Extended M series

Now that we are just days away from the new M50 announcement and rumors suggest it would be something new about the sensor, I wonder if Canon will introduce with this camera a higher tier model based on a new enlarged sensor. I say higher tier because contrary to what the model name suggest, there is almost no room for a model in between the M6 and the M100.
Granted, such sensor won't be Full Frame, but larger than the current APS-C, enough to cover the 3 most common aspect ratios. 3:2, 16:9 4:3. A more efficient use of the image circle.

The enlarged sensor major benefits are Lossless Aspect Ratios Crops, all your lenses will capture wider views when using 16:9 in Landscape and wider 4:3 views in Portrait than the current standard sensor.
The other major benefit would be 30 megapixels pictures when using EF lenses, with less crop factor while maintaining the current sensor pixel density, which would make it easier to get shallower DOF.

Would you be interested is such camera if the premium extra to pay is, lets say US $100 ?

justmeMN wrote:

Photato wrote:

there is almost no room for a model in between the M6 and the M100.

The M100 was low-end version of the M6.

I suspect that the M50 will be a low-end version of the M5.

Why is that so? I don't see any relationship of the M6 to the M100, other than the lack of VF but it also lacks a lot of other things like Flash shoe, Mic input, external controls ,etc

The M50 will be called Kiss M in Japan, indicating that it will basically be a "Mirrorless Rebel".

I suspect that the M50 will have the same sensor as the other Ms.

Lets hope is not the case given the fact that the event invitation said Major Mirrorless Event, and is not the FF announcement.

In my view all the M series are lower endish. The M5 is purposely lower than the 80D which has more firmware features.

I'd find ridiculous if Canon unveils yet another crippled M body with not enough variation.

justmeMN wrote:

Photato wrote:

there is almost no room for a model in between the M6 and the M100.

The M100 was low-end version of the M6.

I suspect that the M50 will be a low-end version of the M5.

The M50 will be called Kiss M in Japan, indicating that it will basically be a "Mirrorless Rebel".

I suspect that the M50 will have the same sensor as the other Ms.

+1

I´m still looking to get APS-C resolution beast. At least 32Mpx for 8k stills, but more would be interesting. I think we don´t get either significantly more pixels or larger sensor. It´s Canon, after all...

justmeMN wrote:

Here is my theory of the product differentiation.

M5: has viewfinder, more features of the two, more expensive of the two
M50: has viewfinder, fewer features of the two, less expensive of the two

M6: no viewfinder, more features of the two, more expensive of the two
M100: no viewfinder, fewer features of the two, less expensive of the two

Launch Price (with lens), from Canon press releases

M5 $1,099.00
M6 $899.99
M50
M100 $599.99

Well, I'm not gonna argue about a future product announcement for which there is little or no information.

The main point of this thread is polling about an hypothetical M model and its merits regardless of Canon release it or not.

We will see in a few days if your theory on Canon product strategy was accurate.
And feel free to post a "told you so".
I hope you are wrong though,  because I want to see a higher end M model.

crashpc wrote:

I´m still looking to get APS-C resolution beast. At least 32Mpx for 8k stills, but more would be interesting. I think we don´t get either significantly more pixels or larger sensor. It´s Canon, after all...

The problem with the current APS-C 24Mpx sensor generation is that diffraction is now around f/7.1 so the ideal way up would be to maintain current density but expand the sensor a bit, as described above.
Such body would make a better justification to buy and use EF lenses because you are gaining something. Higher Image Quality.

But agree, more than likely Canon will, once again disappoint.

Photato wrote:

crashpc wrote:

I´m still looking to get APS-C resolution beast. At least 32Mpx for 8k stills, but more would be interesting. I think we don´t get either significantly more pixels or larger sensor. It´s Canon, after all...

The problem with the current APS-C 24Mpx sensor generation is that diffraction is now around f/7.1 so the ideal way up would be to maintain current density but expand the sensor a bit, as described above.

I cannot agree, as the diffraction is not the hard limit solving all issues. If you still can see moire at f/7.1, and if you still need to process images in a way it could hurt the resolution (rotation and some more), you definitely can use higher pixel density. Also, I usually shoot in the f/1.4 to f/5.6 range on my crop camera. So, pixel density is not a limiting factor here at all. Look at Old nokia 1"ish sensor at 42Mpx. If it was at APS-C size, it would totally kill any 32Mpx sensor in real output resolution. it kills many FF sensors  now....

Such body would make a better justification to buy and use EF lenses because you are gaining something. Higher Image Quality.

I would appreciate both. Greater pixel density and APS-H sensor. They could already slap the 120Mpx one they have there... Done

But agree, more than likely Canon will, once again disappoint.

I would bet they do...

crashpc wrote:

Photato wrote:

crashpc wrote:

I´m still looking to get APS-C resolution beast. At least 32Mpx for 8k stills, but more would be interesting. I think we don´t get either significantly more pixels or larger sensor. It´s Canon, after all...

The problem with the current APS-C 24Mpx sensor generation is that diffraction is now around f/7.1 so the ideal way up would be to maintain current density but expand the sensor a bit, as described above.

I cannot agree, as the diffraction is not the hard limit solving all issues. If you still can see moire at f/7.1, and if you still need to process images in a way it could hurt the resolution (rotation and some more), you definitely can use higher pixel density. Also, I usually shoot in the f/1.4 to f/5.6 range on my crop camera. So, pixel density is not a limiting factor here at all. Look at Old nokia 1"ish sensor at 42Mpx. If it was at APS-C size, it would totally kill any 32Mpx sensor in real output resolution. it kills many FF sensors now....

Well, more pixels comes with a price in storage, speed and compromises for video, the current 24Mpix is good enough for me, sensor size is what would make a more noticeable improvement in image quality and lens versatility by using different aspect ratios, totally doable with the current technology by just increasing the sensor size. More pixels are great for zoom/crop, but unfortunately none of the Canon ILC bodies, none, exploit this capability.

Such body would make a better justification to buy and use EF lenses because you are gaining something. Higher Image Quality.

I would appreciate both. Greater pixel density and APS-H sensor. They could already slap the 120Mpx one they have there... Done

But agree, more than likely Canon will, once again disappoint.

I would bet they do...

Photato wrote:

Well, more pixels comes with a price in storage, speed and compromises for video, the current 24Mpix is good enough for me,

This has been repeated to death in every camera age.

Yes, there are happy people feeling it's good enough, and there are these who strive for more.

sensor size is what would make a more noticeable improvement in image quality

I don't see this as choice between A and B. It can be done simultaneously with pixel density. As I wrote, they can just slap that 120Mpx APS-H sensor in there.

and lens versatility by using different aspect ratios, totally doable with the current technology by just increasing the sensor size.

Yes. But sensor size cost money....

More pixels are great for zoom/crop, but unfortunately none of the Canon ILC bodies, none, exploit this capability.

Seems that no company is exploiting anything now.

MikeJ9116 wrote:

I am going to go out on a limb and say the M50 will be a rangefinder type of camera. Part of me doesn't think Canon will stick a cheaper "little M5" in the lineup. I hope it is going to be something out of the norm but don't have a lot of hope that Canon can pull it off.

I wish you were right...

But I am not so sure about it. Anyway I would buy a Canon M-rangefinder any day!

Photato wrote:

Now that we are just days away from the new M50 announcement and rumors suggest it would be something new about the sensor, I wonder if Canon will introduce with this camera a higher tier model based on a new enlarged sensor. I say higher tier because contrary to what the model name suggest, there is almost no room for a model in between the M6 and the M100.

Granted, such sensor won't be Full Frame, but larger than the current APS-C, enough to cover the 3 most common aspect ratios. 3:2, 16:9 4:3. A more efficient use of the image circle.

Canon used to have a sensor between APS-C and FF. It was an APS-H with a 1.3 crop factor. I don’t see them bringing it back.

The enlarged sensor major benefits are Lossless Aspect Ratios Crops, all your lenses will capture wider views when using 16:9 in Landscape and wider 4:3 views in Portrait than the current standard sensor.
The other major benefit would be 30 megapixels pictures when using EF lenses, with less crop factor while maintaining the current sensor pixel density, which would make it easier to get shallower DOF.

Would you be interested is such camera if the premium extra to pay is, lets say US $100 ?

mouzhik wrote:

MikeJ9116 wrote:

I am going to go out on a limb and say the M50 will be a rangefinder type of camera. Part of me doesn't think Canon will stick a cheaper "little M5" in the lineup. I hope it is going to be something out of the norm but don't have a lot of hope that Canon can pull it off.

I wish you were right...

But I am not so sure about it. Anyway I would buy a Canon M-rangefinder any day!

What do you mean by rangefinder? Does it look like Leica M, Fuji X-Pro (EVF+Optical), or Sony A6xxx, which has EVF not at center but on the side? I prefer Fuji style, but Canon would do in Sony style if it made a rangefinder type.

Blue II wrote:

Photato wrote:

Now that we are just days away from the new M50 announcement and rumors suggest it would be something new about the sensor, I wonder if Canon will introduce with this camera a higher tier model based on a new enlarged sensor. I say higher tier because contrary to what the model name suggest, there is almost no room for a model in between the M6 and the M100.

Granted, such sensor won't be Full Frame, but larger than the current APS-C, enough to cover the 3 most common aspect ratios. 3:2, 16:9 4:3. A more efficient use of the image circle.

Canon used to have a sensor between APS-C and FF. It was an APS-H with a 1.3 crop factor. I don’t see them bringing it back.

Why not?
Canon has made in the past custom sensor sizes like the 1.5" for the Powershot G1 X II using the same oversize concept.
One reasonable question would be of economy of scale and that model proves that Canon has no problem running relative small quantity of sensor production.
This oversized sensor looks to me like a very reasonable way to improve the image quality and functionality of the M series without the need of any sophisticated technology and a boost for EF lens sales.

Photato wrote:

Blue II wrote:

Photato wrote:

Now that we are just days away from the new M50 announcement and rumors suggest it would be something new about the sensor, I wonder if Canon will introduce with this camera a higher tier model based on a new enlarged sensor. I say higher tier because contrary to what the model name suggest, there is almost no room for a model in between the M6 and the M100.

Granted, such sensor won't be Full Frame, but larger than the current APS-C, enough to cover the 3 most common aspect ratios. 3:2, 16:9 4:3. A more efficient use of the image circle.

Canon used to have a sensor between APS-C and FF. It was an APS-H with a 1.3 crop factor. I don’t see them bringing it back.

Why not?
Canon has made in the past custom sensor sizes like the 1.5" for the Powershot G1 X II using the same oversize concept.
One reasonable question would be of economy of scale and that model proves that Canon has no problem running relative small quantity of sensor production.
This oversized sensor looks to me like a very reasonable way to improve the image quality and functionality of the M series without the need of any sophisticated technology and a boost for EF lens sales.

The one big problem would be lack of wide angle lenses. The affordable 16-35 would be affected by the 1.3x (or whatever they were to go with), not being truly wide angle and the EF-S 10-18 etc aren’t usable because the image circle wouldn’t be big enough.

There’s the ultra expensive 11-24 but it’s more than a lot of people can/want to spend on a lens.

Blue II wrote:

Photato wrote:

Blue II wrote:

Photato wrote:

Now that we are just days away from the new M50 announcement and rumors suggest it would be something new about the sensor, I wonder if Canon will introduce with this camera a higher tier model based on a new enlarged sensor. I say higher tier because contrary to what the model name suggest, there is almost no room for a model in between the M6 and the M100.

Granted, such sensor won't be Full Frame, but larger than the current APS-C, enough to cover the 3 most common aspect ratios. 3:2, 16:9 4:3. A more efficient use of the image circle.

Canon used to have a sensor between APS-C and FF. It was an APS-H with a 1.3 crop factor. I don’t see them bringing it back.

Why not?
Canon has made in the past custom sensor sizes like the 1.5" for the Powershot G1 X II using the same oversize concept.
One reasonable question would be of economy of scale and that model proves that Canon has no problem running relative small quantity of sensor production.
This oversized sensor looks to me like a very reasonable way to improve the image quality and functionality of the M series without the need of any sophisticated technology and a boost for EF lens sales.

The one big problem would be lack of wide angle lenses. The affordable 16-35 would be affected by the 1.3x (or whatever they were to go with), not being truly wide angle and the EF-S 10-18 etc aren’t usable because the image circle wouldn’t be big enough.

Nope, there are absolutely no compromises or limitations by increasing slightly the M sensor size. It totally fit in the mount and it is a win-win proposition. You actually gain wider or taller field of view with every lens, depending of the aspect ratio chosen. The best part is that with EF lenses you actually gain higher image quality because it would be capturing now a higher resolution image over a larger area. No new EF / EF-M lens adapter is needed either.

There’s the ultra expensive 11-24 but it’s more than a lot of people can/want to spend on a lens.

Again, there is absolutely no need to reconsider lenses.
In fact the EF-M 11-22 becomes even wider (~9mm at wide end) when capturing at 16:9 aspect ratio with the corresponding increase in horizontal pixels. At 3:2 the captured image would be the exact same as the current M5/M6 can produce (24 mpix).