Is the new Sony 44x33 sensor out in the wild?

Started Apr 30, 2018 | Discussions
left eye
left eye Senior Member • Posts: 1,765
Re: Dumb question.

umeet wrote:

Erik Kaffehr wrote:

Hi,

DxO-mark gives an EDR of 13.49 EV for the X1D (their precision...) and the new sensor has 13.7 - 13.9 EV according to Sony. But the pixel are is half the size. I guess that there is some improvement in full well capacity per area and that some of the DR is coming lower readout noise.

What we essentially know is that the new 100 MP sensor is probably a tiny bit better in DR at the pixel level and that should give a significant improvement with the number of pixels taken into account.

My guess is that we may se an 0.7 EV improvement at the sensor level, compared to the 50 MP sensor.

Best regards

Erik

PhaseOne says the old 50mpix sensor has 84dB DR and this new 100 mpix has 83dB DR.

So this new one likely will not give better scores than the X1D has at "screen" or pixel level DR at DxOmark.

This same deal has been with FF sensors since D810. The pixel level max DR has stagnated to around 13.5 EVs, with A7iii being only notable exception with its almost 14 EVs (obv. because it has bigger pixels). One reason probably has been 14bit ADCs.

No, it's using less pure RGB filter arrays, i.e more light transmission, then more primary-colour in-camera on-chip cleaning of the raw data, not sure how I can prove this here, but more transparent RGB filters is a Sony game.  When it comes to Fuji or Kodak the filters are more pure, darker, block more light, and so require ISO hyping.

Take it or leave it.  Sony does this, provides cleaner noise, though more cleaned digital [and often questionable] colour.

But most certainly the normalized "print" measurement of X1D will be beaten easily by this 100mpix.

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JimKasson
JimKasson Forum Pro • Posts: 25,537
Re: Dumb question.
1

left eye wrote:

umeet wrote:

Erik Kaffehr wrote:

Hi,

DxO-mark gives an EDR of 13.49 EV for the X1D (their precision...) and the new sensor has 13.7 - 13.9 EV according to Sony. But the pixel are is half the size. I guess that there is some improvement in full well capacity per area and that some of the DR is coming lower readout noise.

What we essentially know is that the new 100 MP sensor is probably a tiny bit better in DR at the pixel level and that should give a significant improvement with the number of pixels taken into account.

My guess is that we may se an 0.7 EV improvement at the sensor level, compared to the 50 MP sensor.

Best regards

Erik

PhaseOne says the old 50mpix sensor has 84dB DR and this new 100 mpix has 83dB DR.

So this new one likely will not give better scores than the X1D has at "screen" or pixel level DR at DxOmark.

This same deal has been with FF sensors since D810. The pixel level max DR has stagnated to around 13.5 EVs, with A7iii being only notable exception with its almost 14 EVs (obv. because it has bigger pixels). One reason probably has been 14bit ADCs.

No, it's using less pure RGB filter arrays, i.e more light transmission, then more primary-colour in-camera on-chip cleaning of the raw data, not sure how I can prove this here, but more transparent RGB filters is a Sony game.

This is a non-sequitur. CFA filters don't affect EDR.

When it comes to Fuji or Kodak the filters are more pure, darker, block more light, and so require ISO hyping.

Actually, if I understand what you mean by "ISO hyping", in the GFX, that's because of the microlenses.

Old-timer question: is ISO-hyping done in the tray that comes after the stop bath?;-)

Jim

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left eye
left eye Senior Member • Posts: 1,765
a real question

JimKasson wrote:

left eye wrote:

umeet wrote:

Erik Kaffehr wrote:

Hi,

DxO-mark gives an EDR of 13.49 EV for the X1D (their precision...) and the new sensor has 13.7 - 13.9 EV according to Sony. But the pixel are is half the size. I guess that there is some improvement in full well capacity per area and that some of the DR is coming lower readout noise.

What we essentially know is that the new 100 MP sensor is probably a tiny bit better in DR at the pixel level and that should give a significant improvement with the number of pixels taken into account.

My guess is that we may se an 0.7 EV improvement at the sensor level, compared to the 50 MP sensor.

Best regards

Erik

PhaseOne says the old 50mpix sensor has 84dB DR and this new 100 mpix has 83dB DR.

So this new one likely will not give better scores than the X1D has at "screen" or pixel level DR at DxOmark.

This same deal has been with FF sensors since D810. The pixel level max DR has stagnated to around 13.5 EVs, with A7iii being only notable exception with its almost 14 EVs (obv. because it has bigger pixels). One reason probably has been 14bit ADCs.

No, it's using less pure RGB filter arrays, i.e more light transmission, then more primary-colour in-camera on-chip cleaning of the raw data, not sure how I can prove this here, but more transparent RGB filters is a Sony game.

This is a non-sequitur. CFA filters don't affect EDR.

When it comes to Fuji or Kodak the filters are more pure, darker, block more light, and so require ISO hyping.

Actually, if I understand what you mean by "ISO hyping", in the GFX, that's because of the microlenses.

Old-timer question: is ISO-hyping done in the tray that comes after the stop bath?;-)

...just to prove my old-timer status, my predilection was for a pre-flash (a short burst of overall light on the paper before the negative was exposed), in fact it was almost a religion, or very much a science, for me, ...to mitigate the contrasty white inertia of paper - and so reveal the continuous inherent DR of those embedded crystals.

One wonders, if us lot - here - the romantic science freaks, had some real say with what Fuji was cooking up next, would just slant some exactness towards the magic we long for.

Jim

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wuzup Senior Member • Posts: 1,244
Re: Dumb question.

is ISO-hyping done in the tray that comes after the stop bath?;-)

After stop was fixer... then hypo clear!!  

JimKasson
JimKasson Forum Pro • Posts: 25,537
Explaining jokes

wuzup wrote:

is ISO-hyping done in the tray that comes after the stop bath?;-)

After stop was fixer... then hypo clear!!

I hate it when I have to explain jokes, but another name for fixer is "hypo".

Jim

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left eye
left eye Senior Member • Posts: 1,765
Water bath

wuzup wrote:

is ISO-hyping done in the tray that comes after the stop bath?;-)

After stop was fixer... then hypo clear!!

well chemistry, was just that,

after the developer I had a water bath, though from there the paper would go back into the developer, numerous times, all very gradual and subtle.

A stop bath, well, that wasn't really necessary, or just there to reduce contamination and dilution; not a contrast-softening photographic device like the water-bath around the developer.

/

Not sure of the relevance to the Sony 100MP sensor?

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left eye
left eye Senior Member • Posts: 1,765
Vinegar / Salt

JimKasson wrote:

wuzup wrote:

is ISO-hyping done in the tray that comes after the stop bath?;-)

After stop was fixer... then hypo clear!!

I hate it when I have to explain jokes, but another name for fixer is "hypo".

yep, I (just about) got it,

though glad my fingers are no longer in it.

Jim

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KWNJr Contributing Member • Posts: 924
Re: a real question

left eye wrote:

JimKasson wrote:

left eye wrote:

umeet wrote:

Erik Kaffehr wrote:

Hi,

DxO-mark gives an EDR of 13.49 EV for the X1D (their precision...) and the new sensor has 13.7 - 13.9 EV according to Sony. But the pixel are is half the size. I guess that there is some improvement in full well capacity per area and that some of the DR is coming lower readout noise.

What we essentially know is that the new 100 MP sensor is probably a tiny bit better in DR at the pixel level and that should give a significant improvement with the number of pixels taken into account.

My guess is that we may se an 0.7 EV improvement at the sensor level, compared to the 50 MP sensor.

Best regards

Erik

PhaseOne says the old 50mpix sensor has 84dB DR and this new 100 mpix has 83dB DR.

So this new one likely will not give better scores than the X1D has at "screen" or pixel level DR at DxOmark.

This same deal has been with FF sensors since D810. The pixel level max DR has stagnated to around 13.5 EVs, with A7iii being only notable exception with its almost 14 EVs (obv. because it has bigger pixels). One reason probably has been 14bit ADCs.

No, it's using less pure RGB filter arrays, i.e more light transmission, then more primary-colour in-camera on-chip cleaning of the raw data, not sure how I can prove this here, but more transparent RGB filters is a Sony game.

This is a non-sequitur. CFA filters don't affect EDR.

When it comes to Fuji or Kodak the filters are more pure, darker, block more light, and so require ISO hyping.

Actually, if I understand what you mean by "ISO hyping", in the GFX, that's because of the microlenses.

Old-timer question: is ISO-hyping done in the tray that comes after the stop bath?;-)

...just to prove my old-timer status, my predilection was for a pre-flash (a short burst of overall light on the paper before the negative was exposed), in fact it was almost a religion, or very much a science, for me, ...to mitigate the contrasty white inertia of paper - and so reveal the continuous inherent DR of those embedded crystals.

Also see (for film):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photographic_hypersensitization#Preflashing_and_latensification

There was also a camera that was fitted with micro-intensity lights in the camera body between the lens and the shutter. It was called Concurrent Photon Amplification (CPA). It was designed to get film over the same hump.

The intensity was adjustable for different ISO's. Probably only for B&W, as no provision for white balance was made. I think it was in a Leica M camera.

I do not think is was a success.

One wonders, if us lot - here - the romantic science freaks, had some real say with what Fuji was cooking up next, would just slant some exactness towards the magic we long for.

Jim

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wuzup Senior Member • Posts: 1,244
Re: Explaining jokes

The Rochester boys used to call it fixer.  Anyways...

wuzup Senior Member • Posts: 1,244
Re: Water bath

Yes, I remember a developer dilution like 1:5 and very warm and paper left in a long time, as in... come back after lunch to see if anything happened. Goofy stuff... probably the result if sniffing too many chemicals. 

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