The truth about SS & sharp images

Almost all cameras experience some form of SS under certain circumstances.

I was first made aware of it when I came across a Nikon shooter draped bodily over a long lens mounted on a tripod so sturdy that I could not have lifted it. Of course I asked him why he was shooting like that and he said he was trying to reduce mirror slap when activating the shutter.

I bought a Sony A77 with a fixed translucent mirror and always used the electronic first curtain, yet I have from it some of the worst examples of SS that I have ever seen!

My Panasonic gx7 would produce SS easily with mk1 14-140 (ruined masses of shots). And the flash sync was a lowly 1/160.

Next was my dream camera the GX8. With a seriously fast shutter and a flash sync of 1/250 fabulous and just what I needed.

Like all cameras and tools nothing is ever perfect and it does have some caveats. However I quickly learned how to get the best out of it, which included finding out which lenses performed best with it to ensure I didn't lose any images through SS. .... And guess what, surprisingly when I am forced to use the mechanical shutter due to flickering LED lighting, I can guarantee that 100% of the time when using my Olympus lenses I never get any SS with it at all !

It is well known that the lightweight Panasonic 14-140mk2 can misbehave when using mechanical shutter, which is easily solved by avoidance.

So Whose lenses should we use for performance and sharp shots...

Interestingly I have repeatedly found that for really sharp action images the Olympus 40-150 f2.8 pro lens performs so much better on the GX8 than it does on the Olympus em1-mk2 !

Conversely - and this is getting weird - the Panasonic 100-400 performs better and produces sharper images on the  Olympus em1-mk2 than it does on the Panasonic GX8 or Gx7 !

How do I know all this, unfortunately I found out the expensive way by spending the kids inheritance and my pension

A final note: sadly although many suggest Panasonic 'upgraded' the 'faulty' GX8 shutter, for my photography it was a huge downgrade. We lost the fast shutter speed and also the fast flash sync speed, yet strangely so many seem thrilled about that ?

it seems fairly obvious that some cameras and camera/lens combinations suffer more than others

Adrian Harris wrote:

It is well known that the lightweight Panasonic 14-140mk2 can misbehave when using mechanical shutter, which is easily solved by avoidance.

And miss out on the one lens solution preferred by many users.

Adrian Harris wrote:

Almost all cameras experience some form of SS under certain circumstances.

I bought a Sony A77 with a fixed translucent mirror and always used the electronic first curtain, yet I have from it some of the worst examples of SS that I have ever seen!

That's weird. I've never seen anything resembling SS when using my A57 or A77ii, and I don't think I've seen any SS related complaints on Sony forums or in reviews of the cameras.

My Panasonic gx7 would produce SS easily with mk1 14-140 (ruined masses of shots). And the flash sync was a lowly 1/160.

I had serious issues with shutter shock when using Panasonic's 100-300mm on my GX7. Switching to electronic shutter, or putting it on my GM1 for the same shot, made a big difference to sharpness at the same shutter speed.

That's actually the first time I'd encountered the issue, despite having used DSLRs previously - probably because of the lighter construction of both the GX7 and the 100-300.

I'm not sure what you mean about its flash sync though. The GX7's 1/8000s mechanical shutter is capable of 1/320s when using the pop-up flash (including when using it to trigger an external flash), or 1/250s with an external flash on the hotshoe. It actually slightly betters the GX8 and still has a definite advantage over the new GX9.

A final note: sadly although many suggest Panasonic 'upgraded' the 'faulty' GX8 shutter, for my photography it was a huge downgrade. We lost the fast shutter speed and also the fast flash sync speed, yet strangely so many seem thrilled about that ?

I think we're definitely in the minority here, but I'd have preferred the GX9 to keep the old shutter too, shutter shock issues and all.

Most of the lenses I use don't suffer from it and electronic shutter is usually an acceptable solution when SS does become an issue. Losing out on 1/8000s and faster flash sync isn't the end of the world, but for me it's more of a limitation than shutter shock.

That said, I don't blame people for being annoyed when they bought a new GX7/8 and a useful looking zoom from the same company, only to get blurred images from the combination. Not everyone reads camera forums to find out about issues that they need to work around. I don't think the dismissive attitude and accusations of user error I saw in response to SS complaints on this forum were very helpful either.

Keit ll wrote:

It seems that some still think it legitimate to campaign for the GX8 When apparently Pansonic have recognised its faults. It may be Ok to sooth the feelings of those who bought one but we really shouldn't go on trying to persuade prospective buyers that SS is not a real issue.

Panasonic recognised the problem & corrected it in later models.

The fact that some other cameras also have similar issues is a bit of a red herring...

There are so blind as those that choose not to see.

This post is not about the GX8 although it is included. It is about good workmen learning to use their tools properly to get the best images possible.

If buying a camera with certain specifications suits your needs then go for it, but there is no free lunch.

Regarding the GX8, Panasonic has certainly tried to appease those who griped that they were unable to use the gx8 to good effect, by introducing the auto shutter workaround and that suited many.

But moving on, for my own use what was lost in launching their newer slower shutter design I feel was a step that took away more than it gave.

Personally I would have loved Panasonic to have  addressed far more serious camera issues, such as their slow e-shutter readout which causes skew, and also the fact that you can't shoot for longer than 1 second with e-shutter.

These are I believe, issues that affect all their cameras.

Fortunately I also shoot with an Olympus which has a very fast e-shutter. But that camera also has some faults, however I just work around them.

Adrian Harris wrote:

Almost all cameras experience some form of SS under certain circumstances.

What's SS?

Thebigbird wrote:

Adrian Harris wrote:

Almost all cameras experience some form of SS under certain circumstances.

What's SS?

Shutter Shock

SteveY80 wrote:

Adrian Harris wrote:

Almost all cameras experience some form of SS under certain circumstances.

I bought a Sony A77 with a fixed translucent mirror and always used the electronic first curtain, yet I have from it some of the worst examples of SS that I have ever seen!

That's weird. I've never seen anything resembling SS when using my A57 or A77ii, and I don't think I've seen any SS related complaints on Sony forums or in reviews of the cameras.

Although it wasn't a regular issue, unfortunately I had a few important shoots really messed up due to SS using my A77. Fortunately out of the many shots I took I did manage in both cases to salvage one from each location that were just OK for use. (I nearly cried at the time).

They were both very low light dusk/night shoots and accordingly very slow shutter speed.

I think I probably still have a couple, as I often keep a problem shot for reference. The issue certainly wasn't slight, it was more like double vision!

My Panasonic gx7 would produce SS easily with mk1 14-140 (ruined masses of shots). And the flash sync was a lowly 1/160.

I had serious issues with shutter shock when using Panasonic's 100-300mm on my GX7. Switching to electronic shutter, or putting it on my GM1 for the same shot, made a big difference to sharpness at the same shutter speed.

That's actually the first time I'd encountered the issue, despite having used DSLRs previously - probably because of the lighter construction of both the GX7 and the 100-300.

I didn't have the 100-300, but using the Olympus 75-300 mk2 on the gx7 was pretty much faultless.

I don't have a lot of faith in Panasonics early OIS implementation, ... Which of course wasn't needed with the Gx series cameras.

I'm not sure what you mean about its flash sync though. The GX7's 1/8000s mechanical shutter is capable of 1/320s when using the pop-up flash (including when using it to trigger an external flash), or 1/250s with an external flash on the hotshoe. It actually slightly betters the GX8 and still has a definite advantage over the new GX9.

My mistake, you are correct, the fast sync on the gx7 was in fact one of the deciding factors for me purchasing it. My older G1 only had 1/160.

A final note: sadly although many suggest Panasonic 'upgraded' the 'faulty' GX8 shutter, for my photography it was a huge downgrade. We lost the fast shutter speed and also the fast flash sync speed, yet strangely so many seem thrilled about that ?

I think we're definitely in the minority here, but I'd have preferred the GX9 to keep the old shutter too, shutter shock issues and all.

Most of the lenses I use don't suffer from it and electronic shutter is usually an acceptable solution when SS does become an issue. Losing out on 1/8000s and faster flash sync isn't the end of the world, but for me it's more of a limitation than shutter shock.

That said, I don't blame people for being annoyed when they bought a new GX7/8 and a useful looking zoom from the same company, only to get blurred images from the combination. Not everyone reads camera forums to find out about issues that they need to work around. I don't think the dismissive attitude and accusations of user error I saw in response to SS complaints on this forum were very helpful either.

Guy Parsons wrote:

I saw exactly the same kind of distortion with a Casio pocket camera doing a burst at 5fps of a slowly moving train. Camera in fixed position. no user slewing or panning involved. Occasional frames slightly misshapen like your rose example.

Also have seen it in videos displayed in TV shows, usually I suspect sourced from things like GoPro cameras.

It must be a feature of CMOS sensors as I've never seen any of that weirdness from my earlier cameras' CCD sensors.

Regards..... Guy

CCD readout times are faster than CMOS, so you get less distortion with movement and electronic shutter.

Andrew

gardenersassistant wrote:

Adrian Harris wrote:

It is well known that the lightweight Panasonic 14-140mk2 can misbehave when using mechanical shutter, which is easily solved by avoidance.

Is this a reference to shutter shock, or other issues too? The reason I ask is that I have just arranged to get a replacement for a new 14-140 mk2 because of a strange issue with it on my G80 and I'm wondering whether this is a known about "feature" of the lens in general rather than a malfunction with this particular sample of the lens. (So I won't be surprised if it happens with the replacement.)

I first noticed it with a single shot but the easiest way to illustrate it is with successive shots captured using aperture bracketing, with one of the shots having a different geometry from the others. They were captured hand-held but I don't believe such lopsided geometric distortions can arise from camera and/or subject movement, especially when the next shot after the distorted one reverts to the previous geometry.

There are three frames in the first two animations, one before and one after the distorted frame. The first two are shown for 1 second, the third for 2 seconds. The third example is only two frames, a normal frame and then a distorted one. Since these were captured as bracketed images they were captured in quick succession at a rate of several per second.

There are another five in this album at Flickr.

Click on Original size beneath the image to see the animation.

Is this one of the misbehaviours that has been discussed previously?

Hi Nick, I am only viewing your flowers via a phone and can't see any issues with your images.

I personally think that the Panasonic 14-140 is a wonderful lens and use it extensively on my gx8, gx7 and em1-mk2 without any problems whatsoever. However it is not a lens that would be on my camera when in situations that may require the use of mechanical shutter, as these for me are normally either very long telephoto or very fast aperture situations. So I would be using different lenses.

One irritating issue that I and friends do get with Panasonic lenses is their stabilisation, which unlike IBIS, always seems to take a brief moment to settle after jerky movement by the photographer. Some are far worse than others, and for me the worst was the early Panasonic 45-200, which could produce all sorts of weird optical effects if you didn't wait before pressing the shutter.

Guy Parsons wrote:

Adrian Harris wrote:

They were both very low light dusk/night shoots and accordingly very slow shutter speed.

Are you sure that you are seeing camera induced shock and not user induced shake at those speeds?

Regards..... Guy

Hi Guy, they were remote triggered and on a tripod, oh and stabilisation was switched off.

I realise that user induced shake is far more common than many may realise - and I learned the hard way.

When on a beach at night I try and prevent people walking within 20feet of my tripod.

And once when in a field at night with a 400mm lens I had a 150 shot panorama ruined by a car driving past on a nearby road, possibly around 60 feet away ... Now that I didn't expect!

So it is possible that something else was going on that I was unaware of as I was in a rail yard, and although I took great care to place the tripod on a concrete slab it doesn't necessarily mean that it was 100% safe.