the printer into seeing them.I was thinking to use compatible ink on a Canon pro 2000 and have heard of two ways to do it.
1st way is to buy prefilled ink cartridges and exchange them each time they are used up.
2nd way is to refill the existing cartridges and disable the chip metering.
Obviously the 1st way is more expensive but is the 2nd reliable? (assuming we have a good ink source ).

Is there anyone using the 2nd method and if so have you had any problems?
Thank you

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DotCom Editor Veteran Member • Posts: 7,648
Re: 3rd party ink/canon pro 2000/4000/6000
2

angelsmoke wrote:

Was wondering who those who use 3rd party ink ,how do you go about tricking the printer into seeing them.I was thinking to use compatible ink on a Canon pro 2000 and have heard of two ways to do it.
1st way is to buy prefilled ink cartridges and exchange them each time they are used up.
2nd way is to refill the existing cartridges and disable the chip metering.
Obviously the 1st way is more expensive but is the 2nd reliable? (assuming we have a good ink source ).

Is there anyone using the 2nd method and if so have you had any problems?
Thank you

As I said in the other thread, I would never, ever, ever use off-brand ink in an expensive, wide-format printer:

Pro 2000 as in the new 24-inch ImagePROGRAF PRO-2000?

I own the 44-inch PRO-4000. After investing so much in the printer, the last thing I would ever do is use non-OEM ink. I don't understand the economics of trying to save a few dollars/pounds/euros. I don't understand why anyone with an expensive wide-format device would jeopardize the quality and lightfastness of printed output. There's also no guarantee of absolute consistency from one load of ink to the next. And, this all requires making new custom ICC profiles, perhaps even as often as each time a cartridge is reloaded.

While this approach may work for you, the longevity of prints I produce and of my reputation are paramount. For me, I would never, ever, ever use off-brand ink. Nevertheless, I respect your decision and wish you very good success doing so.

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OP angelsmoke New Member • Posts: 22
Re: 3rd party ink/canon pro 2000/4000/6000

The reason I'm thinking about 3rd party ink is due to the market I sell to which is extremely competitive so prices don't allow me to use OEM.
I wish I could use OEM but doing so would cost me the price of the printer at least once or twice a year I'd be paying for it again! I bought it for a bit over 2000€ and inks cost 300x12 = 3.600€ and I'm sure I'd need more than that much ink each year.
I wish I was in another industry but I'm not and no one is willing to pay more for prints that would last more,or were of better quality /value. All they want is efficiency and to resell them X 1-4 times up the price.The only one who'd want to use OEM ink is me!
I've had an Epson 17" printer working on 3rd party ink for the past 7 years and it's still going strong, I hope that would be the case with the new Canon ..

I appreciate your reply and wish that was the case for me but it's not substanable unfortunately.

DotCom Editor Veteran Member • Posts: 7,648
Re: 3rd party ink/canon pro 2000/4000/6000
1

angelsmoke wrote:

The reason I'm thinking about 3rd party ink is due to the market I sell to which is extremely competitive so prices don't allow me to use OEM.

The question then, that I would be asking myself, is whether this is a market into which I would want to sell at all. For you, the answer appears to be yes. For me, the answer would likely be no.

Perhaps you should consider dye-sublimation technology as an alternative to inkjet.

However, consider some OEM ink math. I've taken the U.S. B&H retail selling price and divided by the cartridge capacity in ml to derive the price per ml. I then converted that to euros.

Epson 3880 80 ml catridge = $0.687 per ml (0.58€)
Canon PRO-2000/4000/6000 160 ml cartridge = $0.606 per ml (0.52€)
Canon PRO-2000/4000/6000 330 ml cartridge = $0.524 per ml (0.45€)
Canon PRO-2000/4000/6000 700 ml cartridge = $0.420 per ml (0.36€)

I'd suggest that the Canon, even with OEM ink, is already a bargain to operate compared with the Epson 3880, which I'm using only for illustration purposes.

I fully understand that everyone's situation is different; I can relate only my own. As I noted before, I do hope it all goes well for you and that you enjoy great success.

I wish I could use OEM but doing so would cost me the price of the printer at least once or twice a year I'd be paying for it again! I bought it for a bit over 2000€ and inks cost 300x12 = 3.600€ and I'm sure I'd need more than that much ink each year.
I wish I was in another industry but I'm not and no one is willing to pay more for prints that would last more,or were of better quality /value. All they want is efficiency and to resell them X 1-4 times up the price.The only one who'd want to use OEM ink is me!
I've had an Epson 17" printer working on 3rd party ink for the past 7 years and it's still going strong, I hope that would be the case with the new Canon ..

I appreciate your reply and wish that was the case for me but it's not substanable unfortunately.

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Mark McCormick Senior Member • Posts: 1,534
Re: 3rd party ink/canon pro 2000/4000/6000

angelsmoke wrote:

The reason I'm thinking about 3rd party ink is due to the market I sell to which is extremely competitive so prices don't allow me to use OEM.

I'm not sure I understand. Can you please describe your market competition more clearly?

If high volume photofinishing or low cost litho prints for posters is your market competition, then the Pro2000 was never the right printer to compete, third party ink or not. The print speed is too slow, and your labor costs will be too high to service that market even if your materials cost next to nothing. The Pro-xxxx series is for the high end photography and fine art print market. That market can easily accommodate the cost of OEM ink. Even with OEM ink and the finest inkjet media, the framing/finishing costs will still outdo the cost of the print.

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Aussie Vixens Photography Forum Member • Posts: 87
Re: 3rd party ink/canon pro 2000/4000/6000

As a owner of a pro 2000 i only use oem inks and will never use 3rd party as i use it to print for sale.

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OP angelsmoke New Member • Posts: 22
Re: 3rd party ink/canon pro 2000/4000/6000
2

I understand your point of view however
I print copies of art to the touristic industry.I sell wholesale so prices go up multiple times by the time a tourist buys them.And competitors of course are Chinese and a few companies from here.
I was told dye wouldn't last at all with any exposure to the sun which is something I don't want.
As a photographer I wish I could sell pieces of art or even a nice portfolio of a wedding but every person I know has closed their shop while trying to do so.Folks can't afford basic needs,they aren't going to pay as much as they would pay you guys because they don't make as much.Also it's a cultural phenomenon.
Art may thrive during difficult times,yet appreciation for it comes when people have solved their basic needs..

Richard MRH
Richard MRH Junior Member • Posts: 31
Re: 3rd party ink/canon pro 2000/4000/6000
2

Hi Angelsmoke,

I am in the fine art printing game and use Canon Pro4000 and Canon ipf5100 for production. Both with Canon inks. I would NEVER use them with some 3rd party ink. Everything is printed at the highest setting.

Anyway, one of the artists I print for has 8.5"x12.5" image size prints that have a 1.5" border each side in addition to the image size.

I use Fotospeed Platinum Etching paper for him.

It costs me £0.99 to print each one. Of that cost, approx £0.23 is ink cost. I sell these prints to the artist for £5.16 each and he then sells them in his outlet for £34 mounted or £46 mounted & framed. He sells loads of this size print.

Note, all above prices are excluding UK VAT which adds 20% on to them.

Rather than trying, and possibly failing, to do everything on the cheap you may be better off trying to educate your clients to the benifits of having superior prints made using superior quality materials that are designed to last many many years. Get the artists to showcase that fact that you only use Acid free papers with OEM inks so that the product they are selling is second to non.

If however, you do wish to do it all on the cheap, go the whole hog and use 3rd party inks, but also buy the cheapes crappy paper you can find to save a few more pennies.

Bear in mind  though that your reputation as a printer is riding 100% on the products you produce not how good you may think you are but can't convey in the product.

OP angelsmoke New Member • Posts: 22
Re: 3rd party ink/canon pro 2000/4000/6000

Ok I think you have understood something wrong.im not a printer shop and secondly the customers I sell to are wholesale. They don't care whatsoever how good or bad products are or how long they will last.
We are not in the same industry and not in the same country.
I however am looking into buying the 700ml ink that lowers cost but I'm still going to be giving all the profit to inks.
Btw I never said I think I'm good or not, I'm just trying to survive..
People here live on a budget of 300€ a month they could care less about my high quality products!

osu
osu Regular Member • Posts: 378
Re: 3rd party ink/canon pro 2000/4000/6000

angelsmoke wrote:

Ok I think you have understood something wrong.im not a printer shop and secondly the customers I sell to are wholesale. They don't care whatsoever how good or bad products are or how long they will last.
We are not in the same industry and not in the same country.
I however am looking into buying the 700ml ink that lowers cost but I'm still going to be giving all the profit to inks.
Btw I never said I think I'm good or not, I'm just trying to survive..
People here live on a budget of 300€ a month they could care less about my high quality products!

As others have noted, 3rd party ink in a wide format printer is a very limited use case. In fact so limited that there is not going to be a lot of good data to support the experience or make a recommendation. Nearly everyone buying a high end wide format photographic printer is getting it to produce high quality prints/art using high quality paper and  ink. So, if you have convinced yourself that you need to cut costs on the ink to compete I'd look at refillable cartridges and bulk ink from either OCP or Inktec which are both widely available in the EU and the cost per ml goes down the more ink you purchase by volume. Both offer decent quality on matte paper but you need to be selective on glossy or luster paper because of gloss differential and bronzing. I've run the OCP K3 ink in my 3880 for 6 years with no issues at all. I had to do custom profiles for this ink as will you, so factor that into your business costs. I would never try to pass off anything done on the 3880 with OCP ink for sale. The 3880 is largely for proofing and things like invites on card stock. I also own an HP z3200ps 44" that I use to produce all the artwork that I do sell. I only use OEM ink and high end paper on that printer.

My advise, go do some research on OCP and Inktec and decide which one works best for you. Then get some refillable cartridges or a CIS and start printing. That should be pretty straightforward

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OP angelsmoke New Member • Posts: 22
Re: 3rd party ink/canon pro 2000/4000/6000

Thank you very much for the recommendations, I'll look into it asap.
Guys I hope I've made it clear that I wish I could use OEM but I'm not a printer shop and I'd never sell to a photographer or take on a job for prints.
My work is little memories of places so tourists or folks here can take something affordable back home.They aren't willing to pay a lot of money, plus the people I sell to make all tge profit by selling x3-4 up the price.
I calibrate my monitor and Ive read the canon 2000 Ive ordered can make profiles for each paper.
Im waiting for it to see how that works..
Why did you said it's costly to make a profile?

Califmike33 New Member • Posts: 15
Re: 3rd party ink/canon pro 2000/4000/6000
1

Old thread yeah i see, but there is NOTHING WRONG WITH 3RD party inks, there are a few good brands only a few that you wont see a bit of change how it looks or last.  Dont tell me otherwise i have used them alot and there top notch.  Canon ink prices make it almost non profitable to print.

NAwlins Contrarian Veteran Member • Posts: 6,450
Disagree based on fade-resistance

Old thread yeah i see, but there is NOTHING WRONG WITH 3RD party inks, there are a few good brands only a few that you wont see a bit of change how it looks or last. Dont tell me otherwise i have used them alot and there top notch. Canon ink prices make it almost non profitable to print.

AFAIK, in real scientific testing like Aardenburg's or Wilhelm's, no third-party ink for an inkjet photo printer, pigment- or dye-based, has ever tested out anywhere near as fade-resistant as the corresponding OEM (i.e., Epson, Canon, or HP) ink. For that reason, the claim that "there is NOTHING WRONG WITH 3RD party inks" has been shown many times to be false. Insofar as all tested third-party inks--including some pigment inks from brands widely considered very good around here--have shown far worse fade resistance, at this point the burden is on anyone making such a claim to show otherwise with real scientific testing (e.g. not, 'I taped it to my window for six months').

Are some third-party inks comparably good in areas other than fade-resistance? Maybe, but in addition to fade-resistance, consideration should be given to at least:

* how well the colors match OEM inks (or alternatively, I suppose, that the gamut exceeds the OEM inks' gamut);

* how well the glossiness matches OEM inks; and

* how well resistance to clogging compares to OEM inks.

Some of those are more readily testable than others.

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DotCom Editor Veteran Member • Posts: 7,648
Re: Disagree based on fade-resistance
1

NAwlins Contrarian wrote:

Old thread yeah i see, but there is NOTHING WRONG WITH 3RD party inks, there are a few good brands only a few that you wont see a bit of change how it looks or last. Dont tell me otherwise i have used them alot and there top notch. Canon ink prices make it almost non profitable to print.

AFAIK, in real scientific testing like Aardenburg's or Wilhelm's, no third-party ink for an inkjet photo printer, pigment- or dye-based, has ever tested out anywhere near as fade-resistant as the corresponding OEM (i.e., Epson, Canon, or HP) ink. For that reason, the claim that "there is NOTHING WRONG WITH 3RD party inks" has been shown many times to be false. Insofar as all tested third-party inks--including some pigment inks from brands widely considered very good around here--have shown far worse fade resistance, at this point the burden is on anyone making such a claim to show otherwise with real scientific testing (e.g. not, 'I taped it to my window for six months').

Are some third-party inks comparably good in areas other than fade-resistance? Maybe, but in addition to fade-resistance, consideration should be given to at least:

* how well the colors match OEM inks (or alternatively, I suppose, that the gamut exceeds the OEM inks' gamut);

* how well the glossiness matches OEM inks; and

* how well resistance to clogging compares to OEM inks.

Some of those are more readily testable than others.

I spent thousands of dollars on my Canon PRO-4000 printer, more on extra spindles, and a whole lot more on high-quality cotton-rag and canvas media. For me, the idea of saving a few dollars by purchasing third-party ink whose longevity cannot be proven is ridiculous.

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Adam2 Veteran Member • Posts: 7,282
Re: Disagree based on fade-resistance
2

DotCom Editor wrote:

NAwlins Contrarian wrote:

Old thread yeah i see, but there is NOTHING WRONG WITH 3RD party inks, there are a few good brands only a few that you wont see a bit of change how it looks or last. Dont tell me otherwise i have used them alot and there top notch. Canon ink prices make it almost non profitable to print.

AFAIK, in real scientific testing like Aardenburg's or Wilhelm's, no third-party ink for an inkjet photo printer, pigment- or dye-based, has ever tested out anywhere near as fade-resistant as the corresponding OEM (i.e., Epson, Canon, or HP) ink. For that reason, the claim that "there is NOTHING WRONG WITH 3RD party inks" has been shown many times to be false. Insofar as all tested third-party inks--including some pigment inks from brands widely considered very good around here--have shown far worse fade resistance, at this point the burden is on anyone making such a claim to show otherwise with real scientific testing (e.g. not, 'I taped it to my window for six months').

Are some third-party inks comparably good in areas other than fade-resistance? Maybe, but in addition to fade-resistance, consideration should be given to at least:

* how well the colors match OEM inks (or alternatively, I suppose, that the gamut exceeds the OEM inks' gamut);

* how well the glossiness matches OEM inks; and

* how well resistance to clogging compares to OEM inks.

Some of those are more readily testable than others.

I spent thousands of dollars on my Canon PRO-4000 printer, more on extra spindles, and a whole lot more on high-quality cotton-rag and canvas media. For me, the idea of saving a few dollars by purchasing third-party ink whose longevity cannot be proven is ridiculous.

A very reasonable alternative is buying slightly out of date cartridges at significant discounts.  Comparatively, the ink is relatively inexpensive and one has the genuine item.  Realistically, I’m not competing against MPIX or Costco and am producing art with my name on it.  The value in 3rd party inks for this purpose isn’t there.

enduser Senior Member • Posts: 1,118
Re: Disagree based on fade-resistance
1

Been using Chinese universal pigment for over two years, no clogging or other defects and widow samples show no observable change compared with HP ink.

DotCom Editor Veteran Member • Posts: 7,648
Re: Disagree based on fade-resistance

enduser wrote:

Been using Chinese universal pigment for over two years, no clogging or other defects and widow samples show no observable change compared with HP ink.

I do feel badly that you are making samples only for widows. That's sad.

How will the color and fade resistance hold up 50 years after you make these prints?

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Petruska Veteran Member • Posts: 9,141
I wish......
2

I'm 71 and would love to see how my prints faded when I'm 121!!!!!

To be honest the "majority" of people out there could care very little about prints anymore, and if they fade or not.....just sign of the times.  If you sell prints then yes give your clients the the best possible longevity.  Around here where I live most people view photo prints hanging on a wall very tacky, paintings are more accepted.

Bob P.

enduser Senior Member • Posts: 1,118
Re: I wish......
1

Don't feel bad about window tests. We use  the sun through glass as a surrogate for hanging in  a well lit room. The constants are: Sun, Glass. But that's not all -comparisons rather than absolutes are the most valuable if a "quick and dirty" result is wanted . (The phrase is well known in the materials testing world.)

Usefulness comes from the term "Comparative". where two or more samples are tested at once, and the way they compare is evaluated. In our case we did a comparison of HP 711  ink with the Chinese version of the same.

Under months of Australian summer west facing light, the Chinese inks did not fade whilst the OEM factory branded ink faded badly.

Mark McCormick Senior Member • Posts: 1,534
Re: I wish......
3

enduser wrote:

Don't feel bad about window tests. We use the sun through glass as a surrogate for hanging in a well lit room. The constants are: Sun, Glass. But that's not all -comparisons rather than absolutes are the most valuable if a "quick and dirty" result is wanted . (The phrase is well known in the materials testing world.)

Usefulness comes from the term "Comparative". where two or more samples are tested at once, and the way they compare is evaluated. In our case we did a comparison of HP 711 ink with the Chinese version of the same.

Under months of Australian summer west facing light, the Chinese inks did not fade whilst the OEM factory branded ink faded badly.

No disagreement about the value of comparative testing. However, it should be understood that in a window fade test cycle, the temperatures at the print surface can soar above 60C at the print surface and severe desiccation occurs during the light cycles, i.e., moisture content in the prints go down to unrealistically low levels. Because the fading of the pigments is a photo-oxidation reaction where moisture and temperature levels should ideally be controlled during both light and dark cycles, an encouraging window test should actually be followed up by more controlled studies before a final conclusion can be confidently drawn. For example, Inks using polymer encapsulation techniques versus inks that don't have them can reverse course under the two differing sets of environmental conditions (i.e., different moisture/desiccation response at typical real world temperature cycling conditions versus  high temperature cyclical conditions in a typical window fade test).

That said, I recently tested a third party pigmented ink set designed for Canon printers under a more controlled test for a private paying client. FWIW, I rarely do private testing because the test results cannot be added to the Aardenburg light fade test database, and besides, few parties wish to pay for them. This particular study didn't go to as high an exposure dose as I would have liked to accomplish because the client had only modest requirements for fade resistance, but I was pleasantly surprised to see this third party ink set hold its own against the OEM inks in all regards (initial image quality and light fade resistance) whereas most third party inks I have tested in the past would have already shown weakness compared to OEM at the total exposure dose completed in this test. I mention this result to underscore the fact that although many third party inks are nowhere near as good as OEM, in a few instances over the years I have tested some that are. However, the only way to know for sure is to conduct a properly instrumented and environmentally controlled test. Unfortunately, most ink and media combinations rarely get tested properly even for OEM let alone third party.

cheers,
Mark

http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

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