Stacked sensor tech coming to APC-S sized sensors (rumored X-T3)?

Started Apr 5, 2018 | Discussions
Canadianguy Senior Member • Posts: 2,369
Stacked sensor tech coming to APC-S sized sensors (rumored X-T3)?

So the latest rumors (source: fuji rumors) point to the X-T3 getting a stacked sensor with on board memory to reduce rolling shutter and for fast frame rates without blackouts...

It debuted in 1" sensors for the Sony RX100 line in 2015 and was not cheap

It debuted in 35mm sensors in the Sony A9 in 2017 and was not cheap

Coming to Fujifilm X-T3 in 2018 and breaks the 2.5K USD barrier?

If the rumors are true and reading between the lines and just a guess on my part - I foresee a battle between a Sony A6700 and Fuji X-T3 sharing the same sensor.

Of course, Sony better start releasing some APS-C sized lenses if it wants to have a chance in that battle. Unless they drastically undercut Fujifilm in pricing of the rumored camera bodies...

Sony a9 Sony RX100
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Doug Pardee
Doug Pardee Veteran Member • Posts: 9,867
Re: Stacked sensor tech coming to APC-S sized sensors (rumored X-T3)?
1

Canadianguy wrote:

If the rumors are true and reading between the lines and just a guess on my part - I foresee a battle between a Sony A6700 and Fuji X-T3 sharing the same sensor.

That assumes that the X-T3 would use a Sony sensor. There's a lot of buzz (not to be confused with facts) that TowerJazz might be supplying the new sensors.

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bemeta Regular Member • Posts: 352
Re: Stacked sensor tech coming to APC-S sized sensors (rumored X-T3)?
3

Canadianguy wrote:

Of course, Sony better start releasing some APS-C sized lenses if it wants to have a chance in that battle. Unless they drastically undercut Fujifilm in pricing of the rumored camera bodies...

As we are in the Fuji-section of this forum I just hope Fuji will update some of the older lenses (the 35/1.4 and 56/1.2 for example) and release some new APS-C lenses.

KrisAK Contributing Member • Posts: 633
Re: Stacked sensor tech coming to APC-S sized sensors (rumored X-T3)?

bemeta wrote:

Canadianguy wrote:

Of course, Sony better start releasing some APS-C sized lenses if it wants to have a chance in that battle. Unless they drastically undercut Fujifilm in pricing of the rumored camera bodies...

As we are in the Fuji-section of this forum I just hope Fuji will update some of the older lenses (the 35/1.4 and 56/1.2 for example) and release some new APS-C lenses.

Yes.

Video friendly lenses (fast and quiet) are essential to the system.

architekt_1 Junior Member • Posts: 33
Re: Stacked sensor tech coming to APC-S sized sensors (rumored X-T3)?
3

towerjazz also supply sensors for LEICA M10, if this is true, FUJI will officially be LEICA

scst48 Contributing Member • Posts: 871
Re: Stacked sensor tech coming to APC-S sized sensors (rumored X-T3)?
4

Doug Pardee wrote:

Canadianguy wrote:

If the rumors are true and reading between the lines and just a guess on my part - I foresee a battle between a Sony A6700 and Fuji X-T3 sharing the same sensor.

That assumes that the X-T3 would use a Sony sensor. There's a lot of buzz (not to be confused with facts) that TowerJazz might be supplying the new sensors.

It would be wise and beneficial in the long run if Fuji leaves the Sony shoes

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Stefan

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JayPhizzt Senior Member • Posts: 1,350
Re: Stacked sensor tech coming to APC-S sized sensors (rumored X-T3)?
5

Canadianguy wrote:

So the latest rumors (source: fuji rumors) point to the X-T3 getting a stacked sensor with on board memory to reduce rolling shutter and for fast frame rates without blackouts...

It debuted in 1" sensors for the Sony RX100 line in 2015 and was not cheap

It debuted in 35mm sensors in the Sony A9 in 2017 and was not cheap

Coming to Fujifilm X-T3 in 2018 and breaks the 2.5K USD barrier?

If the rumors are true and reading between the lines and just a guess on my part - I foresee a battle between a Sony A6700 and Fuji X-T3 sharing the same sensor.

Of course, Sony better start releasing some APS-C sized lenses if it wants to have a chance in that battle. Unless they drastically undercut Fujifilm in pricing of the rumored camera bodies...

I highly doubt the A6700 and X-T3 will use the same sensor. The X-T3 will most likely(and sadly) still use an X-trans sensor.

If however against all odds the X-T3 would use a bayer sensor, I would cry of happiness.

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scst48 Contributing Member • Posts: 871
Re: Stacked sensor tech coming to APC-S sized sensors (rumored X-T3)?

bemeta wrote:

Canadianguy wrote:

Of course, Sony better start releasing some APS-C sized lenses if it wants to have a chance in that battle. Unless they drastically undercut Fujifilm in pricing of the rumored camera bodies...

As we are in the Fuji-section of this forum I just hope Fuji will update some of the older lenses (the 35/1.4 and 56/1.2 for example) and release some new APS-C lenses.

I am sure they upgrade the old lenses but it would be really advantegeous if they open the mount for Sigma, Tamron and others

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Stefan

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OP Canadianguy Senior Member • Posts: 2,369
Re: X-Trans not a sensor tech - just a CFA on top of whatever sensor they pick
10

X-Trans isn't a sensor - its just a filter put onto of a sensor to allow it to see in colour.

So yes - Fujifilm will most likely keep using the X-Tran CFA instead of a Bayer CFA but they can still share the same sensor as Sony.

JayPhizzt wrote:

Canadianguy wrote:

So the latest rumors (source: fuji rumors) point to the X-T3 getting a stacked sensor with on board memory to reduce rolling shutter and for fast frame rates without blackouts...

It debuted in 1" sensors for the Sony RX100 line in 2015 and was not cheap

It debuted in 35mm sensors in the Sony A9 in 2017 and was not cheap

Coming to Fujifilm X-T3 in 2018 and breaks the 2.5K USD barrier?

If the rumors are true and reading between the lines and just a guess on my part - I foresee a battle between a Sony A6700 and Fuji X-T3 sharing the same sensor.

Of course, Sony better start releasing some APS-C sized lenses if it wants to have a chance in that battle. Unless they drastically undercut Fujifilm in pricing of the rumored camera bodies...

I highly doubt the A6700 and X-T3 will use the same sensor. The X-T3 will most likely(and sadly) still use an X-trans sensor.

If however against all odds the X-T3 would use a bayer sensor, I would cry of happiness.

rwbaron Forum Pro • Posts: 14,332
Re: Stacked sensor tech coming to APC-S sized sensors (rumored X-T3)?
4

JayPhizzt wrote:

Canadianguy wrote:

So the latest rumors (source: fuji rumors) point to the X-T3 getting a stacked sensor with on board memory to reduce rolling shutter and for fast frame rates without blackouts...

It debuted in 1" sensors for the Sony RX100 line in 2015 and was not cheap

It debuted in 35mm sensors in the Sony A9 in 2017 and was not cheap

Coming to Fujifilm X-T3 in 2018 and breaks the 2.5K USD barrier?

If the rumors are true and reading between the lines and just a guess on my part - I foresee a battle between a Sony A6700 and Fuji X-T3 sharing the same sensor.

Of course, Sony better start releasing some APS-C sized lenses if it wants to have a chance in that battle. Unless they drastically undercut Fujifilm in pricing of the rumored camera bodies...

I highly doubt the A6700 and X-T3 will use the same sensor. The X-T3 will most likely(and sadly) still use an X-trans sensor.

If however against all odds the X-T3 would use a bayer sensor, I would cry of happiness.

For clarification the "sensors" (underlying silicon) could be the same but have different CFA overlays, one being Bayer and the other X-Trans. I doubt though that Sony would sell their latest, greatest APS C sensor to Fuji at the same time Sony was using it in their flagship APS C body. For that reason it may be in Fuji's best interest to part company with Sony as apparently has Nikon as I believe Nikon has reduced their reliance on Sony for sensors. This was bound to happen as Sony becomes more of a player and competitor in the camera market.

It doesn't matter to me as long as Fuji doesn't source sensors from Canon. 

Bob

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scst48 Contributing Member • Posts: 871
Re: Stacked sensor tech coming to APC-S sized sensors (rumored X-T3)?
2

rwbaron wrote:

JayPhizzt wrote:

Canadianguy wrote:

So the latest rumors (source: fuji rumors) point to the X-T3 getting a stacked sensor with on board memory to reduce rolling shutter and for fast frame rates without blackouts...

It debuted in 1" sensors for the Sony RX100 line in 2015 and was not cheap

It debuted in 35mm sensors in the Sony A9 in 2017 and was not cheap

Coming to Fujifilm X-T3 in 2018 and breaks the 2.5K USD barrier?

If the rumors are true and reading between the lines and just a guess on my part - I foresee a battle between a Sony A6700 and Fuji X-T3 sharing the same sensor.

Of course, Sony better start releasing some APS-C sized lenses if it wants to have a chance in that battle. Unless they drastically undercut Fujifilm in pricing of the rumored camera bodies...

I highly doubt the A6700 and X-T3 will use the same sensor. The X-T3 will most likely(and sadly) still use an X-trans sensor.

If however against all odds the X-T3 would use a bayer sensor, I would cry of happiness.

For clarification the "sensors" (underlying silicon) could be the same but have different CFA overlays, one being Bayer and the other X-Trans. I doubt though that Sony would sell their latest, greatest APS C sensor to Fuji at the same time Sony was using it in their flagship APS C body. For that reason it may be in Fuji's best interest to part company with Sony as apparently has Nikon as I believe Nikon has reduced their reliance on Sony for sensors. This was bound to happen as Sony becomes more of a player and competitor in the camera market.

It doesn't matter to me as long as Fuji doesn't source sensors from Canon.

Bob

We talk about a core component and I really hope that Fuji could avoid being „me too“ and disconnect from Sony.

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Stefan

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Batdude
Batdude Senior Member • Posts: 4,380
Re: Stacked sensor tech coming to APC-S sized sensors (rumored X-T3)?
4

Canadianguy wrote:

So the latest rumors (source: fuji rumors) point to the X-T3 getting a stacked sensor with on board memory to reduce rolling shutter and for fast frame rates without blackouts...

It debuted in 1" sensors for the Sony RX100 line in 2015 and was not cheap

It debuted in 35mm sensors in the Sony A9 in 2017 and was not cheap

Coming to Fujifilm X-T3 in 2018 and breaks the 2.5K USD barrier?

$2.5K for a Fuji APS-C camera with no IBIS?  No way jose.  With IBIS maybe, but the main question here will be how much will (sony) be charging for the A6700, what, $1499?  The A7III and other fantastic FF are already under $2K.  Some major changes in price have been happening around here so I hope the XT3 will not have that high price tag.

In the end the question for me would be for what application is the XT3 aimed for? Is this the camera that will have an application for FPS action/BIF stuff?  I don't need a camera for that application but what I need is a low light beast so something like this would be completely useless for me.  I'm not an expert on this and I'm really not too familiar with this and the only thing I know is that the sony A9 and the D850 have this stacked sensor for fast speed, right?  Can this stacked sensors be good for low light as well?

If the rumors are true and reading between the lines and just a guess on my part - I foresee a battle between a Sony A6700 and Fuji X-T3 sharing the same sensor.

Of course, Sony better start releasing some APS-C sized lenses if it wants to have a chance in that battle. Unless they drastically undercut Fujifilm in pricing of the rumored camera bodies...

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Not you
Not you Regular Member • Posts: 145
That is TBD

I'll believe it when I see it.

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OP Canadianguy Senior Member • Posts: 2,369
Re: Rumour added to anther rumour
1

Doug Pardee wrote:

Canadianguy wrote:

If the rumors are true and reading between the lines and just a guess on my part - I foresee a battle between a Sony A6700 and Fuji X-T3 sharing the same sensor.

That assumes that the X-T3 would use a Sony sensor. There's a lot of buzz (not to be confused with facts) that TowerJazz might be supplying the new sensors.

The rumor of Towerjazz supplying the new sensor would shoot down this rumor as Towerjazz doesn't have a stacked sensor plan - they have a BSI sensor plant - at least according to this news release.

http://www.towerjazz.com/prs/2017/1030.html

Of course, they may have acquired a new plant since then but that would be another rumor to add to the Fuji rumor story.

OP Canadianguy Senior Member • Posts: 2,369
Re: BSI is not the same as stacked sensor tech

Batdude wrote:

Canadianguy wrote:

So the latest rumors (source: fuji rumors) point to the X-T3 getting a stacked sensor with on board memory to reduce rolling shutter and for fast frame rates without blackouts...

It debuted in 1" sensors for the Sony RX100 line in 2015 and was not cheap

It debuted in 35mm sensors in the Sony A9 in 2017 and was not cheap

Coming to Fujifilm X-T3 in 2018 and breaks the 2.5K USD barrier?

$2.5K for a Fuji APS-C camera with no IBIS? No way jose. With IBIS maybe, but the main question here will be how much will (sony) be charging for the A6700, what, $1499? The A7III and other fantastic FF are already under $2K. Some major changes in price have been happening around here so I hope the XT3 will not have that high price tag.

In the end the question for me would be for what application is the XT3 aimed for? Is this the camera that will have an application for FPS action/BIF stuff? I don't need a camera for that application but what I need is a low light beast so something like this would be completely useless for me. I'm not an expert on this and I'm really not too familiar with this and the only thing I know is that the sony A9 and the D850 have this stacked sensor for fast speed, right? Can this stacked sensors be good for low light as well?

I just guessed at the price - that wasn't part of the original rumour but stacked sensors are not cheap to manufacture.

Its the next step after BSI tech. I believe that D850 is BSI - not stacked like the A9 sensor.

The use case for stacked - rolling shutter issues - it pretty much eliminates it - it makes E-shutter useful for fast action shooting.

The latest Sony rumor has the A7sIII going to a stacked sensor to reduce rolling shutter in video. That maybe what you are after - low pixel sensor designed for low light use.

sensorless Regular Member • Posts: 178
Its advantage Fujifilm for now!
1

Its advantage Fuji for two reasons:

1. Sony may want to compensate the sales they lost to Tower Jazz by bringing Fuji on board to their latest stacked APS-C sensors.

2. Sony does not really see Fuji as a competitor as of now! Fuji's sale volume much lower than Sony's which mostly capitalises on FF market.

3. Sony needs a mirrorless partner to help flash out dating DSLR technology out of the mainstream market.

drewmey123 Regular Member • Posts: 248
Re: Stacked sensor tech coming to APC-S sized sensors (rumored X-T3)?
1

Canadianguy wrote:

So the latest rumors (source: fuji rumors) point to the X-T3 getting a stacked sensor with on board memory to reduce rolling shutter and for fast frame rates without blackouts...

It debuted in 1" sensors for the Sony RX100 line in 2015 and was not cheap

It debuted in 35mm sensors in the Sony A9 in 2017 and was not cheap

Coming to Fujifilm X-T3 in 2018 and breaks the 2.5K USD barrier?

If the rumors are true and reading between the lines and just a guess on my part - I foresee a battle between a Sony A6700 and Fuji X-T3 sharing the same sensor.

Of course, Sony better start releasing some APS-C sized lenses if it wants to have a chance in that battle. Unless they drastically undercut Fujifilm in pricing of the rumored camera bodies...

If this is the case, I won't be too happy. I think I would feel somewhat pigeon holed with no option that fits me.

I like landscape photography and travel photography. I went with Fuji because I value smaller lenses more than just the smaller bodies that you get get with FF Sony. (There are other small reasons but that is the core of the reason). Having both small is very nice for landscape, travel and street photography.

If this rumor proves true, my upgrade options will be:

  1. An X-H1 that has the same sensor and would therefore not offer substantial improvement to my Landscape interests. It would offer some small improvements to my travel and street photography interests via the IBIS.
  2. An X-T3 that has a faster readout which does nothing for my photographic interests. Likely no IBIS to help improve handheld travel and street photography.

Rolling shutter, frame rate, and less black out do nothing for me. IBIS is helpful but hardly upgrade worthy (from my personal standpoint). I would much rather prefer a 30MP sensor with about 1/2 to 1 stop more DR which seems plausible given the age of the X-T2/X-H1/a6300/a6500 sensor.

To each his own of course. Maybe time to start practicing my handheld super resolution techniques and upgrade my computer

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rwbaron Forum Pro • Posts: 14,332
Re: Rumour added to anther rumour

Canadianguy wrote:

Doug Pardee wrote:

Canadianguy wrote:

If the rumors are true and reading between the lines and just a guess on my part - I foresee a battle between a Sony A6700 and Fuji X-T3 sharing the same sensor.

That assumes that the X-T3 would use a Sony sensor. There's a lot of buzz (not to be confused with facts) that TowerJazz might be supplying the new sensors.

The rumor of Towerjazz supplying the new sensor would shoot down this rumor as Towerjazz doesn't have a stacked sensor plan - they have a BSI sensor plant - at least according to this news release.

http://www.towerjazz.com/prs/2017/1030.html

Of course, they may have acquired a new plant since then but that would be another rumor to add to the Fuji rumor story.

Am I reading this correctly? They reference plant capabilities in "mm" but I think that should be "nm" unless there's something I don't understand. If it should be "nm" then those lines seem pretty coarse by standards of even several years ago as I remember reading the tech was at sub 100 nm back then.

Confused or did they buy a bunch of old Canon fab lines.

Bob

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Batdude
Batdude Senior Member • Posts: 4,380
Re: Stacked sensor tech coming to APC-S sized sensors (rumored X-T3)?
1

drewmey123 wrote:

Canadianguy wrote:

So the latest rumors (source: fuji rumors) point to the X-T3 getting a stacked sensor with on board memory to reduce rolling shutter and for fast frame rates without blackouts...

It debuted in 1" sensors for the Sony RX100 line in 2015 and was not cheap

It debuted in 35mm sensors in the Sony A9 in 2017 and was not cheap

Coming to Fujifilm X-T3 in 2018 and breaks the 2.5K USD barrier?

If the rumors are true and reading between the lines and just a guess on my part - I foresee a battle between a Sony A6700 and Fuji X-T3 sharing the same sensor.

Of course, Sony better start releasing some APS-C sized lenses if it wants to have a chance in that battle. Unless they drastically undercut Fujifilm in pricing of the rumored camera bodies...

If this is the case, I won't be too happy. I think I would feel somewhat pigeon holed with no option that fits me.

I like landscape photography and travel photography. I went with Fuji because I value smaller lenses more than just the smaller bodies that you get get with FF Sony. (There are other small reasons but that is the core of the reason). Having both small is very nice for landscape, travel and street photography.

If this rumor proves true, my upgrade options will be:

  1. An X-H1 that has the same sensor and would therefore not offer substantial improvement to my Landscape interests. It would offer some small improvements to my travel and street photography interests via the IBIS.
  2. An X-T3 that has a faster readout which does nothing for my photographic interests. Likely no IBIS to help improve handheld travel and street photography.

Rolling shutter, frame rate, and less black out do nothing for me. IBIS is helpful but hardly upgrade worthy (from my personal standpoint). I would much rather prefer a 30MP sensor with about 1/2 to 1 stop more DR which seems plausible given the age of the X-T2/X-H1/a6300/a6500 sensor.

+1

It looks like Fuji is simply not capable and does not have the technology to produce a high ISO camera yet, as some of us need.  If the XT3 is aimed more towards photographers that want fast FPS then I will have to skip this camera model once again and I do zero video work so the XH1 is also useless for me as well.  Looks like I'm going to have to stick with my pentax for a lot longer.

To each his own of course. Maybe time to start practicing my handheld super resolution techniques and upgrade my computer

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bemeta Regular Member • Posts: 352
Re: Stacked sensor tech coming to APC-S sized sensors (rumored X-T3)?

scst48 wrote:

I am sure they upgrade the old lenses but it would be really advantegeous if they open the mount for Sigma, Tamron and others

Well, they have/had opened it to Zeiss, the Zeiss lenses even have a spot on Fujifilm's website, in the roadmap and even with demo photos (12 , 32 , 50 ). Maybe Zeiss will eventually develop some more lenses in the Touit line, if Fuji and/or Sony sell more APS-cameras

If it is smart to maybe even pay Sigma, Tamron and others to bring lenses to X-mount, possibly. If Fuji would get a larger market share (which of course could be helped by more (third party) lenses being available for X-mount), they will come to X-mount anyway, and maybe Samyang will develop autofocus lenses for X-mount as well... At least there are more and more cheap manual focus lenses for X-mount

But I am a bit disappointed to see not more than two MK and two XF lenses on Fuji's roadmap for 2018 (and beyond).

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