rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

Started May 29, 2018 | Discussions
elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,736
rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?
2

lets start with looking thru glare on glass. (Looking thru glare on water is similar).

I was letting the car cool down before going to the Post Office

no CPL, 0ev AF-S

no CPL, -.7ev AF-S

now with CPL

CPL 0ev AF

CPL -.7ev, Manual Focus, mail bag on seat

Crop that shot

Lets get closer, crop same shot some more

.......................................

When you combine MF with CPL, you can 'see' the inside subject due to less glare, while framing, and, using MF you pick your subject, while magnified

You can imagine more careful test shots, with a tripod for sharpness.

....................................................

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BertIverson Veteran Member • Posts: 3,950
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

Hey Elliott,

Interesting shots. I recently bought a dirt cheap CPL filter to try to remove the sun glare/reflections from waxy leaves in scenery shots. It did indeed help remove the reflections but really changed the white balance (much greener). It could be me or the $10 CPL filter but the results seemed more work than it was worth. I'll probably give it another go and then try to fix the WB.

Your shots certainly prove the worth when shooting into water surfaces or glass sheets.

Regards,
Bert

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,736
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

BertIverson wrote:

Hey Elliott,

Interesting shots. I recently bought a dirt cheap CPL filter to try to remove the sun glare/reflections from waxy leaves in scenery shots. It did indeed help remove the reflections but really changed the white balance (much greener). It could be me or the $10 CPL filter but the results seemed more work than it was worth. I'll probably give it another go and then try to fix the WB.

We use these outdoors, and the 'Improved' colors are most often sky blue and nature green. Next set of shots involve both.

Your shots certainly prove the worth when shooting into water surfaces or glass sheets.

Regards,
Bert

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Elliott

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,736
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

Caveats:

1. view original size, exposures appear darker when viewed small.

2. quickie test shots, don't look for focus, composition, just the CPL effect.

3. Auto uses Multi Area Metering

...................

A typical photo with a decent amount of sky, with some clouds, so we can see the CPL effect of cutting highlights, capturing sky detail, and improved sky color.

Auto, No CPL, decent, except the highlights and sky

Auto No CPL, cut the highlights, terrible sky at post size, horrible enlarged

Auto with CPL, tames the highlights, captures sky detail and blue sky, a bit dark

Auto with CPL, lift shadows only

Auto with CPL, Windows 10 Photo, One Click Auto Enhance, (a bit too bright for me)

.................................

IF these were photos I wanted rather than quickie test shots:

In any case, I would be using CPL if I had it with me.

In any case, without CPL, I typically would shoot -.3 or -.7, to tame highlights and plan on lifting shadows later. Much detail lurks in dark shadows, while cutting highlights quickly causes problems, especially skies.

Might I have reviewed results on site, and tried:

AEB, Auto Exposure Bracketing?

HDR, In-camera, jpeg only, (that's me)

DRO, In-camera jpeg. you might, I would not, prior tests, I don't like DRO results.

AEL. Auto Exposure Lock. Starting in S mode, I might aim partially into the sky, force the camera to reduce the aperture, seeing the results, lock exposure with AEL Toggle (setup on my left rocker), again, planning on lifting shadows in post.

ND filter. I keep it on ND Auto, it did not use it.

...................................

really want the shot, call Bill, have him do his multi-exposure 'out of camera' HDR, that is the real deal. Keep in mind, Bill uses CPL, ND, whatever he needs to get his terrific results.

...............................

Waterfalls: CPL for sure, then select which ND filter to get the water speed desired.

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Elliott

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Bill Borne
Bill Borne Forum Pro • Posts: 40,409
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

elliottnewcomb wrote:

lets start with looking thru glare on glass. (Looking thru glare on water is similar).

I was letting the car cool down before going to the Post Office

no CPL, 0ev AF-S

no CPL, -.7ev AF-S

now with CPL

CPL 0ev AF

CPL -.7ev, Manual Focus, mail bag on seat

Crop that shot

Lets get closer, crop same shot some more

.......................................

When you combine MF with CPL, you can 'see' the inside subject due to less glare, while framing, and, using MF you pick your subject, while magnified

You can imagine more careful test shots, with a tripod for sharpness.

....................................................

Did you remember to turn the polarizer for full effect and depends on angle from sun too

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Bill Borne
Bill Borne Forum Pro • Posts: 40,409
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

BertIverson wrote:

Hey Elliott,

Interesting shots. I recently bought a dirt cheap CPL filter to try to remove the sun glare/reflections from waxy leaves in scenery shots. It did indeed help remove the reflections but really changed the white balance (much greener). It could be me or the $10 CPL filter but the results seemed more work than it was worth. I'll probably give it another go and then try to fix the WB.

Your shots certainly prove the worth when shooting into water surfaces or glass sheets.

Regards,
Bert

That can happen with cheap polarizers. I have thrown out a few till I got wise and spent the extra money

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Bill
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Bill Borne
Bill Borne Forum Pro • Posts: 40,409
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

elliottnewcomb wrote:

Caveats:

1. view original size, exposures appear darker when viewed small.

2. quickie test shots, don't look for focus, composition, just the CPL effect.

3. Auto uses Multi Area Metering

...................

A typical photo with a decent amount of sky, with some clouds, so we can see the CPL effect of cutting highlights, capturing sky detail, and improved sky color.

Auto, No CPL, decent, except the highlights and sky

Auto No CPL, cut the highlights, terrible sky at post size, horrible enlarged

Auto with CPL, tames the highlights, captures sky detail and blue sky, a bit dark

Auto with CPL, lift shadows only

Auto with CPL, Windows 10 Photo, One Click Auto Enhance, (a bit too bright for me)

.................................

IF these were photos I wanted rather than quickie test shots:

In any case, I would be using CPL if I had it with me.

In any case, without CPL, I typically would shoot -.3 or -.7, to tame highlights and plan on lifting shadows later. Much detail lurks in dark shadows, while cutting highlights quickly causes problems, especially skies.

Might I have reviewed results on site, and tried:

AEB, Auto Exposure Bracketing?

HDR, In-camera, jpeg only, (that's me)

DRO, In-camera jpeg. you might, I would not, prior tests, I don't like DRO results.

AEL. Auto Exposure Lock. Starting in S mode, I might aim partially into the sky, force the camera to reduce the aperture, seeing the results, lock exposure with AEL Toggle (setup on my left rocker), again, planning on lifting shadows in post.

ND filter. I keep it on ND Auto, it did not use it.

...................................

really want the shot, call Bill, have him do his multi-exposure 'out of camera' HDR, that is the real deal. Keep in mind, Bill uses CPL, ND, whatever he needs to get his terrific results.

Thanks Elliott. I have been taking almost exclusively bracketed exposures on my annual trips out west for the last 5 years. 1. I like the results. 2 I like processing them. 3 If I can get away with 1 exposure I have a choice of exposures

Something else in my style...I now use Auto ISO MFNR for all Museum shots in A Mode. Never fails me

2 Examples

Thomas Edison Museum West Orange NJ

Car Museum Norwich NY

...............................

Waterfalls: CPL for sure, then select which ND filter to get the water speed desired.

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Elliott

Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't use cpl in NY, but out west where it is brighter I almost always do with ot without exposure bracketing.

One place it can cause problems is taking shots and stitching for panos. It can cause dramatic differences in skies the further away from angle to the sun

For the most polarization you would aim the cam 90 degrees to the sun. IOW...stretch out your arms and point fingers at sun. Now shooting straight ahead will give you the most [polarization. Then aiming at the sky (Hopefully with clouds) and turn the filter till you see amount of polarization you want. Then take the shot.

To see effect on a pano sweep from left to right looking thru viewfinder watching the sky

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,736
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

Bill Borne wrote:

Did you remember to turn the polarizer for full effect and depends on angle from sun too

Yes, I did, THIS TIME. My memory sucks, I cannot tell you how many times I put it on, leave it on, then, a few days later, turn it on, extend the lens, and either forget it is on, or forget to rotate the CPL for proper orientation. Probably should remove it when done for the day.

When you can see, you watch the sky color, clouds, or reflections off highlight areas. Green colors.

Sometimes, you have a hard time seeing any difference, not much sky, lots of mixed foliage and branches.

1. Bill taught me a CPL trick: to turn around 180 degrees, aim at sky, rotate till best position of the sky, then, turn back to your subject and take the shot.

2. That situation yesterday, I found I could see the texture/detail of a picnic table in the foreground, thus it was cutting glare on it's surface. That was the rotation I used, and it made a difference.

3. Metering Area. My default is S mode, Center Metering Area. Auto defaults to multi-full frame metering.

Yesterday, I tried Auto on a bleached white house. Auto CPL on, defaulting to multi-area metering, it did fairly well.

I sometimes use Auto to inform me what shutter speed the camera used, then I know I can use that speed. Say a situation with a breeze blowing flowers. Auto does not know about the breeze, SO I use S mode, and shoot faster than I thought I could, still getting low ISO, and no blur.

4. Trying S mode, on the same bleached house, I could not get the camera to get anything decent. Nothing. Turned ND filter on. Sped up the shutter speed, nothing decent. I realized later, it was because I was using Center Area Metering. IF I had changed to full frame metering, then I bet I could have gotten decent shots. I will be testing that.

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Elliott

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,736
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

Train Station, sun from different angle, harder to see effects, UNTIL back at the ranch.

No PP of any kind done to these

S mode, no CPL, center metering, a disaster

Auto, no CPL, Full Frame Metering helped a lot I think

Auto, CPL, inexpensive no brand

Auto, CPL, new Hoya, they say new improved HRT technology

Auto, no CPL repeated for adjacent comparison to CPL HRT

see CPL HRT roof, texture of sidewalk, brick/stone color, improved sky detail, blue sky not much bluer

The difference between the two CPL filters, HRT best IMO, may not be a fair test, because, I may have rotated the HRT version to a better rotation than the inexpensive CPL. A more careful test is required.

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Elliott

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Bill Borne
Bill Borne Forum Pro • Posts: 40,409
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

elliottnewcomb wrote:

Train Station, sun from different angle, harder to see effects, UNTIL back at the ranch.

No PP of any kind done to these

S mode, no CPL, center metering, a disaster

What did you expect, Elliott?

Center Metering is ok for a bird closeup, etc but not this type of shot. It will blow the sky everytime. Same for spot metering

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Bill
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Bill Borne
Bill Borne Forum Pro • Posts: 40,409
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

elliottnewcomb wrote:

Train Station, sun from different angle, harder to see effects, UNTIL back at the ranch.

No PP of any kind done to these

S mode, no CPL, center metering, a disaster

Auto, no CPL, Full Frame Metering helped a lot I think

Auto, CPL, inexpensive no brand

Auto, CPL, new Hoya, they say new improved HRT technology

Auto, no CPL repeated for adjacent comparison to CPL HRT

see CPL HRT roof, texture of sidewalk, brick/stone color, improved sky detail, blue sky not much bluer

The difference between the two CPL filters, HRT best IMO, may not be a fair test, because, I may have rotated the HRT version to a better rotation than the inexpensive CPL. A more careful test is required.

I suspect the sun is not at your fingertips with arms out to the side? You should make sure you are shooting in this position to fully test the cpl

Like this

Converted from Raw to jpg no other processing using cpl (Base shot from 5 bracketed exposures)

Final HDR resized 1080 high fro raw files

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Bill
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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,736
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

last one from rx100m3, (RX1r test next opportunity)

Auto no CPL, full frame metering

S mode, -1ev, CPL, center metering, dark (might have tried -.3 and -.7, oh well)

Let's lighten those shadows some

Windows 10, Photos, One Click Enhance, too bright for me

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Elliott

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,736
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

elliottnewcomb wrote:

BertIverson wrote:

Hey Elliott,

Interesting shots. I recently bought a dirt cheap CPL filter to try to remove the sun glare/reflections from waxy leaves in scenery shots. It did indeed help remove the reflections but really changed the white balance (much greener). It could be me or the $10 CPL filter but the results seemed more work than it was worth. I'll probably give it another go and then try to fix the WB.

We use these outdoors, and the 'Improved' colors are most often sky blue and nature green. Next set of shots involve both.

Your shots certainly prove the worth when shooting into water surfaces or glass sheets.

Regards,
Bert

Just to clarify, 'Improved' color is subjective, as Bert noted, he got the technical results of CPL, but then needed PP to get the colors he wanted.

Bill suggested higher quality would help. He has vastly more experience than me, I just want to say, with the best CPL, Bert may still need PP to get the colors he wants. Thing is, he would not have a shot worth working on without the CPL.

Much depends on what you can perceive while shooting, the effect, range of apparent change and color intensity varies by two factors.

1. the angle of the sun, which you may or may not be able to change. (most effective when sun is at 90 degrees to your view). For a fixed subject, consider the time of day/sun position.

2. your chosen rotation. in good visibility, you can see the progressive glare reduction and progressive deepening of the blue sky and green grass/foliage. Get the full effect, modify color in post, or, stop rotating when it is good enough, avoiding too much color saturation. I am simplifying, just saying, there are variables you can adjust, which give you the advantages of CPL.

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Elliott

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,736
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

BertIverson wrote:

Hey Elliott,

Interesting shots. I recently bought a dirt cheap CPL filter to try to remove the sun glare/reflections from waxy leaves in scenery shots. It did indeed help remove the reflections but really changed the white balance (much greener). It could be me or the $10 CPL filter but the results seemed more work than it was worth. I'll probably give it another go and then try to fix the WB.

Your shots certainly prove the worth when shooting into water surfaces or glass sheets.

Regards,
Bert

Bert,

I just looked at the greens in the first test, reducing glare thru auto glass.

Take a look at the green foliage, top left, grass top edge, and the green inspection sticker. In this case, the foliage color has more yellow than no CPL (more normal greens), and the inspection sticker is a different color green as well.

It does seem finding a quick process to readily adjust only the greens would be a skill to have.

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Elliott

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,736
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

Bill Borne wrote:

For the most polarization you would aim the cam 90 degrees to the sun. IOW...stretch out your arms and point fingers at sun. Now shooting straight ahead will give you the most [polarization. Then aiming at the sky (Hopefully with clouds) and turn the filter till you see amount of polarization you want. Then take the shot.

Key words from Bill:

THE AMOUNT OF POLARIZATIION YOU WANT

Start with the fact that it is a shot you want, not a test shot. Worth some work.

Add the fact that you paid a small fortune for the camera, the cost of a good CPL is not much relative to your initial investment.

Add that you are in control of "THE AMOUNT OF POLARIZATION YOU WANT"

You can see it thru the EVF or LCD as you rotate.

How intense the blue sky color? What is it doing to the green color? Other highlights? How much interesting detail/clouds in the sky?

You can do manual CPL bracketing if you cannot see the effect well. Rotate till no effect, or start somewhere, anywhere: shoot

rotate 60 shoot, 120, 180, 240, 320, just guess as you turn, precision not needed.

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Elliott

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Bill Borne
Bill Borne Forum Pro • Posts: 40,409
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

elliottnewcomb wrote:

Bill Borne wrote:

For the most polarization you would aim the cam 90 degrees to the sun. IOW...stretch out your arms and point fingers at sun. Now shooting straight ahead will give you the most [polarization. Then aiming at the sky (Hopefully with clouds) and turn the filter till you see amount of polarization you want. Then take the shot.

Key words from Bill:

THE AMOUNT OF POLARIZATIION YOU WANT

Start with the fact that it is a shot you want, not a test shot. Worth some work.

Add the fact that you paid a small fortune for the camera, the cost of a good CPL is not much relative to your initial investment.

Add that you are in control of "THE AMOUNT OF POLARIZATION YOU WANT"

You can see it thru the EVF or LCD as you rotate.

How intense the blue sky color? What is it doing to the green color? Other highlights? How much interesting detail/clouds in the sky?

You can do manual CPL bracketing if you cannot see the effect well. Rotate till no effect, or start somewhere, anywhere: shoot

rotate 60 shoot, 120, 180, 240, 320, just guess as you turn, precision not needed.

Everything has reflective values. Black 0 White 100% and everything in between.

The reason a landscape shot looks darker with cpl is all the leaves etc have had reflection cut back.

Photography Polarization

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polarizing_filter_(photography)

A pretty good representation

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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,736
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

Excellent link Bill.

I wanted to show members the rx100 specifically, to illustrate how that model captures highlights and benefits from CPL outdoors.

Outdoors, without CPL: I, and many others here, shoot -.3 or -.7, lift shadows in Post, helps, but CPL gives better results of skies, and CPL cuts glass and water glare, under exposing does not solve that.

Meanwhile, without CPL, the rx100 nearly always gets colors right, CPL gives apparently different greens sometimes, not always.

Do you have a simple process to PP greens only?

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Elliott

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Bill Borne
Bill Borne Forum Pro • Posts: 40,409
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

elliottnewcomb wrote:

Excellent link Bill.

I wanted to show members the rx100 specifically, to illustrate how that model captures highlights and benefits from CPL outdoors.

Outdoors, without CPL: I, and many others here, shoot -.3 or -.7, lift shadows in Post, helps, but CPL gives better results of skies, and CPL cuts glass and water glare, under exposing does not solve that.

Meanwhile, without CPL, the rx100 nearly always gets colors right, CPL gives apparently different greens sometimes, not always.

Do you have a simple process to PP greens only?

You can go into saturation and choose greens yellow and adjust

I however using PS use a filter plug in called Icorrect pro where I just choose foliage and click a green in photo and all is done for me

http://pictocolor.com/icorrect-editlab-pro.html

but using my B+W cpl I have no problems with greens

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Bill
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OP elliottnewcomb Forum Pro • Posts: 16,736
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

New CPL.

https://breakthrough.photography/products/x4-circular-polarizer?variant=31547348881

Would someone with better understanding than me read about it and comment please?

thanks

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Elliott

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Bill Borne
Bill Borne Forum Pro • Posts: 40,409
Re: rx100m3, RX1r: to CPL or not to CPL?

elliottnewcomb wrote:

New CPL.

https://breakthrough.photography/products/x4-circular-polarizer?variant=31547348881

Would someone with better understanding than me read about it and comment please?

thanks

Makes sense to me

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_3_6?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=x4+cpl+77mm&sprefix=X4+CPL%2Caps%2C216&crid=KBQHXFB0ETMV

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