Mandatory Noise Reduction (NR) in Various Pentax Cameras

Started 7 months ago | Discussions
bclaff Veteran Member • Posts: 7,486
Mandatory Noise Reduction (NR) in Various Pentax Cameras
25

At PhotonsToPhotos I detect signal processing, usually Noise Reduction (NR), using 2D Fourier Transforms (2D FTs).
This mosaic illustrates the whole stop results for the K-1 II:

The first three stops are mostly random and indicate little or no signal processing; all other higher ISO settings show significant NR.

In viewing the Read Noise the NR causes a drop that looks like Dual Conversion Gain but is not:

Note that the down-triangle symbol indicates NR

You can use the interactive chart to see where other Pentax cameras start NR.

In general Pentax often starts NR at a much lower ISO setting than others.
Here's a comparison with a camera that does have Dual Conversion Gain and then later, at a much higher ISO setting, starts NR.

-- hide signature --

Bill ( Your trusted source for independent sensor data at PhotonsToPhotos )

Pentax K-1 II
If you believe there are incorrect tags, please send us this post using our feedback form.
Iliah Borg Forum Pro • Posts: 24,804
Re: Mandatory Noise Reduction (NR) in Various Pentax Cameras
1

bclaff wrote:

At PhotonsToPhotos I detect signal processing, usually Noise Reduction (NR), using 2D Fourier Transforms (2D FTs).
This mosaic illustrates the whole stop results for the K-1 II:

The first three stops are mostly random and indicate little or no signal processing; all other higher ISO settings show significant NR.

In viewing the Read Noise the NR causes a drop that looks like Dual Conversion Gain but is not:

Note that the down-triangle symbol indicates NR

You can use the interactive chart to see where other Pentax cameras start NR.

In general Pentax often starts NR at a much lower ISO setting than others.
Here's a comparison with a camera that does have Dual Conversion Gain and then later, at a much higher ISO setting, starts NR.

Hi Bill,

If you still have K-1 original shots, could you compare the level of banding (first 3 stops, vertical line on FTs) between K-1 and K-1 II?

-- hide signature --
LensBeginner
LensBeginner Contributing Member • Posts: 588
Re: Mandatory Noise Reduction (NR) in Various Pentax Cameras

bclaff wrote:

The first three stops

So the pictures go:

first row ISO100÷1'600

second row 3'200÷51'200

third row 102'400÷819'200

is that correct?

 LensBeginner's gear list:LensBeginner's gear list
Pentax K100D Super Pentax K-01 Pentax K-30 Pentax smc DA 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 AL WR Pentax smc DA 40mm F2.8 XS Lens +2 more
OP bclaff Veteran Member • Posts: 7,486
Re: Mandatory Noise Reduction (NR) in Various Pentax Cameras

LensBeginner wrote:

bclaff wrote:

The first three stops

So the pictures go:

first row ISO100÷1'600

second row 3'200÷51'200

third row 102'400÷819'200

is that correct?

Yes

-- hide signature --

Bill ( Your trusted source for independent sensor data at PhotonsToPhotos )

LensBeginner
LensBeginner Contributing Member • Posts: 588
Re: Mandatory Noise Reduction (NR) in Various Pentax Cameras

bclaff wrote:

Yes

TY.

 LensBeginner's gear list:LensBeginner's gear list
Pentax K100D Super Pentax K-01 Pentax K-30 Pentax smc DA 18-55mm F3.5-5.6 AL WR Pentax smc DA 40mm F2.8 XS Lens +2 more
OP bclaff Veteran Member • Posts: 7,486
Re: Mandatory Noise Reduction (NR) in Various Pentax Cameras
2

Iliah Borg wrote:

bclaff wrote:

At PhotonsToPhotos I detect signal processing, usually Noise Reduction (NR), using 2D Fourier Transforms (2D FTs).
This mosaic illustrates the whole stop results for the K-1 II:

The first three stops are mostly random and indicate little or no signal processing; all other higher ISO settings show significant NR.

...

If you still have K-1 original shots, could you compare the level of banding (first 3 stops, vertical line on FTs) between K-1 and K-1 II?

Here you go:

K-1 is much cleaner (ISOs are in the same locates as the K-1 II image)

However, I wouldn't interpret the slight vertical line as banding; this could easily be a small gradient accentuated by the FT wrapping.

Regards

-- hide signature --

Bill ( Your trusted source for independent sensor data at PhotonsToPhotos )

Iliah Borg Forum Pro • Posts: 24,804
Re: Mandatory Noise Reduction (NR) in Various Pentax Cameras
2

bclaff wrote:

Iliah Borg wrote:

bclaff wrote:

At PhotonsToPhotos I detect signal processing, usually Noise Reduction (NR), using 2D Fourier Transforms (2D FTs).
This mosaic illustrates the whole stop results for the K-1 II:

The first three stops are mostly random and indicate little or no signal processing; all other higher ISO settings show significant NR.

...

If you still have K-1 original shots, could you compare the level of banding (first 3 stops, vertical line on FTs) between K-1 and K-1 II?

Here you go:

K-1 is much cleaner (ISOs are in the same locates as the K-1 II image)

However, I wouldn't interpret the slight vertical line as banding; this could easily be a small gradient accentuated by the FT wrapping.

Thank you.

I checked, and small blurring along the vertical line removes it, not to mention the banding is quite visible on green channel for example. My impression is that banding on K-1 II may be more pronounced than on K-1, and that may have caused the need in noise reduction (or, a not very successful attempt to remove banding using optical black).

-- hide signature --
OP bclaff Veteran Member • Posts: 7,486
Re: Mandatory Noise Reduction (NR) in Various Pentax Cameras
2

Iliah Borg wrote:

...If you still have K-1 original shots, could you compare the level of banding (first 3 stops, vertical line on FTs) between K-1 and K-1 II?

Here is something from the PhotonsToPhotos Sensor Heatmaps:

Lower "metrics" are better; zero would be perfect. Note that the table columns are sort-able.

Both the visual, and the numbers (highlighted), show an increase in row Fixed Pattern Noise (FPN).
It's unclear whether this measurable difference is photographically relevant.

Regards

-- hide signature --

Bill ( Your trusted source for independent sensor data at PhotonsToPhotos )

OP bclaff Veteran Member • Posts: 7,486
Re: Mandatory Noise Reduction (NR) in Various Pentax Cameras
1

Here is some preliminary Photographic Dynamic Range (PDR) information:

The K-1 II measurements are worthy of publishing on the site yet but this is substantially how it will look.

-- hide signature --

Bill ( Your trusted source for independent sensor data at PhotonsToPhotos )

Prognathous Veteran Member • Posts: 9,217
Re: Mandatory Noise Reduction (NR) in Various Pentax Cameras

Interesting results, thanks for posting.

Is this something Pentax can fix in firmware update?

 Prognathous's gear list:Prognathous's gear list
Sony a77 II Tamron 18-270mm F3.5-6.3 Di II PZD Tamron SP AF 60mm F2 Di II LD IF Macro Sony DT 16-50mm F2.8 SSM Konica Minolta Maxxum 7D +12 more
OP bclaff Veteran Member • Posts: 7,486
Re: Mandatory Noise Reduction (NR) in Various Pentax Cameras
6

Prognathous wrote:

Interesting results, thanks for posting.

Is this something Pentax can fix in firmware update?

I would think so but I suspect they don't think of it as broken.

-- hide signature --

Bill ( Your trusted source for independent sensor data at PhotonsToPhotos )

MightyMike Forum Pro • Posts: 38,600
Re: Mandatory Noise Reduction (NR) in Various Pentax Cameras
1

So bottom line this for me, We all knew added mandatory NR was coming, how much worse is this than ordinary post processing NR? Where would we see negative effects other than ever so slightly weaker sharpness, contrast and resolution?

-- hide signature --

Mike from Canada
"I am not a great photographer! God is a great creator! All I do is capture His creation with the tools He has provided me."
'I like to think so far outside the box that it would require a telephoto lens just to see the box!' ~ 'My Quote :)'
http://www.michaelfastphotography.com/galleries/VP-BDI_3a.jpg
http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?sort_order=views%20DESC&first_this_page=0&page_limit=180&&emailsearch=mighty_mike88%40hotmail.com&thumbnails=

OP bclaff Veteran Member • Posts: 7,486
Re: Mandatory Noise Reduction (NR) in Various Pentax Cameras
4

MightyMike wrote:

So bottom line this for me, We all knew added mandatory NR was coming, how much worse is this than ordinary post processing NR? Where would we see negative effects other than ever so slightly weaker sharpness, contrast and resolution?

I don't have a good objective measure.

I can say that the 2D Fourier Transforms (2D FTs) show more pronounced processing that is usual.
I suspect this is very aggressive Noise Reduction (NR); that would imply more than usual destruction of detail.

-- hide signature --

Bill ( Your trusted source for independent sensor data at PhotonsToPhotos )

OP bclaff Veteran Member • Posts: 7,486
Re: Mandatory Noise Reduction (NR) in Various Pentax Cameras
2

bclaff wrote:

MightyMike wrote:

So bottom line this for me, We all knew added mandatory NR was coming, how much worse is this than ordinary post processing NR? Where would we see negative effects other than ever so slightly weaker sharpness, contrast and resolution?

I don't have a good objective measure.

I can say that the 2D Fourier Transforms (2D FTs) show more pronounced processing that is usual.

To support my statement of more pronounced processing here are the 2D FTs for the Nikon D90:

D90 2D FTs whole stops starting at ISO 100

This more subtle loss of randomness with the white center and corners/edges is typical of the Noise Reduction (NR) I tend to see.
The Pentax 2D FTs are as extreme as I have seen.

-- hide signature --

Bill ( Your trusted source for independent sensor data at PhotonsToPhotos )

brett nz
brett nz Regular Member • Posts: 426
Thank you for posting :) NT
 brett nz's gear list:brett nz's gear list
Pentax K-1 Pentax smc FA 77mm 1.8 Limited Pentax smc FA 31mm F1.8 AL Limited Pentax FA 15-30mm F2.8 Pentax FA 70-200 F2.8 +1 more
Piotr Krochmal New Member • Posts: 1
Re: Thank you for posting :) NT
3

Thank you for testes. I hoped that AUnit working other way. I that case I spend my money on lenses Shame on you Pentax

barbakane
barbakane Forum Member • Posts: 63
Re: Mandatory Noise Reduction (NR) in Various Pentax Cameras
4

All I know, which isn't much, is if I like a shot or not. I'm from the film days so noise, at least for me, goes with the territory, I ain't gonna overthink it. I do however applaud the dedication and effort needed to get to these results.

Ian Stuart Forsyth
Ian Stuart Forsyth Veteran Member • Posts: 3,382
Re: Mandatory Noise Reduction (NR) in Various Pentax Cameras

bclaff wrote:

At PhotonsToPhotos I detect signal processing, usually Noise Reduction (NR), using 2D Fourier Transforms (2D FTs).
This mosaic illustrates the whole stop results for the K-1 II:

The first three stops are mostly random and indicate little or no signal processing; all other higher ISO settings show significant NR.

In viewing the Read Noise the NR causes a drop that looks like Dual Conversion Gain but is not:

Note that the down-triangle symbol indicates NR

You can use the interactive chart to see where other Pentax cameras start NR.

In general Pentax often starts NR at a much lower ISO setting than others.
Here's a comparison with a camera that does have Dual Conversion Gain and then later, at a much higher ISO setting, starts NR.

Just out of curiosity have you done any testing on ether of KP or the K70 as to whether or not they use Dual Conversion Gain and would this explain some of the improvement to noise we see from both those cameras?

This may explain as to why Pentax has decided to use a heavy handed NR with the K1 and the dated sensor so that it would appear as to keep up with the maybe newer sensors found in the KP-K70. The release dates of the KP and K70 could hint to the performance gain seen is from DCG and not the new chip NR chip found in all 3 cameras.

I would find it odd if the Kp and k70 had DCG that pentax would implement any NR to those raw files and especially bellow iso 1600

-- hide signature --

The Camera is only a tool, photography is deciding how to use it.
The hardest part about capturing wildlife is not the photographing portion; it’s getting them to sign a model release

 Ian Stuart Forsyth's gear list:Ian Stuart Forsyth's gear list
Nikon PC-E Nikkor 45mm f/2.8D ED Pentax K-5 Pentax *ist DS Pentax K10D Pentax K20D +24 more
Lage New Member • Posts: 18
Re: Mandatory Noise Reduction (NR) in Various Pentax Cameras

Bill, the K-1, and i assume the K-1 II, have menu options for setting noise reduction for long exposures and high ISO.

What was the settings during your tests?

BR,

Lage

LightBug Senior Member • Posts: 2,388
Noise reduction != loss of detail
3

Signal processing may have been done, but that does not mean it’s a bad thing.  Looking at DPR’s K-1ii review’s scene comparison, focusing on the fine text above center (since we know the review lens was not sharp across frame), I cannot spot any so called loss of detail in K-1ii claimed by DPR at any ISO when comparing against K-1.

 LightBug's gear list:LightBug's gear list
Pentax K-S2 Pentax Q-S1 Sony a7R Pentax smc DA 15mm F4 ED AL Limited Pentax smc DA 40mm F2.8 Limited +10 more
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads