A contrary view of the Pixel 2

The LG G4/G5 can capture more details because they have more megapixels.

I don't have a Pixel 2, but I have a Google Nexus 5x and I have seen several sample images of the Pixel 2 including the dpreview studio comparison: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60792324

So my Nexus 5x experience is that the noise reduction is not good when HDR+ is off and the luminance noise reduction can be a bit too much in low light conditions. Otherwise the noise reduction is very good in my opinion, in particular the color noise reduction. The dpreview studio comparison of the Pixel 2 looks good. And in particular LG (for example LG V20) uses noise reduction that looks like watercolors.

By the way I can't judge the posted image because it has been edited and it is even without exif data.

hiker_jon wrote:

I use OpenCamera to save dng, then SnapSeed to develop the dng, or RawTherapee on my computer. A related issue is that Android does not have an intelligent way to handle dng's.

What does "an intelligent way to handle dng's." mean? Can you break down the issue, or issues, you are having?

Thank you
Russell

Hi,

The difference in megapixels (16 in the G5 vs 12 in the Pixel 2) will make a small difference, but not a huge difference.  In my post I am comparing the out of camera jpeg with the raw data.  Google greatly smooths the  colors in the jpeg image. Here is the original Pixel 2 image with exif.  My computer program is a plugin to ImageJ which does not preserve exif (ImageJ is a tool for biomedical researchers and so is not oriented towards consumer cameras).

Original Pixel 2 image before enhancement.

hiker_jon wrote:

Hi,

The difference in megapixels (16 in the G5 vs 12 in the Pixel 2) will make a small difference, but not a huge difference. In my post I am comparing the out of camera jpeg with the raw data. Google greatly smooths the colors in the jpeg image. Here is the original Pixel 2 image with exif. My computer program is a plugin to ImageJ which does not preserve exif (ImageJ is a tool for biomedical researchers and so is not oriented towards consumer cameras).

Original Pixel 2 image before enhancement.

I just looked at the exif. You have turned HDR+ off! You may not do this. When you turn off HDR+, you also turn off Google's general software image processing and instead a conventional image processor does the work. There is a huge difference in image quality when you turn HDR+ off. You should never do this.

Hi Russel,

Using dng's on Android is a huge pain for me.  Perhaps I just haven't found the right tools.  On the Pixel 2 I have found Open Camera that can save the dng.  It does so by putting them into the same directory (opencamera) as the normal jpeg.  If I want to develop the dng using SnapSeed I need to use a gallery app to pick the dng.  But the gallery apps don't see the dngs just the jpegs.  If I choose a jpeg that is associated with a dng then SnapSeed seems to choose the dng, but this is not always clear.  If there is no jpeg with the dng then gallery apps will not be able to choose it.  I have tried using a file manager app to choose the dng from within SnapSeed, but the one I use, ES File Explorer, doesn't show thumbnails for dngs.  I think dngs should be treated just like images with thumbnails, but with a special dng designation.  If I decide to open a dng then an app that can develop the it should open with it.

Actually I have tried using ES File Explorer to browse the directory and select a dng then open with SnapSeed.  This has a bug and the raw data does not load properly.

Jon

You don't need a special app. I have an old version of Snapseed (I haven't updated it). Just open Snapseed and then tap on "Open" and then tap on the Google photos icon and then choose the dng. Don't try to open the dng via the the sharing function.

By the way Adobe Lightroom mobile is better and it is free. Only some additional features are not free.

Adobe Lightroom doesn't work for me (At least the free version).  I want to develop the dng into a jpeg that I can use in my app.  Lightroom doesn't do that.  I think the free version won't save to a folder.

Of course the free Adobe Lightroom app can export to jpg. They are saved in a folder called "Adobe Lightroom".

By the way did you see my other post regarding the image quality? According to the exif, HDR+ was not active which explains the bad image quality.

Hi,

I think you are right about Adobe Lightroom, I just am not familiar with it.

How did you see the HDR in the exif?  My tools don't show it.

The HDR issue may be because the camera is new and Open Camera does not have any special controls for it.  My app uses the standard Android camera interface.  If I choose the Google camera it does not have any controls for HDR.  It may be that that interface does not allow HDR.  For the usual camera app I had HDR on, but not shown on the top set of icons. I will do some tests to see if HDR makes a difference.  But of course the standard camera app for the Pixel 2 is very restrictive.  You can't even set the ISO.

When you use a 3rd party app, then HDR+ is often not available. Only recently Google made it possible for 3rd party apps to use HDR+ (google "Pixel Visual Core") in auto mode (not manual mode).

The standard Google camera app uses HDR+ by default. It's possible to disable HDR+ via the camera app settings though. But even when HDR+ is on, it doesn't use HDR+ for burst shots. So for the best image quality don't take burst shots or choose "HDR+ enhanced" (camera app settings).

By the way you can see via the exif tag "Software" whether the image used HDR+. Not every exif viewer shows that, but for example Windows shows it. The "Software" tag must have a value that begins with "HDR+" , not "walleye-user".

hiker_jon wrote:

You might try Camera Super. Forget the supported camera in the description, and just try it to see if it works and if it does what you need for your app.Its output is jpg.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.anforapps.camerasuperpixel&hl=en

Using dng's on Android is a huge pain for me. Perhaps I just haven't found the right tools. On the Pixel 2 I have found Open Camera that can save the dng.

It's a great app.

It does so by putting them into the same directory (opencamera) as the normal jpeg.

Did you turn on, Use Storage Acceess Framework, in OpenCamera? I think this sets up all the permissions so other apps can use the files.

If I want to develop the dng using SnapSeed I need to use a gallery app to pick the dng.

Snapseed sees the DNG made by OpenCamera on my phone in its Open dialog.

But the gallery apps don't see the dngs just the jpegs.

It should just work if using the Storage Framwork.

If I choose a jpeg that is associated with a dng then SnapSeed seems to choose the dng, but this is not always clear.

Snapseed sees both the jpg and DNG files on my phone.

If there is no jpeg with the dng then gallery apps will not be able to choose it. I have tried using a file manager app to choose the dng from within SnapSeed, but the one I use, ES File Explorer, doesn't show thumbnails for dngs. I think dngs should be treated just like images with thumbnails, but with a special dng designation. If I decide to open a dng then an app that can develop the it should open with it.

You might try Camera Roll as a gallery replacement.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=us.koller.cameraroll&hl=en

Thank you
Russell

Hi Russel,

Thanks for the tips.  Camera roll sees the raws and dng's.  If you try to edit a dng then Lightroom is not on the list.  Snapseed is, but doesn't work in this mode.

I have yet to find a camera app that will save dng's when called from my app.

hiker_jon wrote:

Hi Russel,

Thanks for the tips. Camera roll sees the raws and dng's. If you try to edit a dng then Lightroom is not on the list. Snapseed is, but doesn't work in this mode.

I'm using the paid version of PhotoMate R3. DPR has it at US $6.50 for the paid version.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.tssystems.photomate3&hl=en

https://www.dpreview.com/news/6339315106/photo-mate-raw-conversion-app-for-android-goes-freemium

I have yet to find a camera app that will save dng's when called from my app.

Since OpenCamera is opensource, maybe contact the OpenCamera developers and ask what needs to be done to allow your app to request raw output?

Thank you
Russell

Here is an enhancement from my app of a HDR+ image. I t looks much better, but not as good as the image created from dng. My app (and probably any app that uses the standard Android camera interface) cannot use HDR+. I hope Google will fix this. The images are much better using HDR+.

hiker_jon wrote:

Here is an enhancement from my app of a HDR+ image. I t looks much better, but not as good as the image created from dng. My app (and probably any app that uses the standard Android camera interface) cannot use HDR+. I hope Google will fix this. The images are much better using HDR+.

Recently Google made it possible for developers to access HDR+ in auto mode for 3rd party apps. Just read about "Pixel Visual Core". Though possibly even then the results could be slightly worse than Google's app.

PhotoFactor wrote:

noisephotographer wrote:

When you use a 3rd party app, then HDR+ is often not available. Only recently Google made it possible for 3rd party apps to use HDR+ (google "Pixel Visual Core") in auto mode (not manual mode).

The standard Google camera app uses HDR+ by default. It's possible to disable HDR+ via the camera app settings though. But even when HDR+ is on, it doesn't use HDR+ for burst shots. So for the best image quality don't take burst shots or choose "HDR+ enhanced" (camera app settings).

By the way you can see via the exif tag "Software" whether the image used HDR+. Not every exif viewer shows that, but for example Windows shows it. The "Software" tag must have a value that begins with "HDR+" , not "walleye-user".

You are assuming HDR+ is desirable. Is the "smoothing" caused by NOT using HDR+, or by using it? The best solution for the OP depends upon the answer to that question.

I had assumed that HDR+ modified the colors and smoothed them for the more desirable typical photo results. If true that would mean you would want HDR+ off. But you might be correct.

You haven't read the entire thread. I don't repeat everything twice.

noisephotographer wrote:

Recently Google made it possible for developers to access HDR+ in auto mode for 3rd party apps. Just read about "Pixel Visual Core". Though possibly even then the results could be slightly worse than Google's app.

Hi,

That is great, but for me and for most app writers that use a camera incidentally trying to write a camera app would be insanely difficult.  We have to depend on Android to make available a camera interface and we are limited by that.

I don't like the way Pixel 2 smooths the colors in non-HDR+ images.  It looks to me that they smooth heavily then sharpen.  If anyone knows what they actually do (and why they think it improves the image) I'd like to know.  Samsung's smoothing is similar.  I'll bet that Google copied the Samsung technique.  Here is my dng image after smoothing just the colors using a Gaussian mask.  I like it better than the Pixel 2 smoothing in my original post.

Maybe DPReview should address this issue.  They could use my app to see what is really going on in the colors.

Enhancement of Pixel 2 image from dng that has had the colors smoothed using Gaussian mask.